Taikiken vs Karate [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

SaekSan

03-01-2006, 11:58 AM

"Taikiken" to my understanding is the term "Taijiquan" in Japanese.

Interesting clip though, anyone know who these guys are?

It looked like they've never seen combat before... the shuai jiao vs. taijiquan was fun though.

:)

Shaolinlueb

03-01-2006, 12:14 PM

man they always seem to get the good karate guys vs the kung fu guys that try to fight like they do in the movie.

Hephaestus

03-01-2006, 12:46 PM

Taikiken is a Japanese offshoot of Yiquan. Not sure as to the literal translation.

gwa sow

03-01-2006, 02:54 PM

what the h@ll kinda of kung fu was that.

mickey

03-01-2006, 03:40 PM

Greetings,

Firstly, those Taikiken guys are not seasoned fighters.

Secondly, Taikiken has such respect from from Kyukushin, that many of their guys train it.

This is more of the Kyokushin hype that was started in "Fighting Black Kings."
By the way, Sawaii and Oyama were friends.

mickey

Hieronim

03-01-2006, 03:46 PM

Sawaii was the sitting old guy in those clips. Karate called him and his boys out.

GunnedDownAtrocity

03-01-2006, 04:40 PM

the kung fu in those videos made me want to cry. stupid hippy dance bull****. if you took a guy who's never done anything but get ****ing shadow boxing and threw him in the ring you'd get the same results.

the karate dude seemed good though.

GunnedDownAtrocity

03-01-2006, 04:43 PM

Firstly, those Taikiken guys are not seasoned fighters.

ok i missed that, but still .... how seasoned do you have to be to root to the ground and make some attempt at throwing a decent punch. taichi is all about rooting which the karate guy seemed to have a much better understanding of.

i can certainly see unseasoned guys getting whacked upside the head from an inexperienced guard and id not fault them for it ..... everyone's gotta learn ... but their offence seemed really really weak as well.

CFREW

03-01-2006, 10:34 PM

GDA

i fully agree with you dude, they look like they were trying to do sum sort of JKD, when the karate guy threw a bit of a punch at them,

im fully crying, :( why cant they put on a seasoned kung fu practiconer, arghhh

CR*P like this gets me so FRUSTRATED,

arghhhhh

mickey

03-02-2006, 07:03 PM

Greetings,

I believe when you put a fighter with experience against a "scrub" you can get similar, embarassing, results--regardless of style.

Again, there are Kyokushin fighters that seriously train Taikiken. It must have value beyond the standing for them to want to learn it.

GDA, that is not taichi. The art is referred to as I Chuan. It was developed by Wang Shiang Chai. From what I have read, it is a sublimate art of Hsing Yi.

mickey

GunnedDownAtrocity

03-02-2006, 07:28 PM

i hear ya mikey ... im not dissin taikiken as i've never even heard of it i just wish the vids of kung fu guys looking even reasonably decent vs vids like that werent so horribly out of ballance.

fa_jing

03-03-2006, 12:08 PM

tai chi sv shui chiao:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7360397892170796596&q=taiji

Very cool. I wonder if YouKnowWho will comment on this, he's always ripping on Tai Chi.

gfx

03-05-2006, 09:47 AM

If I remember correctly, Taikiken's kanji is 太気拳， ultimate "qi" fist. It's a Japanese offshot of YiQuan 意拳( DaChengQuan 大成拳), YiQuan is an offshot of XingYiQuan. It has nothing to do with TaiJiQuan.

Shaolinlueb

03-05-2006, 10:12 AM

the karate dude seemed good though.

the karate guys always seem good in these video clips.

Phil Redmond

03-05-2006, 11:35 AM

The characters at the bottom of the screen say Tai Gik Kuen (Cantonese), Tai Chi Chuan/TaiJiQuan (Mandarin), Tai Ki Ken (Japanese). So basically Tai Chi people fighting against Kyokushinkai. Some one sais the Karate fighter weren't seasoned. Maybe not in the professional sense. But to attain a Blace Belt in Kyokushinkai you have fought bare knuckle many times.
Phil

Wood Dragon

03-05-2006, 01:45 PM

But to attain a Blace Belt in Kyokushinkai you have fought bare knuckle many times.
Phil

Correct. The -absolute- best thing about Kyokushin is the immediate feedback we get. If you're not on your game, you find out real fast. Everyone spars, knockdown rules. By the time someone gets to Shodan, they are really good, really tough, or both.

I switched over from Shotokan (was a Shodan). A whole 'nother world....

omarthefish

03-05-2006, 10:38 PM

The characters at the bottom of the screen say Tai Gik Kuen (Cantonese), Tai Chi Chuan/TaiJiQuan (Mandarin), Tai Ki Ken (Japanese). So basically Tai Chi people fighting against Kyokushinkai. ...
Phil

Wrong.

A reasonable mistake but still wrong. The characters are Japanese, not Chinese and even in Mandarin they do not say "Tai Chi Chuan" or "Tai Ji Quan". I don't know about Wade Giles but the mandarin for those characters is "Tai Qi Quan" which is, as was pointed out before, Japanese for Yi Quan aka Da Cheng Quan.

The middle character "qi" is not the same character or the same pronounciation as the middle character in "taijiquan". Furthermore, even if it was, although Japanese uses many of the same characters as Chinese, you can't just read the Japanese and ASSume it means the same thing.

There were some famous guys in that clip. The Yi Quan master was there as was some pretty famous Karate guys. It's not my area of expertese though (yi quan or karate lineage) but the names of the faces that were recognized are all here on this short thread:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=vids;action=display;num=1141074549

Phil Redmond

03-06-2006, 05:25 PM

Wrong.

A reasonable mistake but still wrong. The characters are Japanese, not Chinese and even in Mandarin they do not say "Tai Chi Chuan" or "Tai Ji Quan". I don't know about Wade Giles but the mandarin for those characters is "Tai Qi Quan" which is, as was pointed out before, Japanese for Yi Quan aka Da Cheng Quan.

The middle character "qi" is not the same character or the same pronounciation as the middle character in "taijiquan". Furthermore, even if it was, although Japanese uses many of the same characters as Chinese, you can't just read the Japanese and ASSume it means the same thing. . . . .
There are three CHINESE characters in that clip that say Tai Chi Chuan or whatever Romanization you chose to use. I use the Yale University Romanization I learned in college. Sometimes Japanese mix Chinese "Kanji" in with their own characters. That middle character is Chi in Mandarin or Ki in Japanese.
Phil

Edmund

03-07-2006, 12:58 AM

WOW

03-07-2006, 01:18 AM

the characters write ultimate energy fist and not ultimate fist (tai chi chuen). I guess the ultimate internal energy fist is what they are trying to get to.

whatever, they were well out fight by the K guys! probably due to lack training. it was easy to tell the T guys were going to get creamed as they just stood there I guess to summon up their qi/chi :D

anyway, nobody seams to able to block a punh or a kick nor moved side ways :(

omarthefish

03-07-2006, 03:27 AM

There are three CHINESE characters in that clip that say Tai Chi Chuan or whatever Romanization you chose to use. I use the Yale University Romanization I learned in college. Sometimes Japanese mix Chinese "Kanji" in with their own characters. That middle character is Chi in Mandarin or Ki in Japanese.
Phil

I had two points. One has already been repeated. "Taijiquan" is not written that way even in Chinese.

Second point, Japanese uses many of the same characters. Don't assume that because you recognize the characters the phrase or sentence is actually in Chinese or even means the same in Chinese. There are many Japanese phrases you or I can read just based on our Chinese language skills, however, there are also many others that simpy do not mean what you would think they should mean based on the Kanji.

Tai Qi Quan is one of those cases.

And just for the record, look again at the character "qi" or "ki" as you put it. It is in fact, NOT the Chinese character. It's very similar but there is no rice radical. The rice radical has been abreviated to a small "x" because it's Japanese and that's how the Japanese write the character "ki".

Phil Redmond

03-07-2006, 03:38 PM

That's true but Taijiquan, the martial art, is written a little differently.

The Chi character is not used. It's the Ji character.

Hope this link works:
http://www.zhongwen.com/d/183/x165.htm

So if you were reading the Japanese characters, it may be pronounced in Mandarin a bit like Taijiquan but I don't think it's referring to the same art.
I see what you mean. The second character for Chi/Ji is not the same as the one for TCC. If it were then Tai Gik Kune in Cantonese would be Tai Hei Kuen.
Thanks, I stand corrected. :D
Phil

Phil Redmond

03-07-2006, 03:40 PM

I had two points. One has already been repeated. "Taijiquan" is not written that way even in Chinese.

Second point, Japanese uses many of the same characters. Don't assume that because you recognize the characters the phrase or sentence is actually in Chinese or even means the same in Chinese. There are many Japanese phrases you or I can read just based on our Chinese language skills, however, there are also many others that simpy do not mean what you would think they should mean based on the Kanji.

Tai Qi Quan is one of those cases.

And just for the record, look again at the character "qi" or "ki" as you put it. It is in fact, NOT the Chinese character. It's very similar but there is no rice radical. The rice radical has been abreviated to a small "x" because it's Japanese and that's how the Japanese write the character "ki".
Somehow I was looking at the second character and thinking Chi/Hei.
Phil

omarthefish

03-07-2006, 09:01 PM

Well...yeah...it means the same thing in that case. What I meant was that that little detail tips you off that it's Japanese and not Chinese because there ARE a lot of same characters.

There's a joke among Chinese, maybe you've heard it, that Japanese Kanji came about because many moons ago when they ran off with Chinese writing back in whatever dynasty they were being chased by the locals and in their haste they dropped some of the strokes. :D

So you get stuff like "qi" written with a "X" instead of a "米".

But "taiji" is with neither anyways. It's with a 极 rather than a 气 (simplified. I have not complex fonts on my computer)

omarthefish

03-08-2006, 06:41 AM

Just got this from someone who I guess is better acquainted with the background on the clip than I:

Taikiken is NOT Yiquan.

Sawai did study with Wang Xiang Zhai or Yao Zong Xun but crafted his own system out of it when he went back to Japan and handed all of his challengers their asses.

Mas Oyama, Kyokushinkai's founder studied taikiken with Sawai.

When the Japanese team met with Yao Cheng Rong's yiquan fighters they got their asses kicked as well.

So it's not exactly Yiquan either but something close. This guy Sawai AFAIK trained with Wang Xiangzai or some other Yiquan big shot but this is his own art derivative of yi quan that he taught in Japan.

I believe Sawai is the guy instroduced in the beggining of the clip as the founder of "Taikiken".