why you should not bong high

[nelsonmarcelino]

http://detroitwingchun.com/lop2.htm

http://detroitwingchun.com/lopsao1.htm

[couch]

When you demonstrated your Bong Sau at chin-level - you said this was too high.

But what if you're in a pre-contact situation (as I don't like to just enter with a Bong), and somebody goes to strike your face. You don't want to Bong?

Plus, the maxim: the Bong never stays or the Bong should never be seen.

If my opponent's Bong is just hanging out there waiting for me to do something, then heck yes I'm going to get it out of the way.

Plus, if you think that the Bong is weak with straightforward pressure, I feel you're wrong. The Bong is only weak up and down...same as the Lan Sau (hence the nickname of "The Fence"). The Lan and Bong are strong head-on and side to side.

All the "shapes" have their respective strengths and weaknesses and I think that Chi Sau is where you play with this.

One last thing. If you have a "wrong" Bong, then your opponent can attack your ribs with a "higher" Bong because he has a free hand. If you are same-side as him (your left Bong, his right punch), he can't hit you with that right hand without your sensitivity telling you that he disengaged! Hand lost, thrust forward!

It's good for discussion.

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

How many times have i seen people using bong sao in forms and chi sao where the elbow is lower or at the same level as the wrist. (flat)

This is an area we can talk about that needs improvement with regards to Bong Sao.

I couldnt see the vids posted but just for this discussion, to me as long as you have the wrist lower than the elbow (downward slope) height only becomes an issue as a result of the height of your opponent.

If you are touching hands with someone that is much much taller than you you WILL have to raise you Bong higher than your chin !
If your saying that this level is too high then i disagree. (for certain circumstances)

ALSO -
Many actions are weak when certain forces are apllied to them but the genius of our kung fu means that we can (and in fact are wanting to ) change that force back into attack.

Press down my bong - i wont fight it - ill attack with the elbow.
Press in - i wont fight it - i can turn it away and Tan Da. etc tec.

In short -
IMO the height of the bong sao is not as important as the relationship between the heights of the elbow and wrist.

[couch]

Press down my bong - i wont fight it - ill attack with the elbow.
Press in - i wont fight it - i can turn it away and Tan Da. etc tec.

In short -
IMO the height of the bong sao is not as important as the relationship between the heights of the elbow and wrist.

Very good points. Good continuation of the discussion. :)

There's always redirection of the force and proper positioning according to your opponent.

If you want to wait to download...here's the links for the videos:
http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/lop2.wmv

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/lopsao1.wmv

I also believe this thread was started because of my comments of the vids in "ghostrider" thread.

Best,
Kenton

[Mr Punch]

Thanks again Nelson and Kenton (for some reason Nelson, I still can't get them from your links, even after waiting).

I'm with Kenton and Liddel on this. The bong should

a) only be there for a second
b) strongest from the front angle (that's why we train stance so much: both linking and delinking).

If it is lopped, great, that's more power to my elbow!

If it's lopped to the side, great, I step round, tan and back in using their momentum.

Otherwise, good basics.

[Phil Redmond]

Here are some examples of Yip Man's bong sau.
PR

[reneritchie]

You can Bong 'high', it's perfectly fine.

Every tool has its risks and its benefits, and problems only arize when these tools are taken out of those contexts. If you understand them, you're good to go...

[Phil Redmond]

You can Bong 'high', it's perfectly fine.

Every tool has its risks and its benefits, and problems only arize when these tools are taken out of those contexts. If you understand them, you're good to go...
Exacto Rene. There is even a Gou Bong Sau which is even higher than the "normal" one. ;)
PR

[YungChun]

There is even a Gou Bong Sau which is even higher than the "normal" one. ;)



Correct, and probably better for intercepting a high gate attack in sparring or fighting. But the standard Bong can be deployed faster from a non ready position IMO because it is led by the elbow, which leads the motion, taking the higher position over the wrist. In my and other's experience if you are just standing there with your arms at your sides and you are surprised you may find yourself doing a standard Bong as a flinch response. The way I was trained, this tendency has asserted itself lots of times, and I find that it's because you can get that elbow up faster than you can get the hand or forearm up for cover.

However, some families have said that Bong should not be used from a non contact or outside situation. While I appreciate how this relates to Bong's major use in redirecting and changing with energy and contact I think it misses the fact that there are different situations and levels of readiness where a standard Bong may just *happen* or where it may be used in conjunction with another hand to deal with great force from an outside and non contact condition or situation.

[Liddel]

Nelson ive seen the vids today and i have to ask.

Dont you train as though you are fighting a good fighter ?

I only ask this as you offer (in the vid) reasons as to why not to bong high, but i have a problem with each example if you have a smart / skilled opponent.

You senario would work against a dummy IMO but not someone of skill.

You first say not to bong high because if a force is applied to the bong it can disrupt your horse and send you backward with your forearm in your face.

My natural reaction would be to turn to tan sao or (my personal fav - elbow)

the other explanations were the same for me, there are actions that are instinctive that should be given.

Bong sao and Tan Sao ARE brother actions.
What do i mean ?
Push down / apply force to my bong sao - i turn to Tan.
Press down / apply force to my Tan Sao i turn to bong.
You caould keen giving force to my Bong and Tan and i could chop and change all day,
In each occasion the force is let go...

One other thing, sometimes we give openings to opponents to lure them in.
Eveytime i have my Bong out, high or low, i am aware of the empty space below it so my guarn is ready and waiting ( in my mind ) for the certain movements felt through our bridge giving the GREEN LIGHT to guarn da.

one other prob i have from the vid is when your wu is to close to the bong and the opponent grabs your wu crossing your hands and pulling your arms down, you let him punch ypu as if you are dead or cant react but you can and in fact should bong with the other ( wu ) hand to maintain position and space. the action would resemble Kwan Sao.

Now you may know this and this is just a vid for newer students to the art which is cool, but for people that have reached Chum Kui level i would call it dead Ku Fu or to be more diplomatic it is co-operative at best.

Im just discussing here - i DO appreciate you sharing :)

[Mr Punch]

I'd assumed he is just going over a couple of very basic concepts...

it's not a drill and it's not training, it's a demo, right?

Personally I don't use bong much anyway outside of chi sao or the first movement of a salvo in sparring/free drills. High bong is fine too, but again low percentage as a deflection and I only use it to jam them up and redirect force back against the attack.

[bcbernam777]

Use Bong Sau where it is needed

[ghostofwingchun]

Use Bong Sau where it is needed

LOL! Yes . . . and invest your money only in stocks that are going up! It is the where-it-is-needed part that is the rub . . . once we get that down . . . like being able to tell which stocks are going up . . . the rest is easy.

Thanks,

Ghost

[reneritchie]

Phil - My face has loved it some Gao Bong protection from time to time :)

Some Bong Sao spiral into an attack to intercept it's specific line. But in application, what the specific line of attack is can not always be initially obvious, and thus you'll need to cover a range of area, whch is where some other Bong Sao come in (such as a couple of the ones in Chum Kiu -- least the version I learned).

For example, if you turn around, see fast, incoming movement in your peripheral vision, and your instincts tell you it's an @$$ whoopin' inbound, there most likely will not be sufficient time to figure out what limb/weapon is even attacking you, much less where exactly it will cross before impact. So, a horizontal, vertical, or diagonally sweeping Bong Sao can cover all that space until contact is made, and then tactile reflex can take over and adapt into a better shape to counter.

Since 'Bong Sao Doesn't Stop or Stay', it does that quite well.

[Keng Geng]

The problem I see in most demonstrations, is that the opponent, the supposed "threat" is not presenting a threat at all. The 2nd problem is that the supposed threats are in Wing Chun form, i.e. the opponent is presenting a Wing Chun response which is not likely to be a realistic response from a potential aggressor. What I was seeing in the demonstrations is that at any point, regardless of what the smaller guy was doing, that big guy could have just bear hugged him. Yes, the punches can come flying in, but many guys can take punches to the face. The "whoever gets there first" and assuming those punches are going to put that guy down, doesn't fly.

As with everything in Winch Chun, and as suggested in some of the responses in this thread, there's a response for everything. Each techniques has its advantages and holes. Based on the way most punches come in you're not likely going to use the bong as demonstrated. It's most likely to come in on a higher line or a lower line.

And as suggested, bong never stays; neither does any technique in Wing Chun. So the pressure on the high bong theory don't stick.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil - My face has loved it some Gao Bong protection from time to time :)

Some Bong Sao spiral into an attack to intercept it's specific line. But in application, what the specific line of attack is can not always be initially obvious, and thus you'll need to cover a range of area, whch is where some other Bong Sao come in (such as a couple of the ones in Chum Kiu -- least the version I learned).

For example, if you turn around, see fast, incoming movement in your peripheral vision, and your instincts tell you it's an @$$ whoopin' inbound, there most likely will not be sufficient time to figure out what limb/weapon is even attacking you, much less where exactly it will cross before impact. So, a horizontal, vertical, or diagonally sweeping Bong Sao can cover all that space until contact is made, and then tactile reflex can take over and adapt into a better shape to counter.

Since 'Bong Sao Doesn't Stop or Stay', it does that quite well.
Rene, I concur regarding the gou bong sau. The Daaih (low) bong can also save you from getting punched or kicked to the solar plexus or abdomen.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle. So any force applied to the bong would be deflected to the side and not into the center of gravity. Also, the bong wouldn't stay in place long enough for your side to be open. Especially if the person has good contact reflexes.
PR

[Liddel]

Phil said -
"I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle."

Phil i too have being told this by my Sifu, IMO this is one case as pointed out by KG, good for chi sao but not specifically for fighting. Although the situation can arise.

During Lop Sao drills where i train, we are face to face when giving Bong Sao (so its square), but from time to time we also change the drill to that of how my Sifu used to train the most which is the Lop Sao drill with your horse Turned to the side so the bong is not face to face (like you mention).

We train both ways but i notice at least in my area and from the vids ive seen on the net, Most people practice the Lop Sao Drill face to face with the sqaure Bong.

Interesting :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Phil said -
"I've studied with 8 WC sifus and four of them studied with Yip Man. I was always taught that the bong was never used square on in a combat situation but at an angle."

Phil i too have being told this by my Sifu, IMO this is one case as pointed out by KG, good for chi sao but not specifically for fighting. Although the situation can arise.

During Lop Sao drills where i train, we are face to face when giving Bong Sao (so its square), but from time to time we also change the drill to that of how my Sifu used to train the most which is the Lop Sao drill with your horse Turned to the side so the bong is not face to face (like you mention).

We train both ways but i notice at least in my area and from the vids ive seen on the net, Most people practice the Lop Sao Drill face to face with the sqaure Bong.

Interesting :rolleyes:
I've been taught that we do our forms and "some" aspects of chi sau square on so that we'll know where our arms should be in relationship to our center. Later we learn to use angles so as not to meet force with force. If you'll notice the bong sau on the dummy isn't used square on regardless of lineage. It's used to angle/deflect an attack away from you. The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force. You learn this from your contact reflex training in chi sau.
PR

[fiamacho]

Everything is relative to where your opponent is at the time that their attack is thrown . What we need to remember is that all fights occur in the "grey zone" nothing is black and white.

Due to my TWC background I normally fight in the Side Fighting Stance there have been times when I have used the Bong Sao from the Neutral Stance as a jab could of been thrown while I was in the process of changing my stance.

Yes there are times when you bong high and obviously you may need to apply low as well, there is no "hard and fast rule", in my time as a Bouncer this was moist certainly the case.

I see the bong sau as been one of the most effective defensive/counter attacking techniques in the Wing Chun arsenal, would I leave it hanging out there NO this is just plain stupid and makes very little sense to do so.

Bong Sau is extremely effective due to its' versatility, it is not a technique that should be confined to mindless lineage debate.

[Mr Punch]

ttt for Nelson... noticed you'd been back on and was wondering if you were going to join in your own party!? :)

No aggro, just want to hear your opinion.

[Kapten Klutz]

The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force.

Thanks for a very helpful comment. I'm new to the style and it's explanations like this that help make things gel.

One of the nice things about being a beginner is getting that little lightbulb pretty often since there are so many basics to be learned.

[canglong]

originally posted by phil Redmond(originally from Brooklyn)
I've been taught that we do our forms and "some" aspects of chi sau square on so that we'll know where our arms should be in relationship to our center. Later we learn to use angles so as not to meet force with force. If you'll notice the bong sau on the dummy isn't used square on regardless of lineage. It's used to angle/deflect an attack away from you. The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force. You learn this from your contact reflex training in chi sau. Redmond Sifu,
Good points indeed my question is in the 1st demo of the bong being knocked backwards did you see the incoming energy going to the center or was it the shoulder? To me it was the shoulder and it makes me wonder why the incoming energy was going to the shoulder and not the center.

[Mr Punch]

Good points Phil.

My mine dislike of doing bong high are that:

1) it's very difficult to time against any punch that isn't straight or staying out.
2) it opens up your flank.

The ways to avoid this are:

1) angle off. As Phil said. IMO you should very very rarely ever do anything completely squared straight anyway, unless it's levelling off from a previous angle. You should always turn your hips.

2) Don't leave it up. It's always good to go straight into a tan, corkscrew punch, fak or elbow.

Just a couple more thoughts.

[Phil Redmond]

Good points Phil.

My mine dislike of doing bong high are that:

1) it's very difficult to time against any punch that isn't straight or staying out.
2) it opens up your flank.

The ways to avoid this are:

1) angle off. As Phil said. IMO you should very very rarely ever do anything completely squared straight anyway, unless it's levelling off from a previous angle. You should always turn your hips.

2) Don't leave it up. It's always good to go straight into a tan, corkscrew punch, fak or elbow.

Just a couple more thoughts.
One technique we use against a round kick to the head is a kwan sau. It has to be hign enough to stop the head kick.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Redmond Sifu,
Good points indeed my question is in the 1st demo of the bong being knocked backwards did you see the incoming energy going to the center or was it the shoulder? To me it was the shoulder and it makes me wonder why the incoming energy was going to the shoulder and not the center.
I haven't seen the clip in a while and I really don't remember.
PR

[canglong]

I haven't seen the clip in a while and I really don't remember.
Redmond Sifu,
No worries it took me 3 different computers before I even got it play and thinking about it one doesn't necassarily have to view the clip to grasp your point of view on it.
The demo in that bong sau clip where the guy was pushing into the bong sau moving the other guy back should NEVER occur. No one would stand there and allow themselves to be pushed like that. Once you felt an force pushing into you you would shift or step to the side deflecting the incoming force.

[SAAMAG]

One technique we use against a round kick to the head is a kwan sau. It has to be hign enough to stop the head kick.
PR

Didn't we have a huge discussion about blocking round kicks with the kwan/gwun sao? It has always been my experience (with thai fighters and good round kickers) that this wasn't the best approach. But then I don't want to bring back the dead....this comment just reminded me of the conversation.

Personally, I think the first video's theories are based on a false application of the bong, and though it addresses what seem to be valid points, they would only be valid with an improper use (or timing) of the bong.

[Phil Redmond]

Didn't we have a huge discussion about blocking round kicks with the kwan/gwun sao? It has always been my experience (with thai fighters and good round kickers) that this wasn't the best approach. But then I don't want to bring back the dead....this comment just reminded me of the conversation. . . . . . . .
I remember the discussion. If you train something well enough it will work. We train in the kwan sau method against good kickers. I personally have used it in full contact matches. I first learned to use it in Duncan Leung's school in the 70's and again from William Cheung. It works well for me and other people that use it.
PR

[bcbernam777]

I remember the discussion. If you train something well enough it will work. We train in the kwan sau method against good kickers. I personally have used it in full contact matches. I first learned to use it in Duncan Leung's school in the 70's and again from William Cheung. It works well for me and other people that use it.
PR

Interception against the inside leg of the kicker (it is usually the part they have not trained or conditioned)

[SAAMAG]

I prefer to intercept the upper leg with my body and simultaneously punch them. Seems more efficient to me. Better yet, intercept them and toss them on their @ss. Even more efficient.

But as not to hijack the thread....high bong has it's strengths and weaknesses just any other technique does. Proper timing and placement ensures minimal loss with the highest return of the "investment."

[Roy D. Anthony]

Now it is my understanding that the high bong everyone is referring to is the commonly done bong just done higher than the shoulder line. For what it's worth, goi bong sao does not even look like that, what it does look like is a high fook or a bent Biu. That is what is considered to be high bong. Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.

Hope this Helps.

[canglong]

Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.Roy, excellent point couldn't agree more.

[anerlich]

Yes, that was a good point.

Every technique has a counter, or probably several. But a well executed technique requires a much better counter. Practise the technique, experience the counters, and then learn how to counter the counters.

The approach of saying, "well that can be countered so I'll drop it" leads to the reductio ad absurdum (sp) of droppoing every technique because none of them are uncounterable.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Now it is my understanding that the high bong everyone is referring to is the commonly done bong just done higher than the shoulder line. For what it's worth, goi bong sao does not even look like that, what it does look like is a high fook or a bent Biu. That is what is considered to be high bong. Also proving that you should not do high bong because certain techniqies can be defeated is not a good approach to Wing Chun. Rather, one should add this knowledge to their arsenal.

Hope this Helps.

High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height. When you receive force with high bong you mostly use upper back muscle and scapula to withstand brunt of received force. Lower bong allows whole body to support bong structure. Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong. If you do a high bong then the saying bong should not remain defineately applies :D

[nelsonmarcelino]

Yes, that was a good point.

Every technique has a counter, or probably several. But a well executed technique requires a much better counter. Practise the technique, experience the counters, and then learn how to counter the counters.

The approach of saying, "well that can be countered so I'll drop it" leads to the reductio ad absurdum (sp) of droppoing every technique because none of them are uncounterable.

Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one. It is futile to train to have counters for counters. When you train with a technique based mindset what do you do when you are faced with a technique you have never seen?

[Liddel]

High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height. When you receive force with high bong you mostly use upper back muscle and scapula to withstand brunt of received force. Lower bong allows whole body to support bong structure. Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong.

This all makes sence Nelson untill you apply it to the real world.
The purpose of Bong is not to support an incomming force like mentioned in your "TEST". Turning and stepping dicipates the force away from you.

1) If someone leaned on my bong, all one would have to do is turn or step away and the opponent would fall to the ground by your rationale (if they are stupid and dont change to the sit).

2) Just for curiousities sake, what do you do when facing an opponent taller than yourself with regard to the bong ?

In this situation IMO your Bong at solar plexis height would allow room for the opponents arm/fist to reach your face.
Or do you only fight people your own height and weight ?


Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one

Your right but concepts have boundaries, which if crossed break the concept down :D

The only thing that needs to stay constant with regard to Bong Sao IMHO is the gravity effect - the wrist MUST be lower than the elbow. If that rule applies then the elbow can (and should be with much taller opponents) higher than the shoulder.

[GungFuHillbilly]

Try a simple experiment. Try to have someone lay down on your high bong -- it will be harder to support someone this way than a lower bong. If you do a high bong then the saying bong should not remain defineately applies :D

The context of the bong sau motion is not about stopping an oncoming force as much as it is about deflecting it.

And if you are using upper back and scapula to support a high bong...I would have to wonder if you have any body unity or have strong links connecting your upper and lower body.

Try this...have a mack truck speed towards you at 90mph -- it will be harder to stop with a centerline punch than if you act according to context...:rolleyes:

-GFH

[anerlich]

Wing Chun is a conceptual/principles driven art--not a technique based one.

I guess you must feel pretty stupid having started a thread about the right or wrong execution of a particular Wing Chun TECHNIQUE then, huh?

IMO it's both, like the wave/particle theory of electromagnetic radiation, if a may borrow a marginally applicable scientific analogy the way Hendrik does.


High bong with elbow above shoulder line is not as structurally stable as bong with elbow held about solar plexus height.

Perhaps, but neither is the strongest way to hold your shoulder joint.

Getting hit in the face because your bong was too low doesn't do a lot for your combat effectiveness either.

[nelsonmarcelino]

I never said the purpose of the bong was to support an incoming force. I said try an experiment to see which position a bong has better structural support.

1) see above

2)
I use bong only to cover torso level shots.
There are other things you can do to stop a fist from reaching your face than having to do bong.

The consensus around here seems to be to use bong to cover a face shot; I don't use it that way.

[nelsonmarcelino]

I guess you must feel pretty stupid having started a thread about the right or wrong execution of a particular Wing Chun TECHNIQUE then, huh?

IMO it's both, like the wave/particle theory of electromagnetic radiation, if a may borrow a marginally applicable scientific analogy the way Hendrik does.



Perhaps, but neither is the strongest way to hold your shoulder joint.

Getting hit in the face because your bong was too low doesn't do a lot for your combat effectiveness either.

Abutebaris modo subjunctivo. Heus, modo itera omnia quae mihi nunc nuper narravisti, sed nunc Anglice?

"You've been misusing the subjunctive. Listen, would you repeat everything you just told me, only this time say it in English? " :D

[reneritchie]

IMHO, WCK is an overarching conceptual strategy wherein many technical tactics are presented as idealized incarnations of the conceptual strategy.

Every tactical technique will have a benefit/risk profile.

However, saying certain back muscles or alignments can do this or that, IMHO, is not as good a way to look at things as figuring out which aligments are better for those tactical techniques.

You can say a "Sun" character punch is bad because it uses purely shoulder and elbow power. However, does this mean the vertical punch is 'bad', or that there may be a better way to power the vertical punch? (not tensing the shoulders and letting the horse, intercostals, etc. link for power).

And is a high bong structurally weak, or is it being used to clash with force as opposed to slice through force?

Often, the tactical techniques which idealize the conceptual strategy of WCK have gone through many generations of testing and proving, and before any are thrown out, its usually good to explore them enough to figure out how they work, so you're throwing out one screw driver for a better screw driver, not because you're trying and failing to use it like a hammer.

[canglong]

Nelson,
What you might want to do is start a thread inquiring why others advocate a "high" bong so that those differences might be highlighted and some kind of mutual understanding can be reached. There are probably just as many videos on the internet advocating a "high" bong so the videos are not the end of the discussion but merely the beginning. Though you or your lineage may not use this particular technique some of the replies you receive from another thread advocating the use of a "high" bong might surprise you.

[WingChunTao]

I think what Nelson is trying to point out is that the high bong is not as structurally sound as a low bong. I have found that the energy does not go into the ground as well with a high bong. Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head especially if the person your are fighting with weighs 250-400 lbs and is over 6 feet tall. Biu jee seems to be more structurally sound than a high bong to stop the head shot. Besides techniques are only good if you have a strong foundation to support the technique. Without this foundation then you only have flowery hands and it does not matter how high your bong sao or any technique goes there will not be any structural support to back it up. Without any structural support it does not matter what alignments one uses, without structurall support there is not much if any body unity.

The pyramids of Egypt would not have lasted for thousnads of years if it were not built on a structurally sound foudation. Especialy when there are corridors that run throughout the whole pyramid.

[Liddel]

I use bong only to cover torso level shots.
There are other things you can do to stop a fist from reaching your face than having to do bong.

Yes perhaps but we are discussing Bong Sao's height - so i used a context in which your height argument does not apply :rolleyes: IMO


The consensus around here seems to be to use bong to cover a face shot; I don't use it that way.

But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack :confused: Unless im mistaken :rolleyes: .....Regardless

Nelson - for the intrest of perhaps discovering each others POV, how about you mention specifically HOW you use Bong So that one could understand the context in which you apply your point about NOT using a HIGH BONG.

It does seem to me though that if you use lower Bong for LOWER LEVEL attacks then it only stands to reason NOT TO BONG HIGH - for you will miss the incomming attack and get HIT :eek:
Then one could title this thread "STATE THE OBVIOUS"

[anerlich]

Abutebaris modo subjunctivo. Heus, modo itera omnia quae mihi nunc nuper narravisti, sed nunc Anglice?

"You've been misusing the subjunctive. Listen, would you repeat everything you just told me, only this time say it in English? "

Wow ... you can avoid addressing the issues in two languages.

* yawn *

[anerlich]

Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head

In general, that's true. However, there are some angles from which a punch can come for which bil sao/jee is a poor defence choice, e.g. you are standing facing a counter at a bar and the guy on your left throws a left hook at your face. A tight bon followed by a reverse elbow to his face may work better in that situation.

You may have to modify bon slightly from the way it's done in SLT, but then it's a concept not a technique, as Nelson already pointed out :p

[reneritchie]

Initial position is also important. You won't always have an arm chambered back ready to Biu Jee or Lan Sao out to stop an attack. You might already have the arm extended or even engaged, so you need a cycle of tactics you can change to in order to keep the strategy progressing.

In some situations, due to the initial position of your arm when a punch is slammed towards your head, Gao Bong/Pao Bong might be the optimal response (the response that achieves the most with the least).

[nelsonmarcelino]

I think what Nelson is trying to point out is that the high bong is not as structurally sound as a low bong. I have found that the energy does not go into the ground as well with a high bong. Besides a Biu Jee seems to works much better at stopping a shot to the head especially if the person your are fighting with weighs 250-400 lbs and is over 6 feet tall. Biu jee seems to be more structurally sound than a high bong to stop the head shot. Besides techniques are only good if you have a strong foundation to support the technique. Without this foundation then you only have flowery hands and it does not matter how high your bong sao or any technique goes there will not be any structural support to back it up. Without any structural support it does not matter what alignments one uses, without structurall support there is not much if any body unity.

The pyramids of Egypt would not have lasted for thousnads of years if it were not built on a structurally sound foudation. Especialy when there are corridors that run throughout the whole pyramid.

Excellent post.
There are several ways to stop a head shot: you can use jam sao, upper gan sao, mun sao, etc. Also within bil jee there are various elbow strike motions and other movements than can be applied at various close distances (e.g shoulder rubbing shoulder of opponent). All these movements have proper structural support behind them and employ leverage concepts to power the motions. Body unity is the key here.

For bong sao elbow position is important. From a square on position pressure received on the bong structure follows the mechanical principles of a truss. The upper arm and elbow are stabilized while ulner rotation drilling forward with a corkscrew defines the correct motion of bong.

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Yes perhaps but we are discussing Bong Sao's height - so i used a context in which your height argument does not apply :rolleyes: IMO



But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack :confused: Unless im mistaken :rolleyes: .....Regardless

Nelson - for the intrest of perhaps discovering each others POV, how about you mention specifically HOW you use Bong So that one could understand the context in which you apply your point about NOT using a HIGH BONG.

It does seem to me though that if you use lower Bong for LOWER LEVEL attacks then it only stands to reason NOT TO BONG HIGH - for you will miss the incomming attack and get HIT :eek:
Then one could title this thread "STATE THE OBVIOUS"

See my previous post.

[JPinAZ]

Excellent post.
There are several ways to stop a head shot: you can use jam sao, upper gan sao, mun sao, etc. Also within bil jee there are various elbow strike motions and other movements than can be applied at various close distances (e.g shoulder rubbing shoulder of opponent). All these movements have proper structural support behind them and employ leverage concepts to power the motions. Body unity is the key here.

For bong sao elbow position is important. From a square on position pressure received on the bong structure follows the mechanical principles of a truss. The upper arm and elbow are stabilized while ulner rotation drilling forward with a corkscrew defines the correct motion of bong.

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

Hello all (this is my first time posting on this forum)

It is somewhat suprising when I read "this is correct" or "this is incorrect". This assumes one to know everything about all lineages of WC. That's a pretty tall order :)

I will say this: I have been taught 2 different bongs so far, each with different uses and energies. One has a penetrating energy used from mid reference up to shoulder hieght (in-out motion) we call a Hok Bong (elbow and wrist parallel at shoulder hieght).
The other bong uses an up-down recieving/redirecting motion which we call a ying bong (with elbow higher than wrist). In my view, they both have thier place, depending on the initial hieght of the attack (lower/higher), the direction of the attack (upward/forward, straight forward, etc) as well as our positions. Also, energy on the bridge (if already asstablished) plays a factor. They both work, when used in the correct timeframe, and obviously, they both fail when used in the wrong timeframe.

So, I guess I can see where you might assume one type of bong can work where another type of bong cannot. But isn't it going a little far saying something is 'incorrect' without giving an example or context, or, not fully understanding someone elses?
I can give an example showing where your description of a bong would fail - does that make it 'wrong'?

Jonathan

[nelsonmarcelino]

Hello all (this is my first time posting on this forum)

It is somewhat suprising when I read "this is correct" or "this is incorrect". This assumes one to know everything about all lineages of WC. That's a pretty tall order :)

I will say this: I have been taught 2 different bongs so far, each with different uses and energies. One has a penetrating energy used from mid reference up to shoulder hieght (in-out motion) we call a Hok Bong (elbow and wrist parallel at shoulder hieght).
The other bong uses an up-down recieving/redirecting motion which we call a ying bong (with elbow higher than wrist). In my view, they both have thier place, depending on the initial hieght of the attack (lower/higher), the direction of the attack (upward/forward, straight forward, etc) as well as our positions. Also, energy on the bridge (if already asstablished) plays a factor. They both work, when used in the correct timeframe, and obviously, they both fail when used in the wrong timeframe.

So, I guess I can see where you might assume one type of bong can work where another type of bong cannot. But isn't it going a little far saying something is 'incorrect' without giving an example or context, or, not fully understanding someone elses?
I can give an example showing where your description of a bong would fail - does that make it 'wrong'?

Jonathan

I did give an example. Watch the video clip!

[nelsonmarcelino]

But in the vid your Bong was not at the right height for a mid level attack :confused: Unless im mistaken :rolleyes: .....Regardless



Liddel, if you were paying attention :rolleyes: to the video it is to demonstrate the problems that arise when executing a high bong (with elbow higher than wrist). That bong as you mentioned does not cover a mid level attack. And hence the reason why we in the Leung Sheung/Woo Fai Ching Lineage do not use a bong that way.

Other people mention using other versions of high bong. I would rather refer to those as high fook because in that situation the wrist is higher than the elbow.

Also an idiot wc sifu was once telling me that at the end of bil jee there is a thrusting up movement referred as goh bong. And that bong was used to block high round house kicks thrown to the head. A lot of misinterpretations of bong.

[couch]

Liddel, if you were paying attention :rolleyes: to the video it is to demonstrate the problems that arise when executing a high bong (with elbow higher than wrist). That bong as you mentioned does not cover a mid level attack. And hence the reason why we in the Leung Sheung/Woo Fai Ching Lineage do not use a bong that way.

Other people mention using other versions of high bong. I would rather refer to those as high fook because in that situation the wrist is higher than the elbow.

Also an idiot wc sifu was once telling me that at the end of bil jee there is a thrusting up movement referred as goh bong. And that bong was used to block high round house kicks thrown to the head. A lot of misinterpretations of bong.

When you demonstrated your "too-high-bong," it seemed to me that it was collapsed. Just like the Lan Sau, your Bong is there to make space for you to work.

So I disagree with your reason why you shouldn't perform a higher bong. If i'm in a pre-contact situation and my opponent throws a straight to the head...I'm using a higher Bong (etc)! I've never had any problems using it this way or any other way. When my wrist is about neck level, the elbow has to be higher than the shoulder because of structural (and not getting your block knocked off) reasons.

I'd like to fix your Bong, Nelson, so that you're doing it right. :rolleyes:

Oh. And why don't you give us better examples of blocking a roundhouse to the head. There are many ways to do this and a Goh Bong *might* work...depending on footwork. Most defenses work only depending on footwork.

Stolen quote: "Your lineage/mileage may vary."

Peace.

[nelsonmarcelino]

coach

High bong is not stable therefore it might collapse as you mentioned.

As stated before I don't use bong to block face shots. I would welcome the opportunity to show you this in person.

I don't recommend using a bong to block a roundhouse to the head, so why should i give you a better example?
:p

[couch]

coach

High bong is not stable therefore it might collapse as you mentioned.


It will not and does not. I'm just saying that you can't say that ALL bong will collapse. Cause mine doesn't. High or not.

[JPinAZ]

I did give an example. Watch the video clip!


fair enough. I have watched it. And I see one instance where ONE type of bong can work (where another might not).
In your first video, you show how a 'static' high bong can be collapsed, challenged, etc. I guss this could be the case if you are just looking at a static high bong with no up-down energy and just a rigid structure. Maybe this is your only understanding of how a 'high bong' is used, but it is not mine.
Also, in this example, you and your opponent are squared up face-to-face. Now, the high bong may have a different effect if your horse was open and with propper energies and not static/rigid. Also, I can give you an example where you can make contat with both the high bong and the man sau that cannot be challeged so easily..
I also see in your second video where you are doing a lap sau drill, and in one instance, you press against your opponents 'low bong' and he also is moved back - the same way you depicted a high bong not working (just what I observed). Also, in the drill, the punches do not seem to be challenging the bong, nor do they seem to be driven upward toward the face (and you actually explain how the punch is only forward). What happens when you opponent strikes upward to your face and you are using your low bong?
(just looking for clarification and to better understand where you are coming from)

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Cobra Commander]

I personally feel a bong can be applied "high" (if you want to call it that) in the right situation. It will just come naturally if one conditions himself/herself with the drills and such. Same with a lower bong. It all depends how your attacker is attacking you.

Why not learn different ways of applying the bong and other techniques? Do we have to limit ourselves to exclusive ways of doing something? There are so many types of people in this world who will not attack you the same way the next person will attack you. Who knows if he will attack you high or low? From the side or even from behind? What if he is constantly moving and makes it hard for you to hit him? Maybe in the last second of his attack to your throat or head your only second nature resort will be a high bong?

a lower bong is just a piece of the bigger picture, a higher bong is another piece of the same picture too. Why exclude one over the other in training when both may come in handy sometime in your life?

[bcbernam777]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

[Cobra Commander]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

I think part of the problem with this debate is that some are arguing whether or not a "high" bong has forward energy or not. Depends on whether you were taught to utilize foward energy or not while doing a technique that is downward or upward.
I personally would utilize forward momentum when doing a "high" bong or say even a lower body technique.

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.

[Cobra Commander]

Part of the problem I have with the discussion of where a Bong Sau should or shouldn't be placed is that it yields the thinker to an if/and mindset. In wing chun we learn the system only to eventually become free of the system, to allow fluidity and responsivness in any given situation. The process of combat is fast, furious and fluid, you dont have a game plan you simply respond to your oponant, you follow him, and use his tools against him. This means that your oponant can attack at any angle, any degree, and at any range of force, which only gives you the time to simply respond. There are thousands of possible responses in a given situation and it is up to you to neurologically resopond in a a nano second to what is happening. I find that the if/and mentality lacks this essentialo fluidity, and freezes your mind at crucial moments, which is why I said earlier, if you need it high then do it high, if you need it low then do it low, wherever you need it do it.

I think part of the problem with this debate is that some are arguing whether or not a "high" bong has forward energy or not. Depends on whether you were taught to utilize foward energy or not while doing a technique that is downward or upward.
I personally would utilize forward momentum when doing a "high" bong or say even a lower body technique.

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.

[bcbernam777]

Just because you are travelling upward or downward doesn't mean you cannot move forward too.


True, this is the development of the YJKYM, the forward energy must be and can be behind every single hand in Wing Chun, otherwise why does the Sui Lum Tao exist. So in sayig this you are dead on target. I think part of the problem comes when people understand the theory of forward force but are unable to put the theory into practice

[jmdrake]

In general, that's true. However, there are some angles from which a punch can come for which bil sao/jee is a poor defence choice, e.g. you are standing facing a counter at a bar and the guy on your left throws a left hook at your face. A tight bon followed by a reverse elbow to his face may work better in that situation.

You may have to modify bon slightly from the way it's done in SLT, but then it's a concept not a technique, as Nelson already pointed out :p

I can't imagine how that would work.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

I can't imagine how that would work.

Too bad for you, I guess. ;)

Imagine him standing facing your left shoulder, throwing a left at your face. Raise you left elbow. forearm pointing down about forty five degrees, right forearm, above and parallel to it, similar to the cross or European defense in boxing. His punch is taken on your forearms, *ideally* you grab his wrist/forearm with your right hand and shove the reverse elbow into his face.

Yes, there are other things you could do. Yes, you are open to a shovel hook from his right. But your real mistake was letting him get the punch off before you turned to face him.

[Liddel]

Many use bong with a lifting motion. This is incorrect. The Bong should be applied with forward energy. Proper angles and structure are important as otherwise a weak bong will collapse under pressure.

A Bong With a lifting motion is NOT Incorrect - Bong Has MANY applications - amoung others - I find this statement CLOSE MINDED , IMO.
By your rationale - SO MUCH FOR CHI SAO - This is but one application of a rising Bong.
Please tell me how you and others that agree apply foward energy to a Bong Say if covering while Retreating, your stepping back while applying bong in this situation has no foward energy but mine would have torque from a turning forearm, ( because Bong should have more than one energy at work) so therefore would have the desired affect, diverting the energy away from me. :rolleyes:

Any action will collapse under preasure, this is the boundary of every action.

A tree will bend in a strong wind letting the force on its branches GO, however apply a strong enough wind ( say in cyclone / hurricane ) and it can be ripped out of the ground !

If you want to talk about not using a high bong because it's not as stucturally strong as a lower bong as you mention then Fine - I agree Nelson :eek: -

However saying NOT to use it because its weaker than if used in another way, is removing it from a fighting context where you have to make the best of a bad situation.

I guess the be all and end all from my POV is - that if i was given a shot from a taller opponent and A high Bong NATURALLY came out ( oops my mistake - damm it should have been lower :eek: ) I would still have an opportunity to survive the attack, and eb and flow - roll with the punches - in that DYNAMIC situation.

Maybe my bong would collapse under the preasure you mention, but maybe i would let it collapse into another action like an elbow from the outside, or a center punch - negating your point and the title of this thread "Why you should NOT Bong High"

This is just MO Nelson..... in the interest of this discussion :D

[Phil Redmond]

The GOU bong sau I was refering to doesn't look like the "typical" bong sau.
Also, the bong sau is used with a lifting and forward motion according to a "few" prominent WC Sifu.
PR

[jmdrake]

Too bad for you, I guess. ;)

Imagine him standing facing your left shoulder, throwing a left at your face. Raise you left elbow. forearm pointing down about forty five degrees, right forearm, above and parallel to it, similar to the cross or European defense in boxing. His punch is taken on your forearms, *ideally* you grab his wrist/forearm with your right hand and shove the reverse elbow into his face.


You mean like a boxing cover?

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?

Anyway, I've always heard of the bong being used as a "deflection" and it sounds like you're using it as a "block". Have you tested this much?



Yes, there are other things you could do. Yes, you are open to a shovel hook from his right. But your real mistake was letting him get the punch off before you turned to face him.

I suppose. But then it's your scenario. :p

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Phil Redmond]

I can't imagine how that would work.

Regards,

John M. Drake
Against a hook punch? Maybe not. Against a round punch yes. I PM'd you a clip showing bong against a round punch.
PR

[anerlich]

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?

I did say it was like a European defense, which is a fairly standard boxing term, also called the cross defense.

You know, there is some commonality between boxing and Wing Chun if you look.


Anyway, I've always heard of the bong being used as a "deflection"

Is it possible there are some learned opinions on this subject you have yet to hear?


and it sounds like you're using it as a "block".

It'd be nice to use everything in WC as a deflection, fact is sometimes circumstances make it into the next best thing, e.g. a block. I'll choose having keyboard warriors chide me for blocking as opposed to getting hit in the face, as long as that's OK with you of course.


Have you tested this much?

I haven't gone into bars and stood side on to guys in the hope they'd attack me with a hook, but, yeah, I've tested it enough.


But then it's your scenario.

Well, it's better than not being able to imagine it :p

[Kapten Klutz]

You mean like a boxing cover?

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

In that case, why not use....a boxing cover?


Nice pic, thanks. That's exactly the move they've taught us against hooks (or rounds? wtd?) where I train WC. They describe it as a tight tan sau. I think of it as a chance of survival.

Still just looking at the scenario theoretically, it looks like this block leaves you further from being able to respond than the bong would, if the bong stops the punch. The bong puts your elbow in the perfect spot for the elbow strike.

In the end I guess you don't sit there weighing options if someone really swings at you. You just react, and if you've trained well enough your reaction might resemble your art.

[nelsonmarcelino]

If you try lifting your bong you lose the truss.

In our chi sao we don't lift the bong--we drill forward
from the point of contact.

Some people like to apply bong with retreating footwork
(step-back); retreating with a bong is very poor wing chun. This retreat would most likely occur to avoid a hit in which case applying a bong cover is superfluous.

Sometimes to make the best of a bad situation means doing something different than what you would do in a good situation.
It doesn't mean doing something bad in a good situation and applying that same bad something to the bad situation.

Applying a high bong against a tall opponent is a risky proposition. He can sail right through your bong with a reverse inverted hook punch and hit you on the grill :D

[nelsonmarcelino]

A Bongsao arm should rotate at the point of contact. For example in dan chi sao you have your arm in tansao with an opponent in fook; you do a palm strike, opponent does jut sao. Opponent then punches, you start converting into bongsao. You rotate the radius around the ulna at that point while wedging with slight forward pressure. You must not bring the elbow back or try to lift your elbow. Instead the forearm (wherever it happens to be) stays where it is and just rotates -- hence holding your position properly and having proper angle is important. The little finger is inline with the ulna bone (held naturally) the other fingers are loose and the thumb drops down. This structure has fully body support behind the bongsao and channels all incoming energy into the ground. If you were to look from above at the line created by bongsao it forms a truss when in contact with an opponent's limb. The truss is a simple skeletal structure. In design theory, the individual members of a simple truss are only subject to tension and compression forces and not bending forces. The whole arm is held in a relaxed manner with no tension in the shoulder -- the shoulder dips, as should be the case in all WC movements - The more an opponent presses on the bong the more you can absorb the force to make you heavier. According to Woo, with a proper formed bong sao you should be able to support twice your body mass. At this point you can simple move forward and unbalance your opponent if he continues to fight against you. A similar concept applies to someone who uses a heavy hand against a tan sao for example.

[Liddel]

Applying a high bong against a tall opponent is a risky proposition. He can sail right through your bong with a reverse inverted hook punch and hit you on the grill :D

100% Correct !
Your absoutly right Nelson, if i stand there and dont react like you did in the vid. :cool:

[CFT]

According to Woo, with a proper formed bong sao you should be able to support twice your body mass. Any experimental evidence for this Nelson?

[nelsonmarcelino]

100% Correct !
Your absoutly right Nelson, if i stand there and dont react like you did in the vid. :cool:

High bong is not stable; hence it collapses into something else (with the chance of your getting hit) or you have to dance around (poor wing chun) like many wing chun people do. That's the whole point of the vid :cool:

[Matrix]

High bong is not stable; hence it collapses into something else (with the chance of your getting hit) or you have to dance around (poor wing chun) like many wing chun people do. That's the whole point of the vid :cool:Nelson,
Quite frankly I look at it from a different POV. Once the bong has done it's job, I want to change (not collapse) to something else. This will in fact reduce your chances of getting hit, but more importantly will improve your chances of hitting. Sometimes the best defense is a strong offence.

And there's a big difference between moving and dancing. Footwork is key in my estimation.

As for Bong Sau itself, I do agree that the bong that you show in the clip should not be used high, that is above shoulder height. If you need to go high, it transitions to gau bong sau or biu sau.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Nelson,
Quite frankly I look at it from a different POV. Once the bong has done it's job, I want to change (not collapse) to something else. This will in fact reduce your chances of getting hit, but more importantly will improve your chances of hitting. Sometimes the best defense is a strong offence.

And there's a big difference between moving and dancing. Footwork is key in my estimation.

As for Bong Sau itself, I do agree that the bong that you show in the clip should not be used high, that is above shoulder height. If you need to go high, it transitions to gau bong sau or biu sau.

Thanks matrix, i couldn't have said it better :)

[Cobra Commander]

It depends what a person's definition of a "high" bong would be.
I personally would not go above my shoulders, THAT would be TOO high, there is another application for an attack coming from above in the Wing Chun forms. Not too sure what it is though i hear it is from Bil Jee.

Hey, who here thinks a Bong can also be an attack? Just curious.

[roomey]

Hello to you all im new to this site,
In reply to can boang be an attack?
i practice wing chun and you can use boang sau as an attack,either by leaking over an opponents boang sau with a downcutting punch in boang sau structure(using boang defeats boang principle) or you can use boang sau or dai boang sau as arm locks or breaks which i guess are attacks.

[Cobra Commander]

But when you do a Bong Sau, what are the chances of it slipping or not being on the right timing?
Is this when you are supposed to change from a bong into something else like a Tan or a punch to deflect/trap your attackers hand(s) away from your center while countering your own attacks???

[nelsonmarcelino]

It depends what a person's definition of a "high" bong would be.
I personally would not go above my shoulders, THAT would be TOO high, there is another application for an attack coming from above in the Wing Chun forms. Not too sure what it is though i hear it is from Bil Jee.

Hey, who here thinks a Bong can also be an attack? Just curious.

Good points Cobra. I think the movement you are thinking of is called bil sao. Bong sao can also be used to attack. This is practiced a lot in 3rd section chum kil. You basically use timing to step in and jam an opponent from extending their limb using the wedge structure provided by the bong. Your stepping in is like a bulldozer action that unbalances your opponent.
The key is to step in. This will not work if you stand there waiting for a punch to come and then bong as a first movement. This is dangerous as you are on the defensive and would most likely have to convert to lop etc. Instead bong sau is most commonly used as a 2nd hand after contact has already been established. These are general rules, exceptions may apply :D

[Cobra Commander]

Good points Cobra. I think the movement you are thinking of is called bil sao. Bong sao can also be used to attack. This is practiced a lot in 3rd section chum kil. You basically use timing to step in and jam an opponent from extending their limb using the wedge structure provided by the bong. Your stepping in is like a bulldozer action that unbalances your opponent.
The key is to step in. This will not work if you stand there waiting for a punch to come and then bong as a first movement. This is dangerous as you are on the defensive and would most likely have to convert to lop etc. Instead bong sau is most commonly used as a 2nd hand after contact has already been established. These are general rules, exceptions may apply :D


Yeah I am told and taught that the bong sau can jam an attackers momentum, and yes I understand you also need to step with this bong and have forward energy. THe thing is, is it a must to change from the bong into something else like a Tan while countering and attacking with your own hits? Or can you simply alter your bong sau into a complete jam on your attackers arms pressed against his body while hitting him a couple of times? OR does it depend on the attacker and situation?

[nelsonmarcelino]

Yeah I am told and taught that the bong sau can jam an attackers momentum, and yes I understand you also need to step with this bong and have forward energy. THe thing is, is it a must to change from the bong into something else like a Tan while countering and attacking with your own hits? Or can you simply alter your bong sau into a complete jam on your attackers arms pressed against his body while hitting him a couple of times? OR does it depend on the attacker and situation?

When steppping with bong your other arm is usually in a wu; at this stage there is no hitting or striking. The bong pre-emptively contacts the opponent's arm (ideally you want to shut him down--don't allow him to extend.) With stepping this should unbalance your opponent. To do this it's important that the forward momentum of your bong is applied towards your opponent's motherline. After the bong step--bulldoze action--you transition to other movements depending on what situation arises. So any of your scenarios are possible.

[Cobra Commander]

When steppping with bong your other arm is usually in a wu; at this stage there is no hitting or striking. The bong pre-emptively contacts the opponent's arm (ideally you want to shut him down--don't allow him to extend.) With stepping this should unbalance your opponent. To do this it's important that the forward momentum of your bong is applied towards your opponent's motherline. After the bong step--bulldoze action--you transition to other movements depending on what situation arises. So any of your scenarios are possible.


Thats interesting.... ;)