chum kil arm break

[nelsonmarcelino]

http://detroitwingchun.com/chumkilapp4.htm

[splinter]

There's nothing there.

[couch]

There is...the problem is that the files are anywhere from 30 to 60mb.

Maybe Nelson can chop them up.

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

I wish to see the vid but while we wait.....

Why is it that people think this is an arm break ?
In my School this is not even close - has anyone here used this as an arm break in a REAL situation ?
If so, id be very surprised.....

My Chum Kui action is actually Jut Sao to the inside corner of the elbow with fingers pointing down the forearm
(not like other schools that have fingers pointing 90 degrees away from the body making the action more like a Pak Sao, and who also i notice have the touch point of the fingers and not the wrist ???)

This action has several uses, but breaking an arm is not one of them :eek:

The arm break senario seems to me to come from those who looked and learnt and were not taught then learnt, but thats just MHO.

If anyone has a viable way of breaking an arm with this action, im open to being wrong and am willing to try and understand it so i can apply it in fighting :rolleyes:

Anyone care to enlighten me ?
Whats everyones general thoughts ?
Curious :D

[couch]

Here's the vid.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/VIDEOS/chumkilapp4.wmv

I just keep viewing the page source and then finding the WMV file.

I've been shown an application to get someone's grip off of my shirt. But I didn't like that idea because I am using two hands on my opponent's one hand...and he's got one free too!

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

Couch, what was the basic gyst of the vid, for/against the arm break or giving instuction how ?
Seen as you saw the vid :D

OR Nelson,
This is a very interesting topic for me because ive long had questions for those different than me with regard to this action from Chum Kui.

Is it an arm break for you ? if not what is it ?
if yes then in what situation do you aplly it ? etc etc

Im curious.....

Do you agree/disagree with my points ?

Couch -
i too have been shown that application you mention but dislike it for the same reasons.
Putting my elbow over the grabbing arm while punching suits my mindset better.

[reneritchie]

It's usually helpful to think of two-handed movements as two one-handed movements done at the same time for efficieny. While they can be used together, they can also be used in combination or sequence with any other point...

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Nelson and thanks Couch for reposting where I can see them!

Liddel, seems you're thinking about the tok sao? That's not what Nelson is demoing: he does a tok sao to demo the next move which is a elbow armbar.

Nelson, we do that too but I've never really done it with the tok sao set-up. I agree that tok sao is disrupting centreline as you seem to, but I use that armbar in the same way: it's too low percentage as an actual break I think.

As such, I wouldn't think to use the two in sequence: it's too fiddly and smacks of chasing arms to me... once I've broken his balance with the tok I'd prefer to hit him!

But that's just my opinion of course. I can't say I'd completely rule them out in that order either.

[Liddel]

My computer played that vid today so i can now comment having seen the vid....

I see what you refer to MAT, setting up with the 'Tok sao'

I personally believe the arm break as shown in this situation would never produce a broken bone.
The elbow is a strong enough joint already without trying it on a VT man that uses this joint for the basis of almost every action in our art.
Trying it with other styles wouldnt produce different results IMO either.

Using Baong Sao would bar the arm, but there would not be enough 'impact power' nor 'leverage' to break said arm IMO and IMO you need one of these types of power and enough of it depending on the size of you opponent.

A more realistic attempt would be to pull that arm downward, straightening the arm and then smack your elbow right into his when the arm is stright.
This would 'at least' result in a hyper extended pain in the elbow :D

That said, in the vid the opponent is controlled and Nelson has the chance (space and time) to follow up, because the attacker is turned away but he would survive to continue fighting.

Im with Mat - PUNCHING is straightfoward / quick and has a higher percentage of getting results, but i understand why this is done just to show this action from Chum Kui
Thanks Nelson.

[Mr Punch]

I personally believe the arm break as shown in this situation would never produce a broken bone.
The elbow is a strong enough joint already without trying it on a VT man that uses this joint for the basis of almost every action in our art.
Trying it with other styles wouldnt produce different results IMO either.
Sure. Full agreement here.

It's extremely difficult to break someone's arm like that. If you have full extension and enough power maybe it's possible, but you don't get that against fighters including untrained scrappers usually. The importance of the flying armbar is more like that of small joint locks I think: to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots.

[Jeff Bussey]

I've been shown an application to get someone's grip off of my shirt. But I didn't like that idea because I am using two hands on my opponent's one hand...and he's got one free too!

Best,
Kenton


Hey Kenton and Liddel,
What I find works best for me is if I'm grabbed by a guys left hand (cause he wants to hit me with his right) I just punch him in the face on the side where his punch is coming. So in this case it would be with my left.
When a guy grabs your shirt or jacket, he can't (effectively anyways) hit you with that hand. So he's actually limited himself to one when you have two to hit him with.:D

Just a side note, don't mean to change the thread.

J

[couch]

Hey Kenton and Liddel,
What I find works best for me is if I'm grabbed by a guys left hand (cause he wants to hit me with his right) I just punch him in the face on the side where his punch is coming. So in this case it would be with my left.
When a guy grabs your shirt or jacket, he can't (effectively anyways) hit you with that hand. So he's actually limited himself to one when you have two to hit him with.:D

Just a side note, don't mean to change the thread.

J

I agree with you. I also like to have my elbow out in this case to cover a larger area. That's why I don't like the idea of me using two hands on his one arm while his other arm is free!

Best.

[Liddel]

I like what Mat said there
"to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots."

This would be my main use for the action now that i think back to using it from time to time.

In reality when i use it the timing is much quicker in terms of using Tok Sao to disrupt the opponents balance and at the split second they are off balance or up on thier toes i either use a follow up punch before they get rooted again or sweep the lead leg, depending if its offered as they re-balance again.

[Mr Punch]

ttt for Nelson... noticed you'd been back on and was wondering if you were going to join in your own party!? :)

No aggro, just want to hear your opinion.

[fiamacho]

I like what Mat said there
"to disrupt the balance and take the centreline to open them up to a couple of good head shots."

This would be my main use for the action now that i think back to using it from time to time.

In reality when i use it the timing is much quicker in terms of using Tok Sao to disrupt the opponents balance and at the split second they are off balance or up on thier toes i either use a follow up punch before they get rooted again or sweep the lead leg, depending if its offered as they re-balance again.

Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned. This technique is great for opening up thier centeline, I see Tok sau as more of a spoiling technique.

[couch]

Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned. This technique is great for opening up thier centeline, I see Tok sau as more of a spoiling technique.


I think that the Tok Sau works well in a Wing Chun world, when the opponent has the elbow down and if they have "stiff" energy. I find it works great, but must be executed with a force that is forward and in and the opponent's elbows have to have the right height as well.

It's definately a "chance" technique...well aren't they all? Not one I would use a lot, but I find the direction of up and forward does disrupt the balance.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Mr Punch]

Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned. This technique is great for opening up thier centeline, I see Tok sau as more of a spoiling technique.Spoil what? The balance, hence the opening to the centreline. I'm not talking about a major movement: of course tok sao is a small movement - so I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'm just talking about a little whiplash movement that jerks their spine around and opens their hands up as they jerk back if you're quick enough (especially with releasing your hands again afterwards to hit them). My sifu used to say it was like making them feel like they'd just stepped into a hole they didn't know was there... but then actually he used to tsay that about bong-lap, and well just about everything.

Incidentally I've had the same in boxing just by moving my head at the right time... their big shot makes them lose balance just a fraction cos it misses, then POP! But since in wing chun we can't move our bodies quick enough and we're not allowed to move our heads ( :eek: :rolleyes: :p :D ) we have to use our hands to achieve the same effect!

If I want to disrupt somebody's balance in a big way, I'll pick them up and drop them on their head! :D

[fiamacho]

Spoil what? The balance, hence the opening to the centreline. I'm not talking about a major movement: of course tok sao is a small movement - so I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'm just talking about a little whiplash movement that jerks their spine around and opens their hands up as they jerk back if you're quick enough (especially with releasing your hands again afterwards to hit them). My sifu used to say it was like making them feel like they'd just stepped into a hole they didn't know was there... but then actually he used to tsay that about bong-lap, and well just about everything.

Incidentally I've had the same in boxing just by moving my head at the right time... their big shot makes them lose balance just a fraction cos it misses, then POP! But since in wing chun we can't move our bodies quick enough and we're not allowed to move our heads ( :eek: :rolleyes: :p :D ) we have to use our hands to achieve the same effect!

If I want to disrupt somebody's balance in a big way, I'll pick them up and drop them on their head! :D

Read the context behind my post as well as to "what" I was responding to. To use Tok Sau and have your opponent up on his toes only works if your opponent is giving away at least 20-30 kg,it is all about very simple physics.

You don't even get that much of a whiplash effect with the technique, unlike the lap sao when executed correctly fits your Instructors analogy perfectly.

Who said you are not allowed to move your head in Wing Chun? This is rubbish and whoever said this needs to be shot. Moving your head to evade is pretty standard, I believe that what you are referring to is your head "bobbing up and down" which suggests poor footwork.

[couch]

Read the context behind my post as well as to "what" I was responding to. To use Tok Sau and have your opponent up on his toes only works if your opponent is giving away at least 20-30 kg,it is all about very simple physics.

You don't even get that much of a whiplash effect with the technique, unlike the lap sao when executed correctly fits your Instructors analogy perfectly.

Who said you are not allowed to move your head in Wing Chun? This is rubbish and whoever said this needs to be shot. Moving your head to evade is pretty standard, I believe that what you are referring to is your head "bobbing up and down" which suggests poor footwork.

I don't want to speak for him...but I think he was kidding!

Right from the start of the Biu Jee (at least the way I was taught) is when performing the elbows: I move my head back. This here shows me that I can move my head around to slip punches.

Even in Chi Sau, I sometimes move my head to avoid a strike.

And may I take it further to say: in the beginning, bobbing and weaving suggest poor footwork, after the foot move pretty good...is it safe to say that fighting is fighting and if a bob/weave is going to take me out of harms way - I may use it?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Liddel]

Fiamacho said to Mat
"Read the context behind my post as well as to "what" I was responding to"

Well fiamacho i think your context is fairly well defined - you said
"Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned."

Apparently it 'spoils' but doesnt disrupt.
SORRY for my choice of words :eek:

You also mention that you use it more to "for opening up thier centeline"
Well i did actually say myself
"i either use a follow up punch before they get rooted again or sweep the lead leg"
Which as it so happens is a result of a more open center line :D

The fact remains that 'I' and others here have used Tok Sao to 'disrupt' or yes as you put it 'spoil' thier balance.

Tok Sao is not a action on its own, add footwork -turning and stepping -
and one could learn 'how' to get someone on thier toes.....

Its "all about very simple physics."
:rolleyes:

[fiamacho]

And may I take it further to say: in the beginning, bobbing and weaving suggest poor footwork, after the foot move pretty good...is it safe to say that fighting is fighting and if a bob/weave is going to take me out of harms way - I may use it?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Yes fighting is fighting but when you are inadvertently "bobbing" and this then nullifies your kicking option then this is attributed to poor footwork.

This is a difference to moving your head to evade versus moving head because you naturally do it without thinking.

[bcbernam777]

Read the context behind my post as well as to "what" I was responding to. To use Tok Sau and have your opponent up on his toes only works if your opponent is giving away at least 20-30 kg,it is all about very simple physics.

You don't even get that much of a whiplash effect with the technique, unlike the lap sao when executed correctly fits your Instructors analogy perfectly.

Who said you are not allowed to move your head in Wing Chun? This is rubbish and whoever said this needs to be shot. Moving your head to evade is pretty standard, I believe that what you are referring to is your head "bobbing up and down" which suggests poor footwork.


Tok Sau without the proper energy is useless, however the same can be said of every hand in Wing Chun, it comes down to how developed you stance is, on how you are able to utilise your own centre of gravity and if you have developed the necessary joint power through the Bui Jee. And no you do not move your head, your entire body is one piece and move together in in untiy, so I guess you better start loading the gun.

[fiamacho]

And no you do not move your head, your entire body is one piece and move together in in untiy, so I guess you better start loading the gun.

Fighting is never "black & white" it is always many shades of grey. It is like saying that in Wing Chun there is no retreat ... another ridiculous statement. When you have to move your head to evade getting knocked out, then **** straight you move your head.

Don't waste your time loading the gun bro, you have already been knocked out.

[Dai_Daddy]

Bad, what arm break? In the 2nd form their is no arm break. The only arm break is in William Chungs so called TWC. If that is what you study you seek a new Sifu.

[fiamacho]

Bad, what arm break? In the 2nd form their is no arm break. The only arm break is in William Chungs so called TWC. If that is what you study you seek a new Sifu.

And you are .... Because so many keyboard Instructors like yourself, talk and like your post don't say a hell of a lot.

[Phil Redmond]

Bad, what arm break? In the 2nd form their is no arm break. The only arm break is in William Chungs so called TWC. If that is what you study you seek a new Sifu.
You are wrong. I studied from 4 of Yip Man's students and they all taught arm breaks in Chum Kiu. I'm sure those of you who know Chum Kiu will concur.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Here are four different people performing CK with the arm break. Three of them are performing "mainstream" WC, and the other is the TWC version you mentioned.

CK arm break1 (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/chamkiu.wmv)

CK arm break2 (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/TST-CK.wmv)

CK arm break3 (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/YM-CK.MPG)

CK arm break4 (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/Sifu_ck_1984.mpeg)

PR

[bcbernam777]

Fighting is never "black & white" it is always many shades of grey. It is like saying that in Wing Chun there is no retreat ... another ridiculous statement. When you have to move your head to evade getting knocked out, then **** straight you move your head.

Don't waste your time loading the gun bro, you have already been knocked out.


Actually it is White and Black, just different levels, and as for the ridiculous saying of there is no retreat, if you pull one piece of a picture out of the picture and look at it, you may come to all sorts of ridiculous conclusions, you have to see the piece in context with the whole for its true meaning to become clear, but this is something you seem to have difficulties grasping. As for the moving and bobing or weaving of the head, the moment you do you are surrendering some level of control by doing so, which is why there is no such thing in Wing Chun, if your Wing Chun cant give you the skills to be able to implement this principle, then maybe it is time to change teachers.

[anerlich]

Bad, what arm break? In the 2nd form their is no arm break. The only arm break is in William Chungs so called TWC. If that is what you study you seek a new Sifu.

Dai Daddy, you wouldn't happen to be a Detroit boy by any chance?

[Phil Redmond]

Dai Daddy, you wouldn't happen to be a Detroit boy by any chance?
Very perceptive Andrew. I was thinking the same thing. 4 posts and he's already trolling.
PR

[Matrix]

4 posts and he's already trolling.There was 5th post that was deleted, maybe by the mods. Too bad you missed it. :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond]You are wrong. I studied from 4 of Yip Man's students and they all taught arm breaks in Chum Kiu. I'm sure those of you who know Chum Kiu will concur.
PR[/QUOTE

I am of Ip Man Lineage (surprise :eek: )
And i can concur that many of Gm Ips lineage teach that the action is an ARM BREAK, where as others do not (but they are a minority IME)

My action is extreamly similar, looks the same (without feeling the energy) to those used in the vids Phil posted,
However my sifu 'never' explained this to me as an arm break, but mearly a way of controlling the arm (and as a result- balance) and turning ones elbow over as well as some other uses for adaptation in certain circumstances.

Our approach is only a bi product of believing that the timing and force necessary to break the arm is not conducive to a real fight (although we think the situation can arrise)
but the chance of the action resulting in a BREAK is small in our opinion, hence our approach/understanding.

Any way you cut it - its 'not' just a TWC thing "Dai_Daddy" u punk :cool:

[Keng Geng]

Here are four different people performing CK with the arm break. Three of them are performing "mainstream" WC, and the other is the TWC version you mentioned.

CK arm break1 - pretty form, but arm break ain't happening anytime, not even a setup for an arm break.
CK arm break2 - bong's are a good set up for arm break
CK arm break3 - same as above.
CK arm break4 - Bong is too high for arm break, but could happen in follow-up on a stupid aggressor, wont' happen on smart aggressor because motions are too large.

[fiamacho]

Actually it is White and Black, just different levels, and as for the ridiculous saying of there is no retreat, if you pull one piece of a picture out of the picture and look at it, you may come to all sorts of ridiculous conclusions, you have to see the piece in context with the whole for its true meaning to become clear, but this is something you seem to have difficulties grasping. As for the moving and bobing or weaving of the head, the moment you do you are surrendering some level of control by doing so, which is why there is no such thing in Wing Chun, if your Wing Chun cant give you the skills to be able to implement this principle, then maybe it is time to change teachers.

Spoken like someone who spends all of their time frequenting coffee shops, sipping Mocca's while getting stuck in to a nice biscoti.

I have been practising Wing Chun for a very long time. Fighting is all about being practical based upon your above post I can see that you spend more time in A & E after each fight then anywhere else.

Liddell- I read your post now let me spell something out to you as well. My reply was not realtive to the arm brealk but on the use of the Tok Sau in isolation.

[Liddel]

Liddell- I read your post now let me spell something out to you as well. My reply was not realtive to the arm brealk but on the use of the Tok Sau in isolation.

Fiamacho - i understood that and replied as such.
Someone like yourself whos "been practising Wing Chun for a very long time" knows any action in the VT system is fairly useless "in isolation".

So why bother saying "Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned."

If you are talking in isolation - devoid of a horse or turning or elbow power or any force for that matter, then you might as well, have put it like this -

[insert action here] doesnt do much as far as disrupting someones balance is concerned.

I supose if i said that a good Pak Sao 'should' disrupt an opponents horse. (which is true) we could conversly say that 'in isolation' this action is useless.

Have i got your point ?
What exactly do you mean by isolation ?
there is a few ways one could interpret this statement, which is prob why you keep having to re iterate yourself to people here.

At the end of the day i did mention in my post -
"Tok Sao is not a action on its own, add footwork -turning and stepping -
and one could learn 'how' to get someone on thier toes....."

So we are on the same page then.
In isolation - Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned." I AGREE :rolleyes:

As a finished action with horse elbow power etc -
It CAN disrupt someones balance.

Im Glad we sorted this out :D

[fiamacho]

Liddel - Too reply to your post

So why bother saying "Tok Sau doesn't do much as far as disrupting someone's balance is concerned."

In reality Tok Sau as a technique without the accompanying techniques is virtually useless and it does very little to disrupt anyones balance. If you understood the technique then you will understand the answer.

I have no problem explaining myself here because it strikes me that some people on this Forum have very little idea of where I am coming from, most likely due to their lack of understanding of the Art or just plain old poor instruction.

[Phil Redmond]

CK arm break1 - pretty form, but arm break ain't happening anytime, not even a setup for an arm break.
CK arm break2 - bong's are a good set up for arm break
CK arm break3 - same as above.
CK arm break4 - Bong is too high for arm break, but could happen in follow-up on a stupid aggressor, wont' happen on smart aggressor because motions are too large.
Forms are just that, forms. The sequences in forms are not applied in any specific order in real combat. It's up to the practitioner to extract principles from the form.
There are different ways to apply the arm break.
PR

[Liddel]

In reality Tok Sau as a technique without the accompanying techniques is virtually useless and it does very little to disrupt anyones balance. If you understood the technique then you will understand the answer.


Fiamacho - I totally understand what you are saying....
The thing here is that WE OBVIOUSLY have one or both of the following differences.

1) Our Tok Sao's (the action) are different to each other.
2) We have been taught different 'USES' / 'APPLICATIONS' for Tok Sao.

I understand there are people different to myself, i understand people have been traught differnt actions and uses for actions in VT.

With this in mind i DO NOT force my version of events on anyone, where as you unequivically state the ineffectivness of TOK SAO where in my experience with my action (that could and probably is a differnt action) HAVE used it to disrupt someones horse.
END OF STORY

If you say it's "virtually useless " then i can only AGREE that the TOK SAO you use is useless.

However this does NOT apply to my TOK SAO because i HAVE used it with the forementioned results.

No matter what you say will change that :cool:

[fiamacho]

Fiamacho - I totally understand what you are saying....
The thing here is that WE OBVIOUSLY have one or both of the following differences.

1) Our Tok Sao's (the action) are different to each other.
2) We have been taught different 'USES' / 'APPLICATIONS' for Tok Sao.

I understand there are people different to myself, i understand people have been traught differnt actions and uses for actions in VT.

With this in mind i DO NOT force my version of events on anyone, where as you unequivically state the ineffectivness of TOK SAO where in my experience with my action (that could and probably is a differnt action) HAVE used it to disrupt someones horse.
END OF STORY

If you say it's "virtually useless " then i can only AGREE that the TOK SAO you use is useless.

However this does NOT apply to my TOK SAO because i HAVE used it with the forementioned results.

No matter what you say will change that :cool:

That's great, I have no interest in changing you, I had every intention of correcting something which I feel is blatantly wrong.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Liddel, for your posts. I think despite coming from different lineages we have a similar understanding of tok sao and WC principles, and you have continued the discussion in a way very similar to how I would have done had I not been busy!

Fiamacho, I can see some of your points, but you are just too intent on laying the law down. As you obviously do not feel happy discussing WC (its similarities and differences) with other practitioners perhaps you'd better stop posting, although I think this would be a shame because I like reading representatives of other lines' views, even if they are couched in 'I've done this for a long time and you obviously don't have any experience of fighting/WC etc' type BS.

Mark, thanks for you input as usual. We have our differences but I know we've agreed on more than a few points too, and I always find it interesting reading your points.

There are too many things started in this thread for me to address now, as I really am very busy, but thanks to everyone and I hope to come back and chat about some of these points a bit later.

[fiamacho]

Fiamacho, I can see some of your points, but you are just too intent on laying the law down. As you obviously do not feel happy discussing WC (its similarities and differences) with other practitioners perhaps you'd better stop posting, although I think this would be a shame because I like reading representatives of other lines' views, even if they are couched in 'I've done this for a long time and you obviously don't have any experience of fighting/WC etc' type BS.

It's not b/s mate, it is a fact. Very simple physics aye Liddel !!!

[bcbernam777]

Spoken like someone who spends all of their time frequenting coffee shops, sipping Mocca's while getting stuck in to a nice biscoti.




Absolutly fiamacho, absolutly. I can see you have taken the course of "how to loose friends and infuriate people". You know if you tried being nice once and a while people may even start to take notice of what you say, but as is in my experiance, people who cant hold thier tounge are impatient, and generally angry people and Ihave enough experiance to understand that ultimately these sorts of people make poor fighters, because they lack the necessary self control to hold themselves agains a skilled fighter. I would say if you cant actually back up what you say with logical and succint disscusion instead of falling back on unbridled sarcastic and caustic comments then that also means you have nothing of any true worth to say. Training a long time in Wing Chun guarantees nothing, it is akin to climbing the ladder all of your life ans suddenly realising you are leaning against the wrong wall. Bad Wing Chun trained will still be bad wing chun at the end of 10 months or 10 years, and from the posts I have seen you make, I find no true depth of understanding in wing chun. I dont men to pull your chain, but if you want to intelligently respond to my posts then i am all ears.

[fiamacho]

Absolutly fiamacho, absolutly. I can see you have taken the course of "how to loose friends and infuriate people". You know if you tried being nice once and a while people may even start to take notice of what you say, but as is in my experiance, people who cant hold thier tounge are impatient, and generally angry people and Ihave enough experiance to understand that ultimately these sorts of people make poor fighters, because they lack the necessary self control to hold themselves agains a skilled fighter. I would say if you cant actually back up what you say with logical and succint disscusion instead of falling back on unbridled sarcastic and caustic comments then that also means you have nothing of any true worth to say. Training a long time in Wing Chun guarantees nothing, it is akin to climbing the ladder all of your life ans suddenly realising you are leaning against the wrong wall. Bad Wing Chun trained will still be bad wing chun at the end of 10 months or 10 years, and from the posts I have seen you make, I find no true depth of understanding in wing chun. I dont men to pull your chain, but if you want to intelligently respond to my posts then i am all ears.

I'm not here to "Win Friends and Influence People" Mr Napoleon Hill, I'm not even interested in people taking notice or even remotely trying to earn "big pats on the back" from people the likes of yourself.

I come on this board, read what I need to read post what I feel is appropriate and then simply log off. You question my ability to apply what I know due to my so called impatience, you infer that I am also a poor fighter because of this. "BCB" I post with honesty, some of the b/s that I have read on this Forum about the application of Wing Chun is downright "DISGUSTING" and if I was a new practitioner, coming to this forum will not only confuse "the proverbial" out of me, but it would make me view Wing Chun as nothing but another Art that is steeped in b/s practiised by a bunch of Latte (with marshmallows) wannabes.

It is very little wonder why people view Wing Chun as a joke, when I read the so called application of Tok Sau, by so called "non angry, non violent people who know how to hold their tongue" it is laughable at best but you are so steeped in Martial Arts knowledge that you know this aye Master Splinter !!!

"No true depth of understanding" and you are qualified to say this because your mother drops you off at training 3 times a week for the last 12 months, and since you have earned your honourary "pink belt" you NOW have the knowledge to question my depth of understanding ... ha ha ha ...

I hope that this reply is intelligent enough for you and your ears are ready.

[Liddel]

You should be able to see why Fiamacho, people are responding in certain ways towards you.

You have put your case foward but have only pointed out your opinion, with no info to back it up other than "Ive done VT for many years".
The only retort to that argument you will get here is JOIN THE CLUB.

And you and i both know that opinions are like ar$$eholes, everyone's got one !
:D

So lets talk specifics to actually not make this a waste of time...


That's great, I have no interest in changing you, I had every intention of correcting something which I feel is blatantly wrong.

So what exactly do you think is blantantly wrong with TOK SAO ?
Or are you just here to preach TWC is the shiz Sei Dei ? :eek:

[k gledhill]

Ive been studying vt for over 20 years,
I dont do toksao .... I have trained with 2 lines of vt
one from yip man to victor kan no arm break...
the other from yip man to wsl to philipp bayer...no tok sao, no arm break
BUT some wsl students do this action ????? just a fyi...
in ma's you can do anything to a joint you like and use the hands whenever and however you want ...the only thing that guides me is a concept,but it doesnt bind me. the system is our slave not our master.


just my 2c

[nelsonmarcelino]

There are several arm breaks that can be applied from chum kil. The idea is not to force a break but rather to let an opponent's own momentum break his arm. Sometimes a break may not be achieved but hyperextension of the elbow can occur.