Is a mantis a brawler?

[SunRooster]

Mantis Gung fu seems to be split by years of different pholisphy but at its core isnt a mantis just a simple fighter a brawler if you would.Ive seen lots of mantis kung fu but its rare to get to know the spirit with which they fight.I wish if anything I could learn the mentality of a mantis fighter when in the exchange is it a smoothering act or a relentless attack? Please dont give me that it depends on the opponent. I really am curious to know what the majority feel as mantis fighters. Train the technique but when time to fight wheres your head at?Whats the driving thoughts behind the acts whats the spirit that animates your charcter?With conditioning being the most important asset do you choose to use its destructive force by blowing through a persons own force or do you just wait and keep your awarness knowing that its there if you need it.Inside the fight theres a difference of being sometimes you get caught like a deer in head lights struck by thought or you act out of routine and are stuck in movement not leaving oppertunity Its a wierd balance inside the fight.Does a mantis stop or is a mantis relentless in a fight?Do you fight to get hurt because you know you can move through it or are you constantly ivasive as if fights had no time limit.My grammer is bad spelling is worse sorry

[Emeraldphoenix]

You are a mantis fighter. What's your mentality? How do you fight? Do you use just 1 mind set? Do you use all the flavors of Mantis? [tactics] Are you just a brawler?

[ChinoXL]

no, mantis fighters aren't brawlers that just defeats the purpose of kung-fu.. we're taught to be very agressive that we keep attacking to force opponents to react the way we want to in order to overwhelm somebody or people

[Oso]

Train the technique but when time to fight wheres your head at?Whats the driving thoughts behind the acts whats the spirit that animates your charcter?

Food.
:D



IMHO, 'brawler' mentallity is fine and dead on for a mantis fighter.

My definition of a brawler is someone who seeks to win by overwhelming the opponent with constant attacks.

Sounds like mantis to me.

Just stick with the strategy and tactics you are taught.



hmmmm, trying to figure out who you be....

[mantis108]

You have determined your "style" to be brawler esque and that's fine. But then what does your Sifu say? Obviously, you came to that through your own empirical endeavours (may be he helped too?). I am wondering if that is consistent with your teacher's teaching? Is there room in your cup still for your teacher or others to fill it? If trading blows is a non issue for you, why not simply just do western boxing, San Shou or MMA for that matter (I don't mean this as a slight on those wonderful styles)? That's just what I am wondering. Why bother with Praying Mantis?

Is fighting simply is fighting experience and a winning one for that matter? What about knowledge and wisdom (ie trading blows increases the change of irreversiblel damage to your body and mind)? If you have a way(knowledge and wisdom) to avoid damaging your and your opponent's most precious procession, the mind-body continuum, will you have the "courage" to accept it even if it meant foregoing a winning chance?

Regards

Mantis108

[Emeraldphoenix]

Had a feeling you would hop in on this one:eek:

[mantis108]

Sorry, can't help it since the forum traffic is not very high and new posting drindles quite a bit. ;) So may be we can get some discussions going. :)

Besides this is not a bad topic for discussion IMHO. So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Emeraldphoenix]

It is a good topic

I have come across alot of "brawlers". It is one way to fight. Not sure if Mantis creates brawlers though. I personally think people brawl out of frustration or a lack of being able to stay calm and focused in the midst of the fight.

When you brawl or go to the ground, I personally think your odds just went 50/50.Myself i would rather not be there when the punch/tech comes. All it takes is one lucky planted shot and you are done. Personally i dont like to get hit if i dont have to.:D

What happened to feint, avoid, retreat,parry, intercept all those other tactics besides crash which is different than brawl:eek:

[Judge Pen]

I agree with Oso. Mantis seeks to overwhelm. So do brawlers. Maybe mantis peeps are better at being effcient with their technique (that seems to be the objection most have with the term brawler) but the mindset is the same.

Besides, after fighting Yu Shan's student Frank a couple of times, I can say from personal experience that they know how to brawl.

[-N-]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brawler&db=*

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brawl&db=*
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fracas&db=*
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=free-for-all
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=melee&db=*

[-N-]

Ive seen lots of mantis kung fu but its rare to get to know the spirit with which they fight.I wish if anything I could learn the mentality of a mantis fighter when in the exchange is it a smoothering act or a relentless attack?Cold blooded and vicious... sometimes with a smile.

N.

[mantis053]

Well here is my take on things , as a mantis fighter the key is not to hit , to be calm and use his head. If you get caught on the way in as most brawlers do. You risk getting knocked out. It only takes one hit or takedown and you are all done. I train to use my mind and my muscle. A mantis fighter's defence is just as overwhelming as it's offence. A mantis fighter makes you fight his fight he doesn't just trade blows with somebody. What is the the point of learning the mantis system if you are just going to sit there and brawl. Any joe can do that. I don't feel that a mantis is a brawler. Signed Nobby

[BeiTangLang]

Some folks are taking being a brawler as someone that doen't care if he gets hit or not; I would have to disagree. The way mantis brawls vs. a "street brawler" is quite different. Mantis does use evasion, slipping, re-direction, to not just stand there and take it; all the while, dishing it out.

So is mantis a "brawling system"? I would have to say yes. Does mantis teach blindly attacking without regard to avoiding incoming attacks? Hell no! At least not the way I have been learning it.

But then I guess the answer really relies upon your personal definition.

Best wishes to all,
~BTL

[Oso]

1. You have to actually fight, when it counts, to know what kind of fighter you are.

2. We still have yet to see fighting from many on this board.

[mantid1]

From the websters new world dictionary -Brawl - to quarrel or fight noisily - n. a noisy quarrel or fight.

Is that mantis?

I have found that many people train for the art and less train for fighting.

My students who have trained for two years along the traditional mantis lines of two person drills, solo and two perso forms....etc would not have much of a chance against my students with one year who do a little of the mantis but fight san shou weekly. The san shou guys are not "good" fighters but they have the expereince of getting kicked and punched (not in a pre arraged format) and are used to be taken to the ground. They are much less likely to get that "deer in the head lights" look.

This is a hard question to answer since there are so many different levels of "mantis".

[yu shan]

You wish to learn the mentality of a Tanglang fighter? This comes with time and you are way to impatient for that, you know it and I know it. You have been taught many many fine Tanglang Techniques, extremely suited for kicking serious ass. I have spent hours apon hours coaching you and drilling these treasures into that stubborn head of yours. You are the one that chooses not to use them and to revert to this launching of ill-guided bombs. You mention this "hitting zone" from what I have seen you fight too far out and thus the bombs fly instead of the precision of the material contained in your Tanglang. Think about it "Sun" how many times do I have to correct you on even the most basic of things? In my eyes you fight stupid and barbaric (marked by crudeness or lack of restraint in taste , style, or manner). Sure you show courage going out and fighting, kudos to you. But this fighting to get hit mentality is just plain stupid and shows your immaturity and your feeling of invincibilty. I do believe in confidence and in training. But I believe in goodness and doing the right thing. You have this attitude with fellow comrades of always having to have the one-up on everbody you train with. You have this "hurt the other guy" mentality and this is not good etiquette. I pride myself with quality students who train hard and make honest livings.

My take: I have mentioned before I feel Tanglang is aggressive in nature. Yet full of precison and tactfull with combat.

This should have been a pm or private conversation with SunRooster, but he took it upon himself to post here without seeing me first.

[-N-]

SunRooster,

You are lucky to have Yu Shan as your teacher.

There are lots of different kinds of brave.

Brave enough to fight is one.

Brave enough to put aside your ego when training with partners is another.

Brave enough to train according to your teacher's methods even though you have a hard time with them.... yet another.

N.

[mantid1]

Sunrooster

I have to agree with N. You are lucky to have yushan as your teacher.

Yushan

Some may think you were harsh with your post.

I am sure some people think I am harsh with my children when I correct them in public. Somtimes "waiting untill we get home" does not work and I have to take care of it on the spot to get the message across. It is my responsibility as a parent to teach my children what they need to know to make it in life.

I think the harsh ones are the ones who do care enough to correct or "guide" their students.

[Emeraldphoenix]

when i was a teen, i used to go in and just throw down and brawl. Because i was young and in good shape this worked for me against 75 percent of the people i was fighting. Then my teacher taught me a fine lesson one day. He put me in with this kid that was 40 pounds lighter than myself.[silver glove champ] turned kick boxer. Long story short this kid was fast and surgical with his techs. I think i hit him twice. most of the time i didnt even know where the hell he was. From that day on it was all about good tech. precise targeting and brawl does not work against a skilled fighter


YuShan, Sunrooster must have some very fine qualities. I would guess that is why you keep teaching him and cultivating those qualities. Besides it is a good discussion.

Respectfully, Kelley.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am under the distinct impression that true Mantis is an art of aggression and one that has historically been a favorite of outlaws for the purpose of dispatching and overwhelming victims with extreme prejudice.

That it consists of a strong straight to the point mentality has been hammered into my head. Yes it is a beautiful style but its beauty lies in its directness and finality. Therefore, i think you need to look inside yourself for what a brawler is to you.

[mantis053]

Hi everybody Well I thought I would try and explain myself a little bit better. I see a brawler as straight ahead fighter trying to overwelm his opponent with power alomost like bull trying to run write through you. For example in boxing Joe Fraizer, Marvin Hagler would in my oppinion be brawlers and Muhamud Ali , Sugar Ray Lenard would be more like a mantis fighter because they use a balance of skill ,speed and power. They keep you away with there jab or lure you into position that they could take advantage of. They also use alot footwork to keep off balance. All 4 fighters were great but had different ways of fighting. The first two were punchers or brawlers and the other two were techincians or boxers. Thats why I feel that a mantis fighter is techncian with a big bag full of tricks. I found this a very interesting topic. It brang out alot of thoughts and oppinions making for a very good discussion. PS. Sunrooster it sounds like you have a very wise Sifu that cares about his students just follow the teachings of your system and I think you will do just fine. Well everybody I hope all of you have a good night . Signed Nobby

[onyomi]

I think a lot of the "mentality" in Mantis fighting is supposed to come from monkey. The monkey is supposed to be fast, mean and clever, but it is also kind of timid. That is to say, the monkey will jump backwards fairly often while simultaneously attacking, therefore protecting itself in the process. I think another interesting point about Mantis moves in general is that despite their extremely aggresive nature, they are generally designed to either maintain or return you to a very safe, "covere" position after it finishes attacking. The "hanging strike" of Shaolin, for example is wrapped very closely along the top of the head and extends further forward in Mantis. We also try to avoid over-extending or even fully extending most strikes when possible because that leaves you vulnerable and requires time before you can do something else with that same limb.

All that being said, my shifu also likes to say "when striking, imagine you are striking a polar bear. If you don't kill it with your strike you will be eaten." When you perform strikes with this mentality, it really makes a serious difference in both the power behind them and the impression you give the opponent. I swear, when my shifu advances on you the look on his face alone is practically enough to make you run away. Combined with his deft movements, the impression you get is of being pounced on by a tiger. I think this is the impression mantis fighters should try to give to their opponents.

[Pilot]

Cold blooded and vicious... sometimes with a smile.

Does this mean PM = Lawyer ? :eek:

[bungbukuen]

Refer to Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings", translated by Stephen F. Kaufman. Without a doubt one of the most definitive books on fighting spirit and strategy. Sunzi Bingfa (The Art of War) is another outstanding book outlining in great detail the fundamentals of fighting strategy. Together these are excellent compliments to Tanglang study.

[Crushing Fist]

I used to keep a mantis and watch her fight and kill many different creatures. I was quite surprised by her ability to overwhelm much larger foes. Lizards, toads none could withstand her fury.

The mantis is supremely patient, she does not go after her prey.

she waits

and watches

never reveals her intentions...

until, at last seeing her perfect opportunity

she springs

with a lightning quickness she strikes

traps

devours

she does not bother to kill her prey before beginning to feast

she knows they will die soon, when enough of their entrails have been eaten.



How do I use this to translate into sparring?

It is what I call "denial of response"

After finding an opening, and beginning the attack, at no point does it pause. Continued linking combinations keep the opponent too busy defending to respond with a counter-attack. this volley of precise strikes continues until the opponent is entirely overwhelmed, or until the advantage is lost and they have a chance to respond. Only then does she retreat...

to wait...

and watch...

[phoenixdog]

Mantis is the sharpshooter and not the brawler.Sometimes however, in the realism of combat,many fights turn into brawls.When this happens,you are at a disadvantage when you brawl.Mantis theory addresses this problem.

[SevenStar]

It is a good topic

I have come across alot of "brawlers". It is one way to fight. Not sure if Mantis creates brawlers though. I personally think people brawl out of frustration or a lack of being able to stay calm and focused in the midst of the fight.

When you brawl or go to the ground, I personally think your odds just went 50/50.Myself i would rather not be there when the punch/tech comes. All it takes is one lucky planted shot and you are done. Personally i dont like to get hit if i dont have to.:D

What happened to feint, avoid, retreat,parry, intercept all those other tactics besides crash which is different than brawl:eek:


I don't think a style creates any one type of fighter. I use myself as an example all the time in class, because students are always asking about their personal styles of fighting. Myself and another coach have known eachother for almost 10 years and spent much of that time training under the same teachers, learning the same techniques. We are similar weight and only an inch different in height. Yet, despite all of our similarities, our fighting styles are COMPLETELY different - you wouldn't know we trained under the same people.

How you fight is determined by your personality and preferences, not by the style you train. typical fight styles are hard puncher (slugger / brawler ), counter fighter, outside fighter (classic boxer)


Another thing is that I think you guys are making the assumption that a brawler will just stand there and slug it out, nothing more. That's not the case. A trained hard puncher has a strategy just like any one else. A classic version is the early mike tyson.

[Judge Pen]

Does this mean PM = Lawyer ? :eek:

Don't insult the mantis people. :D

[xiao hu yan]

mantis fighter mentality is like mantis bug mentality....
in the nature, mantis is cold and quiet.... without any fear....

[tonglongtodei]

Heh, that last post reminded me of that old saying...um, I think I remember it correctly....

Listen as a deer
Poised and alert,
Stand as a lion
Muscled and ready,
See as an eagle
Clear and from afar,
Think as a snake
Deadly and unblinking,
Kill as a mongoose
Swift and silent,
Die like a man.