Bouncy stretching

[zmaj]

I dont know if this is the correct term, bouncy stretching, but off course there is different types of stretches. Holding a stretch seems to be the most popular now a days and then twisting to stretch and the bouncy stretch. I read few things about bouncing a stretch and there is supposed to be research done on this and they say its bad and makes a tear in a muscle.

Problem for me is I have a big problem with allergies around spring time. Working up a good sweat clears me up for a few hours , claritin and all those other medicines don't take effect for a while, sometimes I think it just got better on its own because it took so long for pills to take effect, if they ever did in the first place.

Well I finally ran across a dvd thats thai stretching/breathing stuff and most of it is twisting and breathing, but its rocking, rather then stretching to a point and going back, its stretching to different levels all coordinated with breathing.

While its done they talk about what each thing is good for, nowhere do they say anything about alergies, but for some weird reason it clears me up for most of the day.

Now I did bunch of other stuff before, as far as MA exercises and meditations are concerned and I always did it to gain strength, cardio, flexibility and other things you would normally expect and I always struggled during this time of the year. But now when I do these thai exercises for some reason I clear up.

Should I stick to it or is it a bad idea.

[RUFNTUFGIRL]

These Stretches Are Ballistic And Can Do More Harm Than Good! After A Nice Warm Up Stretch And Hold It 12-18 Seconds No Bouncing!!!you Can Repeat The Stretch But Do Not Over Do It!

[zmaj]

Well, let me clear this up a little bit.

Its not bouncing the entire time, when stretching legs they instruct to hold the stretch, when stretching arms its instructed to twist in specific ways to get a stretch and when it comes to the back they call for the bounce/breathe stretch.

But Thai people are known for quick results and they pay for it as they age so thats why I'm a little sceptical about this approach, but then again, even though they dont age too well I dont hear about back problems, mostly knees that they have issues with.

For all I know, I do more damage to my self doing kung fu then playing with this other approach to health.

Well... I guess like cjurakpt suggested, just to ease into it and dont push anything and hopefully it works out.

[Oso]

because you can ellicit a reflexive guarding of the muscle if you set off the spindle via the myotactic reflex arc; however, if you do a nice, gentle, small amplitude "wiggle", you may get some good results - mixing it with intermittent static stretching may help; also the old contract/relax thing is very efficient as well;

CJ, if you have time, could you elaborate on this section? Specifically the terms in bold and how you mean them contextually in this.

I'm taking the 'contract/relax' as when you go in to a stretch, contract at limit, then relax and extend the stretch. ???

TIA

[dougadam]

Bouncing is a bad idea when it comes to stretching.

[Becca]

muscles have sensory fibers that give information about things like the muscle's position in space, the speed at which it is moving, etc.; the spindle specifically is designed to assess the rate of acceleration, such that if the feedback comes in that the muscle is getting too long too quickly, which could result in actual tearing, then the myotactic reflex arc is activated - this is a neural connection from the spindle to the spinal chord back to the muscle contractile fibers; it is a very quick circuit because it has only one or two connections (I forget exactly) in the loop; so, when the spindle is quick stretched, the muscle will reflexively contract, or guard, in order to prevent that from happening (it's like if someone tries to quickly straighten your elbow, you'll pull back reflexively); this can result in an acute muscle strain if the reflexive guarding is strong enough - so if someone jerks your elbow straight and you pull back reflexively to counteract that, you can end up with a biceps strain that would be the result of that reflex

Does this also happen when you stretch slowly? I'm thinking of the example of how you can put one leg at a time up on a log and get your leg strait out while keeping your hips forward, but can't get your leg strait out when you try to do both at the same time, even if you slowly work into it.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Bouncing is a bad idea when it comes to stretching.

Well this well-thought out and reasoned response convinced me that the CPT who weighed in on the subject and gave reasoning as to why it is not so bad doesn't know what he is talking about...:rolleyes:

[Oso]

ok, that's about it - sorry, you did ask...;)


Thanks!

I've done a two person stretch for years where your partner gets in a horse and you put a leg on their shoulder, like a front kick, while you are standing against a wall. They raise up slowly in the horse and you stop them at a comfortable limit and then contract for 5 seconds, relax and they raise again and so on. Usually 3-4 reps. I was taught to not push the stretch to a really painfull level...just to the point beyond totally comfortable. We do this with a front kick and a side kick.

My flexibility has never been more than 'good' but I've never gone to extreme measures to increase it. I've always been able to kick head height and that's been enough. Since training Pong Lai and doing our warmup/stretching routine which looks 'bouncy' my front is higher by several inches, cold. I hope that this routine will be available on tape one day, I'd like to get a professional's opinion on it.

[Becca]

in your case Becca, I don't really know why you are felling the tightness - it can be for lots of reasons, but it sounds like tight hamstrings, which can be tight for a multitude of reasons - I would suggest having someone qualified take a look at what it is you are trying to do, maybe they can observe something that might help you work through that - if you tell me what part of the country you are in, I might have some suggestions as to who to try
I actually did go get that hip thing fixed, but my doc doesn't explain things as well as you do. Thanx!:)

And it is tight hammies, from not being able to use them. My hip was mis-aligned and had been for years; I'd always just assumed it was residual from having had it dislocated.:o :rolleyes:

[zmaj]

Thanks!

I've done a two person stretch for years where your partner gets in a horse and you put a leg on their shoulder, like a front kick, while you are standing against a wall. They raise up slowly in the horse and you stop them at a comfortable limit and then contract for 5 seconds, relax and they raise again and so on. Usually 3-4 reps. I was taught to not push the stretch to a really painfull level...just to the point beyond totally comfortable. We do this with a front kick and a side kick.

My flexibility has never been more than 'good' but I've never gone to extreme measures to increase it. I've always been able to kick head height and that's been enough. Since training Pong Lai and doing our warmup/stretching routine which looks 'bouncy' my front is higher by several inches, cold. I hope that this routine will be available on tape one day, I'd like to get a professional's opinion on it.

I was just about to say that the stretching dvd was not the only one I seen that use a "bounce". One that comes to mind right now is of a Choy Lay Fut instructor bouncing to stretch and later doing his demonstration on some applications.

I'm pretty sure I seen many others do it because I tend to watch instructional stuff a lott because I just find it interesting :) anyway, some of them even feature older guys doing that stuff and they dont seem to have problems from it. Off course stretching was different and I didn't try to do that stuff unlike the Thai stretch I was asking about.

But I have done that leg raise before in TKD and all the senior black belts seemed fine even though they did it for years, one thing I did notice on them is complaints of knee problems and two surgeries among long time practitioners. Perhaps from advanced kicking techniques?

[zmaj]

muscles have sensory fibers that give information about things like the muscle's position in space, the speed at which it is moving, etc.; the spindle specifically is designed to assess the rate of acceleration, such that if the feedback comes in that the muscle is getting too long too quickly, which could result in actual tearing, then the myotactic reflex arc is activated - this is a neural connection from the spindle to the spinal chord back to the muscle contractile fibers; ...........ok, that's about it - sorry, you did ask...;)

I shortened that up a bit, but it was an interesting explanation which bring me to a new questiong for you. If I was to do a karate "oi geri" or back leg front snap kick, wouldnt that be same thing, setting off that reflexive guard your talking about, because its basiclly kicking out to completely streighten out your leg and then jerking it backwards fast so your leg cant be grabbed. So wouldn't that be messing with that guard too?

And it really seemes that no matter what art I study I seem to find some issues in health long term or short, even though they all mostly bring you positive things in regards to your health, so is it basicly that you have to sacrifice something for better genereal health?

[Becca]

just out of curiosity, was the hip dislocation due to a trauma or was it congenital? also, what do you mean by not being able to use the hamstrings? (if you've been walking, you've been using them ;) )

nevertheless, that could certainly explain your situation - typically, the hams act sort of as default equalizers - that is, when anything gets screwy around the pelvis / hips, they tend to tighten up to try to balance out the other muscles in that area

BTW, if you ever were to go looking for some treatment, for that or anything else, these guys are based in Steamboat Springs, and they are one of the leading edge facilties nationally in terms of manual therapy training (I've taken a few of their courses): http://www.instituteofphysicalart.com
It was due to trama. For several years after, my leg would buckle if I steped just wrong or stood up too fast. After a while of being told it couldn't be fixed I just stopped trying to get into anything resembling a low stance, quit grappling all together and focused on my weapons training, instead. And while I didn't stop walking, I did stop running.:o

Nice link! Right now, I am absolutly facinated by how much I can still do if I can stand the discomfort of it.:)

[rickyscaggs]

These Stretches Are Ballistic And Can Do More Harm Than Good! After A Nice Warm Up Stretch And Hold It 12-18 Seconds No Bouncing!!!you Can Repeat The Stretch But Do Not Over Do It!

I'm willing to bet you have never been instructed on this type of stretching before and have probably just read this in a book, online or heard it from someone who read it in a book or online.

In ballistic stretching you don't force your body weight into your stretch like you are throwing yourself into it. You do it lightly. It's a very light bounce. Once you've loosened up then you may go a bit further but you never reach back and then hurl yourself forward into the stretch and bounce back out of it. It's always a very controlled thing.

In fact it's hardly any different than dynamic stretching, and everyone speaks well about doing this type of stretching. The only difference is instead of using your upper body to bounce into the stretch you use your legs to swing into the stretch. It's just doing it backward and many people forcefully whip their legs higher than they are able and hurt themselves too. The key to ballistic stretching is the same as dynamic. Control!

Besides all this I'd just look at those who use other methods such as in the west compared to those who use ballistic stretching such as in the east, Thailand or China. Shaolin Tongzigong. Those kids use ballistic stretching to loosen up and train for this special skill. The Beijing Wushu Team. Look how flexible they all are. They all use ballistic stretching and if it were really so dangerous and harmful, like "more harm than good" I don't think they'd be doing the things they do.

[Shaolinlueb]

its weird, everyone says bouncing stretching is bad. but when you go to china to trian with the super flexible wushu people, they do it a lot.

usually in their pre warm up stretch. its a controlled bounce (not just pushing ****her and ****her).

[Oso]

that pretty much is what the PT that worked on my shoulder was doing. Her bio said she was Maitland trained...wait, I think I've said that already somewhere around here... :o :o

[RUFNTUFGIRL]

[QUOTE=rickyscaggs]...
In fact it's hardly any different than dynamic stretching, and everyone speaks well about doing this type of stretching. The only difference is instead of using your upper body to bounce into the stretch you use your legs to swing into the stretch. It's just doing it backward and many people forcefully whip their legs higher than they are able and hurt themselves too. The key to ballistic stretching is the same as dynamic. Control! ...

I AGREE IT IS ABOUT SPEED AND CONTROL! YOU NEED NOT TALK DOWN TO ME! YOU ARE STATING, YOURSELF, THAT MANY PEOPLE FORCEFULLY STRETCH WITHOUT THE CONTROL. THAT IS WHY I DID NOT SUGGEST IT. SHE ASKED, I GAVE AN OPINION. MANY PEOPLE DO INDEED HURT THEMSELVES BY INDUCING THE STRETCH REFLEX MECH WHICH SHORTENS INSTEAD OF THE INTENDED LENGHTENING. I HAVE DONE IT AND WAS SO SURE I WAS DOING IT CORRECTLY! SHE REFERS TO THE STRETCH AS BOUNCY, SO I DON'T THINK SHE WAS REFERRING TO DYNAMIC BECAUSE SHE SPOKE OF BREAKING A SWEAT. THANKS FOR QUOTING ME THOUGH I FEEL SO NOTICED:rolleyes: JUST PLAYIN!

[Becca]

Obtaining adequate extensibility of soft tissues to meet functional demands is often an integral
part of rehabilitation from injury, injury prevention, and enhancement of athletic performance. To this end,
a variety of stretching methods have been developed. Stretches have traditionally been categorized as either
ballistic stretch (BS), static stretch (SS), or proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation stretch (PNF). (3,39)
All three types of stretch have been shown to effectively increase flexibility as determined by increased
ROM. (1,3,5,32,39,47,55) Each type of stretch has it’s advantages and disadvantages. There is, however,
no consensus as to which method is most effective.

The complete study results are at:

http://www.instituteofphysicalart.com/pdf/section13.pdf


:)