Statement About Lineage Effectiveness...

[JoeJacari]

The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective, according to many web searches, message boards,
discussions, etc.

Has anyone ever felt the power, energy, technique, form and Chi Sau
of the Ken Chung school?

How would traditional/classical Wing Chun of the Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
school of fighting fare against some of the people that mix other styles
like boxing, kickboxing, Thai Boxing, the grappling arts with their Wing Chun.

I tend to think that in a street situation where two people meet and they both
don't know the other's style, classical/traditional Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
Wing Chun will prevail.

I noticed a mixed bag on those video links I posted. Some people thought they
were pretty good, while others were unimpressed.

I am impressed with the amount of good reputation traditional Wing Chung has.

I feel that the hands proffered by disciples of the classical way are superior.

Anyone ever try their sloppy, Chunky Soup Beef Stew mix of martial arts style
against a true practioner of the classical way? Hmm? Probably not, or there
would be more respect for the old-school traditional Wing Chun players.

Food for thought, grounds for further research!

[Fajing]

I tend to think that in a street situation where two people meet and they both don't know the other's style, classical/traditional Ken Chung/Carl DechiaraWing Chun will prevail!

Uhhh....why exactly...:confused:

[AndrewS]

The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective, according to many web searches, message boards,
discussions, etc.


According to marketing and brainwashed students . . .

I wonder why this garbage keeps coming up around Carl; he's seemed fairly respectful in public when he's been on this board.

Are you authorized to issue open challenges for your teacher?

Andrew

[Mr Punch]

Holy moly! Flashback to 2001!

It's the ghost of Red5! Wondered why he hadn't been around for a long time!:D

[robu]

The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective, according to many web searches, message boards,
discussions, etc.


Is that so? According to web searches? How about actual results?
Competing and winning against world class fighters. Challenge fights. Street fights etc. Could you please tell us about these?


How would traditional/classical Wing Chun of the Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
school of fighting fare against some of the people that mix other styles
like boxing, kickboxing, Thai Boxing, the grappling arts with their Wing Chun.


Why don't you do some fighting and let us know. There are a lot of competitions all over the place. UFC, Pride, K1 etc being the most prestigious.



I tend to think that in a street situation where two people meet and they both
don't know the other's style, classical/traditional Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
Wing Chun will prevail.


I tend to think that the world is flat. I'm sure my idea of the world will prevail and everyone will see the error in their ways.



I am impressed with the amount of good reputation traditional Wing Chung has.

I feel that the hands proffered by disciples of the classical way are superior.


Hallelujah!



Anyone ever try their sloppy, Chunky Soup Beef Stew mix of martial arts style
against a true practioner of the classical way? Hmm? Probably not, or there
would be more respect for the old-school traditional Wing Chun players.

Food for thought, grounds for further research!

Have you tried you stuff against any good fighter with a reputation? Hmm? Probably not, or you would not be off on this tangent.

Food for thought, grounds for some actual fighting?

[ghostofwingchun]

My friend . . . you are either very naive or a troll . . . I will give you benefit of doubt . . . please for your sake give these things thought.


The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective, according to many web searches, message boards,
discussions, etc.


I am thinking that it is not good to form opinions . . . any opinion . . . from message boards or forums . . . or websites . . . these can provide information . . . but information can be all sorts of things . . . belief marketing advertisement ranting of follower or fact and anthing in between . . . so what is needed is discernment . . . to separate true from false . . . even the good from the bad . . . in other words we need to do our own work our own research and find out things for ourself . . . a real problem with web is information overload . . . too much information . . . and most of it is worthless if not harmful or detrimental. Please understand I am saying nothing at all negative about any lineage or person . . . this is true about any claim.



Has anyone ever felt the power, energy, technique, form and Chi Sau
of the Ken Chung school?


You can not attribute these things to school . . . they are individual characteristics . . . they come from person . . . from individual . . . you see a school or lineage is not effective or powerful or have good technique or form or anything except a way of training . . . it is individual who does this training . . . how it is done . . . that can produce these things in individual. It is true that some gyms or schools are more successful than others in producing quality practitioners in any martial art . . . this is result however of training approach.



How would traditional/classical Wing Chun of the Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
school of fighting fare against some of the people that mix other styles
like boxing, kickboxing, Thai Boxing, the grappling arts with their Wing Chun.


Style never fight style . . . it is person who always fight person . . . and discounting luck surprise and so on . . . it is better fighter that will win . . . not better style . . . and better fighter depend on who trains harder . . . who trains smarter . . . who has more natural gift . . . and so on. Style versus style is lineage versus lineage and so on is nonsense in my view.



I tend to think that in a street situation where two people meet and they both
don't know the other's style, classical/traditional Ken Chung/Carl Dechiara
Wing Chun will prevail.


What does knowing each other style have to do with anything? . . . here is one . . . sucker puncher will always win . . . lol . . . good fighter does not need surprise . . . he beat you anyway. Many people try to do blackboard comparisons . . . and please excuse me for saying so . . . but people who do this are almost always beginners and ignorant of fighting . . . and they frequent websites forums and so on you mention above . . . lol. . . so you have opinions of uninformed . . . discussing mythical style versus style . . . who will win fight between Loch Ness monster and Yeti . . . lol!



I noticed a mixed bag on those video links I posted. Some people thought they
were pretty good, while others were unimpressed.

I am impressed with the amount of good reputation traditional Wing Chung has.

I feel that the hands proffered by disciples of the classical way are superior.


If you are more interested in some thing then by all means pursue it. What is best exercise routine? Does it not depend on goal of individual?



Anyone ever try their sloppy, Chunky Soup Beef Stew mix of martial arts style
against a true practioner of the classical way? Hmm? Probably not, or there
would be more respect for the old-school traditional Wing Chun players.

Food for thought, grounds for further research!

I find it interesting that you keep trying to insult others . . . by disparaging references to what they do . . . my view is that people who need to insult others are only trying to cover their own insecurity . . . if you in all your experience do not feel need to cross train then do not do it. And to be blunt . . . because I am thinking that some times subtlty is lost . . . lol . . . that it is not opinions that matter . . . or arm chair or blackboard msuings that matter . . . it is individual experience and evidence that matters . . . if some one share their experience this is some thing real and worth listening to . . . to share musings is emptiness . . . and while experience is useful it does not prove what is right for one is right for all . . . this can only be found for oneself . . . by direct experience. So I respect experience . . . and the opinions of experienced . . . whether it agree with me or not . . . because it is real . . . and because person who take risks and work hard to gain experience has earned respect . . . musings of yeti versus nessie is kid stuff.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Matrix]

The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective, according to many web searches, message boards,
discussions, etc. Have you searched this forum? :rolleyes:

[JoeJacari]

Very good input from all of the posters on this site.

Very good indeed!

I feel the wrath and anger of some, and sense a bit of cautiousness
as people's antennae bristle at the possibility that there is still real, serious
old school Wing Chun out there.

You see, people don't want fall for the fact that you can train grappling ten
years and someone like Frank Shamrock or a classical Wing Chun player
can come in with one, devastating strike or Flying Fist of Buddha and
wreck, totally destroy the ground game plan on a soft, mat surface.

Why don't you try to jump up and flop into the guard on the street or a parking
lot?

Ever see a dude's head bounce off the cement as he tries some fancy schmancy
free-stylin' outside of the safe and secure confines of a padded, roll mat?

Traditional Wing Chun is gaining further respect. It'll come around again.
People will pay homage to the old, hard-won truths of combat.

It's the flavor-of-the-month or martials arts du jure people that I raise my eyebrows to. They say, "Oh, did you see so and so's half-guard." Or, "Bobby
so and so has a good right hook." Or, "Sally this or that knows a Thai Boxing-style flying knee kick" or whatever.

Years folks! Years and years and hours and hours of Fu (work).
Kung Fu IS hard work! People don't want that. They want the pill, the magic
potion, the shortcut to martial arts invincibility.

Like Wong Sheung Leung said, "better to master the art of invisibility."

And this is PRECISELY what I'm talking about.

A man throws down his gi after 17 years of sloppiness and sulks off into the night.
We find him weeping and ask him this question in humility and our humanity:
"Why?" Why on earth are you so sullen and downtrodden? Is it that you've chased the dragon for too many years? Was it the secret technique to destroy your opponent that your teacher promised you and you believed it for 17 years only to discover there is no such thing as the Tooth Fairy?

Think about this gentlemen. Think long and hard because I trust your sincerity.

I trust that all of you are seeking the truth and give everyone the benefit of the doubt out of respect for what they know (good and bad).

Yours truly

--J. Jacari

[Buddha_Fist]

He's on drugs!

[Matrix]

I feel the wrath and anger of some, No anger here brother. :cool:

[Chum Kil]

JJ,

You sound pretty brainwashed to me. Are you Red5Angel in disguise? You need to get out more often, or is this what your Sifu tells you.

[JoeJacari]

John says:

You sound pretty brainwashed to me. Are you Red5Angel in disguise? You need to get out more often, or is this what your Sifu tells you.

--John

John:

I fully respect where you're coming from. I hear it all of the time and it's not your fault. We've all been sold a bill of goods in Western Civilization.

Asian fighting arts have been around for centuries. Millenia even. This isn't some angel or sifu saying this, this is HISTORY!

How can you refute history? Hmm? Well, there's historical revisionism and then there's just plain old invincible ignorance. You seem guilty of niether but like I said, we've all been inculturated into the Western mindset since we were babies.

Take, for instance, leaping around. Ever see someone start leaping around his/her apponent right before or during a fight sequence? Probably not, but it's effective. We've been conditioned culturally not to accept that sort of behavior as not manly or eccentric or oddball or whatever.

You know what happens if you couple that with something like a classical Mantis style Kung Fu? You get some pretty unpredictable yet time-tested martial arts prowess in action. And the action is in the reaction because if you can preordain the reaction for just a fraction of a second, you will have maximum satisfaction by fracturing his neck with a chop.

Sifu says this or sifu says that. I believe it depending on his/her lineage. This is the guaratee that what you are getting is both:

A. authentic.
B. not watered down.
C. Time-tested over centuries of combat.

Even Steven Seagal says this. He says that if you are in a small town, leave. Seek opportunities with great masters and guros in places like LA, San Francisco, New York and Miami.

Who am I to question the wisdom of others who've paved the way through hard work and determination.

Like the saying goes, "Success is 90% perspiration and 10% determination."

I love this forum.

Thanks for your input everyone!

--J. Jacari

[ghostofwingchun]

Many martial arts have been around for a long time . . . this is true . . . however being around for long time does not say anything good or bad about the art's potential usefulness . . . some seem to think that only arts go through some sort of Darwinian process . . . that good survive and poor die off . . . and so if have old art this proves it is a good art . . . but this is true only when there is competition between arts . . . arts that are isolated can survive because of isolation . . . same with animal species in evolution . . . if animals live on island with no natural predators they will survive . . . add predator and they are wiped out. I am thinking there is a very real question about TCMAs . . . will they survive in face of today's challenge . . . the introduction of new predators . . . or arts . . . and training methods . . . into martial environment. My view is that TCMAs are for most part not very good . . . regardless of stories of great masters and incredible deeds . . . I am thinking most TCMA is fluff and bluff . . . with very few good arts . . . and very few good fighters. It is interesting that Bruce Lee said same thing many years ago . . . but who listens to him . . . lol. Today I am thinking empty hand fighting MA is developing by leaps and bounds. . . with fighters at levels never seen before . . . because of open world competition . . . because of ability to share info and training . . . and so on . . . but stories about the greatness of past generations . . . of the wonders of Atlantis will always have appeal to some.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Matrix]

Sifu says this or sifu says that. I believe it depending on his/her lineage. This is the guaratee that what you are getting is both:

A. authentic.
B. not watered down.
C. Time-tested over centuries of combat.

Even Steven Seagal says this. Joe,

Let me start out by saying that I appreciate your enthusiasm. Don't ever lose that quality.
I would just caution you about making serious decisions based on lineage alone, in spite of what Steven Seagal may have said. From my experience, I have seen good and bad in most lineages.
We can all learn from each other, we just need to guard against coming out with statements such as "My lineage is the Most effective". Otherwise we end up bickering instead of sharing knowledge.

[JoeJacari]

Cool, it's cool.

I'm down with your words.

You're making sense and all that.

I would just ask that you read my words, ponder them, integrate them
into your own experience and offer a rebuttal.

I'm willing to accept evolutionary leaps in MA prowess. Sure.

I'm just saying there's legit stuff out there that isn't flavor of the month and
all that.

Thanks for the input.

Soldier on!

--J. Jacari

[Keng Geng]

Why not perform a search in this forum for Carl Dechiara and read what people have said about him or to him. I recall his name appearing quite a bit on this forum some time ago.

[Matrix]

In fact, Carl was posting here a few times himself.
His name came up when someone posted some video clips of Carl in action.

[VingDragon]

Seek opportunities with great masters and guros in places like LA, San Francisco, New York and Miami
I don't think it is a good idea. There is no guaranty that you'll find a good teacher over there.

[Liddel]

Is this "Carl" the gentleman ive seen in vids wearing a red hat ? or am i thinking of another guy.....

Id like to also make the point that lineage is only good if it suits your purpose....

Each one can have more solid areas or good and "not so good" (:D ) points,
like matrix pointed out (good call :rolleyes: )

In what respect do you think it makes a difference for arguments sake ?

What makes "Carl" so worth while in your mind ?

If one asked the question in the 50's "how long should it take for you to complete Sil Lim Tao, while practising ?"

Leung Shun might say 1 min
Wong Shun Leung may say 2 mins
TST may say 3 mins
Lok Yiu would say 4 mins
GM Ip may say 5 mins.

Who is right and who is wrong ? (this is a question my sifu asked each one of these people and these are ruffly the answers he got)

Each persons answer would depend on thier aim/purpose of doing Sil Lim Tao, which can be different from person to person.

Lok Yiu taught my Sifu Chum Kui with one kick in the last section but when he saw GM Ip practising he had Two kicks...years later he taught me CK with two kicks.

Who is better who is worse ? or are they just different ?

I just raise these points because i am interested to hear what your point is regarding Proper lineage and what that means for someone learning from these individuals lines.....

[JoeJacari]

I remember speaking to a student of Ken Chung's a few years back.



Siu Lim Tao should take 1 hour.




Why the disparity between all of the aforementioned few minutes and KC?


LINEAGE MY FRIENDS!

[Matrix]

Is this "Carl" the gentleman ive seen in vids wearing a red hat ? or am i thinking of another guy.....Yes, he's the one with the red hat in the vids.

As for the amount of time to complete SLT, while I have heard of a range of times to complete the first form, I would just say that it would be better to do the form correctly in 5 minutes than to do it incorrectly in 15 minutes. Time is not the primary factor in IMO. Having said that, slowing the form down does have it's advantages as long as everything else is in place.

[Liddel]

Damm Computers....See next post !

[Liddel]

Swing.......and a miss.

Wow, i wasnt looking for a literal answer to the question
"how long should it take to to complete SLT?"

Thanks 4 the info though.

I was trying to get to the heart of why JoeJacari thinks -
"The Traditional Ken Chung lineage of disciple Carl Dechiara is supposed
to be the MOST effective"

When like i mentioned people like Leung Shun,Wong Shun Leung, TST ,Lok Yiu and GM Ip had different ideas on certain aspects of the art.

What makes one better than the others ? as JoeJacari is announcing.

My Sifu was best friends with WSL, he learnt from Lok Yiu and Gm Ip and he talked every day with TST. so he has a little bit of everyone. Subsequently im not biased towards any ONE lineage, i would just like to discuss JoeJacari's REASONS :rolleyes: .

Personally i think his footwork needs work, but i have only seen him doing drills to be fair.:o

[splinter]

Uh, ok, I know I don't post here too often, but I'm going to go ahead and say this...

While the originator of this thread could be genuine in what he's claiming, I have touble thinking that anyone is actually that dense.

There have been some terrific explanations as to why lineage isn't all that important, and yet he has essentially ignored them all.

So, I thought I'd poing out that there's probably a 99% chance that this guy's a troll.

[JoeJacari]

Lineage means:

1. You are getting good purity.

2. Good lineage = good inheritance

3. Not everyone learned true Kung Fu

4. He who learned true KF and passes it on passes on the truth

5. Poor lineage = perpetuality of bad form/habits and amplification of such

6. Etc., etc., etc.


Best wishes friends!

--J. Jacari

[Keng Geng]

Lineage means:

1. You are getting good purity.
Not if you're from a "poor" lineage.



2. Good lineage = good inheritance
Not if you're a bad student of a "good" lineage.



3. Not everyone learned true Kung Fu
Especially if one came from a "poor" lineage or if one was a bad student of a "good" lineage.



4. He who learned true KF and passes it on passes on the truth
True KF can only be passed if intrepreted and assimilated.



5. Poor lineage = perpetuality of bad form/habits and amplification of such
Every lineage, good or poor has truth to offer. Poor lineage can result in a good kung fu practices if interpreted.

[planetwc]

Joe,

Ken has not said an hour. More like 20 minutes. If YOU want to take longer fine.
But approximately 20 minutes or so will be just fine.

As a word of advice...I'd ease up on the lineage trumpeting here. It can certainly be exciting to get involved in a new pursuit like training WC. Conserve your energy for when the going gets tough and you reach plateaus. Better to perservere and plow on through to the next level then burning out, after your initial lineage lust burns out, and it is down to working on the development of your PERSONAL skill in Wing Chun.

Neither Ken or Carl or anyone else within our lineage can grant you magical Wing Chun powers by mere association alone. You are going to have to sweat for it--work it, and keep training year in and year out. You'll find that to be the case whatever your lineage is.

Neither Ken or Carl have a monopoly on Wing Chun skill.

Attempting to rub that into the faces of forum members here is not going to go very well. Several years ago there was another student at one of Carl's schools who came on too strong and talked up Carl to the detriment of others. All in the early stages of his training. He then burned out on Wing Chun and rolled over to MMA and general crosstraining--without a trace of Wing Chun left in the mix.

In the meantime, enjoy your training and have fun. If the training philosophy and methodology of your instructor clicks with you that is great! It should make training the art that much more fun. It's all excitement in the beginning of the hard work.

You'll find though that many others have the same level of excitement and commitment with their own instructors and their own lineages.

print out the following article and refer to it OFTEN.

http://www.wingchun.com/apath.shtml

It really reflects Ken's approach to Wing Chun--I personally went over that article with Ken literally line by line before posting it on my website. So it really does reflect his philosophy with regards to Wing Chun.


I remember speaking to a student of Ken Chung's a few years back.

Siu Lim Tao should take 1 hour.

Why the disparity between all of the aforementioned few minutes and KC?

LINEAGE MY FRIENDS!

[Liddel]

JoeJacari i agree with what you said at FACE value...

"2. Good lineage = good inheritance - sometimes

3. Not everyone learned true Kung Fu - absolutely

4. He who learned true KF and passes it on passes on the truth - not always

5. Poor lineage = perpetuality of bad form/habits and amplification of such" - agreed

but Keng Geng made a good rebuttle which i agree the most with.

Earlier you made a comment about VT or Traditional VT being tried and tested
(as in how it was taught and learnt back then....'traditional'... not TWC as in the style from William Cheung)

So ill take your POV and use it to make my point....

Back in the day - (so its said)
Chan Wah Soon taught Gm Ip (and was also taught by his Sihing, which was essentially a go between of CWS knowledge)
Now CWS you could argue came from a very good lineage right ? DR L J

However CWS was not a very educated man, he had good foundations and good kung fu (seen as by your rationale he came from a good lineage)

But Gm Ip told many people in later years that he gained a higher understanding of VT from Leung Bik whom was taught by the same master as CWS but obviously had some better characteristics, such as - being more educated and closer to his Teacher (who was his father) amoung others.

So essentially These two masters learnt from the same master themselves but had very different outcomes with regard to thier VT.

So in short - My point is that the lineage 'factor' HAS being tried and tested and it has been found 'wanting'.
Yes lineage plays an important part but IMHO there are OTHER 'more important' contributing factors that also come to bear when trying to find a good master to learn from.

Do you see my point ?

(PS - as others have mentioned, the lineage 'DEBATE' is an age old discussion on the net but so far its still 'Civil' which is why im scrathing this itch, even if you are TROLLING as others suspect.)

PEACE :rolleyes:

[JoeJacari]

I didn't think I was coming on strong. I thought I was being frank, direct,
to the point and straight down the middle.

Great posts in response to what I have said. Most informative.

Some of the points you made about the "substance" of true Wing Chun in
all styles resonates as the truth.

Also, about the practitioner taking from a poor lineage and using his genius to
work out the truth seems to ring true.

Maybe the essentialities of Wing Chun have built in truth that shines through to those who plumb its depths through hard work.

When I say lineage I mean not among the different expressions, i.e. Ting, Shueng,
Chung, Boztepe.

I mean people getting a book and starting to modify their own version without having ANY lineage or only a little training and then trying to exploit it.
Would Krav Maga fit this description?

I've seen some very interesting hard and soft expressions that were very effective. I believe in Wing Chun's adaptability.

Great posts! You all know a lot of stuff.

--J. Jacari

[chisauking]

Just quickly here:

I've seen a few good disciples from good sifus \ lineage

I have never ever seen even one good disciple from a chopsuey lineage

[Liddel]

Hey Joe,

You Mentioned earlier -

"I am impressed with the amount of good reputation traditional Wing Chung has.

I feel that the hands proffered by disciples of the classical way are superior."

For my piece of mind could you just clarify what you mean by "traditional" and "classical way".

Im just a bit confused as there are a few different interpritations of these words.
Everyone seems to have different meanings for them, whats your's ?

[JoeJacari]

Good question:

I think "classical" or "traditional" would be

1. Siu Lim Tau
2. Chum Kiu
3. Bil Gee

Using those three forms as taught by Yip Man and his students withouth much modification or changing their spirit.

4. Long Pole
5. Butterfly Swords
6. Non-modified "Jong" and forms on such

Throwing in boxing, grappling, MMA would be moderations that are outside of the style.

That's my version of classical/traditional in a word.

Now, you mentioned someone quitting Wing Chun and going MMA?

If he wants to fight, that's fine, MMA is the way.

If he wants to learn a traditional martial art Wing Chun is great.

I'm still up in the air for self-defense. Is it better to stick with traditional Wing Chun or go MMA style?

Any opinions?

Thanks!

--J. Jacari

[Green Cloud]

JoJacari what are you talking about, all the styles you mentioned are very effective styles and shouldn't be dissmised. Even grappling, I don't care if you don't like to go to the ground it happens and you have to deal with that.

Personaly I like stand up but found myself on my back a few times, not to bring it up but look at william chung when he jumped by that lung ting guy. Don't you think william would have had a better chance if he was aware of how to go into the guard.

That kind of day dreaming of my unbeatable traditional kung fu style gets a lot of guys in trouble. Any way I realy couldn't follow your point exactly:confused:

[fiamacho]

Is Lineage effective ... well it is only as effective as the person doing the Instructing. This is the same for ALL styles, if the Instructor is poorly trained or is just "plain poor" then don't expect anything to effective.

If you as a student are poor then the same logic applies, all Martial Arts are great all systems work regardless of whether the practioner is a grappler, boxer or boxing art etc. the only defect is the practitioner.

Is this a nothing answer, well in all honesty NO ... I get to sick and tired of ignorant people rubbishing everything without looking at the merits behind why styles or systems are the way they are.

There is no Martial Art in the world today, which is just "free fighting" at the end of the day the attacks, counters and all ourt defence all follow a pre-conceived pattern that was taught or practised as part of a system.

I have met some brilliant Modified Wing Chun practitioners in my time as well as some brilliant Traditional Wing Chun practitioners, then again by the same token I have met some total CHUMPS. As long as I am not in the CHUMP Brigade and I personally can see how effective the Art is for me, then yes that lineage, version or steam of Fighting System works for me.

[JoeJacari]

The lineage discussion has been great. Everyone had good input.

There are different variations and striations in the theme of lineage, style, etc.
It almost can never end if you slice and dice it.

Here's another angle:

Wing Chun is more about position and timing and technique, therefore it's great for those who are:

1. Female
2. Have a tiny body/undersized
3. Are skinny
4. Tall & lanky

Now, I'm talking about situations where people meet on the street and the average guy out there is:

1. A streetfighter/non-MMA type
2. Standard Karate fighter
3. Knows nothing about fighting
4. Male vs. female
5. Bigger male vs. smaller opponent.

In 1-5 directly above, the traditional/classical Wing Chun guy/lady with at least 1 year of diligent practice in a legitimate lineage will probably fare very well.

My question is what combinations would Wing Chun excell in. Are there examples, say for instance fighting a bigger guy in MMA/Grappling on the street/hard surface, where a Wing Chung guy with a smaller/tiny body might be able to prevail?

Any input on experiences of mismatching size, weight, style and Wing Chun coming out ahead would be interesting.

--J. Jacari

[Liddel]

I suspect Joe you may change your perspective when you either -

1) begin assisting you sifu in teaching
2) teach yourself
3) Touch hands with a VT school that is different to you but still has skill.
(becasue there are many types of skill)

Things arent so cut and dry IMHO.

[Chum Kil]

I suspect Joe you may change your perspective when you either -

1) begin assisting you sifu in teaching
2) teach yourself
3) Touch hands with a VT school that is different to you but still has skill.
(becasue there are many types of skill)

Things arent so cut and dry IMHO.

Liddel,

I'm betting JJ will no longer be doing Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . I think "classical" or "traditional" would be

1. Siu Lim Tau
2. Chum Kiu
3. Bil Gee

Using those three forms as taught by Yip Man and his students withouth much modification or changing their spirit.

. . . . --J. Jacari
Leung Jan retired from Fatshan and moved back to his native village of of Gu Lo. There he taught a version of WC using San Sik and no forms. There are many lineages of WC outside of the Yip Man lineage that are just as valid but look different.
PR

[kj]

Ken has not said an hour. More like 20 minutes. If YOU want to take longer fine.
But approximately 20 minutes or so will be just fine.

Ditto that.

I've been on hiatus for awhile, and just catching up on the forum. It's always interesting to see what pops up when you're off and away for a bit. I still have more to wade through; I admit my curiosity has been piqued.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Well done, David.
- kj


As a word of advice...I'd ease up on the lineage trumpeting here. It can certainly be exciting to get involved in a new pursuit like training WC. Conserve your energy for when the going gets tough and you reach plateaus. Better to perservere and plow on through to the next level then burning out, after your initial lineage lust burns out, and it is down to working on the development of your PERSONAL skill in Wing Chun.

Neither Ken or Carl or anyone else within our lineage can grant you magical Wing Chun powers by mere association alone. You are going to have to sweat for it--work it, and keep training year in and year out. You'll find that to be the case whatever your lineage is.

Neither Ken or Carl have a monopoly on Wing Chun skill.

Attempting to rub that into the faces of forum members here is not going to go very well. Several years ago there was another student at one of Carl's schools who came on too strong and talked up Carl to the detriment of others. All in the early stages of his training. He then burned out on Wing Chun and rolled over to MMA and general crosstraining--without a trace of Wing Chun left in the mix.

In the meantime, enjoy your training and have fun. If the training philosophy and methodology of your instructor clicks with you that is great! It should make training the art that much more fun. It's all excitement in the beginning of the hard work.

You'll find though that many others have the same level of excitement and commitment with their own instructors and their own lineages.

print out the following article and refer to it OFTEN.

http://www.wingchun.com/apath.shtml

It really reflects Ken's approach to Wing Chun--I personally went over that article with Ken literally line by line before posting it on my website. So it really does reflect his philosophy with regards to Wing Chun.