Long Island N.Y Seminar

[chris serras]

WING CHUN GRANDMASTER WILLIAM CHEUNG Presented by world martial arts academy of traditional wing chun kung fu
April 22,2006 1pm-4pm

semiar will cover tournament chi sao applications


Cost:$ 85.00 3 Hour seminar(major credit cards accepted)

[Angelo F.]

Hi Sifu Serras,

I will be there. Arriving that morning in Philly and will drive up to Long Island.

Hope that is not to far of a drive.

Hope all is well with you.

Angelo

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Sifu Serras,

I will be there. Arriving that morning in Philly and will drive up to Long Island.

Hope that is not to far of a drive.

Hope all is well with you.

Angelo
I'll ride with you then Angelo. :)
Sibak

[Angelo F.]

Sibak,

Yes, that will be great.
My sidai Nate and maybe my sidai John will be coming along.

I have never been to New York or to Sifu Serras's school so I will need a bit of help finding it (the school that is).

Can't wait for the seminar.

Angelo

[Sifu Moore]

I'll ride with you then Angelo. :)
Sibak
Will you be comming to MD on the 8th?

[Phil Redmond]

Will you be comming to MD on the 8th?

Unfortunately I won't be able to make it. I will be at the Long Island, NJ, and Toronto seminars.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I was just informed by Sifu Keith Mazza that the April 22 seminar at Chris Serras' school in Long Island has been cancelled. There will be a seminar in Mt. Laurel, NJ on that date instead. Please call 856-231-0352 for more information.
PR

[Angelo F.]

Hello Sibak,

Thank you for the update. I will then book a hotel room in NJ for me and three of my sidais. Hopefully I still can find one at a reasonable rate. :)

Most Sincerely,

Angelo

[Green Cloud]

I will be at the Jow Ga tourney in Baltimore find out more on my web site under updates at greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

I was told that Sifu Cris Serras is W chungs best student what do the rset of you think about that HMMM.:cool:

[sihing]

I was told that Sifu Cris Serras is W chungs best student what do the rset of you think about that HMMM.:cool:

What does "best" student mean??? And is it possible to determine such a thing? And if he is the "best" is it for now and forever or just today, tomorrow or next week. :confused:

Questions like this are silly I think...:D

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now who, exactly....told you that, Green Cloud?

[Green Cloud]

you know Sifu serras;)

[Green Cloud]

I just figured based on what Chris told me, that he was one of chung's favorite students. Chris told me that sifu chung wanted to move to ny and to move in with him.

On top of that He told me that he was traveling to California because he was going to be in one of Robert Downy's movies or something and that he is going to play his kung fu teacher in the movie. And Oh yea he also told me that he doesnt have to pay organizational fees like everyone else because he is that good.

Should I go on??? hey don't kill the mesenger Chris never told me to keep this stuff a secret. I just thought it was common knowledge. Whether this stuff is true I don't know it's what he told me why should he lie right???

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey GK...who is the Sifu Serras guy? I haven't heard of him before (not that that really means anything) and I usually hear about Long Island KF Sifus.

[anerlich]

W chungs best student

Who's this "chung" dude?

As I understand it Chris Serras is (perhaps about to be "was"?) a student of William Cheung.

IMO Mr Cheung's best students all live in Australia. But opinions vary.

Lot of weird karma here, WHICH IMO WOULD BE BETTER LEFT OFF THE FORUM.

[Green Cloud]

chung meaning william chueng.

[Green Cloud]

As far as karma is concerned, my karma is good but in order to have good karma you have to be honest and set people on the right path even if it may set you apart from others. Achieving enlightenment is not a popularity contest.

[sihing]

chung meaning william chueng.

LOL "Chueng" ???? Do you mean CHEUNG, LOL.

This is a joke...

[Green Cloud]

I get it sihing;)

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . IMO Mr Cheung's best students all live in Australia. But opinions vary. . . . .
Maybe back in the day, but again opinions vary.
PR

[anerlich]

in order to have good karma you have to be honest and set people on the right path even if it may set you apart from others

But if you set them on the right path and you're on the right path too, how can it separate you from them?

The Cubic Zirconium sutra gave specific exceptions to that rule where posting about personal disputes on public internet forums are concerned.


Achieving enlightenment is not a popularity contest.

Perhaps, but all this misstyped whingeing will not get you to Nirvana either.

Can you just challenge the guy to a Death Match (http://alliancemartialarts.com/deathmatch.htm) or something and leave it off the forum? Please?

[Green Cloud]

I said set you a part not seperate you from people?? anelrich are you the spelling
monitor or something. We all make spelling errors, I am not wrighting a book or something.

I also feel clearing the air with discussion is better when it comes to karma than a death match. By the way I checked out that web site. I don't get it???:confused:

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Sorry for the misspelling I didn't mean to call ya Anel rich altough it sounds like you are being anal. Anerlich does that screen name stand for something??

[sihing]

Sorry for the misspelling I didn't mean to call ya Anel rich altough it sounds like you are being anal. Anerlich does that screen name stand for something??

Yeah, his name....Andrew Nerlich:D

[Green Cloud]

Oh I see, You got to appreciate how I made that mistake when I first glanced at his name.

[anerlich]

You got to appreciate how I made that mistake when I first glanced at his name

:rolleyes:

What the he11 are you on about?

[Green Cloud]

Listen friend, your comments to me have been trivial so my responses got trivial.

What am I about??

[fiamacho]

Who's this "chung" dude?

As I understand it Chris Serras is (perhaps about to be "was"?) a student of William Cheung.

IMO Mr Cheung's best students all live in Australia. But opinions vary.


I have seen some of William Cheung's U.S Instructors and no I am not impressed with them at all they all seem tyo be very good at Marketing and general American "feel good" hype but not much of anything else.
A lot of Grandmaster Cheungs besty skilled students do live in Australia AND New Zealand with also some extremely talented and highly skilled students not bothering to run Martial Arts schools.

And those that do run Schools e.g Sifu Rick Spain have no affiliation to William Cheung's Organisation.

[chris serras]

If You Can Tell Me Something A'm Missing, I'm All Ears.

[Green Cloud]

get hooked on phonics bro

[Phil Redmond]

I have seen some of William Cheung's U.S Instructors and no I am not impressed with them at all they all seem tyo be very good at Marketing and general American "feel good" hype but not much of anything else.
A lot of Grandmaster Cheungs besty skilled students do live in Australia AND New Zealand with also some extremely talented and highly skilled students not bothering to run Martial Arts schools.

And those that do run Schools e.g Sifu Rick Spain have no affiliation to William Cheung's Organisation.
The general American "feel good' hype doesn't apply to many of us and not to me especially. I'm one of the disenfranchised (but can vote). I come from a background where you had to know how to fight to survive and the "American dream" didn't always apply. So don't generalize all Americans.
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

Talking about Keith Mazza getting the best of William Cheung's stuff in private - and only Keith....yadda, yadda...

is a mistake, Phil.

First of all: It's yet to be proven or demonstrated.

Secondly: Even if it is true (and I'm not saying it is)...it's bound to cause animosity amoungst other TWC guys - whether they're here in the U.S or somewhere else (ie.- Australia).

Thirdly: Look carefully at the certificate...it says that Keith is the FIRST closed door student...meaning...there could be others in the future.

Fourthly: One look at this thread and the other one (both about Chris Serras) should tell you that where there's this much smoke there's got to be fire...

and that's a fire than can only burn TWC in the long run. You've got to learn who your friends are! And when it's time to say goodbye to those who aren't.

Gabeeeeessssch ???

[Phil Redmond]

Talking about Keith Mazza getting the best of William Cheung's stuff in private - and only Keith....yadda, yadda...

is a mistake, Phil.

First of all: It's yet to be proven or demonstrated.

Secondly: Even if it is true (and I'm not saying it is)...it's bound to cause animosity amoungst other TWC guys - whether they're here in the U.S or somewhere else (ie.- Australia).

Thirdly: Look carefully at the certificate...it says that Keith is the FIRST closed door student...meaning...there could be others in the future.

Fourthly: One look at this thread and the other one (both about Chris Serras) should tell you that where there's this much smoke there's got to be fire...

and that's a fire than can only burn TWC in the long run. You've got to learn who your friends are!

Gabeeeeessssch ???
I never said Keith and only Keith. Also, there were other Sifus there when this was presented so there is no secret. There was no animosity there. We were all happy for him. I wrote this after reading that the U.S. Sifus were only good a marketing and "feel good" hype.
PR

[fiamacho]

The general American "feel good' hype doesn't apply to many of us and not to me especially. I'm one of the disenfranchised (but can vote). I come from a background where you had to know how to fight to survive and the "American dream" didn't always apply. So don't generalize all Americans.
PR

My apologies for the generalisation Phill thanks also for the insight on Keith Mazza's status as Grandmaster's student.

What I would like to know though is this ... If Keith is now Granmaster's "Closed Door" student then what was Dana Wong to Sifu for the last 9 years?" I am only speculating here but is this because Dana has decided to move on and now Grandmaster needs someone to carry on where Dana left off?

[Green Cloud]

Talking about Keith Mazza getting the best of

That's a Greek Italian phrase that came out during worl war two wnen the Notzies were trying to instigate war with the Greeks and the Italians. Guess how that turned out. Any way I agree with Ultimate wing chung

William Cheung's stuff in private - and only Keith....yadda, yadda...

is a mistake, Phil.

First of all: It's yet to be proven or demonstrated.

Secondly: Even if it is true (and I'm not saying it is)...it's bound to cause animosity amoungst other TWC guys - whether they're here in the U.S or somewhere else (ie.- Australia).

Thirdly: Look carefully at the certificate...it says that Keith is the FIRST closed door student...meaning...there could be others in the future.

Fourthly: One look at this thread and the other one (both about Chris Serras) should tell you that where there's this much smoke there's got to be fire...

and that's a fire than can only burn TWC in the long run. You've got to learn who your friends are! And when it's time to say goodbye to those who aren't.

Gabeeeeessssch ???


greencloud.net

[anerlich]

If Keith is now Granmaster's "Closed Door" student then what was Dana Wong to Sifu for the last 9 years?" I am only speculating here but is this because Dana has decided to move on and now Grandmaster needs someone to carry on where Dana left off?


With due respect to all, IMO the TWC "closed door" has been a revolving one for decades. My Sifu started showing us some stuff I'd never seen, and he claimed never to have shown anyone before, that GM Cheung had supposedly demonstrated to him decades ago when he was a live-in student.

Turnover in the WWCKFA is high. GM Cheung has many virtues, but diplomacy, organisational management and a nurturing attitude to his senior students are not among them.

IMO keeping kung fu secrets because of alleged deadliness is ridiculous in the age of guns, nuclear weapons, and suicide bombers. Truly effective techniques and training methods become that way because they are exposed, people work out defenses to them, and then they are tweaked to get around those defenses and so increase in efficacy.

While there is benefit in realeasing info to students in accordance with a schedule for most effective learning, in the long run IMO secrecy hurts rather than helps a MA to achieve true effectiveness.

Anyway good luck to KM, Phil, Vic, etc. Good to see the old man is giving it all to you.

[Phil Redmond]

Bit 'O history
I met Sifu Cheung in July 1983 and became his student though I was already a Sifu at the time. Dana Wong along with Victor Parlati, Bobby and Jimmy Eng, Gary and Joel Young and a few others met him a month later in Boston and New York.
Dana and Jimmy Eng saw my "Hung Mun" (Chinese Freemason), T shirt when we met in Boston.
They were surprised to see a black guy that spoke Chinese was a member of Hung Mun. So we hit it off well. ;)
Sifu eventually put me, Victor Parlati and Sonny Whitmore in charge of the East Coast TWCKFA.
Sifu asked if I wanted to go to Australia and train full time but I had eight kids at the time (please: no, "didn't you have a TV"? jokes), so I couldn't go.He offered the job to me again in 1990, [see attachment]
In fact I was just offered the job a few weeks ago.
Anyway, Dana went to Australia to train full time. We communicated a few times when he first went there. I remember saying to Dana the he was a lucky dog to be there with Cheung Sifu. Dana told me that it wasn't all he hoped it would be. He was working more that he was learning since Sifu was touring so much. Many people used to say things like the U.S. guys were "seminar Sifus" because we didn't lean in Australia.
Well, Sifu was doing world tours 3 to 4 times a year in the 80's and early 90's (he's only doing it twice a year now). Guess where he was most of the tours? You got it, the good old U.S. of A. The few of of that he gave hours of private lessons to had already trained in WC so the transition to TWC was easy for us.
Guys like Rick Spain, Joe Moahengi and others got to get consistant training from Sifu but there was a period of time where Sifu wasn't teaching at the school in Australia. He had others teach for him.
So the notion that the U.S. guys are not as good as those in Australia is whack. There are good and bad practitioners everywhere.
PR

[ghostofwingchun]

Please excuse my interruption . . . of discussion on who is top dog in Cheung organization . . . but I do not understand . . . how can anyone be closed door student of Cheung . . . has Cheung stopped teaching publically? Closed door means teacher has closed door to teaching publically . . . no longer has public school . . . is this the case? Private student is not closed door student . . . inner sanctum student is not closed door student . . . or are we just making up terms or using them because they sound sexy . . . and can be used to market?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Green Cloud]

I believe the term closed door is mistakenly used. The correct term is in door disciple, gneraly when a student is Bi seed ( formaly adopted) by their Sifu).

Once your a closed door disciple it means that you are now going to be taught the good stuff. Unfortunatly now a days it's just onother way to make a quik buck for some Sifu's. Generaly the privalege of becoming a closed door disciple can cost any where from 3000 to 10000 dolars american.

Keep in mind that guys will pay for a bai si for braging rights. Not to be like the Magician on tv that reveals all the secrets, but being an in door disciple doesn't mean that you are any better than the next guy. Hey everyones got to make a buck right??:rolleyes:


greencloud.net

[Phil Redmond]

I believe the term closed door is mistakenly used. The correct term is in door disciple, gneraly when a student is Bi seed ( formaly adopted) by their Sifu).

Once your a closed door disciple it means that you are now going to be taught the good stuff. Unfortunatly now a days it's just onother way to make a quik buck for some Sifu's. Generaly the privalege of becoming a closed door disciple can cost any where from 3000 to 10000 dolars american.

Keep in mind that guys will pay for a bai si for braging rights. Not to be like the Magician on tv that reveals all the secrets, but being an in door disciple doesn't mean that you are any better than the next guy. Hey everyones got to make a buck right??:rolleyes:


greencloud.net
Keith had no idea this was going to happen to him in the restaurant that day. We knew, but he didn't. Keith was caught completely by surprise. Sifu said he was proud to award Keith this honor. NO money was exchanged.
PR

[Green Cloud]

Yea but how much money has keith earned for sifu chueng. I think that was a very nice jesture by your sifu. This is just another example of MA buiss.

Not trying to stirr things up but you got to admitt that it is usualy the top earners in most of these organizations that are bestowed this honor.

The reward is well deserved, but if you think that money doesn't influence the decision making of who gets this honor your living in a fary tail.

But I have to admitt there is nothing wrong with earning this honor instead of buying the honor.

This is one of the main problem in the MA, we are hung up by tittled instead of focusing on skill and acomplishments like proving one self in competition.

It's like saying I'm the grand Pooba in the Elks Club.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...back on planet Earth.


Back in my Moy Yat days (1975-1983), there was basically only one difference between a "regular" student and a "special" student:

Special students had the privilege of paying Moy Yat a lot more money than the regulars - and a key to the school. Otherwise, you learned the same exact things - assuming you were not one of those guys who ticked the man off - then you got to learn less than the others.

And after 8 years there, I was one of his top 2-3 students, and did quite a bit of teaching in the school as an assistant instructor - although without any official title like "sifu".

I remember meeting Phil Redmond very briefly back around 1976 perhaps...as he spent a month or two training at Moy Yat's school.

When I went to Boston in August, 1983...(after leaving Moy Yat's achool in May of that year)....I became reacquainted with Phil Redmond - and in fact we weren't exactly best buddies at first - but I think Phil had to be impressed with my chi sao ability when he decided to ask me to touch hands with him;) (you may not remember that, Phil...but I do :D)...and two of Moy Yat's students who came with me to Boston were also impressed - including Kevin Martin - who went on to be (and still is) a prominent sifu within Moy Yat's organization to this day - and who clearly recalls all the details of the trip to Boston....

Long story short: After the week-long summer seminar in NYC in 1984 - William Cheung appointed myself, Phil Redmond, and Sonny Whitmore as "assistant instructors" (at first) and told us to open a school together here in NYC - and sent me all pertinent lesson plan instructions, sent me three different 8" x 10" glossy color photos - each of which was of William Cheung in different wing chun poses - and all three with words of encouragement and inspiration addressed to each of us individually, and each were signed, "your sifu, William Cheung"...

and he gave me instructions to hand out a copy of the lesson plans and the photos to Phil and Sonny - which I did...

and William Cheung also put me in touch with Blaine Collins...the dai-sihing of the entire U.S. branch of the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association at that time - so that Blaine could come from Las Vegas to NYC occasionally to teach us guys - and to stay with me - which Blaine did several times...

in addition, William Cheung told me to collect money from everyone in the class to pay for Blaine's planefare whenever he came - which I did....and the first time Blaine sent Eric Oram to NYC instead of himself - Eric stayed with me...and I was the first of the three of us to reach the GOLD SASH (Instuctor Grade, ie.- full fledged "Sifu").

SO I'M IN A POSITION TO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT...


and the three of us were NEVER in charge of the whole east coast - just the first school in NYC - that's all.

Furthermore - as someone who has run about 25-30 seminars for William Cheung through the years - and who knows about all the money that brings in for him...

I'm saying that it's important to take Keith Mazza's recent "promotion" with a grain of salt. (At the present time Keith is the man who helps the Grandmaster make most of his seminar money).

Just telling it like it is: Keith, who originally started out as a student of Gary Young (Gary was a direct student of William Cheung)...Keith's wing chun is excellent - but's let's come back down to earth.

[gabe]

Well, this is all funny. I can't believe it's gone on these tangents. Yes, titles have moneymaking aspects. Yes, titles can be just empty titles. Yes, they can mean nothing in terms of skill. In and of itself, to be called a disciple means that you have shown a loyalty to your sifu, which he appreciates. It means he will begin individualizing your training. It is a sign of your relationship at that time. But it is something is constantly developing. The key factor is not only your ability, but simply your distance. Do you spend the time actually doing lots of personal hands-on with your sifu where he corrects you on very intimate basis. Typically, many sifu's don't take many disciples through this, only one or two have the logistics (distance and timewise) and the ability. And relationships change. A sifu teaches you because he likes you. Because he wants to give it to you, to improve you. If you understand that, you never biiitch about "secrets." You don't get the teaching just because you are a student or that you paid him money or that you did this or that. You get it because you and your sifu have a rapport.
From what I hear, Keith is currently in this position. Even if Phil gives him this credit, there's nothing wrong with that. Acknowledging the level and success of a classmate should not breed divisiveness. And if it's true what I heard about Keith, who here can question the validity of his title or even raise the issue of money. I'm fairly certain Keith was doing well financially before he ever got this title.

[sihing]

...back on planet Earth.


Back in my Moy Yat days (1975-1983), there was basically only one difference between a "regular" student and a "special" student:

Special students had the privilege of paying Moy Yat a lot more money than the regulars - and a key to the school. Otherwise, you learned the same exact things - assuming you were not one of those guys who ticked the man off - then you got to learn less than the others.

And after 8 years there, I was one of his top 2-3 students, and did quite a bit of teaching in the school as an assistant instructor - although without any official title like "sifu".

I remember meeting Phil Redmond very briefly back around 1976-77 perhaps...as he spent a month or two training at Moy Yat's school.

When I went to Boston in August, 1983...(after leaving Moy Yat's achool in May of that year)....I became reacquainted with Phil Redmond - and in fact we weren't exactly best buddies at first - but I think Phil had to be impressed with my chi sao ability when he decided to ask me to touch hands with him;) (you may not remember that, Phil...but I do :D)...and two of Moy Yat's students who came with me to Boston were also impressed - including Kevin Martin - who went on to be (and still is) a prominent sifu within Moy Yat's organization to this day - and who clearly recalls all the details of the trip to Boston....

Long story short: After the week-long summer seminar in NYC in 1984 - William Cheung appointed myself, Phil Redmond, and Sonny Whitmore as "assistant instructors" (at first) and told us to open a school together here in NYC - and sent me all pertinent lesson plan instructions, sent me three different 8" x 10" glossy color photos - each of which was of William Cheung in different wing chun poses - and all three with words of encouragement and inspiration addressed to each of us individually, and each were signed, "your sifu, William Cheung"...

and he gave me instructions to hand out a copy of the lesson plans and the photos to Phil and Sonny - which I did...

and William Cheung also put me in touch with Blaine Collins...the dai-sihing of the entire U.S. branch of the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association at that time - so that Blaine could come from Las Vegas to NYC occasionally to teach us guys - and to stay with me - which Blaine did several times...

in addition, William Cheung told me to collect money from everyone in the class to pay for Blaine's planefare whenever he came - which I did....and the first time Blaine sent Eric Oram to NYC instead of himself - Eric stayed with me...

SO I'M IN A POSITION TO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT...


and the three of us were NEVER in charge of the whole east coast - just the first school in NYC - that's all.

Furthermore - as someone who has run about 25 seminars for William Cheung through the years - and all the money that brings in for him...

I'm saying that it's important to take Keith Mazza's recent "promotion" with a grain of salt. (At the present time Keith is the man who helps the Grandmaster make most of his seminar money).

Just telling it like it is: Keith is excellent - but's let's come back down to earth.

Geez Vic, you got some Balls on ya..Good man..

[Green Cloud]

And I second that Kappesh:D

[Phil Redmond]

I noticed lots of me in your post. I don't know what Sifu sent you but we had three positions back then I was President. Sonny was vice president and you were treasurer. If he sent you anything special you betcha that I got it too. I'll be looking for the documents from Sifu and Blaine where I was told to contact people in the east coast and send their info back to Blaine.
(btw, of course Blaine stayed at your house. I lived in da' hood. ) ;)
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep on following you down this road, Phil...because there's just too much funny business flying around here...and within the Association...for many years. (I suggest you reread Anerlich's last post on this thread - as he really got it right).

1) Everything I said about what sifu....our sifu...William Cheung...sent to me IMMEDIATELY AFTER appointing myself, you, and Sonny to run a new TWC school here in NYC...IS TRUE.

Every word.

2) And because it was true (and human nature being what it is) - there was some resentment over the fact that I got the stuff sent to me (And again: when you received the photo and lesson plan - you received it from me. Which is what sifu told me to do).

3) And then add to this the fact that there was also resentment that I was directing what would (and should) go on in the classes as much as I was (which was more than anybody else, ie.- Sonny and yourself)...and because of that, people like Sonny especially - but YOU also - along with some others...complained to Blaine about me being too dominant...

and it was then - and only then...did Blaine order that the 20 something guys in the class vote for "official offices"...and they - the guys in the class - NOT SIFU...AND NOT BLAINE...but the guys...voted you president, Sonny vice president - and myself treasurer.

It was politics. And a popularity contest. Period. (Yes...I've got to admit that I'm not Mr. Congenial...but I've always been a straight-shooter. And perhaps a bit too much in-your-face for some people).

However, and furthermore, Phil...the "me" was so prevalent in my previous post so as to counteract the portrayal you were making of yourself in the "Bit O' history post"...as regards your "PRESIDENCY" - in terms of what went on in NYC back in the 1980's. It was a "title"- and nothing else. It didn't change any of the facts "on the ground", as they say. Because I continued to teach and set direction for the class more than anyone else.

And eventually you left for Connecticut and Sonny opened up a school in Queens - while I remained in Manhattan for all those years. (Until I moved the school to Brooklyn in December, 2001).

And again I'm going to tell you: we were never in charge of the whole East Coast.

What about Johnny Clayton - who was teaching in Baltimore all those years?
Or Anthony Arnett - who went down to Florida and opened a school?
Or the guy in Philadelphia...(Bob something or other)?
Or Gary Young (Keith Mazza'a original TWC sifu) - who was teaching just north of NYC in White Plains, NY?
You wouldn't want to see any of them come on this thread and refute your claims - would you?

The only person who ever had the title, East Coast Director...of the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association - back around 1990,91,92,93 - was Jesse Quinnones.

Have you forgotten that, Phil?

Let's get back down to Earth, shall we?

I thought that the one-ups-manship game of politics and the "let's see who can get closer to William Cheung and get a foot up on the other guys" was settled between guys like myself, you, Johnny, Gary, Anthony, Delroi, Eric, etc. - a long time ago.

And the whole notion that there are many long-time TWC sifu's around (both here and in Australia) who have spent many years being loyal and devoted to the Grandmaster and his TWC system (and in some cases - more than two decades)...who William Cheung decided NOT to teach his "best secret stuff" to...but now he's somehow willing to teach it to just one man - (and that man happens to be someone who has done the most in terms of helping the Grandmaster make money - and who started out as a student-of-a-student of William Cheung)...

just doesn't sit right with a lot of people. People you and I know very well - and a whole bunch of other people in Australia as well. I can tell you that unequivocally.

Keith Mazza is a very hardworking, loyal, and skilled guy within this Association.

So it's not about him.

It's about what's right.

[Green Cloud]

The man does make a good point.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm going to make just one more point about all of this - and then I think it's time for me to leave this subject alone...

If Grandmaster William Cheung wants to reward someone for a job well done by teaching them things that others may have never learned - that's his business - and his right.

But it should be kept QUIET.

Otherwise, it becomes a slap in the face to a lot of other well deserving, skilled, and loyal people who have been around William Cheung for many, many years.

I could be wrong - but that's how I see it.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While I can certainly appreciate the desire to give kudos to Keith Mazza, whom I have never met, I think that some of the other posts serve to illustrate a sad fact. Seems to me that there is some envy and chest beating going on which have little to do with the art.

Each person knows there own accomplishments and unless asked to specifically represetnt their Sifu, all are equal, only skill sets them apart.

Much of what has been discussed or brought up, IMHO has little place on a Public Forum. It is better left to be discussed in private among the members of that family.

I am often curious about what ever happened to the ethics and morals which used to go hand in hand with Martial Skill. :(

[GreenCloudCLF]

I am often curious about what ever happened to the ethics and morals which used to go hand in hand with Martial Skill. :(

Is this before or after MA was used by gansters and groups trying to overthrow the gov't?

[Sihing73]

Hello Jason,

Curious I would say it would depend on your perspective.

The Americans during Revolutionary times were also attempting to overthrow the Government. Also, I would think that there are plenty of examples to cite for both sides.

Getting to the ethical and moral standing is it better to serve blindly or to take any action you feel necessary to do what you believe is right? Sometimes one must do what is accepted as wrong in order to obtain the greater good.

This is an interesting subject however, if one does not have the proper moral and ethical developement than one has no foundation on which to rebel. Of course, there are two sides to every coin so what I feel is justified may not reflect your own thoughts. Todays situations are often reflective of personal gain and not for any greater good.

[Phil Redmond]

Victor, I've already refuted some of the things you said here in a private email to you. You responded and I'll leave it alone here. It's counter productive and really doesn't matter to me at this point in time.
PR

[GreenCloudCLF]

Hello Jason,

Curious I would say it would depend on your perspective.

The Americans during Revolutionary times were also attempting to overthrow the Government. Also, I would think that there are plenty of examples to cite for both sides.

Getting to the ethical and moral standing is it better to serve blindly or to take any action you feel necessary to do what you believe is right? Sometimes one must do what is accepted as wrong in order to obtain the greater good.

This is an interesting subject however, if one does not have the proper moral and ethical developement than one has no foundation on which to rebel. Of course, there are two sides to every coin so what I feel is justified may not reflect your own thoughts. Todays situations are often reflective of personal gain and not for any greater good.

And history is decided by the victors. Had the American Revolutionaries lost the would have been remembered as treasonous people who deserved to be hanged.

What would have happened had Hitler won WW2? Morals and ethics are generally decided by historians, and those historians are almost exclusively from the "winning" side.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Did he say that history was decided by the Victors ??? :) :rolleyes:

[GreenCloudCLF]

Did he say that history was decided by the Victors ??? :) :rolleyes:

Not only history, but ethics as well.

[Phil Redmond]

Not only history, but ethics as well.
I think Victor meant something quite different. . . . :D
PR

[Sihing73]

And history is decided by the victors. Had the American Revolutionaries lost the would have been remembered as treasonous people who deserved to be hanged.

What would have happened had Hitler won WW2? Morals and ethics are generally decided by historians, and those historians are almost exclusively from the "winning" side.

Thanks for making my point for me :D As I already posted it depends on ones perspective. What you believe may not relate to how I feel.

However, for the most part humanity can agree to a certain core set of "ethics" or "moral" principles. For example; while some may agree that it is okay to kill thousands of innocents to include woman and children, the vast majority would agree that such was wrong. Therefore there is an underlying core to be followed. If there were not an underlying set of ethics then there would be no civilization. So while the victorious do have some say in justifying there actions, there is a set of behavior which the vast majority of the world would not accept now matter who says it is true.

I think one of the biggest loses in todays world is those willing to accept responsibility. Far too many, IMHO, find ways to make excuses or blame others for their own actions. :mad:

So you tell me, should be forget about morals and just live a hedonistic life based on our own views and desires????

[fiamacho]

Sihing 73 - Stop trying to hijack one of tyhe best threads on this site with b/s.

Victor I couldn't agree with you more, if Sifu Cheung wanted to bestow that title on Keith Mazza then he should of kept things quiet, this is yet another elaborate, marketing money making scheme.

Acknowledgement should be given to those people who have been loyal over the years, and yes this is a slap in the face for those who have been loyal to Grandmaster.

This is obviously one of the many reasons why skilled TWC Practitioners are leaving Grandmaster's Organisation, too much politics and very little ethics.

[Green Cloud]

I think you have a point:)

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=fiamacho]Sihing 73 - Stop trying to hijack one of tyhe best threads on this site with b/s.QUOTE]

Hello,

If that were truly my intent I assure you it could be done much more easily. Based on your replies, I know what your character is as you seem to believe it is okay to discuss private lineage business in public. You also seem to consider the idea of respectng others and having ethics and morals as BS. Thanks for letting me know where your thoughts are :rolleyes:

[fiamacho]

[QUOTE=fiamacho]Sihing 73 - Stop trying to hijack one of tyhe best threads on this site with b/s.QUOTE]

Hello,

If that were truly my intent I assure you it could be done much more easily. Based on your replies, I know what your character is as you seem to believe it is okay to discuss private lineage business in public. You also seem to consider the idea of respectng others and having ethics and morals as BS. Thanks for letting me know where your thoughts are :rolleyes:

Three things ...

1. If people feel the need to "air their dirty laundry" then why not !!! Remember that this is a public Forum and these people posted their thoughts under no compulsion from myself or anyone else. It is good to discuss these sorts of things as it takes the b/s completely out of the Martial Arts as well as further explains the demise of TWC over the years, lets face it Grandmaster Cheung as great a Martial Artist that he is, is very poor when it comes to looking after his Instructors.

2. Learn to read, I was referring to the ethics shown by Instructors that use gimics like what was been discussed as a Marketing tactic. Good to see that you read my posts I'm not into the "feel good" b/s that seems to be rife on this Forum, call it as it is.

3. Glad to of obliged.

[Green Cloud]

I have to agree with Fiamacho, this forum is a good way to set the record strait. Everytime I try to post something that may be contraversial these guys try to shut you down. This is a publick forum and the only people that can shut you down is the moderators if they feel your out of line wich youre not.

Face the discussion boys and let the truth set you free other wise stop with the repremands. This is a publick forum not a cult for william chueng.


green cloud

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sihing73....

IS A MODERATOR,...GreenCloud. :rolleyes:

And he's not part of William Cheung's world in any way, shape, or form.


Silly.....:D

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=Sihing73]

Three things ...

1. If people feel the need to "air their dirty laundry" then why not !!! Remember that this is a public Forum and these people posted their thoughts under no compulsion from myself or anyone else. It is good to discuss these sorts of things as it takes the b/s completely out of the Martial Arts as well as further explains the demise of TWC over the years, lets face it Grandmaster Cheung as great a Martial Artist that he is, is very poor when it comes to looking after his Instructors.

2. Learn to read, I was referring to the ethics shown by Instructors that use gimics like what was been discussed as a Marketing tactic. Good to see that you read my posts I'm not into the "feel good" b/s that seems to be rife on this Forum, call it as it is.

3. Glad to of obliged.

Hello,

1) Irregardless of whether people wish to air their dirty laundry or not, this is still a public forum and there are certain rules to be observed. We try to refrain from getting into too many personal attacks on one another, specific instructors or families as a whole. While there is a bit of lattitude for thos posting, the bottom lines is that there is a limit. While there are some people, mostly those with self image issues :rolleyes: who may enjoy the petty bickering betwen members or different lines, the vast majority of people here seem to be more interested in discussing the art or in working towards unification not degradation. If you really wish to take part in or read the arguments between others in the Wing Chun community then there are other sites you can visit and you can observe and drool to your hearts content.

2) If that is true then why such a response to my post? Perhaps you should learn read my post more carefully. While I advocate the Sifu passing on the ethics and morals as a part of the art, I was responding to the individuals who chse to air their laundry in public. Not only is this not the place for that, with some exceptions, but doing so rarely leads to anything but strife between members. It is far better, IMHO, to discuss some things in private, which some members have opted to do.

I am glad you do not agree with some of the "gimic" used in marketing. There are many things which are used to sell every product inclding Wing Chun. Not all of them are proper.

3) Thank you ;)

[Sihing73]

I have to agree with Fiamacho, this forum is a good way to set the record strait. Everytime I try to post something that may be contraversial these guys try to shut you down. This is a publick forum and the only people that can shut you down is the moderators if they feel your out of line wich youre not.

Face the discussion boys and let the truth set you free other wise stop with the repremands. This is a publick forum not a cult for william chueng.


green cloud

Hello Green Cloud,

I would like for you to point to ONE example of where any type of attacks have "set the record straight"? More often it simply leads to more bad blood and further bickering. Besides, no one here has a monopoly on the truth and ones perception if what defines what one will accept.

However, I can point to how not allowing personal attacks has allowed people from various lineages to foster friendships and help to advance the art. While contraversy is sometimes enjoyable, it rarely leads to anything positive. However, by heading off much of the "controversial" content this form, hopefully, will not degrade into some of the others on the net. Besides what is the purpose f such contraversy?

The only thing you said which was correct in your last sentence is that this is not a cult for William Cheung. The previous sentence really does not serve anyone, including yourself. I would again ask you to consider your motiviation. Will further posting of personal matters help you in your Wng Chun in any way?

[CFT]

Will further posting of personal matters help you in your Wing Chun in any way?Green Cloud is a Lama Pai/Choy Lee Fut man anyway so all of this won't help his Wing Chun in the slightest :)

[sihing]

Green Cloud is a Lama Pai/Choy Lee Fut man anyway so all of this won't help his Wing Chun in the slightest :)

Then it makes you wonder why a Lama Pai/Choy Lee Fut man is here on the Wing Chun forum. Maybe his art is INCOMPLETE and he is looking for the answers here...

James

Sorry but I saw the opening...lol.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Then it makes you wonder why a Lama Pai/Choy Lee Fut man is here on the Wing Chun forum. Maybe his art is INCOMPLETE and he is looking for the answers here...

James

Sorry but I saw the opening...lol.

Wow, if you think that no amount of discussion in the world could set you straight...

[sihing]

Wow, if you think that no amount of discussion in the world could set you straight...

It was just a joke :D . As Green Cloud did mention in a previous post that WC was incomplete..

Just tryin to loosen this place up a bit...

[GreenCloudCLF]

It was just a joke :D . As Green Cloud did mention in a previous post that WC was incomplete..

Just tryin to loosen this place up a bit...

I like my forums like I like my women....NOT LOOSE....I'm just saying.:D :eek:

[anerlich]

I like my forums like I like my women....NOT LOOSE....I'm just saying.

So if you don't like this one, go away.

No one's really trying to shut you down ... perhaps just trying ot save you from making a fool of yourself.

A difficult job indeed.

[GreenCloudCLF]

So if you don't like this one, go away.

No one's really trying to shut you down ... perhaps just trying ot save you from making a fool of yourself.

A difficult job indeed.

I make one joke and you jump in defending your style. I don;t know if I should be impressed in your love for the style or in awe of your stupidity for taking anything I say seriously. But I'm leaning toward the latter.

[Green Cloud]

I was actualy agreeing with sihing 73 and fiamacho on some of there coments and trying to stay neutral to some point. I didn't know that shing73 was a moderator so it's not like I was kissing up to the man.

My intentions are not to smere anyone and I'm friends with a few guys here. I was reffering to some of the coments in the why did Chris serras say that thread. That is what might have caused the confusion.

Not to rehash that thread but I was just trying to set the record strait on a few untruths that were being spread. Nowing that this person knows most of the guys on the forum and was a good friend of mine it was the only way to set the record strait. Than if you read the thread it was dropped. It beats a chalenge to the death like good old sihing sugested;)


I also apreciate that sehing has a good sense of humor.

[fiamacho]

So if you don't like this one, go away.

No one's really trying to shut you down ... perhaps just trying ot save you from making a fool of yourself.

A difficult job indeed.

Greencloud is joking, there is no need for comments like that ... too much caffeine mate.

[anerlich]

in awe of your stupidity for taking anything I say seriously

How could I possibly take anything you say seriously? That would indeed be awesomely stupid.

And when did I ever defend my style? I don't need to.

Did you ever diss my style? It's hard to tell amongst that degenerate swill of typo's, spelling errors, pathetic attempts at humour and cold blooded murder of the English language that passes for your posting style.


Greencloud is joking, there is no need for comments like that ... too much caffeine mate.

LOL at the self-appointed nemesis of latte drinkers everywhere telling ME to tone it down ... and getting in Sihing73's face for "moderating" him, then trying to do exactly the same to me as he got pi$$ed at sihing73 supposedly doing to him.

You guys want to look for pomposity and inability to take a joke? Stand in front of a mirror.

Oh, yeah, I'm joking. (my fingers are crossed)

Hey, has the seminar been on yet? How did it go? Did Chris turn up?

[fiamacho]

LOL at the self-appointed nemesis of latte drinkers everywhere telling ME to tone it down ... and getting in Sihing73's face for "moderating" him, then trying to do exactly the same to me as he got pi$$ed at sihing73 supposedly doing to him.

You guys want to look for pomposity and inability to take a joke? Stand in front of a mirror.

Oh, yeah, I'm joking. (my fingers are crossed)

Hey, has the seminar been on yet? How did it go? Did Chris turn up?

Moderating YOU !!! You are such a clown, comprehension is something you totally lack if you can't see the humour then you are obviously "not a funny guy" (sarcasm intended if you need help understanding).

You took a tongue in cheek comment and obviously due to your need to partake in the caffeinated beverage you have created a mountain out of a mole hill.

Good call A. Nerlich

[anerlich]

You are such a clown ... you are obviously "not a funny guy"

Now I'm confused. Am I funny or not?

Thanks for pointing out about the sarcasm. I generally assume it is there judging from your earlier posts.

Good luck with the seminar, guys - maybe you could have a door prize with a latte voucher for the winner.

[Green Cloud]

Sorry if I have insulted anyone I've been told that my humor is rather dry and sometimes people take it the wrong way.

[Green Cloud]

anerlich I never got ****ed at sehing73 I'm not sure what youre talking about. As far as you go you seem to be ****ed at me.

[anerlich]

Sorry if I have insulted anyone I've been told that my humor is rather dry and sometimes people take it the wrong way.

Mudslinging is a constant on this forum. Treat it as the transitory and largely unserious thing that it is.

Now I'm off to drink a six pack of Red Bull.

[anerlich]

anerlich I never got ****ed at sehing73 I'm not sure what youre talking about. As far as you go you seem to be ****ed at me.


Those comments were directed towards the latte drinker's arch-enemy, fiamacho, who made his own mountain out of that particular molehill. I did give him a fair bit of raw material to build it with, I suppose.

*You* don't have everything *I* say so seriously either. I know nothing about you other than that you're really pi$$ed at Chris Serras, probably justifiably. I'm in no position to say anything accurate about you, so why worry about it?

[Green Cloud]

No offense taken, I have no probleb with anyone venting it's good therapy.

[fiamacho]

Those comments were directed towards the latte drinker's arch-enemy, fiamacho, who made his own mountain out of that particular molehill. I did give him a fair bit of raw material to build it with, I suppose.


You are a rather sensitive soul aren't you? The *box* of *tissues* and a lifetime supply of Dr Phill and Oprah reruns is in the mail. ...

I hope I have not offended you on this one ... *yet again sarcasm intended due to your inablity to understand Sifu A. Latte*

N.B Just to explain things to you Sify A. Latte is still referring to YOU *sarcasm still intended due to your lack of comprehension and zero sense of humour*

[GreenCloudCLF]

How could I possibly take anything you say seriously? That would indeed be awesomely stupid.

And when did I ever defend my style? I don't need to.

Did you ever diss my style? It's hard to tell amongst that degenerate swill of typo's, spelling errors, pathetic attempts at humour and cold blooded murder of the English language that passes for your posting style.



LOL at the self-appointed nemesis of latte drinkers everywhere telling ME to tone it down ... and getting in Sihing73's face for "moderating" him, then trying to do exactly the same to me as he got pi$$ed at sihing73 supposedly doing to him.

You guys want to look for pomposity and inability to take a joke? Stand in front of a mirror.

Oh, yeah, I'm joking. (my fingers are crossed)

Hey, has the seminar been on yet? How did it go? Did Chris turn up?


Are you so dense you don't realize there are 2 Green Clouds on this thread? Before you continue to put your foot in your mouth, distinguish between the two and direct comments appropriately...moron.

[Green Cloud]

Hey what's up Jason, I think I need some therapy when are you ready for me??:)

[anerlich]

Are you so dense you don't realize there are 2 Green Clouds on this thread? Before you continue to put your foot in your mouth, distinguish between the two and direct comments appropriately...moron.

Since I included quotes in my posts, I think it's pretty clear to those of average intelligence or above to whom I'm responding.

So, who's the moron now?

[anerlich]

N.B Just to explain things to you Sify A. Latte is still referring to YOU *sarcasm still intended due to your lack of comprehension and zero sense of humour*

M'kay thanks for the edification.

Your insult has totally gutted and demoralised me *yawn*

Now go take a cold shower or something and calm down.

Jeez, so many short fuses on here.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Hey what's up Jason, I think I need some therapy when are you ready for me??:)

Whenever you want Sifu, whenever you want:)

[GreenCloudCLF]

Since I included quotes in my posts, I think it's pretty clear to those of average intelligence or above to whom I'm responding.

So, who's the moron now?

Well you use my quote then say this:


It's hard to tell amongst that degenerate swill of typo's, spelling errors, pathetic attempts at humour and cold blooded murder of the English language that passes for your posting style.


And if you could be so kind as to show me where these errors are, I would be much appreciated.

So in answer to your question of who the moron is, it is still you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wow....what a good read this thread has become !!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Can't wait for the sequel. :p :o :eek:

[Green Cloud]

Anallover you got to admit that's funny, You got to admit his name is tricky you have to look at it twice. At first glance I spelled his name wrong to and I wasn't even try to be funny.

Speaking of type OS, in the kf forum I mentioned that I used to BOUNCE IN BRAS:(