Advancing, retreating, false and real [Archive]

K.Brazier

03-03-2006, 07:00 AM

On the weekend of March 18th and 19th I will be hosting a little get together in Tampa.
I will be using the form Shaolin Luohan's 18 Hands to illustrate and explain the concept of continous flow.
This will be taught alongside the keywords advancing, retreating, false and real,

"Within advancing and retreating exists the false and real. The midst of false and real has advancing and retreating."

In the case of the words false and real they also mean empty and full. This might be an odd pair of words to understand becuase while in English there is a difference between the two terms false and empty, in Chinese it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that the character xu simultaneusly embodies both the meaning of false and of empty. I will lead the training to sharpen and refine this understanding in terms of contact with the opponent. I mean a lot of non stop contact.

About advancing and retreating:
To understand advancing and retreating is to apply them at the right moment.
To understand false and real is to give way and to take advantage of the situation at the right moment. This method of training emphasizes taking advantage of the opponent's lack of ability to be IN the moment. Or you can say we take advantage of the opponent's inability to know where the energy is and isn't.

This can be said to be a part of the internal family of boxing(nei jia chuen).
The last seminar explored the wai jia aspects of Mantis Boxing. This time we will explore the nei jia aspects of Mantis Boxing. And we will do it thru a wai jia form. Don't worry if it is odd to do a wai jia form with nei jia sensitivity. I assure you it is not against the rules.

Kevin

Oso

03-03-2006, 07:39 AM

Sounds great.

For me, the more 'internal' aspects have always just meant finer levels of sensitivity and control of power generatioin that you gain later in training. So, I guess I don't see the difference too much.

K.Brazier

03-03-2006, 11:29 AM

Hi Matt,
Here is a paraphrase of the original definition of the internal and external schools of boxing.

The external school of boxing means to attack your opponent as if to chop him down.
The internal school of boxing means to lie in wait reacting off of the opponent's attack.

To use an analogy;
When a woodsman chops down a tree his singular concern is to go through the tree.
But, when a butcher splits and divides an oxen he uses the blade to feel his way through the joints and tendons.

Although neither of the two concepts can exist alone, yet there is a distinct difference between them. By bringing one or the other into focus we can develop either of those skills within ourselves.
From talking to you in person I think that this explanation won't change your present perception of these terms, but instead will serve to add to it.

I hope that helps.

But, another way to look at it...
Forget the terms internal and external!!

Just think of what we will do as methods to train the apps of the form while at the same time using a proven and traditional method of building up the students subtle sensitivity to perceiving the opponents intention. We will follow this with turning a defense into an offense.

One thing is for sure. Every time I teach this the students feel a great sense of accomplishment in realizing a level of sensitivity they never knew they had(at least that is what they told me).

Kevin

Oso

03-03-2006, 11:38 AM

it sounds like what you are saying is that they are simply two side to the same coin. ???

i mean, from a tactical standpoint sometimes it's a better tactic to wait and in others to immediately attack ???

even when splitting the tree the woodsman needs to be sensitive to a hidden knot in the tree that might turn the axe.

thank you

K.Brazier

03-03-2006, 02:08 PM

Hi Matt,

"it sounds like what you are saying is that they are simply two side to the same coin. ???"

Yes, you can say that. But, that turns the issue into a black and white 'either or issue.'
We could also say that the property of heat can not exist with out the property of cold. And yet heat is only a relative term. So everything within the world of hot and cold is defined by its relation to another temperature.

In the same way, your attack and defense are always to some degree defined by your opponent.
Make sense?

"i mean, from a tactical standpoint sometimes it's a better tactic to wait and in others to immediately attack ???"

This was best defined by Sun Zi in his military textbook. When to wait and when not to wait. He goes into great detail.

For example, if the opponent is rash provoke him to attack.
If he darts about wait for him to exhuast himself. This type of thing, though I would have to dig up the quote.
As soon as my new book shelves are in order I will be able to spew out those old quotes.

"even when splitting the tree the woodsman needs to be sensitive to a hidden knot in the tree that might turn the axe."

Yes! The empty within the full. Or the soft within the hard.
The yin within the yang.
Or the yielding within the unyielding.

Most important is to adapt oneself to the situation at hand.

Oso

03-03-2006, 02:32 PM

Yes, you can say that. But, that turns the issue into a black and white 'either or issue.'
We could also say that the property of heat can not exist with out the property of cold. And yet heat is only a relative term. So everything within the world of hot and cold is defined by its relation to another temperature.

it's all relative to the situation at hand. that's why I think talking technique and theory on the internet is very limited. there are so many variables you have to, as you say:

I will lead the training to sharpen and refine this understanding in terms of contact with the opponent. I mean a lot of non stop contact.

you have to do it, experience it and keep trying to experience with as many different people as possible to get as many variables as possible.

LOL, even though a coin has just two sides, there is still a chance that it will land on the edge. ;)

In the same way, your attack and defense are always to some degree defined by your opponent.
Make sense?

absolutely...can there be any other way? without the opponent there is no need for attack or defense.

This was best defined by Sun Zi in his military textbook. When to wait and when not to wait. He goes into great detail.

For example, if the opponent is rash provoke him to attack.
If he darts about wait for him to exhuast himself. This type of thing, though I would have to dig up the quote.
As soon as my new book shelves are in order I will be able to spew out those old quotes.

no need to hurry on my account, I've read it and while I can't spout the quotes either, I think I get it.

Yes! The empty within the full. Or the soft within the hard.
The yin within the yang.
Or the yielding within the unyielding.

I am reluctant to go down the path of discussing yin/yan and the tao online...so many of the concepts end up being trivialized while they are being aggrandized.

but, yes, the problem, I think, is that the change happens so quick that it's very hard to talk about all the variables that cause the change fast enough.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

:)

mantis108

03-03-2006, 07:25 PM

Well, just imagine how cool it would be living next door to Kevin. :D

Anyway, great to hear that another seminar is planed.

Hi Oso,

I hear you and I totally understand where you are coming from. However, I think it would be beneficial to understand those terms and the connotations behind them. I believe it would help to develop the game based on Tanglang approach. So... It might be akward in the beginning to try to grasp those terms but once you are used to them, it would be a piece of cake. This goes with the other stuffs like the 12 Keywords and such.

Warm regards

Robert

Oso

03-04-2006, 06:07 AM

Robert,

I hear you and that's what I'm after. That's why all the questions. :)

K.Brazier

03-07-2006, 06:45 AM

The first move in Shaolin Luohan's 18 Hands is called eagle siezes the gullet. This move is from the eagle claw style and can be considered one of its essential attacking methods.

In the old mantis boxing manuscript it talks about this technique with a slightly different name as well as a different perspective. It is titled," To defeat golden rooster seizes the gullet."
This technique is really very similar to the essential mantis move straight punch to the face(yin mian zhi tong), but with some important differences.

The straight punch requires a speedy strike with a lot of power as well as a fist hard as a rock. Eagle siezes the gullet requires none of this. Sometimes it works best when the hand just casually moves forward like a pat on the shoulder. It can be done with no power on the forward strike as well. This often causes the opponent to miscalculate since strikes with no power are unusual. What it does require is a coconut crushing grip(I recommend you don't grip someone's throat
and use coconut crushing power!).

About the age of this form itself I can not say, but all the moves in the form are from ancient times. Some of the terms used to describe the moves in this form are not listed in modern Chinese dictionaries and I had a hard time tracking down the old pronunciations and meanings.

This move also appears in White Ape Steals the Peach in the 4th road. From the HK school of Mantis Boxing will find this move in the form Mantis Steals the Peach.

Kevin

Oso

03-07-2006, 08:55 AM

I just ran across an older issue of Kung Fu mag that has an article that says it's Shaolin Shiba Shou...it's at the school, I'll bring it home tonight and see if it's the same thing.

Joe Mantis

03-07-2006, 07:04 PM

[QUOTE=K.Brazier]On the weekend of March 18th and 19th I will be hosting a little get together in Tampa.

What time is the get together? Where will it be held? What is the consideration for the seminar?

Thanks,

Darryl

ps. It's good to be back on the forum. I miss you PG guys.

EarthDragon

03-07-2006, 07:42 PM

Kevin,
In our 8 step joint locks we have a chin na Jien ( neck) tech. called controlling the roosters throat. Is this what you are taking about? it is a individual tech, not a form am I clear on this that they are the same in which you speak? thanks

18elders

03-07-2006, 07:54 PM

it lives!!!!!!

Oso

03-08-2006, 08:04 AM

The article is in the July/Aug 2004 issue of Kung Fu/Tai Chi magazine.

It's title is "Shaolin Lohan 18 Hand Movements: Lohan Shi Ba Shou"

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500

there doesn't appear to be an online version of the article though.

It details these movements:

Jade Belt Wrapped Around the Body

Golden Cicada Shedding Shell

Lifting the Body, Dotting the Ribs

I'll bring the copy with me.

Joe Mantis

03-08-2006, 08:41 AM

Don't tease me!

Time, Place, etc... I need some Mantis Boxing

This will be the 1st time in 2 1/2 freaking years that I can actually pull away from the business.

Give some details please. I need a mantis fix man. Hook a brother up will ya?

K.Brazier

03-08-2006, 11:05 AM

Hi Joe,
It is a get together. It starts when you show up.
I think I will start teaching Fri night if anone shows up at the school.
BTW, I now live in fl 2 miles from the school so you can come when you want. For the Tenn guys we have to make a big production since they live so far away.

Matt, I look forward to reading the mag when you bring it. According to the names you list it is NOT the same form.

I have two manuscripts for this form and it is a well known standardized form.

18 Luohan is a very popular term and used for many things in Chinese MA.

ED,
I am pretty sure that you are talking of a different move.
Siezing the Eagles gullet means to put your hand on the opponent's neck. It is not considered chinna from my perspective, though it could be since the other hand must first control the opponent's hand.

In my training method the important point is how you can actually get your ahnd on the opponent's throat in a crafty way, since most people don't let you put your hand there.

Here is one crafty way,"Hey, what is that on your shirt?" Slowly and gently reach over then grab his throat.

Some of theneck locks I was taught were explained as being variations of Mantis Siezes the Cicada.
Hope that helps.

Oso

03-08-2006, 11:33 AM

I'll be sure to bring it. I just happened to be flipping through my stack of back issues and saw it.

I'm very curious and interested about this throat grabbing...when I did hung gar, tiger was very natural for me and I was taught to 'go for the throat' and became rather good at sneaking in for the grab.

For the Tenn guys we have to make a big production since they live so far away.

and us NC peeps ;)

EarthDragon

03-08-2006, 12:59 PM

Kevin, thanks for the reply. i too am talking about a throat grab. However it is listed in our joint locks. As you are joint locking your opponents arm underneath your arm next to the rib cage and your right hand then controls or seizes the throat. i have included the worded application. i would be interested if it is indeed the same.

CONTROLLING THE ROOSTER’S THROAT
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , LEFT ELBOW BREAK , LEFT UPPERCUT
UNDER OPPONENTS ARM
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. GRAB BLOCK WITH RIGHT HAND , PUSH OPPONENTS RIGHT ARM BEHIND YOU GRAB THROAT WITH HAWK HANDS.

Oso

03-08-2006, 01:48 PM

i know you addressed this to Kevin but I'm having a little trouble following the description

CONTROLLING THE ROOSTER’S THROAT
O. PUNCHES RIGHT

I'm assuming the following is done from outside the punching arm?

D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB

LEFT ELBOW BREAK

w/ forearm of left arm?

LEFT UPPERCUT UNDER OPPONENTS ARM

then slip under the arm you just broke w/ the uppercut of the arm you used to break his?

what are your body mechanics while doing this?

O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK

He's blocking your uppercut? What is a 'side block'?

D. GRAB BLOCK WITH RIGHT HAND

so, he blocks your left uppercut and you grab his left blocking hand w/ your right hand

PUSH OPPONENTS RIGHT ARM BEHIND YOU GRAB THROAT WITH HAWK HANDS.

completely lost me there.

not criticising, just trying to figure out what you're doing

EarthDragon

03-08-2006, 03:38 PM

Oso, alow me to be more descriptive

I'm assuming the following is done from outside the punching arm?

yes closing the centerline with a right handed mantis grab

D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB

LEFT ELBOW BREAK

w/ forearm of left arm?

yes, as in a powercut breaking opponents right elbow with your left arm or the same motion if you just hyper extend his elbow

LEFT UPPERCUT UNDER OPPONENTS ARM

then slip under the arm you just broke w/ the uppercut of the arm you used to break his?

correct this technique alone is highly effective as it (the uppercut) cannot be seen

what are your body mechanics while doing this?

simple sliding step inward while your body is at an angle

O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK

He's blocking your uppercut? What is a 'side block'?

regular side slap block, this allows you to grab his blocking hand and grab the throat with your right hand without having to worry about a counter punch

D. GRAB BLOCK WITH RIGHT HAND

so, he blocks your left uppercut and you grab his left blocking hand w/ your right hand

no left hand you simply turn your left hand over and grab his wrist

PUSH OPPONENTS RIGHT ARM BEHIND YOU GRAB THROAT WITH HAWK HANDS.

while you are under his right arm following your uppercut and you have turned your left hand around and grabbed his left side block , with your right hand you reach down and while moving off your angle to face directly in front of your opponent, you push his right arm weather broken or just hyper extended to your left side against your ribs then with your right hand reach up and seize his throat. this way his right arm is under your armpit and his left hand is grabbed buy your left hand

It may seem a little intricite and hard to follow written but it is very easy and effective to do this. i have often had patrons in the bars iwhere i bounced at taken out of the bar with this very technique of course without the elbow break.

Did i explain it in a way you understand better? let me know, try it a couple of times as it is a great technique to know..

Oso

03-08-2006, 03:43 PM

yep, thanks.

I was mostly right in what I thought you were saying.

leaving for class...more later.

K.Brazier

03-08-2006, 06:57 PM

Moves off of left plucking right attack:
One of the ideas in this form is to use the left hand to pluck the opponent's hand and use the right hand to attack. The attack that you apply is based on the situaion you find yourself in. So you would do the above mentioned throat grab if it was convenient to do so, but if the opponent was leaning back or moving away you might use one of the similar moves but with advancing footwork.

The purpose of the training is to give you, as the attacker, an instinctual feeling of what to apply as well as grasping the perfect time to apply it.
And to give the defender the skills to worm his way out of the attack and immediately counter attack.
There are six types of attack in this form that follow the pattern of left pluck right attack.

1. Eagle siezes Gullet. My left hand grabs the opponent's left hand and pulls it to my waist as my right hand siezes his throat (different than your move ED).

2. Carrying basket Manuever. My left hand grabs his right hand and steps in for a takedown. It looks as if a heavy basket is looped over your right forearm in the solo version.

3. Interconnected Straight punch. My left hand grabs his right hand and I advance the step while attacking with a striaght punch. This is the Mantis boxing name of this move. In this form the move is called single rafter. I had a terrible time in tracking down the meaning of this character. The ancient meaning was listed as the rafter or central roof beam of the house. My educated guess is that it was also the name used for the battering ram used by enemy soldiers on striking the city gate during times of war. In fact that is the proper way to apply the move. The body rams forward while the arm is like a battering ram.

4. Gou Zi Bu. The hooking step as we say in some school of Mantis Boxing. Some schools call this chao tuei. In this Shaolin form it is called Hanging the Golden Hook. The left hand hooks the opponent's left hand and my right hand does an inverse grab to his throat so that I can pull his neck into my body. WHile this is happening my right ankle kicks and lifts behind his left ankle for the takedown.

5. Taishan yading. In this case the right strike is a smash to his face.

6. Figure ten kick and advancing Mandarin Duck Kicks. He tries to escape my attacks so I jump forward with kicks both low and high.

Kevin

Oso

03-08-2006, 07:11 PM

Shibo, you mentioned the importance of this form when you were in Asheville.
Would you mind elaborating on why and where you feel this fits in to the grand scheme of chinese boxing?

Also, we are trying to be in Tampa between 5 and 6 on Friday the 17th.

EarthDragon

03-09-2006, 10:19 AM

Kevin, its intersesting that i have been taught very similar techniques with similar names. I was always taught that it was feng Hua Yi that added joint locks to our lineage of 8 step and thus the names for them remain the same. i.e

1. Eagle siezes Gullet. My left hand grabs the opponent's left hand and pulls it to my waist as my right hand siezes his throat (different than your move ED).

but yet named closly and I posted our worded version previous

2. Carrying basket Manuever. My left hand grabs his right hand and steps in for a takedown. It looks as if a heavy basket is looped over your right forearm in the solo version.

We have this under PALM ( TSANG ) locks
we cal it holding the basket( CHOW NA QUA LAN )

O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT LOW BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGHT BLOCK
D. LEFT STEALING HANDS , RIGHT ELBOW BREAK
O. BENDS ELBOW
D. SLIDE RIGHT ARM UNDER ELBOW GRAB WRIST PULL BACK.

3. Interconnected Straight punch. My left hand grabs his right hand and I advance the step while attacking with a striaght punch. This is the Mantis boxing name of this move. In this form the move is called single rafter. I had a terrible time in tracking down the meaning of this character. The ancient meaning was listed as the rafter or central roof beam of the house. My educated guess is that it was also the name used for the battering ram used by enemy soldiers on striking the city gate during times of war. In fact that is the proper way to apply the move. The body rams forward while the arm is like a battering ram.
again we have this under ELBOW ( TSOU ) lock

we call this
CHANGE THE POST HOLDING THE ROOF ( HO DUA BAN DO )
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT SIDE BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. RIGHT SIDE BLOCK , LEFT SUN PUNCH
D. LEFT SIDE BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGH BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
D. LEFT HIGH BLOCK , GRAB CIRCLE UNDER OPPONENTS ARM ,
LOCK ELBOW AS YOU LIFT SHOULDER.

whats your take on this? thanks

K.Brazier

03-12-2006, 06:26 PM

"Would you mind elaborating on why and where you feel this fits in to the grand scheme of chinese boxing?"

It is a good link from the beginner level to the intermediate level.
It is close to Shaolin's 8 step Continuous Punches form. So learning one after the other performs a coherent teaching method.

This form also makes a good overview of what is in store for the student as they progress as it contains kicks, punches, chin na and throws.
Students enjoy learning this form as the techniques flow from one to the other very easily.
It can be used for both children and adults. Except for the fact that it is short it does not appear to be a beginner form.
It makes a good bridge whether the student will be learning mantis form such as Luanjie and beng bu or if the student will be moving on tho the three Hu yan forms.

I like to use this form as an explanation of how to move from the open and closed position to different types of kicks, punches, chin na and throws.

If you wanted to concentrate soley on Mantis you could leave this form out, but I find it is hard to teach Mantis to beginners.
So That is why some of my shiye would make you do basic roads for six months or just have a class of nothing but horse stances.

Kevin

K.Brazier

03-12-2006, 06:33 PM

"I was always taught that it was feng Hua Yi that added joint locks to our lineage of 8 step and thus the names for them remain the same."

Other mantis masters were also very accomplished at chin na. For the most part this is that aspect that is passed on in a very small setting of a few people or just teacher and student.
Before my Mei Hua Master passed away, Luan Xingfu, I had a chance to see him operate his chin na.

My elder explained and showed me how Zhang Dekeui(mimen) would apply chin na to him.

These masters both applied their chin na off of their attacks. When you try to escape they just convert.

Robert's Master, Zhao Zhuxi, Was also a chin na expert. My shifu went to train with him and was highly inspired.

The moves you listed do not seem the same as the ones in this form. I will put together a video of this some day this year.

Kevin

Oso

03-12-2006, 09:16 PM

Thanks. See you soon.

EarthDragon

03-13-2006, 03:14 PM

K Brazier , thanks for the replies. As you know I am trying to link together the my teachings of 8 step into others teachings and knowledge to find a common thread/ground. We were always told of masters in our lineage adding things to MeiHuia to make it a hybrid system. From my understanding Chiang Hua long added the footwork, Feng the joint locks, Wei the taichi from Wu Ching Chan. Shyun bringing it to the US and Dean teaching to the masses. So i find it interesting that so many things sound similar but not quite the same. I am wondering if it was lost in translation, teaching or what. What is taught in one part of the world to the students should also be taught in another part of the worldwithout much difference. So far paul lin, you and Robert all seem to the most knowledgable on the origins and places for the things others may wish to know. And for that I am grateful. I hope to come to FLA in the next year or so and meet you. be well..........

K.Brazier

03-13-2006, 09:11 PM

"So i find it interesting that so many things sound similar but not quite the same. I am wondering if it was lost in translation, teaching or what. "

Actually,
It is becuase the terms have a lot of cliches.
I will post the complete manuscript of the form for you to see.

Kevin

K.Brazier

03-13-2006, 09:14 PM

Here is the old manuscript of the form.
Sorry I don't have the Chinese here.
If there is a strong interest I will put that up too.

For those who attend make a copy of this for reference sake.

Shaolin's 18 Hands of Luohan

1. Eagle Seizes the Gullet- Ying Tao Su- Supporting Hands- Tuo Shou
2. Carrying Basket Maneuver- Kua Lan Shi
3. Drawing the Bow- Ying Kai Gong
4. Support the Beam Fire Cannon- Jia Liang Pao
5. Dragon Descends from Heaven Hand- Jiang Long Shou
6. Monk Strikes the Bell – Seng Qiao Zhong
7. Cleverly Thread the Needle – Qiao Ren Jen
8. Single Rafter (Left and Right Side)- Yi Tiao Quan
9. Hanging Golden Hook- Jin Gou Gua
10. Seize and Wrap the Silk- Niu Chan Si
11. Rebel Sweeping Kick- Sao Dang Tui
12. Open Body Fist- Pi Shen Chui
13. Kicking Ball Maneuver- Ti Qiu Jiao
14. Mandarin Duck Kicks- Yuan Yang Jiao
15. Cleaving Firewood Maneuver- Pi Chai Shi
16. Monk Subdues Tiger- Seng Fu Hu
**Drawing the Bow- Ying Kai Gong
17. Oblique Luan Elbow- Ao Luan Zhou
**Monk Strikes the Bell- Seng Qiao Zhong
**Cleverly Thread the Needle- Qiao Ren Jen
18. Monk Pushes the Gate- Seng Tui Men
**Close Hands- Bi Shou

Oso

03-14-2006, 05:20 AM

Done. Thanks.

Oso

03-20-2006, 11:58 AM

whew...what a weekend. We had a total of 5 training sessions: Fri night, Sat Morn/Afternoon/Evening and Sunday morning...12 or more hours total. It was the most I've trained since surgery...as all of you could tell from all the heavy breathing. :p

Shibo, I have realized I also forgot to bring the magazine...sorry. I'm looking at it now and it doesn't seem to be the same one but they do only show those three movements as application and not as form...could maybe be the same but I don't think so. What they are calling "Lifting the body, dotting the Ribs" looks similar to "Drawing the bow" in application. I will photocopy and mail to you.

It was great to meet some new folks and train with some of the family again. Let's keep this momentum up.

Shibo, thanks for taking time away from your wife and children to teach us.

Xie Xie Laoshr.

K.Brazier

03-21-2006, 07:12 PM

Hi Matt,
I am happy you enjoyed it, bu keqi.
It was a good post operative workout.

Some folks have asked what were all the drills based upon.

They were based upon the double palms.
This is found in 8 Hard as following step double palms.
7 Long as wrapping hands double palms.
Monk closes the gate, etc.
The easiest way to introduce double palms is with an zhang, or pressing palms.
Later you can add in all the other types of double palms which are found in this form as wel as Shaolin 8 step continuous punch. Not to mention many others.

Drawing the bow-Ying kai gung is one of the most common postures in MA both Northern and Southern.

The similar posture in Shaolin 8 step continuous punch is sometimes called,"Bending the bow and shooting the tiger"-wan gung she hu.

Kevin

Oso

03-21-2006, 07:39 PM

very much enjoyed it...I feel like I've made some connections between things...I've gone back to the 8 Step Continuous Punch tape and watched it again and I think I see some patterns....but, who knows, sometimes I read too much into things and make it more complicated than it is...oh, well...I'll be back down shortly.

Here's a shot of the group this weekend.

Kevin is center front of course.

From left to right, front row to back row.

Oso, Xiong Tang Lang, K. Brazier, Yu Shan, _____
Joe Mantis,Sylvia, Becky,_____,_____
Oscar, Metal Mantis, Frank.

names left out to protect the innocent.;)

Oso

03-21-2006, 07:48 PM

two more pics. my battery died so I only got a few stills.

I'm not looking at my notes at the moment, hopefully I'm right in this: This was application of move #9 Hanging Golden Hook

Joe Mantis

03-22-2006, 04:42 AM

Did you have to put my face on there?

I appreciate the pic though. Nice camera work:)

What a great weekend. It was terrific to meet some new folks and see the old ones again.

Oh course the training sessions speak for themselves.

Thanks Kevin!

Who's got wrist burn?:D

Oso

03-22-2006, 05:41 AM

sorry man, they were the only ones we got before the camera died.

they did turn out well though didn't they?

racerX

03-22-2006, 07:41 AM

What a GREAT weekend I learned so much. Sifu Kevin is a wealth of knowledge & talent. Had a incredible time meeting everyone and training with them.The ride home was quiet and gave me time to digest all the information, I look foward to training with everyone in the future.
Thanks to all.

yu shan

03-22-2006, 09:34 AM

Well I will begin with an zhang. This is a very nice method of building your sensitivity to perceive your opponents intentions. I thought that I was pretty good at this anyway, but this pressing palms method has really helped hone my level of sensitivity. It really is an amazing little exercise. We free flowed from one technique to the next, unless you came to a throw and they were brutal. For instance the "carrying the basket", there was no good way to fall on this one. The form we learned was short but full of material, and very good material. It covered just about everything you needed to know as a beginner/intermediate student. (kicks, punches, chin na and throws) This is a good form for kids and adults, we had a 12 year old in attendance, he picked up the information just as well as the adults. I will be experimenting with an zhang to encompass previously taught material.

Kao Da- Kevin spent some quality time with Oso, Shifu Mike Courcelle and myself on the structure of presenting Kao Da training. I had been taught most of these but Kevin added a few I had never seen, plus he put some spice into the ones I knew. He helped us put them in an order that made more sense. I pride myself with Kao Da training I personally think it is an essential part of Mantis Boxing.

This was a very good training weekend. There was no time for our usual fine dinners together due to late nights of training and all of us were basically gased.

Thanks Shibo for all your quality time and knowledge, we look forward to the next one.

Oso

03-27-2006, 08:15 AM

feimantis

03-27-2006, 10:26 AM

I really enjoyed the seminar. It is really refreshing to have a form with drills and intent, a nice change from my old style. I made a commitment about 6 months ago to stick with Pong Lai and this just reinforces my decision to only train Pong Lai.

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 02:39 PM

I am very intimate with this 18 Lohan form.

It has a long history.

It comes from the Wah Quan line, they developed it from Shaolin 18 Lohan and then Shaolin adopted it.
This was done back before the Yuan Dynasty.

It is a two person form.

It has many secret things in it.

For example: the first five moves are the Five Elements:
pi - metal, tsuan - water, beng - wood, pao - fire, and heng - earth.

It is has these 5 elements like Xing Yi and features many moves similar to the 10-12 animals also seen in Xing Yi.

I can teach you a lot about this form, I have been doing it for over 10 years.

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 02:41 PM

Shibo:

This might be stating the obvious but...

In reviewing last weekends material I have also gone back and reviewed the Ba Bu Lien Hua (sp?) tape and am refreshing myself on the drills from there.

I see a very obvious continuity in training progression and methodology betwixt the two.

Could you elaborate more on the origins of both of these sets and how they relate to each other?

That set comes from the Wah Quan line as well, and it is also a two person form.

You can get vcds of both forms, and the two person versions (4 vcds) from Plumflower's site.

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 02:44 PM

Oso

03-30-2006, 03:58 PM

That set comes from the Wah Quan line as well, and it is also a two person form.

You can get vcds of both forms, and the two person versions (4 vcds) from Plumflower's site.

Thanks. Kevin did a video of it about 2 years ago with solo, 2 person, application and drills. It's the best tape/dvd of kung fu instruction I've ever seen.

mantis108

03-30-2006, 04:45 PM

If memory serves, I think Kevin mentioned this Ba Bu Lian Huan is from Eagle Claw Fanzi when he visited me a few years ago. Going through the form, I would have to say that it does have traits that found in the Fanzi style that I am familiar with. What's interesting is the closing move (single stance torso bent almost like a bow). This move I believe is an Eagle Claw influenced move. In fact, it does look like an Eagle with the wings spreaded and gliding in the air (it's a head butt as an application btw). The Fanzi that I am familiar with has similar closing move but the torso is not bent. It is rather a step back into position. So...

Caveat: I personally don't take anything written after 1940s about anything Henan Shaolin Temple as reliable source. I think the modern Henan Shaolin temple organization has literally reinvented its "martial tradition".

Mantis108

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 06:02 PM

Cool.

Both forms are great forms, indeed.

Well, so what's his lineage?
Who taught him these two forms and who do they trace back to?

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 06:05 PM

If memory serves, I think Kevin mentioned this Ba Bu Lian Huan is from Eagle Claw Fanzi when he visited me a few years ago. Going through the form, I would have to say that it does have traits that found in the Fanzi style that I am familiar with. What's interesting is the closing move (single stance torso bent almost like a bow). This move I believe is an Eagle Claw influenced move. In fact, it does look like an Eagle with the wings spreaded and gliding in the air (it's a head butt as an application btw). The Fanzi that I am familiar with has similar closing move but the torso is not bent. It is rather a step back into position. So...

Mantis108

Hmm, Eagle Claw absorbed a lot of forms and applied their techniques to them.
I know they do this Ba Bu Lien Huan form, but it is found earlier in lineages from Wah Quan. also, some Tong Bei schools include this form in their curriculum as well (fantzi is essentially derived from Tong Bei).
The eagle claw style version has an extended ending to the form that they added which is not found in the original Wah Quan style version of the form.

Sal Canzonieri

03-30-2006, 06:10 PM

Also this 18 Lohan form can be done as all shuai jiao takedowns, besides as like Xing Yi.

So, is his instructional tape/dvd available for sale or it is only for his students?
I'm always interested in checking out other people's take on this form.

Oso

03-30-2006, 07:15 PM

Sal, I'm pretty sure it's available to anyone who wants to buy it.

Shoot him a PM. Although, I think maybe he has family visiting now and may be busy.

I have not purchased too many martial videos...after the first half dozen or so that were the same lackluster sort of production I didn't bother...but Kevin has put together an extremely nice tape. Also has the best (maybe the only) jazz and salsa soundtrack an a kung fu tape. :)

the version of 18 Hands that Shibo taught us also ended with the same 'eagle' posture.

We did not learn the 2 person. We learned the solo friday night and then spent the rest of the weekend working application. There were several throws.

K.Brazier

04-05-2006, 07:09 PM

Sal,
I moved to taiwan in 1989 to continue my training of Mantis Boxing under Shi Zhengzhong. More here...

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/shizheng.htm

He teaches mainly Mantis boxing.
This move was encouraged by my first Mantis shifu Art D. He is the shifu of Shang Wu farms that has been recently mentioned on some other thread.
BTW, I have done live in training with him since 1988 until I left for Tawian.
I lived in his home and trained on a daily basis with him and his other students.

I can't say enough about this man who has been an inspiration to myself and others over theyears, but ....

It is usually easier to teach the shaolin 8 step and 18 hands form before teaching Mantis.

These forms are well known in Taiwan having been brought here by several teachers from China after ww2.
Another shifu I had in Taiwan, Wang Shuming from Beijing, also taught shaolin 8 Step.

My Shaolin 8 Step is being transferred to dvd format and will soon be available again along with some new productions that I am working on.

I do teach the 2 person sets, but at this seminar wanted to approach the form from a different angle so we just drilled the apps.

Oso

04-05-2006, 07:16 PM

I do teach the 2 person sets, but at this seminar wanted to approach the form from a different angle so we just drilled the apps.

which, having done mostly 2 person 8 Step shed a lot of light on the 8 step form for me...I think. ;)

Sal Canzonieri

04-05-2006, 08:31 PM

K.Brazier

05-18-2006, 06:49 AM

"When did Cai Longyun create these forms then?"

I do not know if he did or not.

Here is the info on my dvd. I will be putting this up on my webpage soon.

Babu Lien Huan:
The video contains the following:
-solo form
-partner version which you can see here...click
-applications from the form.
-8 two man drills from the form
-4 two man kicking drills...
A. 3 connected kicks
B. low pull round kick
C. sprouting kick with plucking hand
D. sprouting kick with deng ta takedown and rolling hand escape
-4 two man hand drills of three punches each:
A. Outer hanging hand
B.Inner adding punch
C.lift-hug-add a punch
D.rolling punch
I also include themethod of combining these 4 punching drills into flow exercises so you can see how move from one drill to combining all 4 drills together.
-4 two man "kao da" This is pounding of the arms, legs and body.It is the first stage of Mantis striking and takedowns.
-3 takedowns, which includes the above mentioned hand techniques and how they are used for takedowns.
-appendix
A.solo form with technique names in English and Chinese on each picture in freeze frame style
B. the same for the partner form.

kevinbrazier@yahoo.com