Ya'll check me on this

[Oso]

At the tournament I hosted recently, there was a cute little Chinese lady who came out to do some Tai Chi. I only caught a bit of her forms but they looked good (as much as I am a judge of tai chi...NOT). A real spitfire and you could see how excited she was to be doing her thing.

But, anyway, K.Brazier was there an struck up a conversation with her as she didn't speak very much english. Kevin then introduces me to her telling me she wants to teach and I should talk to her about teaching in my school. So, I talk with her and her husband (he's caucasian and interpreted for us) and the end result is we've met several times at my school to discuss details about her teaching out of it.

It's been a little wierd and the teacher and her husband have done a lot of conferring in chinese and such and they are accepting the deal but seem a little put off.

So...here's my offer to them:

They will start classes the beginning of April. Two one hour classes a week with the option to hold weekend classes. I have had a 5:30-6:30 Tu/Thur time slot that I've held open for either expanding kids classes or something like this. So, they are getting a decent after work time slot.

I will be putting a page up on my website and having a nice flyer done up (by way of Ming Yue of course) to put on the front window of the school and for them to distribute as they wish. I will pay the cost of flyers and design work.

I will not charge them anything for the month of April. I would like them to get a good start w/o worrying about money.

After that, I've offered them a 70/30 split. 30% to me, 70% for them on whatever they end up charging for classes.



I feel like I'm offering a pretty sweet deal for her to get started teaching but they seemed to balk at the %. Maybe it's a cultural thing I'm not getting.

I'm wavering on backing up to 80/20 but she won't find that anywhere in town...and not with the PR work I'm going to try and do for her. One habit I'm trying to get away from is selling myself short as a martial artist and teacher. I feel my deal is fair but I do think that this will be a valuable addition to my school overall and 20% is still additional income on time I'm not using right now.

Input????

[yutyeesam]

To echo Chris, what you offered is more than fair. If there is a percentage happening, this is a negotiation. I know it doesn't seem friendly, but it'd be in your best interest to have some sort of contract between you and them.

You could have it in a tier system, where you get a higher percentage as they grow. So, you could, for example, say 80-20 for the first $500 gross (5 students), then after that, 75-25 until they get $1000 (10 students), and anything more than 10 students would be a 70-30.

Or you could work backwards, and say that you'll start with 70-30, and as their program grows to 10 students, that will turn to 75-25.

And if they're not going to help with marketing, and you're doing all of it, then your percentage IMO should be way higher. Getting people to the door for a program is critical, as Tai Chi does not sell itself. Why should someone do Tai Chi with them, when there's another Tai Chi teacher in town with a school for 20 years?

And if you're sacrificing a timeslot opportunity to teach more kids, to a Tai Chi class, that's a huge financial sacrifice. Your job is to break down to these people the monetary logistics of the whole situation. It's important to help these folks understand the nature and process of martial arts business in America.

Just some initial thoughts.
-123

[Oso]

it may not be balking, and it just may be the husband, hard for me to read her for sure.
I do tend to be too generous in my dealings with other people...part of the reason I got screwed by my 'partner' in the tournament.


(as my teacher says, in business it's easy to be hard first and a gentleman later, very difficult to do it the other way around...)

true.

70/30 is what I had with the city for 3 years at the rec center. It's also the same deal a buddy of mine has in another NC city with a rec center. So, it seemed fair to start there.

True, I don't know what she is like as a teacher and I will be drawing up an aggreement w/ opt out clauses for both of us.



To echo Chris, what you offered is more than fair. If there is a percentage happening, this is a negotiation. I know it doesn't seem friendly, but it'd be in your best interest to have some sort of contract between you and them.

You could have it in a tier system, where you get a higher percentage as they grow. So, you could, for example, say 80-20 for the first $500 gross (5 students), then after that, 75-25 until they get $1000 (10 students), and anything more than 10 students would be a 70-30.

numbers like won't happen fast in this town. so, I'm not going to burden either of us with a system that requires too much thought. there are a number of tai chi teachers as well as oodles of yoga and we even now having something called a 'cosmic chi center' :rolleyes: they just dropped of flyers at my school yesterday.

but anyway, this town is chock full of schools, mostly crap.

Or you could work backwards, and say that you'll start with 70-30, and as their program grows to 10 students, that will turn to 75-25.

And if they're not going to help with marketing, and you're doing all of it, then your percentage IMO should be way higher. Getting people to the door for a program is critical, as Tai Chi does not sell itself. Why should someone do Tai Chi with them, when there's another Tai Chi teacher in town with a school for 20 years?

good point. All I'm going to do is get a good looking flyer up and a web page up. I'm not going to do any print ads or even post a flyer anywhere but the front of my school.

And if you're sacrificing a timeslot opportunity to teach more kids, to a Tai Chi class, that's a huge financial sacrifice.

Not at this point. I'm very small, about 20 students 5 of them kids. I have two of my students teaching kids and one of my early goals/rules is that I would never have more than a 4/1 ratio of kids to adult teacher. I don't have another student ready or willing to take on a teaching role for a while so I can only accept another 3 kids anyway. IF she can pull this off then I stand to make more money in that timeslot than I would myself.

Your job is to break down to these people the monetary logistics of the whole situation. It's important to help these folks understand the nature and process of martial arts business in America.

I've tried to. They are somewhat ignorant of the situation. I told them to check around and see what others are charging for tai chi and I told them to see what other options they had for spaces.

I still wish to feel like I'm helping. And, I do feel some of the traditional sense that she is senior simply because she is older than me...and, quite likely has been training longer. I don't always meet people in the martial world that engender that response but this lady does.


Just some initial thoughts.
-123

thanks a lot

I appreciate both your thoughts and input on this.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

50/50 is fair and equitable. Don't bother doing it for less, it will only be a distraction which will take away your energy from your regular business. Ask Chris Jurak if I know my sh1t. He'll agree. Bad business move to do anything else. Who needs who more?

[David Jamieson]

oso-

the more you soften, the more you will be stepped on.

listen to parella, i think that though you might find it 'hard' it is correct.

are they paying rent? no
are they paying the utilities? no
are they taking any risk? no

don't be duped.
the risk is all yours dude and the assumption of risk allocates you as teh one who calls the shots.
If not, keep that spot open to expand your kids classes.

also, don't draw up anything. That should be done by someone with legal savvy.

[Oso]

Lama Pai Sifu: with all due respect, you know your sh1t in your environment. 50/50 won't fly down here. I wouldn't have taken that at the rec center and I wouldn't expect anyone else to take it.

DJ: I hear you and I'm going to stick firm to my initial offer of 70/30 and the rest of what I said I would do for her. I've made it clear about what I was offering and no more. It will be her responsibility to make it work. I think she is pretty legit. K. Brazier gave her tai chi a thumbs up; it will be up to her to be able to teach. But, overall, I think this will broaden the image of my school to the public and create more word of mouth about AMA.

As far as an agreement, it will simply be a statement of what we are agreeing on as far as times and fees.

[hskwarrior]

whats up bear (oso)

i would have to agree with everyone here.

i say you have the location, they don't. you are in full power to negotiate the terms and it is up to them to accept it or not. you are totally in power in the situation, they want your help, to use your school and your space.

NOT!!!!! you set the rules, how much to split, and etc etc, if they don't agree with it then they can find another place to teach.

you should never let someone come into your school and tell you how things will run. never.

buts its all your call.

peace
hsk

[yu shan]

Oso, I agree with these guys. Do not sell yourself short. Be firm with your expectations. 70/30 is more than fair, she is walking into a real sweet deal if you ask me. She has not been in the States very long if I remember correctly. Who knows, she might have come from the ole train for free in the park deal back in China. I did see her perform her taiji and it was darn good, plus her bubbly personality was quite attractive. I think she would bring good things to your school. I have seen in my kf teaching, that peeps seem to respect more when they are paying more. JMO

[Oso]

thanks.

I don't think I've given the impression that they were calling the shots.

just that they reacted, through ignorance, to the terms in a seemingly negative way.

So, I wanted to get an outside POV on those terms just to make sure I was being fair.

Those other pov's are good as they have served to help me solidify my stance of what I believe is right.

[yenhoi]

Thats a juciy time slot to just give away. 30% of $0 is still $0.:D

Do you get free lessons at least?

:eek:

[Oso]

well, as I said, I need more people willing to teach kids before I can open up another time slot (that's not going to happen anytime soon) and I still have 3 spots for kids on M/W before I would need to anyway.

Haven't asked about free lessons because I don't think I want to commit the time to practice something else.

thanks.

[spiralstair]

Hi Oso,
I recommend you keep the time slot. Give her a late time, after your night class, when you'd usually be closed. The early time slot can rapidily have value for you if you decide to teach children in the future. Teaching kids is the way to grow a good financial base for your school, and if you decide to get around to it, that slot is crucial.
The T'ai chi types she'll attract will still come later in the evening, so you won't be causing any hardship there. Then any extra income her class generates for you is "gravy" since you'd usually be closed anyway, and the % you work out isn't so important.
Good Luck

[David Jamieson]

I would think the preferred timeslot for tai chi practice would be early mornings or in the magic hour.

as for learning the postures, I think that can be done at any time of day really, but teh actual practice is beneficial for most in the early morning and during the time of the sun going down.

don't ask me why, it's an earth energy thing and long time pracs could probably better describe the why's about it.

[Oso]

My class runs from 6:30-8:30 Mon~Thur and occasional fridays. Very few people down here want to train that late.
I have noticed that northern schools (northern USA) do have training classes later in the evening. I've ascribed that to commuting/traffic issues. ?????

As far as kids classes, I've already mentioned my personal restrictions on how I want those classes to be. I've taught many a kids class where there were 1 or two teachers for 15-20+ kids. I don't like it, the kids don't really learn much. It's not the way I'm going to run a program though it flies in the face of what most kids programs are. I've still got room for growth in the one class and statistically (for my school) by the time I'm full there, I should have another senior student ready to start teaching and hopefully be able to move out of my dinky 800 s.f. school.

I've already told her we could arrange something for any time in the daytime but she doesn't drive so her husband, a builder, has to bring her after work.

DJ: I've gotten the most of my tai chi/chi kung in the AM. When I do it at night, I'm up all night.

*edit* actually, i guess that means I'm getting it good at night as well...

[Judge Pen]

DJ: I've gotten the most of my tai chi/chi kung in the AM. When I do it at night, I'm up all night.

Slightly OT, but if I do my tai chi in the morning, its like a double-shot of expresso (w/out the caffenie side-effects) but when I do it at night it has the opposite effect; I sleep like a log. I thought it was interesting that you have had a different experience.

[Oso]

That's because my chi is stronger than your chi.

[wushu24]

Hi,
I'm new to the forums. I was reading this post and wondered why you chose your offered deal over paying her as an instructor? I think the deal you offered her is a very nice one (for her) and she probably won't find a better offer in town.

At our school, we pay our instructors per hour of teaching, no matter what they teach. However our school is probably a little different in the fact that we have no "specialty" instructors per se, currently just about everyone is capable of teaching our entire curriculum.

I recently took over (with a partner) my martial arts school, so I'm still learning all about business management, etc. My question is purely out of curiosity and a hope for learning. :)

[Oso]

Hi wushu24, welcome.

I'm not ready to have 'employees yet. that's a whole nuther set of issues I'm not ready to tackle as a part time school owner.

[mantis108]

Not that I would doubt Kevin and you all about the capacity of this lady but someone who's good at performing forms or doing something good doesn't mean that he/she would be a good teacher (not that I doubt her abilities). Now especially in this case she has a handicap in not able to speak sufficient amount of English to communicate comfortably with you (except with her husband). I found this somewhat troubling. The reason is that last year I recommend my Fanzi friend who doesn't speak good English to teach a class with the City. He end up having some students who are interested but eventually drop off. After 3 months, he decided to quit. Part of the problem was the communication difficulties. Taiji is an intricate and complicated art. Without reasonable communication skill it is frustrating if not impossible to learn for novice. So I don't see this being an asset to your organization at this point. But you guys know the situation better so...

The deal that you offered them is more than fair IMHO. After running my own club here with the City, I understand the value of "free lunch" which btw doesn't exist in the real world. So I don't think your friends there have received their wake up call yet. Welcome to North America for your friends. ;) :) They should appreciate the helping hand.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mickey]

Greetings everyone,

Oso,

Inviting someone to teach, sight unseen, is a little strange to me. You are putting your reputation on the line for this person. Why take that risk by giving her prime time?

With regard to the time, I think you are offering a bit too much. This person does not come with a following at all. There is no guarantee that she will be able to pack the people in during those times that you offer.

More with regard to time:

One hour classes are kinda okay to keep money coming in. If she is a real serious practitioner the one hour slots will not be really adequate for her. Most serious practitioners need a good block of time to really transmit. I suggest that you give her Saturday mornings from 6 to 11 or from 7 to 11. This would give her time to transmit, weed out the wannabees, and develop a strong student core.

One day a week is often best when starting out.

The money aspect seems fair. The right to study with her for free (if she is that good) is also fair.

mickey

P.S.: Tai Chi may not be her real style. Most Mainland Chinese coaches have to learn the stardard versions. I call it "eating bitter" (please forgive me Tai Chi guys). She may be using that for income. She may know something that is of more interest to you. ASK QUESTIONS!!!

[Oso]

Robert, thanks. Kevin's comment to me about her was that her teacher really made her practice the basics a lot. She is a very animated person and as I said is obviously very excited about being able to teach and do her thing.

I realize that the language barrier is an issue. But, honestly, in this town, I think it's a bonus. Not that there are ton's of chinese speaking people but all the

I do hear all of you...basically where I am is this:

I've had several helping hands extended to me over the last 5 years:

A very accomodating Rec Center Director who gave me a key and the run of the place when other events weren't happening and didn't b!tch when I was late paying her my 30% because I needed to buy food or fill up the gas tank.

A local mentor with 40+ years in the martial arts and 25 years of school ownership who, in addition to letting me bend his ear for advice has let me use his school numerous times early on for teaching and gave me about $400 in brand new puzzle mats when I finally moved into a place.

Another person who donated about $1800 dollars worth of folding mats, used but in great condition.

And yet another person who is making sure the bills are paid when tuition doesn't make the ends meet.

What I feel is that I have an opportunity to repay the kindness that has come my way by helping this lady get a start.

It really seems like she is old school tai chi and if I can help her get a foothold amongst the charlatans in this town then even if I get burned somehow, I've done my duty.

[Oso]

Greetings everyone,

Oso,

Inviting someone to teach, sight unseen, is a little strange to me. You are putting your reputation on the line for this person. Why take that risk by giving her prime time?

Well, for one, as I said, my kung fu uncle gave her the thumbs up.
For two, I don't anticipate needing that time slot before I choose to move locations.
Part of the plan for moving includes finding a place w/ two rooms for multiple classes in the same time slot.

With regard to the time, I think you are offering a bit too much. This person does not come with a following at all. There is no guarantee that she will be able to pack the people in during those times that you offer.

Everyone has to start somewhere, right?

More with regard to time:

One hour classes are kinda okay to keep money coming in. If she is a real serious practitioner the one hour slots will not be really adequate for her. Most serious practitioners need a good block of time to really transmit. I suggest that you give her Saturday mornings from 6 to 11 or from 7 to 11. This would give her time to transmit, weed out the wannabees, and develop a strong student core.

I agree on the time...all my classes are 2 hours long except for kids. As I said, the time I gave her was in reserve for kids but I'm not growing as fast as I would like. Based on the last 4.5 years of growth, I don't see me needing that slot for anything within the next year.

I already have time blocked on saturday mornings: strength training, open floor, Lion and sparring are 9-1 or so. I've offered her time outside of that.


One day a week is often best when starting out.

The money aspect seems fair. The right to study with her for free (if she is that good) is also fair.

mickey

P.S.: Tai Chi may not be her real style. Most Mainland Chinese coaches have to learn the stardard versions. I call it "eating bitter" (please forgive me Tai Chi guys). She may be using that for income. She may know something that is of more interest to you. ASK QUESTIONS!!!

I'd actually thought of that already and figured I would bide my time a bid and watch her to see if there was something else to her.