Stance Training

[sam58]

I have read on this board the importance of stance training. I am interested in static, or non-moving stance training. I think I know what you are trying to accomplish doing this, but would like to hear an explanation by someone else.

Any insights on this would be helpful, i.e. how long to hold a stance, purpose, etc.

Thanks again for all the help,
Sam

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

[Water Dragon]

Go for 2 minutes-GOOD

The stance should be long,deep, and above all proper structure.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[sam58]

Is trying to find the perfect structure the main objective in doing stationary training?

Sam

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

[Kumkuat]

From what I've heard, structure is important. Also when standing, imagine that someone is pushing various parts of your body and try to ground that push.

[Scott Nordeng]

My master once said
"you wan't move fast...move slow"

"you wan't move faster...move slower"

"you wan't move lightning...no move"

twdsn

[Daniel Madar]

Perfect structure is necessary for proper stance training, but it is not the objective.

Stance training promotes leg strength, increases the root, and develops internal power.

[Kumkuat]

How does it develop internal power, Daniel?

[mad taoist]

Holding stances (especially the universal horse stance) activates certain pressure points in the huiyin area (groin and anal area) and it somehow helps with qi. Sorry it sounds vague ! Certain hand postures help with this.

I think stances are very important .. pretty much every kung fu school that I've seen have students who get away with being sloppy, that is have very very bad stances. Leaning in the wrong places, a not straight back, no balance, being the main problems.

Stances are an isometric excercise, rather than isotonic (weights... i hope this part is right). Most of the time, isometrics give better results and more quickly too.

I find after a little bit of horse stance holding, I run faster, jump higher, etc. All good.

'If we do not go within, we go without'.

[Daniel Madar]

Actually I have no idea how it does, but I also don't know why water comes out of the faucet when I turn the handle, but it does.

:)

[count]

First of all, I do not know any stance training that is static or stationary or ie: no moving. There is the microcosmic orbit of the breath and the tension and relaxation of specific muscles going on all the time. Stance training develops internal strength in a number of ways. There is sink and float but it is the transition between stances that develops chan su jin (reeling silk energy) for power issuing. If nothing else, holding a stance for a long period, say 8 breath cycles forces the larger muscle groups to give out and the smaller muscle groups to take over. Then the tendons and then the bones, building strength from the foundation out.f

[Mr. Nemo]

I've been trying to ground a push in my head while I do stances lately as well, with some success.

Also, learning to go low in horse stance and keep the back straight works some muscles in the back as well as the legs.

In any case, stances are much more than just isometric training, though that's one benefit.

[lloyd]

I have never before read a Western explanation to this and it corresponds to the Chinese explanations and is complementary. I think theoretically it has to do with the progress from obvious to hidden energy and then to transforming energy (from ming jin to hua jin), changing bone, tendon and marrow respectively. Or is it?
Are there any materials that you can recommend on stance/pole training (especially the concept of training that goes inwards). If not, I would be interested to hear more on the subject.

[count]

and welcome to KFO. I have only read one article back in the early 80's on stance training when I was beginning to be serious about kung fu, and I don't think I can dig it up. I believe stance training is one of the most important parts of developing strength for issuing power. When I hear kung fu people say things like "you don't fight from those deep stances", I literally cringe. They are the postures for issuing power with maximum force. Each system that I study have different hand positions too. This corresponds to the main energy channels in the body and with the proper twist and untwist of the body open up the channels and allow chi to flow. We have 8 basic stances in kung fu. Some systems that I study like baguazhang and praying mantis have 2 or more additional stances. Actually, a literal translation of the postures would be steps. Ma Bu, which most people call horse stance really means horse step. It is the first stance and we return to ma bu in between doing the other stances on both sides. One of the most common misconceptions of ma bu is to have the knees pushing out instead of in. With the knees out you force close the kua area which you need to open and close during training and issuing power. A good deep ma bu has the thighs parallel to the ground. When we change from ma bu to gung bu (bow and arrow) stance we focus on maintaining the exact same height. This is key in developing chan su jin (reeling silk energy). The feet generate the first twist and the rest of body follows through. We focus on maintaining the same height through all of the stances, except pu tui bu (low stance or leg stretching stance) and then we do not get up but rather pull the leg back into ma bu. We hold each stance for 8 full breaths at least. And I mean slow inhale to the dan tien and even slower exhale. For all 8 stances I usually spend 20 minutes to a half hour to complete. The 8 basic stances are: horse stance, bow stance, empty leg or cat stance, low stance, hanging leg or rooster stands on one leg stance, twisted stance, 70-30 stance and 60-40 stance. Here is a drawing that I did of some of my kung fu brothers holding stances.

http://kabooom.com/stances.gif

They are not perfect but you should get the idea and if you knew these guys you would crack up. :D

[count]

I loved Rhino's post but I think that is too Chinese for us westerners.
;)

[Scott Nordeng]

Why 8 breaths and what type of breathing

twdsn

[Qiman]

Count, I like that drawing. You have posed it before. The first time I saw it I thought it was the training form Tom Toy.

-------------------------I am fortunate to have a teacher to correct my foolish ways......Qiman

[count]

Actually Qiman, you are not far off base. In our school, Tan Tui is the first form we learned along with all the Chang chuan basics and stances.

Rhino, why 8 breaths? Because it is a lot. I don't know why 8. Everything is 8 in bagua. Why 8 stances? Why 8 anything? Becuase it's more. My theory is that the Chinese pick a number that is more than you can keep track of in your head at one time. They could have said six because you only have five fingers on one hand, but maybe that wasn't long enough. 8 is an important number in Chinese mythology but it just seems like the right amount of time. Funny question though.
;)

[RAF]

Count, I think the 8 breaths in the stance work might be a carry over from the baji training. When you reach the level of 8 breaths in baji postures you breath to specific points: 1) top of the head; 2) two shoulders; 3) two elbows; 4) two hands; 5) tailbone; 6)the kua; 7) knees; and 8) two feet. I remember when we were first told about this everyone kept looking for some kind of qi connection etc. but it seems that this a very good way to build the correct alignment (at least for baji) into your stancework.

[count]

I never really thought about it like that except it does bring in the lower part of the macro cosmic orbit that I did not mention before.

Off topic, Jason brought up the idea of traveling to Ohio this fall for the tournament. Of course I jumped on the suggestion. We'll see how it floats with the rest of the group. Are you back from Korea now?
;)

[joedoe]

I may be wrong, but as I understand it the stances help your internal energy because when executed correctly they put your skeleton, and in particular your spine, into the proper alignment to allow your energy to flow and build.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[RAF]

Count:

That would be great if you could make it. We hope to have more seminars etc. this year. We can watch a couple of tapes--I'll see if I can get Yang Laoshi's tape of Du Ye Ze performing lao jia at age 79.

Those 8 breathing points might be the wrist and ankles but I am still in Pusan, eating every kind of Korean food you can think of, and don't have my sources with me.

Here is a mythical saying of GM Liu. For every minute you stand in the horse stance, you stop the aging process. Again nice myth.

Besides the 8, in my qi gong (zhi neng) we use multiples of 9. In the bagua posts, there are actually 9 posts (one in the center + 8). Also have an old article from JAMA about 9 in the postures of taiji etc.

Anyway, its back to eating more squid--I have a fishing village about a 1/4 of a mile below, in sight of the apartment, and mountains directly behind me. Lots of Buddhist temples---some on the yellow sea, some in the mountains. Pusan is really a great area to visit. They have modernized in anticipation of the world cup and there is even a TFI Fridays, Bennigans, Outback, and a new Starbucks. However, eating in the fishing village is pretty interesting. Some of the food even moves before you eat it!

Getting back to the tournament, please try to make it and we can share a lot of stuff. I am interested in your views of taiji too. Master Ma Long from New York also has a new website with lots of insights. I traveled with him twice in China and he is very knowledgeable and fun to be with in China. Perhaps next year you might consider going with us to China for the Qingdao Tournament. There is a lot of interesting Mei Hua mantis. We might be returning to Jinan. Great city, too.

Well, its off to the shores. Keep in touch.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

why are you asking these questions when you call yourself a sifu?

[sam58]

I picked that name for two reasons really.

First, MY teacher needed some help with the large classes we were haveing and offered to waive the class fee if I were to help her. So in a basic sense, I am a teacher to the lower/newer students (even though the T'ai Chi training is relatively new at our school).

Second, I needed a login name. I could have just as well picked "ButteredBread".

I think that nobody stops learning. If a teacher told me there was nothing more for them to learn, I would be very leary of them. The learning process is ever ongoing for all levels of training and life. The roles are forever intertwined. Therefore, the Sifu is a student and student is a Sifu.

Sam

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

[sam58]

Maybe this will make you feel more comfortable...

Fang Xuman(this is my chinese name). I'm still the same person I was before, just a different username is displayed.

;)Sam

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

[lloyd]

Thanks Count!
The mail was very thorough and helpful. Mails like these are the reason, why I read forums.
Excellent observation about ma bu. I have seen and talked to guy who has practiced Chinese MA for decades and his ma bu also had the knees out and the hips were lower than his knees. It looked awkward (I don't know the health implications) and impractical but I am not passing judgement.
Concerning the 8 stances - what are the names and what style is it? Or is the set a hybrid of different styles?
I read somewhere that back in the old days teachers used to accept students after they were able to hold standing posts for an hour. Anyone care to comment?

[RAF]

http://www.wutang.org/MaBuE.html

Here is a piece on the horse stance taken from Wu Tang Master Ma Long's school in New York.

Years ago, Adam Hsu wrote an article in either in Inside Kungfu or Blackbelt titled Ba Shi and explains why stance training is necessary.

I do not have my resources with me but I am sure you can find it referenced in the Sword Polisher's text.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

good luck on your stance training, just remember, your only as good as your horse. splits is the ultimate stance/stretch.

[sam58]

I think this thread may be coming to it's useful end soon. Before it does though, I'd like to thank everybody who contributed their knowledge. You have ultimately helped more than one person seeking to perfect their art. This will be refered to many times in the future, this I am sure of.

Glad to be a part of this group,
Sam

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

[RAF]

http://www.wutang.org/MaBuE.html

Here is a nice post by one of Master Ma Long's students. Master Ma Long operate a Wutang martial arts school in New York.

He is very knowledgeable regarding the history of martial arts development in China: A no BS guy.

[RAF]

Sorry about the double post of sorts.

[honorisc]

Stand until the incense stick burns out. Length of standing is muchly only regarded in Horse-riding stance. The standing in other stances can be timed. It's merely not usually as addressed as standing in Horse-riding stance. Standard minimum for Horseriding stance (thighs parallel to the ground feet parallel to each other) is one hour (this theoretically is the Ancient Chinese standard)

Stances are to develop the body, lower the breathing, strengthen the legs and arms and body, make more sure the stepping, improve the circulation, instruct tollerance, improve concentration, increase steadiness...

Very whatever :-)

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[count]

ttt

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[Kumkuat]

I went to my old Taiji teacher yesterday to see what's up and I joined in his class for fun. Anyway, he made us stay in the standing post for a while. Recently, he's been studying with Yan Gaofei and seemed to have learned something new. So for the first time, I almost felt the posture for pure relaxation. I know my stance wasn't perfect, but I was close according to my observation and feelings. Before, I knew I was relaxed, but was not THIS relaxed. It was quite new.

Before, when I practiced the stance, I tried to use my intent to move my qi to certain places. I wasn't very sucessful because I wasn't really relaxed. But yesterday, after around 10-15 minutes of standing, I went home, still in my internal mindset, and practiced stance again. I held a small rice bag weighing around 0.5-1 pounds in my hand and used my intent to hold the bag up. It was much easier since I wasn't using most of my muscles to hold the bag up; I was just using my alignment and intent to hold the bag up. I have never done this in a long time. So I learned something new: when I do stance training, for the first 10 minutes, I'm going to fix my stance to try to find to most relaxed posture (go into a state of wuji). Then for the next 5-15 minutes or so, I'm gonna use my intent to move the qi around. Anyway, I just to write this since this was a new discovery for me.

Oh yeah, I'm gonna meet Chen Zhen Lei next week, and hopefully, he'll fix my stance where it'll be 99.99% correct.

[Fu-Pow]

I think that there is an important distinction that count missed between stance training in the internal arts and stance training in the external arts. It stems from how power is issued. In the external arts (eg CLF) power (most of the time) is issued from the foot through the hips, the waist, shoulder and arm and then hand. In internal arts it power is issued from the feet, controlled by the waist (not the hips!!), shoulder, arm and the hand. Therefore in Tai Chi there should be no stances where you cross your hips, meaning where you switch from horse stance to bow stance. This "breaks" the internal energy connection and is counterproductive to things like Chan Si Jin.

Furthermore, truely internal arts avoid "double weightedness". Double weightedness is having your weight equally distributed on both feet. Therefore, tai ji does not have a "true" static horse stance like Shaolin derived arts. The weight is always more on one foot than the other, even during standing meditation. The best explanation I have for this comes from the book Yang Family Secret Transmissions. Imagine you are standing on a wheel if your weight is equally divided between both feet then the wheel will not move. When it is more on one foot the wheel will turn.

Taiji adopts a 2/3, 1/3 stance for Chan Si Jin which can be held statically.

The best internal exercise I know of is, of course, standing meditation, where again the weight is not equally divided. It is slightly more on one foot. I won't go into details on how to do this..unless you really want me to.

Also, correct ma bu does have the knees splayed out slightly or else your weight will be too far back.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[count]

Did I miss something or simply not make a point of something. I have only mentioned key points and there are many points I simply did not mention. There are many aspects of training that require a good teacher and alot of time and practice. I believe there are several threads on different boards where different aspects of stance training are mentioned. I have made in one post a distinction between styles and stances and I won't debate with you about chan su jin not being in some and in others. It simply is in all systems.

I will however point out that double weighted has absolutely nothing to do with have your weight evenly distributed. Quite the opposite. I will say that double weightedness is undesirable in any system and all internal systems have horse that is evenly distributed. Ask your teacher what double weightedness is and than let's discuss it. ;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[Fu-Pow]

The direct quote from "Taiji Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions", Sweet Chi Press:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you keep your weight on one side you will be able to follow; if you are double-weighted you will be clumsy. In the commentary above, we used the metaphor of the wheel. If you use one foot to push down on a wheel it will naturally follow the wheel around. Double-weightedness would be like using the right foot to press on the right side and the left leg on the left side. If the two pressures are equal, naturally it will be blocked and unable to rotate. This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration. [/quote]

I don't know any other way to interpret this other than that a 50/50 horse stance is double-weightedness. This is confirmed by the fact that at no time in my Taiji class have we ever done any stance that resembled horse stance, in form or in training. The weight is always on one leg or the other. In kung fu class, however, we do practice horse stance, although the horse stance does not comprise a major part of the forms. We are likewise usually shifting our weight.

If you would care to argue with the quality of the text or my instruction that is , of course, open to debate....... :D

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[count]

What posture do you find yourself in when you play "Apparent Close Up", or the opening first move of your form or in cross hands? These are almost the same in all styles of Tai Chi Chuan but I see Wu style returns to horse more frequently to gather yourse lf. Chen style play "fist pounds mortar" and "fist points to the groin. These are a few examples of 50-50 distribution.

An example of "double weightedness" is when you punch forward and leave nothing behind. You will than easily be pulled over. Whether you balance your energy/momentum with the back leg or hand you should never be more than 100% forward. This puts you in an awkward, clumsy position. I interpret "double weighted" to be overly weighted, not evenly weighted. Even the book you quoted says, "the error of double weightedness lies in misplaced fullness and is not the same as sinking". And it says "double sinking is not an error". In general, horse is only a transition and you should never be stuck in the transition. How does your teacher interpret double weightedness?

http://kabooom.com/horse.jpg r

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[honorisc]

What is or does mean (or did you mean by), "ttt." One might wonder

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[count]

One of the other members posted on the kung fu board he could not find this thread. I moved it To The Top for him. ;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[Kumkuat]

Yeah, I agree with count, I don't think double weighted means 50/50 distribution.

[Fu-Pow]

First of all, count, thank you for going along with this debate. I usually learn a lot from threads likes this. I will confess that Taiji is not my speciality, but I am trying to get a general idea of the theory from my own research.

Secondly, Kumkuat, your post is useless... are you trying to give some sort of moral support to count?Maybe you could try telling us why you agree with count ...that is more important.

OK on to the subject at hand. I've never asked my teacher specifically about "double-weightedness." I will ask him when I have class on Saturday, as welll as about "double-sinking" and "double-floating". These are confusing terms and probably intended to be so.

However, the movements which you refer to and the pictures which you have included do not necessarily point to an even weight distribution. You can't tell from the pictures of Yang Cheng fu where his weight is. It LOOKS like he is evenly weighted but is he really? The move "mortar grinds pestle" or the opening movements of the Chen 24 form, as explained to me by my teacher, are not evenly weighted. He has stated before that even in standing meditation the weight is slightly more on one leg than the other.

I think there maybe a very logical reason for this weight distribution, if the weight is equally divided then before you move in one direction you must move back slightly in the opposite direction. This takes time that in a fighting situation you don't have. You must constantly be flowing from one move to the next, not winding up for the next movement.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> An example of "double weightedness" is when you punch forward and leave nothing behind. You will than easily be pulled over. Whether you balance your energy/momentum with the back leg or hand you should never be more than 100% forward. This puts you in an awkward, clumsy position. [/quote]

So you are saying double weighted ness = leaning?
Seems like it should be called "single-weightedness" because all the weight is in one foot.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "the error of double weightedness lies in misplaced fullness and is not the same as sinking". And it says "double sinking is not an error". [/quote]

But could misplaced fullness be dividing the fullness evenly between 2 legs? I'm not sure what "double-sinking" is. I'm not saying you are wrong, just offering another interpretation.

I'll get back to you after I talk to my teacher. Also, Feng Zhiquiang is coming to my school in August for a 2 day seminar. This might be a good question for him....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[count]

This is a good conversation, not a debate. I will wait for you to discuss it further with your teacher but for now, take a punch in bow stance. if your knee is over your toe and your weight is supported by your shin straight up and down someone will not be able to pull you forward. Now, if you extend your weight further past your toe you will see it is simple for someone to pull you forward. This is double weightedness. Your opponent is simply using your full weight against you.

You x You = Double(weightedness)You.

As I said in my post, "horse is generally a transition" and you should not get trapped in a transition, but there is that point when your weight IS evenly distibuted and it is not incorrect. This is not double weightedness. Maybe double sinking or double floating, but let's see the way your teacher explains it. In the pictures above, remember that in application weight can be in the middle or on one side or the other, but in form the weight is even.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[Fu-Pow]

I understand the leaning thing. You almost never want to extend your knee past the foot. Especially bow stance. However, having said that there are kung fu stances where the knee goes past the foot....I'm thinking specifically of cat stance. This is of course not a Taiji stance. Will get back to you.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[honorisc]

There seems to be only one stance in all of the Chinese systemized fightings where the knee as a standard passes the foot. This knee foot thing is only regarding the foot closest to the direction in which one would be moving(even for reverse(bow-and-arrow) stances, the knee is not passed the foot In The Direction of the movement which forms the stance. The Wushu monks do a kneeling stance in which the knee might be forward of the foot. But that's about it.

"Especially bow stance. However, having said that there are kung fu stances where the knee goes past the foot....I'm thinking specifically of cat stance. This is of course not a Taiji stance."

The comparitve stance--bow stance used the direction of the front leg of the motion. Choosing to cite the rear leg of a cat stance is apples and oranges. Please note the knee/foot proximity of the "front" of the cat stance, knee not in front of foot. To prove your point, please find a stance where the knee goes in front of the foot closest to the direction in which the stance is going....Of course it is not a Taiji stance except for after shoulder stroke, a crane thing with hand blocking diagonally overhead ~ while simultaneously blocking along the waist. Taiji seems to have at least a few, low-key cat stances.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[les paul]

All of these explinations for stance training were clearly of the "Wei Dan classification!"

Were is the Nei Dan explanation? No_Know you were getting close and Count isn't your explanation only talking about the "Wei Dan" side of stance training?

Just My opinion.
Paul
Michigan

[Fu-Pow]

Attn: "Don't call me spanky" (nice name BTW)

That is exactly what I am getting at!!! The difference between wai dan and nei dan stance training.

For once I understand what No_know is saying!!!! Here is a translation for the rest of you : When shifting from horse to bow you are sinking your weight into the lead leg. If you go past the knee the weight is no longer going down into the ground..it is going out past the end of the knee. In cat stance or snake stance you are sinking down so even if the toes go past the knee the weight is still directed to the right place (the ground) so it is less of an issue. Or something like that. I've had this thought before but I forgot I had it.....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Le

[Kaitain(UK)]

If I am working in low postures the knee does go beyond the toe - if you drew a vertical line from the tip of the toe it would go through the middle of the knee - but never further. However, we don't get told this until we are strong enough as it is pretty tough to maintain.

what No_Know describes is what you often see when someone lowers their stance for the first time - they transfer into the front let but cannot sink the weight (bend the knee and close the Kua point enough) so the weight travels forwards and their heels rise.

With regards to double weightedness it isn't as simple a concept as being 50/50 - the whole body must be considered. In some translations the phrase has been taken as 'Doubling Up'. What is important is to distinguish between full and empty - i.e the energy is clear to you.

If the right leg is Yin then the right arm must be Yang - so in a left ward off stance the left leg is loaded (Yang) and the left arm is warding (Yin), and vice versa. Now try using the right arm as the warding arm and the left arm as the Yang - it's a mistake. Now think of Brush Knee with the left leg forwards - Yang Left Leg, Right Arm is Yang. Left Arm is warding.

In Crossing Hands (closing) both legs are Yang and both arms are Yin (they are warding) - this is not a fault. The upper body is Yin and the lower is Yang.

Being 50/50 is a fault at times - there are times when it causes you to be doubled up and unable to move. However 49/51 is sufficient to remove this problem and allow fluidity - we start at 70/30 but as we internalise the weight difference becomes almost intangible.

My favourite quote on this I got from another forum and kept it - enjoy:
"The most general and, in my opinion, truest sounding statement of what avoiding double-weightedness means is that one should appropriately distinguish what is yin and what is yang in every part of the body. Unfortunately, the authorities do not seem to agree on such a basic element of this view as whether a weighted leg is to be viewed as yin or yang. Also, it is not clear whether yin and yang are supposed to be distinguished by weight, speed, degree of openness, amount of jin, etc. or by all of these simultaneously or alternatively.

Having asked these questions, let me describe my attempts to deal with these issues. Basically, I concentrate on feeling three bows in the body (arms, legs, and spine) and trying to feel that one end of each bow is yin and the other is yang, according to the direction in which the energy flows (deng? and cheng?). When I can maintain this visualization, it seems to force me to give due emphasis to Yang Cheng Fu’s Ten Principles, while feeling other contrasts within my body."

Good discussion everyone!

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

as evinced by someone more concise than me :):

1. You must always be in a balanced position that allows you to manifest jin (up, down, away from the body, toward the body; i.e., peng, an, ji, lu)in any direction at any time. I.e., the body is like a balance scale and the essence of Taiji jin is that you are always trying to rebalance against any aggression.

2. If you are in such a position that your opponent can "lock" you such that the immediate rebalancing is not possible, then you had the fault of "double-weighting".

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"