Hold to the basics

[bcbernam777]

I have found it quite wide spread amongst many Wing Chun practicioners that a certain mindset exists, one which limits their development in Wing Chun, and constricts their understanding of the system. The mindset I am refering to is the tendancy to overlook the powerful place of the most basic elements of Wing Chun and to try and race ahead to what is considered the "meat" of the system. An example of this is the importance of the YJKYM in the SLT tao form and the role that the SLT plays in the development of the stance. Though there are few who would not subscribe to the importance of the stance, the importance of performing the form slowly and carefully to develop the stance, those same people who subscribe to its importance, seem to grow bored of the form very easily and want to move on the Chum Kui, Bui Jee or anything else which seems more exciting and tantalising, and in so doing sacrifice the time and energy needed to lay the right foundation, therefore when they actually touch hands with someone who has understood and have actively sought to train and develop the basics, they find that they have no ability against such a person. The blame is laid on whom? the system? the student? or the Sifu? I believe its all and none at the same time, and I dont think it is as simple a matter as holding out one element in isilation to the rest, but I believe there to be a singular reason, which contains the three elements, which is the market driven aproach to martial arts, selling out the integrity of the art for a fistful of dollars, and a handful of convienience. Martial arts has becime big business that is more concerned with the McDonalds approach of "give the customer what they want" rather than what is needed in terms of an effective and transparent approach to the system, one that is rooted not in the the mere trickery of a a-z approach to martial arts complete with a pretty belt at the end of it, whos only meaning is tied into how nice the cloth is, but an approach that is rooted in the concpet of Wing Chun being a dynamic and alive way of approaching the problem at hand. Too many are not willing or maybe indeed able to fit within the parameters of the system, not being able to clearly see the goal of moving from naturalness, awkwardness, back to naturalness again, disolving the system into your own being, so that it is like breathing.

The correct mindset, learn to love the simple things of Wing Chun, learn to cling to the basics until they have become yours and you own them, dont be taken in by the formalised constructs of curriculum, learn to find the system and dont loose your own fluidity and aliveness. and always hold on to the basics, build a sure foundation that will last.

[viper]

yeah i agree on many accounts of ur statement people ask me bout showin them wing chun when i start doin the for slt there like dont u jump around and sh1t im like it aint fancy real combat aint its violent otherwise wed all do it. one thing i found hard is the front stance but now rfter 3 years of training its like ive always had it likme foot placement just me but i know slt and the advanced bless gm william cheung but yeh i know them back to front.

better to be good at one technique then be ok at 50

[Kapten Klutz]

Though there are few who would not subscribe to the importance of the stance, the importance of performing the form slowly and carefully to develop the stance, those same people who subscribe to its importance, seem to grow bored of the form very easily and want to move on the Chum Kui, Bui Jee or anything else which seems more exciting and tantalising, and in so doing sacrifice the time and energy needed to lay the right foundation,

This sounds similar to the situation in some kinds of meditation courses (like theravada and zen) where the basics are the sitting posture and a very simple object of attention like the in-and-out breath. There's nothing tantalizing about the in-and-out breath, and the students soon start asking or silently longing for visualizations, mantras, cosmic experiences and other kinds of entertainment. But the point of the 'boring' meditation is to reduce the mind's expectations and desire for entertainment, until it just rests in plain awareness. That position is the basic position of mental training, at least the little I understand of it. Sometimes the most important lessons are so quiet and modest you would hardly notice it, though it's been in your face all the time. YMMV, thanks for your inspiring post, I think I'll go do SLT now:)

[Gert]

The correct mindset, learn to love the simple things of Wing Chun, learn to cling to the basics until they have become yours and you own them, dont be taken in by the formalised constructs of curriculum, learn to find the system and dont loose your own fluidity and aliveness. and always hold on to the basics, build a sure foundation that will last.
Good post! I agree with you especially the last part is a good advice to all newcomers in Wing Chun.

GJ

[chisauking]

Your intentions are good, bcbernam777, but trying to preach to a generation that's been brought up on popcorn and NHB TV shows, you are wasting your time.

I try to tell all that would listen that you need to be proficient in chisau first before you go into free sparring, but my voice is losed in the bussh, bussh, sound of the clash of boxing gloves

[AndrewS]

Your intentions are good, bcbernam777, but trying to preach to a generation that's been brought up on popcorn and NHB TV shows, you are wasting your time.

I try to tell all that would listen that you need to be proficient in chisau first before you go into free sparring, but my voice is losed in the bussh, bussh, sound of the clash of boxing gloves


CSK,

and I'll tell you, that my experience teaching and observing has been that if I show someone the pure mechanic of an action (position their body, line 'em up so they have things right out to the hand and down to the floor), create a drill that brings out that mechanic (walk in and crash, for instance), create a limited sparring environment where they have to use that mechanic (cut in on a straight punch, aka jab sparring), *then* show the chi sao (jum), students run down far fewer blind alleys and develop proficiency in chi sao at a much greater rate and frequency.

BCB,

while I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of the basics, that importance is what leads to the delusion that standing around for 30 minutes a day will lead to martial achievement or skill- something proven patently false by many Wing Chun and taiji players.

Most teachers don't have the basics, of those that do, few realize how they got them or how to efficiently transmit them, of their students few realize the importance of those basics, unless the teacher is someone able to convey that importance. The system. . . much as the system annoys me on occasion, the system is clear as day about the work you need to do and what matters.

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Here's some stuff from Michael Jen's UG Q&A. It's geared towards grappling, but applies to WCK and any combat sport, really:

--
Ccdog1955, since I know who you are, I can tell you exactly where you are going wrong with your training. You have the mentality of "you can be successful just with the basics", however, it is in the completely wrong direction. You get a bunch of videos and take lessons with various instructors in search of the those fine details to perfect your basics. The problem is that ever instructor has a different way of doing the basics, however, in your mind, you tend to think that there is one "perfect" way of doing it and you are in search of that way. With all your videos and lessons with various instructors, you have not gotten any closer to perfecting your basics because that single perfect way does not exist.

In addition, with all the details you have learned from various sources, you aren't improving in significant manner because you don't understand how to apply it in a dynamic situation. Why? Because there is no system. You are learning "perfect" technique in isolated static situations. What you have done is like a karate or kung fu guy who is trying to do the perfect kata yet wondering why they can't get that perfect kata to work in sparring.

Since you can't get all the perfect kata you have learned to work, you are now looking into the "mental approach". You are now going to the complete opposite end of the spectrum. So you are now looking into all the theories and principles that other higher level people are talking about. This stuff is nothing but fancy words for your situation. You may sit there and ponder the greatness of what some higher level person says, but you don't know how to turn that into practical application.

By the way, your age has nothing to do with any of this. I have students who are as old as you are and we never talk about age being some sort of hinderance to progressing or any reason to change the gameplan in comparison to younger students.
--
One other thing is that plagues your training group is a lack of training methodology. That is also a big reason why you have such a big gap between your "technique" and your "mental aspect".

Let me describe what your average training session is probably like. You get there and grab someone to practice some techniques you saw on the latest video you got. You do some reps, but each training session you're probably throwing in a couple more things you saw in a video. Then some guys there want to practice some NHB. Maybe some other guy wants to mess around with sticks or takedowns. Then you say that you just want to roll. When you roll, you go 100% and all those techniques you learned in the videos or privates you took all went out the door as you play the same game that you have played for the past few years. Then you wonder why you can't get past a certain plateau in your skills.

If you want to improve, you need to cut all that crap out and completely restructure your training session.
--
OK, let me first start off and say that if you don't have the interest or discipline to focus on one thing for a long time, this program will be useless for you.

Let's say pin escapes is your weakest area and since pin escapes is applicable for gi, no gi, and MMA, it's a one to use as an example. By the way, for MMA, before you worry about how to handle strikes when escaping pins, you need to know to escape when there are no strikes, so "sportive" techniques are still applicable for you entire training program.

For 2 days of the week, you should get together with a training partner and "figure stuff out". This means ABSOLUTELY NO ROLLING. The reason I say this is because too many people always just jump into rolling too quickly and if I say you can roll a little, that little bit eventually turns into a lot.

These 2 days is about problem solving. Pick one or two very specific problems one work on that. No more than one or two things. We are using pin escapes as an example. First decide what position your opponent is going to start in since there are many different pinning positions. Let's say we isolate him hooking one arm behind your neck and the other around your chest.

With pin escapes, the first thing is to get your arms into posture. Don't worry about maintaining posture or the escape, we just need to get your arms into proper position first. Let's also assume you and your training partner already know some basic pin escapes and this is not your first month in jiu-jitsu. Have your opponent squeeze you a little and keep his head down and now try to get your arms in posture.

If you can't get your arms into posture or feel like you are using a lot of strength, then that is your first problem to solve. Let's say that your partner is positioning his head in a certain way that makes it difficult for you to get your arm into position. Isolate that specific head position and figure out how to get around that specific form of resitance. The partner is to hold that position and may not counter what you are doing or change his head position.

Figuring this out may take 5 minutes, it may take 30 minutes, it may take 1 hour. You do not leave the training room until you figure out the solution to the problem.

Sometimes as you are trying to figure out the solution, switch positions with your partner and pin him in the exact same position he was pinning you. Have him give it a try. Sometimes when you are on top, you can feel where the weakness in the pin is better than the person on the bottom. Give suggestions to your training partner on the bottom on how he can possibly get his arm in. You need to constantly get feedback from each other if you want to speed up the process.

Be honest with yourself when it comes to the amount of strength you are using. If you get your arm into posture, ask yourself if you could have done the same thing to someone who was 50 lbs. heavier. If it took a bit more strength to accomplish, then that may not be the right answer.

If you think you found the answer, tell your partner to keep the exactly same position and don't counter by changing his positioning, but add more strength into his resistance. See if it still works when dealing with more strength. If it doesn't, then go back to "figuring stuff out".

If you figure one thing out fairly quickly, then ask your opponent how he could chang his head positioning to counter what you figured out. Once he changes his head positioning, isolate that specific position and repeat the same process. If it took you 1 hour to figure out 1 thing, then just stop and do not moving onto a second thing. Only move onto the next thing if you figured out the first thing in under 30 minutes. Why? Because this is a thinking game and you need your mind to be fresh and sharp. If you go over an hour, your mind tends to start to get burnt out.

The reason I say not to cover more than 2 things is because it will ensure that you remember what you have figured out. You will notice that, in our example, I have isolated a problem area down to its smallest component.

The next time you do another "figuring stuff out" session, first review what you covered the last time. Many times the technique you figured out last session suddenly won't work as perfectly as it did before. Figure out why. Do no move onto something else until you figure out why it was working at the end of last session, but is not working now.

If you do this, at the end of the month, you will have added at least 8 new things into your game. Keep in mind that I said "things", not techniques. What you figured out could have been small details, a technique, a strategy, an issue on timing, etc... Do not think that what you figure out has to be a "new" technique.

After you have covered all the possible ways to position the head to prevent the arms to get in posture, then keep the same arm position, but have your partner change his body positioning. Maybe change the angle, or sprawl, or up on his knees, whatever.... Isolate that one body change and see how that prevents you from getting your arms into posture. Now the "figuring out" process starts all over.

Eventually, you can change the arm position and eventually to a different pin position and process starts over again. You can see that you can easily spend months just working posture and how you can spend years trying to get good at pin escapes.

If you follow this plan, I can guarantee that you will remember what you figured out better than what you were taught in videos, seminars, etc...

I will continue with his later and also discuss how you should spend your training time on the other days.

(cont...)

[reneritchie]

(more...)

Unfortunately, many people believe that the learning process for BJJ is and should be different than established and proven learning methods. I think that is why so many people in BJJ do not progress as quickly as they could and never reach their full potential.

OK, back to the "figuring stuff out" training days....

As you figure out how to get your arm into posture, do not do anything else besides that. Do not do another technique or escape even if it seems like it may be the better option based on your partners resistance. Force this one thing- get your arms into posture. That's it. This has 2 purposes. One, it's the whole idea of get good at one thing before we move onto another. Two, the better you get at forcing that one thing your partner will have to do an even greater exaggerated movement in order to stop it. This will make a "follow up" or combination technique even easier in the future.

Especially if you do not have an instructor that you see constantly, do not look at videos, seminars, or the occasional private for all your answers. Unfortunatly, most people think that all their answers will be found in the newest video by the latest champion. Think of those training aids as a guide to steer you in the right direction. Once you are steered in the right direction, you must travel the rest of the path yourself. It is impossible for a video or instructor to teach you how to handle every position situation and nuance.

I once again can't stress enough how important it is to discuss and get constant, "on the spot" feedback from your training partner. "On the spot" means that if your partner feels a split second opening and thinks he knows how you can possibly get your arm in posture, he should immediately tell you. He should not wait after you have struggled for 5 minutes.

I can say that in my own training, my purple belt has helped me progress as much as any instructor I have taken a lesson with. The goal of the partner is to help you figure out the problem, not prevent you from figuring out by being competative. The partner should not give any addition resistance or counter besides what he has been specified to do.

As you are figuring out how to get your arms into posture, try to also figure out and start to pay attention to the underlying principles and concepts to what you are doing. You will find that there are universal principles. It is ESSENTIAL that you figure out these principles as your figure out the techniques, details, etc... The goal is to slowly bridge the gap between technique and principles. This is what will allow you to be able to sucessfully improvise in an technical manner in the future when you are placed in an unfamiliar situation.

Remember what I said in the past. Principles alone mean nothing. They are just fancy words. Memorization of numerous techniques has limited benefit because your brain can only memorize a certain amount before you start forgetting things. In any fighting art, you must know how to improvise and turned thought into instinct.

If you are training 5 days a week, do this 2 of the days. If you are training 3 days a week, do this one of the days. Of course, this training methodology is for improving your skill and should not be followed if you are getting ready for a competition in the near future.

More to come later.....

--

Good training partners are difficult to find, however, the problem is that most people don't open their mouths and ask others if they want to train like this. People tend to hope that they will just see someone else who "trains well" and that person to ask will be the obvious choice or that someone else will ask them. In addition, most people tend to be too timid take charge and be the leader of the training session. They allow the other people to lead them into chaos.

But I will say that it is easier for me as an instructor since I can just grab a student and make them train with me the way that I want to train. I guess you guys need to think of it like asking a girl out on a date. Since you guys aren't as good looking as I am, the women aren't going to just come up to you. You're going to give to make some effort and to ask them out. You might get some rejections, but if you are persistant, you will get a date.

Now back to the training sessions....

As I said, I recommend 2 of the 5 days to be "figuring stuff out". Other remaining days should be spend for live drilling and isolation rolling.

If you goal is to improve a specific area, a minimal amount of your training time should be spent rolling all out. One thing that plagues BJJ training is the "let's just roll syndrome". When you just roll and do everything, calculate how much time you actually spend in the position you want to work on. That amount of time is actually very little. So this is not very productive when it comes to improving your weakness. In addition, when people roll all out, they tend to get competative which means they want to avoid their weaknesses in order to win or look bad. At this point in your training, rolling all out is mainly just beneficial to improve your conditioning.

When you go into these training sessions, you must enter with the proper training mentality. First, you must have one specific and realistic goal in mind. Your goal should be to execute the one thing that you figured out in your "figuring stuff out" training session. Your goal needs to be very specific, just like when you were figuring stuff out. Do not go into training with 10 goals in mind. Do not have a general goal like, "I'm going to work on my escapes". This will do nothing but lead to disappointment. Most people tend to overshoot their goals, not be able to remember the 10 things they wanted to do when rolling, come up short, and then be disppointd in themselves. It is very easy to remember one thing, even in action. If you accomplished that one thing, that's great and you can feel good about yourself and your training. If you accomplish more than your 1 goal, then that's just a bonus.

Second, you must not care what others think. It does not matter how many times you get tapped or how many people you tap out. You must not care if a lower belt might make you look bad. It is stupidly amusing how many people actually count and keep track of that ****. It order to improve your weaknesses, you must put yourself in vulernable situations which often will cause you to lose or look bad. Remember that you learn the most from losing, not from winning. Also, one thing that higher belts must get rid of is the mentality in which they feel the necessity to kick the ass of a lower belt if that lower belt makes them look bad. I call tell you that every higher belt has had this mentality in their career. Your classmates are your training partners, you do not want your training partner to feel fearful or uncomfortable training with you because one day they may not want to train with you as a result of it. You want classmates and training partners that can tap you or give you a hard time. That is the only way to improve. Think of it this way- how much will a black belt improve if he only trains with white belts? Not very much.

More to come later.....

--

On these training days, 80 - 100% of your time should be spent on pin escapes. Personally, I am not a big fan of high repetition on a compliant partner when it comes to practicing techniques. Of course, you do need to have done enough repetition to have the move down fairly well. However, I believe in getting most repetition in through progressive controlled resistance.

When you go to a group class or training, you should analyze each person there and figure out what they can offer you in regards to helping your improve your pin escapes. You should figure out how you can structure the few minutes you have with each person to maximize your ability to improve your pin escapes.

Women and smaller, lesser skilled men are great people to start off training with. Have them start off in side control and try to get your arms into posture. Guage how much strength you are using. If you find yourself grunting or using a decent amount of strength, there is something seriously wrong with your technique. If if you find it too easy, then give them some tips on how to improve their pin to make it harder for you. Most people would appreciate the advice. On a person who is weak or lesser skilled, you should be able to do your technique with little strength and in slow motion. No explosiveness. Some guys tend not to like training with women or significantly smaller guys because they don't feel they gain much from in. If you goal is to "kick ass and win", then, yes, you won't gain much from it. If you want to get in some repetition on something you are weak at, training with them can be extremely beneficial because you can easily control the situation. If you can't accomplish your goal on the women and smaller guys, don't even bother with the bigger, stronger, or more skilled guys.

Once you have gotten proficient with your goal with them, then move onto the guys that are stronger or more skilled. If they are far too skilled or strong, ask them if they would be willing to limit what they are doing. For example, if you have only worked on getting your arms into posture for side control, ask them not to go to knee-on-stomach, north-south, or modified scarf hold. It never hurts to ask.

If you are unable to get posture on someone who is much more skilled or stronger, IMMEDIATELY BEGIN TO MAKE MENTAL NOTES AND PICTURES ON WHAT HE IS DOING! Even ask how he is able to stop your movement. Once again, it never hurts to ask! Rather than being disappointed that you could not obtain your goal on these stronger or more skilled classmates, you be glad that they have automatically given you your next problem to figure out in your "figuring stuff out" session.

More to come....

(cont...)

[reneritchie]

(more...)


--

Like I said, I only believe in doing enough static reps to get the move down fairly well. Once you have the move down fairly well, I believe their are much more productive ways to increase proficiency that doing hundreds or thousands of more static reps. Static reps build coordination and feel for the technique, however, it also only builds feel for that single static position/situation.

I have had students that were less coordinated and did not catch on quickly. I had them do many reps and in a static demonstration, they could do the technique very well, however, in a dynamic situation with movement and resistance, none of that translated over. That is why I believe that is it important to get the reps in through controlled progressive resistance. It's the old saying, "You fight like you train and train like you fight".

People also tend to remember things better when they figure things out themselves. Somehow those things tend to stick in your brain a lot better. So for less coordinated people, I will put them in a situation with controlled resistance, isolate one small idea I want them to focus on (that is probably only a small part of the entire movement), and create a situation and conditions that will lead them into what I want them to figure out. Once they have the moment of enlightment and figure it out themselves, it becomes ingrained into them much faster. Then I use the same process for the next part of the movement and repeat the process until they have the complete movement. I just keep guiding them into the direction that I want. I found this method works a lot better than high static reps.

The reason people feel the need for high reps is because they are trying to "master" the complete movement all at once. Then when they roll, they need are trying to pull off the complete move. What I do is only have the student do a part of the movement but do it and learn it in a dynamic situation. There's a big difference between teaching methodologies here.

--

Once again, back to training...

We've all heard the saying, "Two heads are better than one". This is very true if you can learn how to work well with your training partner.

If you have a good training partner, try to not have him roll when you are rolling and vice versa. If you are working your pin escape with someone, have your partner watching on the side, making mental notes on the mistakes you may be making or if the guy you are training with is countering in an unexpect way. Many times, that training partner can see a lot more of what is going on that you can when you are on the bottom of someone else's pin.

There will be so many instances where you, as the person on the bottom of the pin, think you are doing something correctly, but somehow it is not working and you feel extremely frustrated. However, the partner sitting on the side can see clearly that you are doing something wrong or missing something.

Of course you should do the same for your partner. The development of this type of observation skills and analysis is extremely important. Now that I think about it, this is the beginning of training your mind to do "reverse engineering" and "performance coaching" in the future. These observation and analysis skills is what has allowed me personally to analyze Marcelo Garcia's back control game by watching videos of him competing and figuring out things far beyond what he taught me in my private lessons with him or what he teaches on his videos.

You should never have a training session end with your partner asking you, "What did I do wrong?" and you responding, "I don't know.". You should always have an answer- even if that answer is, "Your opponent did 'this' and we haven't figured out how to handle that yet."
--
I'm not saying that a certain amount of static repetition is not necessary. I'm just not one to recommend that a person needs to do 500 reps in a row at one time.

I have a general teaching method that I follow and it does consist of some static reps. I found that 99% of students learn very well from the method I use, however, occasionally, there is the 1% that just doesn't "get it". No matter how many reps I forced that person to do, the student just can't get it to translate over to live rolling. In fact, for these students, I find that thinking too much is their worst enemy.

So for those few students, I start off with minimal static reps and go right to dynamic drills. I have been able to make these partcular students progress much faster than the "regular" way.

As an instructor, I sometimes have to realize that my standard way just doesn't work for a particular student. I used to get very frustrated at the student, however, I realized that I will never be able to change the student's personality and mental capabilities, so to be a good teacher, I had to change my method.

The problem with many instructors is that they will change the technique they are teaching rather than the teaching method. For example, if a student has a problem with smashing when passing the guard, the instructor will say, "It must not be for you. Just run around fast instead."

[fiamacho]

BCB this is a very good post as I have stated in other posts, Wing Chun has been reduced to the "laughing stock" of the Martial Arts world by Latte Drinking Instructors who have received their certification via correspondence courses, attending seminars and training for a mere 18 months.

These clowns then go, open up a Club, hang their little Sifu Certificates on their walls, tie up their Red or Yellow Satin/Silk sashes, rant and rave about Lineage, you know the crap "I am a 4th generation Instructor of the Leung Ting Lineage" ... blah blah blah or the "I was trained by Grandmaster William Cheung himself" ... who the hell cares !!!

And then guess what, they start explaining something like Siu Lum Tao and then for "the initiated" you find out that basically the guy is an idiot and knows "Jack All". In the meantime those who are new to the Art do not get taught the basics, they do not get taught how to apply the Art, they enter tournaments and get their arses kicked, they then blame the Art saying it is a load of crap.

Poor Instruction is rife in the Wing Chun World, regardless of whether you are on the Modified or Traditional side of things, yes the Art has been reduced to a conversatiuon piece amongst the Latte Trained Instructors out there. Here is something to note why do these Instructors always try and impress everyone by doing Chi Sau blindfolded, when their standard of chi-sau is poor.

Get back to basics is totally correct, providing the "Latte Drinking Wing Chun Red/Gold Sash Cheung/Ting Lineage Instructor" knows how and what the basics are, to tell you the truth they wouldn't know what the basics are if it jumped up and kicked them up the arse.

[viper]

On that point I went in a tournament first one i came fourth. In my state we only really have one tournament and its mainly a karate thing neway I probly woulda won the thing but the ref wouldnt allow trapping lap sao and close range fighting which suked so i learnt to kickbox fast and still came fourth and fought all my fights with no rest 4 times 3minutes when most had 1 to 2 fights rest. From this exp I didnt blame wing chun I blame myself for running out of puff in the last minute and I would blame my ref for bein a ignorant fool and not respecting the fact that it was all styles and different styles fite diff. One final thing I basically pak everyone thats it u dont realise the meaning of forward energy till u fight peps that aint got none so I trapped most fights and got in trouble and we couldnt use elbow and knees. A bad tradesman always blames the system wing chun is adaptable just open ur mind to it.

[Liddel]

Those latte drinking wanna be's will always exist. Nice post Fiamacho.
The Blindfold Chi sao call, rings true in our neck of the woods.....

Ive come to the conclusion that if others are getting a Mcdojo version its just improving the value of what i have so i have no axe to grind in this regard.

The basics are being broken everywhere but unfortunately the just dont know any better.

Ive seen Flat Bong Sao's, Thumbs flailing, straight font legs in YJKYM, leaning bodies, poor timing, missing actions, Crossed hands, flying elbows, round actions !
Body positions with the Lok Dim Boon and Baat Chum Do that would get you seriouusly injured...

The Basics are the most important part of a style, some schools dont like the running punch they think punching the air is a waste of time or standing on one leg is usless, well each to thier own, but these things are more than what you see at face value the have Principles and structures that can be applied to other actions or even other arts if you are looking to become a MMA.

At the end of the day.....What can we do ????
IMHO -
Be happy with what WE'VE got.....

[chisauking]

AndrewS sez:

CSK,

and I'll tell you, that my experience teaching and observing has been that if I show someone the pure mechanic of an action (position their body, line 'em up so they have things right out to the hand and down to the floor), create a drill that brings out that mechanic (walk in and crash, for instance), create a limited sparring environment where they have to use that mechanic (cut in on a straight punch, aka jab sparring), *then* show the chi sao (jum), students run down far fewer blind alleys and develop proficiency in chi sao at a much greater rate and frequency.

Andrew: if you can't handle dan chi, you can't handle suong chi. If you can't handle soung chi at low intensity, you can't handle soung chi at high intensity.....
How can you handle free sparring whereby you can use the hands and legs when you haven't reached at least a proficient level in chisau when only the hands are in play?

I'm not doubting your method, but I have yet to see it for myself. Do you have a student in the UK or Hong Kong? Not being disrespectful, but I have long learnt that there are varying levels of good.

For me, the best way to improve chisau is actually doing chisau.

[chisauking]

If you can't juggle 1 ball, how can you juggle 4?

[Liddel]

I see both Andrews POV and CSK's.

CSK i think andrew is not reffering to 'free sparring' as you put it but applying it in a 'controlled' sparring enviroment (is this right andrew ?)

I can see how this would give them a 'leg up' for its use in Chi Sao, its all how a student catches the 'idea' of an action IMO.

Also i believe you are talking about different circumstances.

I often tell my Si Dei to remember there is one way to use an action from a touching (chi Sao) position and another when you recieve an action from a Non contact situation.
(Largely due to more force as a bi product of the bodies momentum)

Jum sau from a contact position has more downward force....
The same Jum Sau for a comming punch has a retrieting/downward force applyed which is 'less' apparent than when you use it from a contact stage
(im generalising situations).

I can see Andrews approach 'could' give the student the ability to distinguish between the two differences where as just knowing the Chisao use, is limiting to the average student without a person pointing it out or them feeling and discovering the difference for themselves which would leave too much to chance.

Im just thinking aloud here...but my point still stands. :rolleyes:

P.S enjoyed the post Rene thanks ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

CSK,

and I'll tell you, that my experience teaching and observing has been that if I show someone the pure mechanic of an action (position their body, line 'em up so they have things right out to the hand and down to the floor), create a drill that brings out that mechanic (walk in and crash, for instance), create a limited sparring environment where they have to use that mechanic (cut in on a straight punch, aka jab sparring), *then* show the chi sao (jum), students run down far fewer blind alleys and develop proficiency in chi sao at a much greater rate and frequency.

BCB,

while I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of the basics, that importance is what leads to the delusion that standing around for 30 minutes a day will lead to martial achievement or skill- something proven patently false by many Wing Chun and taiji players.

Most teachers don't have the basics, of those that do, few realize how they got them or how to efficiently transmit them, of their students few realize the importance of those basics, unless the teacher is someone able to convey that importance. The system. . . much as the system annoys me on occasion, the system is clear as day about the work you need to do and what matters.

Andrew


***GOT TO AGREE COMPLETELY with AndrewS about this...spending months and months standing still in a "perfect" neutral stance while doing SLT for half an hour....or spending months and months doing dan chi sao and what not (including double armed chi sao)...and other basic drills (like pak sao)...bong sao/larp sao, etc....

BEFORE ever engaging in the kinds of "sparring-like" (but not actual sparring) drills as Andrew described...is a waste of a lot of valuable time, imo.

Show them some basics - and then create some sort of semi-realistic drill to test those basics - that's the way to go.

[Sekabin]

Show them some basics - and then create some sort of semi-realistic drill to test those basics - that's the way to go.

I think 'semi-realistic' is the key word (er... words). Particularly for people beginning WCK, throwing them into very realistic, totally uncooperative sparring won't help them hone their technique. Well, that is to say, it will help them generate a technique that will probably be effective for them in the short-term, but in the long run they may well be picking up bad habits that they'll only have to get rid of later in order to use their body more efficiently.

I'm not one who believes that if you put a bunch of monkeys and some sparring gloves in a ring together they will become the most effective fighters. They'll be able to fight, true, but if they drill their bodies into efficient monkey-fighting shapes and structures, they'd be better off in the long run.

[Kapten Klutz]

This is a very interesting thread, thanks to all participants. I'm too new to MA to get specific, but my opening approach would be to respect traditional teaching techniques but not to worship them. Teaching has improved a lot over the last 100 years in many areas, even over the last twenty years. The military has new types of drills to hone skills, language teachers have focussed drills for learning to speak (something in between grammar practice and free conversation), doctors are being trained in new ways, musicians have been developing their teaching... you name the area and the method of effective teaching has improved and is showing results. I wouldn't want to learn Spanish the way they taught it in even the best schools 100 yrs ago. Why shouldn't new kinds of drills be developed for MA?

I guess what some people might worry about is that there are some subtle sides to the art that get rationalized out because a reformer doesn't understand them or thinks students are too lazy to master it. This is why I can accept that the idea of lineage can have something to it, even if it is sometimes abused and cheapened. But as soon as a coach shows that he or she is really thinking about how they train the students, and can explain innovations as clearly as some of these posts show, then I feel they're doing a good thing. That's the kind of thinking that led to these systems being developed in the first place. Unless you think it just appeared in some monks mind while he meditated. (fat chance).

I guess I'm lucky to be training at a place where I have a lot of confidence in the instructors. I'm also such a beginner that pretty much anything I do is an improvement.:)

[Edmund]

I guess what some people might worry about is that there are some subtle sides to the art that get rationalized out because a reformer doesn't understand them or thinks students are too lazy to master it. This is why I can accept that the idea of lineage can have something to it, even if it is sometimes abused and cheapened. But as soon as a coach shows that he or she is really thinking about how they train the students, and can explain innovations as clearly as some of these posts show, then I feel they're doing a good thing.


Well this relates back to some of the stuff that Rene quoted concerning grappling - though it applies to WC just as well:
Different lineages will have different basics and different underlying logic and principles. Until the student can understand how their particular lineage's system is used in fighting application, they can't turn their basic skill into a fundamental part of their personal style.

Even with that understanding, a student needs to practice in a intelligent way to master the basics so it can be applied in a dynamic situation. If the student only repeats things such as forms or drills without thinking and applying context, it doesn't matter how many times or how long they do it. A good teacher will be able to guide the student towards making sense of it rather than just making them do a form or a drill.

[Hendrik]

1,



The term basic have been brought up many times here.

But, what is Basic?

what is Basic? How deep is the Basic needs to be get into?




2,

while I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of the basics, that importance is what leads to the delusion that standing around for 30 minutes a day will lead to martial achievement or skill- something proven patently false by many Wing Chun and taiji players. -----------


Imho,

Perhaps,

it is not a dellusion; and perhaps it just prove mimic things superficially or looking good or have no idea what is for what.....


It is a causal world. law of cause and effect always applied. Diferent cause lead to different effect.


a,
cooking sand expecting to become rice
or totally have no idea what one is cooking...


b,
Standing around 30mins a day will yield standing.
Standing and day dream around 30 mins a day will yield day dream..
however, standing investigate/ aligning/ exploring-experimenting the different components of body structure, force field, breathing... 30mins a day accumulate lots of usefull experience.




and,

even punching heavy bag for 30 mins a day might do revse service if one has reach the dimissing of return or saturation point after 15mins.




Just some thoughts

[Matrix]

But, what is Basic?What is not basic?
IMO, advanced is just incorporating many basic concepts together.

[Hendrik]

What is not basic?
IMO, advanced is just incorporating many basic concepts together-----






just Imho for discussion shake

The above are a fuzzy statement which is a root cause of lots of problem. since it doesnt tell anything.

IE: when one is asking how to cross a bridge , and the answer is do whatever not cause one fall.

This type of stuffs sound zen but it is not zen at all but causing confusion.

What is basic? if Basic cannot be defined clearly there is no advance. Imho

Imho, lots of cma get into trouble with the un beable to define in on hand and on the other hand thinking this confusion is zen instead of realized what happen.

Ie: what is the different between mimic-ing Slt for 30 mins with the zen like fantasy and mimic-ing slt for 30 mind with the zen like imitation while making a movie.

and
if mimic-ing can become expert then all those hongkong kungfu movie actors will be the greatest expert because they looks great in thier performance.


So again, what is the basic?
what is that basic one root in so that that is the first few things since that is the tool one cultivate from the first day of doing wck and continously grow as the time goes by.

hopefully after years of tra it become only one thing ining one will default to skillfuly without thinking at all.


So, imho, without the one true skill develop or fully develop. there isnt much there.
People said Tan Bong Fok...etc, is the basic. is it?

If my memory serve, one of a hong kong GM in WCK once said the real kung fu is those count able stuffs which one default to every time. I agree with him and would like to add that, the stuffs one default to might be only say 3 but the level of attainment or states of these 3 stuffs are infinite, there is where the level of kungfu shown. same sun punch but it is not the samething at all.

Thus, within the default stuffs, one can really see, is one a wcner or karateka...etc because the engine supporting or powering that default stuffs is the original face of what one's art is.

Thus, there is mma...ect. but, what is the default kungfu of one? Bjj? WCK? boxing? or .... different condition program to different default?

No matter what it is, the basic got to be clearly define. otherwise, it doesnt work in a long run.

in addition, just knowing dan ta, lap da...etc cant' count as the "complete basic "because those are just a certain application technics. it sure may have advantage but it is limited due to the nature of the condition.


For me, imho, power or force generation/manipulation/handling is the core of the basic deep beyond tan bong fok. or slt. and the process/procedure to train to acquire a type of power generation/handling which become the enginee of the system is a core that one needs to based or rooted on. without this, one has not much but drifting from pop application technics to pop technics without a sense of whole and grounded.

Ie: the different between the successfully or not executed of a same technic is core in power manualing. Same Tan da might work or not depend on it.


Just some thoughts.

[Matrix]

Yes, in essence there is no advanced.
My statement may have seemed fuzzy, and that was by design.
BCB said it in the original post on this thread "the tendancy to overlook the powerful place of the most basic elements of Wing Chun and to try and race ahead to what is considered the "meat" of the system." IMO, they are looking for something that doesn't really exist. The basics are the "meat" of the system.

If you want the ONE basic, I would say YJKYM or your horse.
You can have great hands, but without a good horse it is largely a waste.
It's the first thing we learn in SLT, and I do not believe that is purely coincidence.

[Liddel]

Some good points, Both sides of these types of training are needed, the chi sao and the use in a sparring platform.

I dont think you can say right away though.

Sebakin said to sparring early -
"but in the long run they may well be picking up bad habits that they'll only have to get rid of later in order to use their body more efficiently"

I always think this is a funny type of statement, mainly because i believe this to be true, but isnt that the point of having a Sifu ?
Someone whos there to look over and point these things out so as to not form bad habbits ??

[Liddel]

Some good points, Both sides of these types of training are needed, the chi sao and the use in a sparring platform.

I dont think you can say right away though.

Sebakin said to sparring early -
"but in the long run they may well be picking up bad habits that they'll only have to get rid of later in order to use their body more efficiently"

I always think this is a funny type of statement, mainly because i believe this to be true, but isnt that the point of having a Sifu ?
Someone whos there to look over and point these things out so as to not form bad habbits ??

[Hendrik]

If you want the ONE basic, I would say YJKYM or your horse. --------

You might be right. However, I think it is deeper then that such as the essence of YJKYM. and what is that essence carry by or to be release by the posture of yjkym?

[Keng Geng]

There can't be one basic, that is not the essence of kung fu. Thinking in these terms is what gets WC practitioners screwed. The essence of kung fu is not in two dimensional thinking and absolutes. More chain punching anyone?

[Hendrik]

1, There can't be one basic, that is not the essence of kung fu.

2, Thinking in these terms is what gets WC practitioners screwed.

3,The essence of kung fu is not in two dimensional thinking and absolutes.

4, More chain punching anyone?



Just for fun of discussion, i am playing critical role to ask some questions..


1, so what is basic?
saying this cant or that is not is not touching at to solving the issues at all.

2, What does one have when one needs it? who cares what or how the terms for thinking? that thinking stuffs doesnt solve the issue either.

3, again, what is basic?

4, is your chain punch power with 6 directional or 2 directional force vectors? since you mention "The essence of kung fu is not in two dimensional thinking and absolutes"

[kj]

Here's some stuff from Michael Jen's UG Q&A. It's geared towards grappling, but applies to WCK and any combat sport, really:<snip great stuff>

Excellent! Thanks for sharing the essay here, Rene.

Regards,
- kj

[Keng Geng]

Just for fun of discussion, i am playing critical role to ask some questions..


1, so what is basic?
saying this cant or that is not is not touching at to solving the issues at all.

2, What does one have when one needs it? who cares what or how the terms for thinking? that thinking stuffs doesnt solve the issue either.

3, again, what is basic?

4, is your chain punch power with 6 directional or 2 directional force vectors? since you mention "The essence of kung fu is not in two dimensional thinking and absolutes"

1. I won't answer that question, but I definitely won't confine it to one thing. Having a solid horse is not the be all of kung fu.

2. True at a basic level, but not at advanced.

3. That can only be determined by what's in the person's head. It's all about the way you think about your training.

4. My chain punch is multidimensional, so much so it doesn't look like most chain punching.

[Liddel]

Its asked "what are the basics ?"

Well the basics are different from person to person, as in the idea of the basics.
But in my mind they are what any one person needs to perform Kung Fu.
Which is to say practice and or fighting.

So then, with this in mind ill take a chance with you lot ( :D ) and say :rolleyes:

1) Form - How an action is done
2) Force - The energy at work (which ones to use and which to not)
3) Understanding - The 'Why' and 'how' giving boundaries to when and where,
the theories supporting the action break
down. (and they all do at some point)

I think these are the basics, not because they are 'basic' as in simple (that would depend on the individuals POV) but because IMHO they are the fundimental building blocks and each one is needed for good Kung Fu.

You then can take this IDEA of the basics and apply them to the fundimental ACTIONS needed in kung Fu.

Which some are obvious - horse - No horse No Kung Fu
and some are opinion - IMO elbow power etc etc.

This is just me thinking a-loud to get the ball rolling
Thoughts ????

[Edmund]

1) Form - How an action is done
2) Force - The energy at work (which ones to use and which to not)
3) Understanding - The 'Why' and 'how' giving boundaries to when and where,
the theories supporting the action break
down. (and they all do at some point)
...
Thoughts ????

While I don't disagree with what you've said, I can't see how you make a distinction between something that's basic and something that's advanced.

There's a sliding scale of things that are simple and things that are difficult. A student starts at the simple end and works towards the tougher stuff.

While it's generally a good idea to work on one thing at a time, I agree with Keng Geng that having only ONE basic doesn't really make sense. You're effectively useless with only a single skill/technique no matter how fundamental it is. It has to fit in with a SET of basics to give it context.

[Hendrik]

What is basic?
What is advance?
how does basic lead to advance?
is advance something grown from basic or totally different from basic?
is thinking needed to make basic into advance?
or droping away thinking about guide line is a path to advance?


What is a thinking/reasoning?
What is a physical action ?
does one think /reason while in physical action?
how is thinking with brain leads to physical action since thinking thoughts is not equal to body physical action?
Can thinking substitute body action?


What is a multidimentional chain punch?

[Matrix]

What is basic?
What is advance?
What difference does it make? ;)

[bcbernam777]

What is basic?
What is advance?
how does basic lead to advance?
is advance something grown from basic or totally different from basic?
is thinking needed to make basic into advance?
or droping away thinking about guide line is a path to advance?


What is a thinking/reasoning?
What is a physical action ?
does one think /reason while in physical action?
how is thinking with brain leads to physical action since thinking thoughts is not equal to body physical action?
Can thinking substitute body action?


What is a multidimentional chain punch?

What is mindless philosophy with no real point?

[Hendrik]

What difference does it make? ;)


Is one build on top of the others ?

[Hendrik]

What is mindless philosophy with no real point?


Is it a mindless philosoph with no real point?
or
Is it a series of questions probing the reality of the matter?

[kj]

Is it a mindless philosoph with no real point?
or
Is it a series of questions probing the reality of the matter?

It depends on who is doing the thinking.

Regards,
- kj

[Hendrik]

It depends on who is doing the thinking.

Regards,
- kj


Yup.

That is the truth.

Peace

[Matrix]

Is one build on top of the others ?
It is often described as building on top. If you are someone who is building a curriculum of study for students, you might approach it by teaching concepts and principles that build upon the previous skill. For example, YGKYM to shifting to stepping.
When you are a beginner, you may see stepping as an "advanced" skill. However, when you are further along in the curriculum your perspective may have changed, where you would see stepping/footwork as basic.
Things don't always fit into nice tidy labels of "basic" and "advanced".
As BCB says, there may be "no real point" in all of these mental gymnastics, but I still think there's value in challenging our own points of view, so that we don't get too rigid in our thinking. :)

[Hendrik]

It is often described as building on top. If you are someone who is building a curriculum of study for students, you might approach it by teaching concepts and principles that build upon the previous skill.

For example, YGKYM to shifting to stepping.
When you are a beginner, you may see stepping as an "advanced" skill. However, when you are further along in the curriculum your perspective may have changed, where you would see stepping/footwork as basic.


Things don't always fit into nice tidy labels of "basic" and "advanced".
As BCB says, there may be "no real point" in all of these mental gymnastics, but I still think there's value in challenging our own points of view, so that we don't get too rigid in our thinking. :)


Imho


I disagree with you.

take a solid example, say breathing.

"natural lower abdoment" breathing is advance compare with "chest breathing",
and the transition from chest to lower abs breathing took a few steps such as training in knowing the rythm, then deepen to reach the lower abs, then naturally resonancing with lower abs, or attain the breathing needed to sink qi to dan tien in the chinese term.

how can there be without basic breathing and advance breathing? take a test while exhale ask some one to look at your navel. if it is pointing upward to sky while exhale. then, that is it.

if not, even if one force inward the lower abs. that is not the nature lower abs breathing which is refer to the breathing which can sink qi to dan tien for slt. so, this stuff is well define.


So, that is breathing, now the yjkym, without the attaiment of the nature lower abs breathing the yjkym is not fully activate. and how about shifing? stepping? well without the yjkym fully activate the shifing or stepping is partial ...


Thus, imho, it is not about changing perspective or mental concept. it is all about kungfu. it is lots of work and lots of level of attainment. imho, it is not just about knowing some tricks in applications or different thinking patterns. There is basic and advance for they impact handling of the body mind integration.

on the end of the day, as the breathing, if the navel point towards the sky while contraction the abs, one has the Preparation kungfu for a strengthening internal organs and fajing. if not, then it is an external art or shallow or holding breathing which might do damaging to one's own heart or circulation when one is aging..


It is this type of basic and advance training procedule and steps or level that fading away in wck that weaken wck. imho.

just some thoughts

[Matrix]

it is all about kungfu. it is lots of work and lots of level of attainment. imho, it is not just about knowing some tricks in applications or different thinking patterns. There is basic and advance for they impact handling of the body mind integration.
Basic kung fu or advanced kung fu? :rolleyes:

As for your breathing example. The "chest breathing" is just wrong, not basic, IMO.

You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path.

Peace,

[Keng Geng]

You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path.

I disagree. I feel labelling is important. It gives the practitioner of where they are at, and what they should be striving for in their Wing Chun. Obviously when it comes to the fight, wherever you're at is what comes out. You're not thinking about basic or advanced. However, when it comes to training and how you perceive your training, it is important.

I think too many schools proport a "Hey, whatever, it's all Wing Chun" approach to training. I attribute this way of thinking to poor chi sau perspective; the "whatever happens happens" approach to chi sau, instead of thorough breakdown and assessment of what happens in the exchange of energy and pressures.

Most, if not all would agree that Wing Chun is a science, yet according to the expressions of this thread, it is not. If it is a science, then levels, stages must be established where possible. Otherwise Wing Chun is a 3 dressed up as a 9, and we're only wasting our time.

[Hendrik]

Just for the fun of discussion.


As for your breathing example. The "chest breathing" is just wrong, not basic, IMO. -------


Hahaha
so majority of human are wrong?

care to share how do you breath ?





You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path. -----------


You could be right.
I might be hung up on these labels.


and again,


You are right,

it is just another step along the path, however, does one even know how many steps needed to get from a to b without missing step? will a is not mistakenly taken or think as b.

IE: what is a keng geng? definition? basic traning to attain it? steps of training? or we just go out and define everything we do as Keng geng; even if what we do is solid pure muscular tension hard karate type of strike? how can a solid pure muscular tension strike is another step along the path? can soaking corn become french fry's?

so, french is label, fry is label, soak is label, potato is label, cooking oil is label...

just some thoughts

[Hendrik]

Obviously when it comes to the fight, wherever you're at is what comes out. You're not thinking about basic or advanced. However, when it comes to training and how you perceive your training, it is important.-------


imho
even in real life applications basic or advance shown. thus, the chinese term Kou Sau or advance/higher hand exist. a tan can be a basic disperse type or a lien siu dai da. those makes different. imho



I think too many schools proport a "Hey, whatever, it's all Wing Chun" approach to training. I attribute this way of thinking to poor chi sau perspective; the "whatever happens happens" approach to chi sau, instead of thorough breakdown and assessment of what happens in the exchange of energy and pressures. ------

I agree.
there is a different between give face and accepting whatever, it's all the same.






Most, if not all would agree that Wing Chun is a science, yet according to the expressions of this thread, it is not. If it is a science, then levels, stages must be established where possible. Otherwise Wing Chun is a 3 dressed up as a 9, and we're only wasting our time.----



I agree too.

[Hendrik]

as for the navel pointing to sky while exhaling deal.

check the old picture of old gm does slt such as Gm Yip Man, look closely,
is it just about the body learn back
or the lower abs "sink" into the body with navel pointing say 45deg up toward sky?

anyone care to post the popular Gm Yip man doing tan sau in yjkym pic?

http://www.wingchun.com/masters.html


see for youself on all the GM Yip Man's pics.

without this basic where is advance?


(note: sister wcner please be careful not to push this stuffs because of our different anatomy and time of the month......)





I might be crazy to argue to death :D and sure will obviously not winning the popularity contest.
about other style's set is not slt/snt equivalent, other style in red boat is different from wck, they use wide horse stance or wider stance or yjkym look alike..etc.
but hey, there might be truth in it. and all these truth are hidden in front of the public eyes.



Next time when other making claim about their wck is more original then GM Yip, just ask them how come your stance doesnt support the sinking qi to dan tien such as with GM Yip which is one of the most basic foundation of WC? Look at how Gm Yip applied it in every of his action that cannot be cheat. it is a habit cultivated be it in static or dynamic action.

One wants to ground or root? it is not just mascular or bone structure issue, breathing is the third element which play major part.

some basic for advance to build on top. without the basic it is just go no where. imho.

imho, there are lots of basics lost in time for past 60 years. how to have advance? if wck keep bleed its life blood away ?


just my 5 cents

[Matrix]

Obviously when it comes to the fight, wherever you're at is what comes out. You're not thinking about basic or advanced. KG,
That's really the point isn't it.

In fact, if you read my earlier post on the thread you will see that it's not "basic" and "advanced" that I'm questioning per se, but rather the rigid use of the labels.
I think that what appears to be "advanced" at one point in you Kung Fu life may later be seen as a basic. I think there's some personal perspective that is useful here. I also think that some so called advanced concepts are merely the several basics combined together. It's a progression and hopefully as one matures as a student, our point of view changes. Sure, you need "basics" in a curiculum, l just don't like getting hung up on unnecessary labels. At some point, everything seems like a basic.

I suspect that some people just like the idea that they are doing "advanced" skills, therefore they themselves must be "advanced". At the end of the day, who cares what labels you afix to it. What can you do with it?

Now back to the navel gazing..........;)

[Matrix]

Hahaha
so majority of human are wrong? Yes, most people breath poorly and have poor posture, etc. Are we trying to be like "most people". Striving for mediocrity is not a worthy goal, IMO.


it is just another step along the path, however, does one even know how many steps needed to get from a to b without missing step? will a is not mistakenly taken or think as b.Some times we will make a mis-step, but that is the nature of the journey. You speak of a-to-b as if life is a straight line. Enjoy the trip. Focusing on the end-game is often a source of frustration. Relax and take in what is given to you and what you are open to receive. By the way, there is no point 'b'. ;)


so, french is label, fry is label, soak is label, potato is label, cooking oil is label... .... and a potato is just a potato, not a "basic" potato or an "advanced" potato. You can apply all kinds of adjectives to enhance the description of the potato, but in the end it is just an edible tuber. Would you like an apple pie with that?

[Hendrik]

Yes, most people breath poorly and have poor posture, etc. Are we trying to be like "most people". Striving for mediocrity is not a worthy goal, IMO. -----


Sure, what you say is great however as I am being pushy the past few days in the forum is that.

saying others is poorly in breathing or poor posture is far from proposing what is the possible proper breathing and posture and what is/are the steps to get there.

Obviously, no one will totaly agree with others but atleast there is something on the table. otherwise, it is always easy just to nagate others .


just some thoughts

[Liddel]

Edmund said -
"You're effectively useless with only a single skill/technique no matter how fundamental it is. It has to fit in with a SET of basics to give it context."

I agree with this statement. But within the scope of this thread, we are discussing what the basics are in our opinions, are we not ? not the fact of wether they are useful on thier own.

Basics in my mind are things we cant do without.

So by this rationale, it is MO that the things that are most used and fit in with sets of other actions ARE the basics.

Like energy use - because it applies to every action.
Like horse - because it supports every action.

Without these what do you have ?

What are the basics of mathmatics ? 1 2 3 4.
these are useless on thier own without context like edmund said but they are still the basics... the building blocks... are they not ?

IMHO this thread has drifted away from the initial point, too many people out there calling themselves a master or claiming to be something GREAT wowing people with blindfold ChiSao and the like, have not spent enough time practicing things like the horse for example.
Some say the be all and end all is what you have when you 'step in the ring' which i agree with, However i would go further to say if you have practised the basics or fundimentals enough, they become yours, and no matter if you stop trainning or slow down your training you have those skills for LIFE. Where as those who have taken the quick fix path as mentioned in the first post, loose thier attained skill as time goes by.

Easy Come, Easy go !

[Matrix]

IMHO this thread has drifted away from the initial point, too many people out there calling themselves a master or claiming to be something GREAT wowing people with blindfold ChiSao and the like, have not spent enough time practicing things like the horse for example.In this forum, that is a basic.:D

[Edmund]

Edmund said -
"You're effectively useless with only a single skill/technique no matter how fundamental it is. It has to fit in with a SET of basics to give it context."

I agree with this statement. But within the scope of this thread, we are discussing what the basics are in our opinions, are we not ? not the fact of wether they are useful on thier own.


True. Point taken.



Basics in my mind are things we cant do without.

So by this rationale, it is MO that the things that are most used and fit in with sets of other actions ARE the basics.



I like your definition now.

Basic = can't do without it. Used the most.
Advanced = can do without it. Used the least.

[Keng Geng]

Basic = can't do without it. Used the most.
Advanced = can do without it. Used the least.
You can't do without advanced.... Without advanced concepts one is just a practioner executing basics. 1, 2, 3, 4, is great. They're numbers, they're pretty numbers. Lovely numbers. Look at the straight lines of that 1. I love the combination straight line and curve of that digit 2. 3 follows the 2. And then comes #4. Wonderful. Put all 4 digits together and you get 1234, that's one thousand two hundred and thirty four. Reverse the numbers you get four thousand three hundred and twenty one. Wow! That's great stuff. Anything else?

[Liddel]

KG said
"You can't do without advanced.... Without advanced concepts one is just a practioner executing basics"

I totally agree if we are talking "concepts" not actions.

IMHO you can do without the basics in the context in reffering to.
You can ( not always ) win a fight with just a punch, right ?

However you cant throw a punch without a horse to support it..... :rolleyes:

So in my mind the horse is a basic thing, that you need an advanced understanding and skill in, however this does not change the fact the horse is a basic cog on the wheel , in the machine of VT kung Fu.

This is where we get all over the place in this thread, because 'basic' actions need to have advanced understanding and skill.

[Keng Geng]

Liddel,

Perfect.

[Matrix]

This is where we get all over the place in this thread, because 'basic' actions need to have advanced understanding and skill.
Yes, that sums it up nicely. It shows the futility of trying to regulate concepts to strict labels of 'basic' and 'advanced'. They can in fact be both.

[Liddel]

I appreciate what your saying matrix, trying to attatch labels like advanced and basic is a bit pointless when as seasoned practitioners of an art we know they can be both.

But for me this is quite a literal approach / way of thinking.

We should for arguments sake, treat it in a more logical way - we know there are things that are simpl'er' that we should call the 'foundations' maybe, not the 'basics' IMO. I think this makes it a little more straight foward. (here's hoping :eek: )

Getting back to the original thread - many people dont spend enough time on the foundations of the art instead wanting to speed through to CK or BJ and the weapons, and when it comes time to preasure test what youve got they blame the art not thier mindset and approach.

We all at some time have encountered things that make us at least question someones ability or title. I.E "master of almightyhness" :D
With thumbs flying on most hand actions :confused: Curious.

Examples of poor basics or foundations -

1) Ive encountered alot of schools that while doing Lop Sao use the wrong 'touch points'.
Instead of Lopping with the area just below the wrist, they lop with the base of the little finger.

Now this sets up a "Bad Foundation" IMO - they then make this touch point the same for many (if not all) VT actions.
Imagine using Guarn Sao with this touch point - ooouch :eek:

This is just one example - horse is another.

2) One time i had a discussion with a guy who chose to use DOWL thick DOWL as a training Pole for the Lok Dim Boon.
His reason was that it was easier to hold and use, due to the lack of weight.
This sets up a bad foundation IMO for the right forces to be used in a real life situation. Why make it easy ???????
Its difficult for a reason, is it not ?

3) One other is a Basic action in Chi Dan Sao.
Practitioners using Fook Jum Da, do not punch from Jum Sao in a stright line to the face. The action should be from down to up in a stright line but the action ends up being more round going up higher than the face and then in the last few inches comes from up to down prior to getting infront of the face.

Now my problem with this "basic" foundation is that it makes the chi sao partner whos doing Tan Da Bong have a bad action.
The preasure in the partners Bong Sao is lessened, as well as changing the elbow power of the puncher.

These are just a few things in my mind related to poor Basics or foundation actions in our art.
It doesnt matter if you call them basics or any other name
- get them wrong and they filter through to other actions changing the dynamic of more than just one action because the foundations were not layed.

Thoughts ?

[bcbernam777]

KG said This is where we get all over the place in this thread, because 'basic' actions need to have advanced understanding and skill.

exactly, training the basics leads to advanced understandings. the main point I wanted to make is that these basics are too quickly brushed over for the more aparant advanced stuff, however the basic elements of Wing Chun lead to their own advanced levels. It is greater to master the basics than to rush through the entire system and to never have had a full compreshension of the ABC's of Wing Chun

[Matrix]

Getting back to the original thread - many people dont spend enough time on the foundations of the art instead wanting to speed through to CK or BJ and the weapons, and when it comes time to preasure test what youve got they blame the art not thier mindset and approach.Liddel,
I absolutely agree with this point, and your examples.

It's a general problem (i.e. not necessarily specific to Wing Chun) where people try to substitute speed of "learning" for development of skill. As if you can force the skill development by doing things faster and harder. IMO, there seems to be an almost compulsive drive to reach this so-called "advanced" level that we rush through the "basics" and in that rushed process fail to fully grasp what we are truely meant to learn. In chi sao, we strive for the fast hit and in doing so over-ride the sensitivity development that is meant to be heart of the exercise.

By the way, I have only come to this realization recently, in spite of being told so from day one. Of course, I could be entirely off the mark here.

[Dai_Daddy]

For youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

[Keng Geng]

posted by Liddel
Getting back to the original thread - many people dont spend enough time on the foundations of the art instead wanting to speed through to CK or BJ and the weapons, and when it comes time to preasure test what youve got they blame the art not thier mindset and approach.


posted by Matrix
IMO, there seems to be an almost compulsive drive to reach this so-called "advanced" level that we rush through the "basics" and in that rushed process fail to fully grasp what we are truely meant to learn.

But whose fault is this really? If this is what is happening, the student is not to blame here; it's the teacher. If this is happening, it is because the teacher himself has little concept of what exactly is basic versus advanced. Unfortunately, many of today's teachers learned from blue collar chinese people, teaching Wing Chun for extra cash, having little concept of how to teach a scientific method of martial arts.

[Matrix]

But whose fault is this really? If this is what is happening, the student is not to blame here; it's the teacher. If this is happening, it is because the teacher himself has little concept of what exactly is basic versus advanced. Unfortunately, many of today's teachers learned from blue collar chinese people, teaching Wing Chun for extra cash, having little concept of how to teach a scientific method of martial arts.Keng Geng,
I'm not looking to assign blame here. I'm just making note of the situation.

However, since you're bringing it up, I would say that the student is equally to blame. We live in a world where there is increasing pressure to succeed or dare I say excel at every level. People want to feel that they are "progressing" at all times. This, IMO, at least partially explains the financial success of MacDojo's. Like fast food, people want fast results and clamor for the next belt grading or over-sized plastic trophy from the local tournament. We want "advanced" training, because "basics" don't satisfy the Ego. we equate "basic" with "beginner" and that just won't do. :rolleyes: If there was no demand for these things, or if students demanded quality, then the McDojo market would dry up. But we both know that won't happen any time soon.

[canglong]

Next time when other making claim about their wck is more original then GM Yip, just ask them how come your stance doesnt support the sinking qi to dan tien such as with GM Yip which is one of the most basic foundation of WC? Look at how Gm Yip applied it in every of his action that cannot be cheat. it is a habit cultivated be it in static or dynamic action.
hendrik you should be looking in the mirror while making such statements because you are the one claiming your white crane is "the original wing chun" through Yik Kam and his one long slt via Mui Shun and ignoring the facts. Secondly
Originally posted by hendrik
For me, imho, power or force generation/manipulation/handling is the core of the basic deep beyond tan bong fok. or slt. and the process/procedure to train to acquire a type of power generation/handling which become the enginee of the system is a core that one needs to based or rooted on. without this, one has not much but drifting from pop application technics to pop technics without a sense of whole and grounded.
For all your talk about force gerneration/manipulation, qi cultivation, force vectors, 3 level layered platforms and other none wing chun terms it has been said that you can not apply those things of which you speak. Recently more than one of my Sibakgungs told of how at the friendship seminars they were witness to your inability to perform or execute anything with success against the other wing chun families present but also Chi Sim weng chun kuen only used 3 moves to put you on the ground.

Maybe you should be less concerned with the actions of others and more concerned with your own training. Rene says you don't train wing chun any more maybe your erroneous statements are a direct result of your lack of training. Is that how you picked your Sifu because he didn't train and all that which he talked about he could not perform.


just some thoughts

[Keng Geng]

Keng Geng,
I'm not looking to assign blame here. I'm just making note of the situation.

However, since you're bringing it up, I would say that the student is equally to blame. We live in a world where there is increasing pressure to succeed or dare I say excel at every level. People want to feel that they are "progressing" at all times. This, IMO, at least partially explains the financial success of MacDojo's. Like fast food, people want fast results and clamor for the next belt grading or over-sized plastic trophy from the local tournament. We want "advanced" training, because "basics" don't satisfy the Ego. we equate "basic" with "beginner" and that just won't do. :rolleyes: If there was no demand for these things, or if students demanded quality, then the McDojo market would dry up. But we both know that won't happen any time soon.What is wrong with needing to feel a progression? A student should always be progressing. If a student doesn't understand how he/she is progressing then, again, that is the fault of the teacher. Without that, what is then required of the student is blind faith. If WC is a scientific method, no blind faith should be required.

[Matrix]

What is wrong with needing to feel a progression?
Of course progress is required over time, otherwise what's the point.
Sometimes you just have to enjoy the moment, and the experience without looking to advance. The progress will come.
It's when it becomes compulsive that it can in fact detract from natural progress.

I'm more concerned about these artifical artifacts of advancement, as opposed to true progress which is proper objective, IMO.

Anyways, it's just a point of view. To each his own.

[Keng Geng]

Of course progress is required over time, otherwise what's the point.
Sometimes you just have to enjoy the moment, and the experience without looking to advance. The progress will come.
It's when it becomes compulsive that it can in fact detract from natural progress.The progress happens each time we train. And the student needs to know this as it is happening, so that he doesn't follow blindly, so he can actually use what he has learned as he learns it. We don't live in a Karate Kid world in which suddenly "Wax On" "Wax Off" comes to light, nor should we.


I'm more concerned about these artifical artifacts of advancement, as opposed to true progress which is proper objective, IMO.
And how do you establish true progress? By establishing levels, "labelling" as you call it - from basics through into advanced. Otherwise students learn in the dark, and have to fill in wholes by posting in forums, like you and me.

[Hendrik]

Recently more than one of my Sibakgungs told of how at the friendship seminars they were witness to your inability to perform or execute anything with success against the other wing chun families present but also Chi Sim weng chun kuen only used 3 moves to put you on the ground.



Hahaha,

1, Cang long, do you know the subject of the threat? who cares about discussing about me? you are off topic .




2, Did your sibak gungs tell you Andreas and me baby sit Robert's baby ;and i got my a$$ kick by Robert's baby with single move? and big deal to be on ground. i step banana peal and fall flat too. hahaha


Btw
Andreas and me was having fun in Robert's home and Andreas seminar and Not friendship seminar.
If your source cant even get that straight. how good are thier words?





You know, stop generate garbage and try to provoke friction between Andreas and me. in chinese, this is called using others knive to kill one's enermy. it is not Buddhist or Yee at all but Low Low character behavior.




You know.
I starts to love you because your great accusation is a great test for me to check if my layer 3 is in chaos or centered. great test stimulus, keep the nasty personal word twisting fact twisting (your expertise :D) stuffs coming.

on the second thoughts, you have to make sure you open a new threat special to attack me. otherwise you are waisting other's time.

and, i will tell you here , here on i will not reply these type of stupid post but reading it and laught. hahaha, who care about hendrik? he is a no body anyway. but you take it sooo serious and important to post a post out of the blue.

Thanks. :D

[canglong]

hendrik
As the saying goes you present one side of the coin and then someone else presents the other side if you choose to perceive it as an accusation then it's just an indication of your own inability to accept that there are actually two sides.

When there is a post that makes 3 distinct points but you choose to only reply to one point most of the time people just smile that has nothing to do with being nasty. You know there can be no friction between you and the Weng Chun Grandmaster because then he might not waste 2 moves :D

[canglong]

You know.
I starts to love you because your great accusation is a great test for me to check if my layer 3 is in chaos. great test , keep the nasty stuffs coming.
If your level 3 layer is receiving nasty karma what does that say about the karma your level 1 layer is sending out. :D

[Hendrik]

Tony,

on second thought, i decide to send you lots of love and peace.

have a nice week end

[Matrix]

And how do you establish true progress? By establishing levels, "labelling" as you call it - from basics through into advanced. Otherwise students learn in the dark, and have to fill in wholes by posting in forums, like you and me. I can't recall ever being told or ever feeling the need to know if the skill that we happen to be working on in a given session is basic or advanced. And what difference would it make? It's another step in the progression, which seems to have an infinite number of steps. I'm more interested developing my skills relative to my current level as opposed to being concerned about how basic or advanced it might be. Maybe at my limited skill level, everything is basic.

The funny thing that I've noticed, and maybe it's just me, is that I don't really notice the progress training session by training session, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. I often only realize it has taken place in retrospect, and well after the fact. It also doesn't seem to happen in a linear fashion either, but rather in spurts interspersed by long periods of what seems like no improvement.

In any case, it really doesn't matter what I think. People should do what they need to do to get the desired results. If these labels work for them, then more power to them. In the end, I think we share a great system and I'll take it with or without labels. :)

Cheers,

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I would say that the student is equally to blame. We live in a world where there is increasing pressure to succeed or dare I say excel at every level. People want to feel that they are 'progressing' at all times. This, IMO, at least partially explains the financial success of MacDojo's. Like fast food, people want fast results and clamor for the next belt grading or over-sized plastic trophy from the local tournament. We want 'advanced' training, because 'basics' don't satisfy the Ego. we equate 'basic' with 'beginner' and that just won't do. If there was no demand for these things, or if students demanded quality, then the McDojo market would dry up. But we both know that won't happen any time soon." (Matrix)


*** Well said, Bill.

[Keng Geng]

I can't recall ever being told or ever feeling the need to know if the skill that we happen to be working on in a given session is basic or advanced. And what difference would it make? It's another step in the progression, which seems to have an infinite number of steps. I'm more interested developing my skills relative to my current level as opposed to being concerned about how basic or advanced it might be. Maybe at my limited skill level, everything is basic.
Matrix I think you and I are speaking from different perspectives; you from the student perspective, and me from the teacher perspective. You're right, you as a student should not be concerned about basic versus advanced. I as a teacher must. I must be aware of the changes a student experiences from one class to another. And perhaps you're the ideal student, happy to learn what you're learning without concerning yourself with levels. As it should be.

[Matrix]

Matrix I think you and I are speaking from different perspectives; you from the student perspective, and me from the teacher perspective. Keng Geng,
Sounds good to me.
Thanks,

[couch]

from http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html

I love reading Matt Thorton's stuff...anyways...he has written and I found it fitting:

-----
If all you train are basics, then wont you be training only for the short term objective of 'performance'?

There is no such thing as "advanced" techniques in fighting.

The same armbar Rickson Gracie uses, is the same armbar a white belt with one month in uses. The same triangle choke, the same elbow escape, etc. The difference between 'advanced' technique, and 'beginner' technique, is simply the timing, tightness, and efficiency of the movement.

The same holds true for wrestling. The same double leg 6 years olds are taught in pee-wee wrestling class is the same double leg the olympic level "experts" use.

In Judo experts of the Art spend lifetimes perfecting two or three of the "basic" throws. Yes, the exact same throws taught to all beginners.

Lennox Lewis doesn't throw an "advanced" left hook. . .same basics, same basics, same basics. Fundamentals, that is what ALL functional fighting arts offer.

Fundamentals done really well. . . .those are advanced techniques.
-----

Best,
Kenton Sefcik