Magical Kung-Fu Super Powers?

[GreenCloudCLF]

Throughout a lot of the threads I have read on this forum in the past year it is obvious that there are two kinds of people on this forum. One group believes in the magical "chi-blast" powers of Kung-Fu (even thought they deny it and make fun of it). The other group believes firmly in the fighting aspect of Kung-Fu and takes a no BS stance on the "special chi powers" that some claim to know, or at least believes exists.

Brian Kennedy's book (which has been recommended by at least 2 people on this forum) takes the latter stance. And it spends the first 50 pages or so talking about the history of Kung-Fu having been contaminated by mystical stories of midget albino immortals creating Tai Chi.

Somewhere after page 100 (before page 115) Kennedy is interviewing the owner of Lion books (reprinters of old Chinese training manuals based in Taiwan) and he takes the same view as Kennedy, for the most part. But he does explain that an instructor friend of his sought out another instructor (White Crane) and watched this WC guy as he jumped 2 stories in the air. This is also the second time I have heard a 3rd hand account of this same ability (jumping 2 stories in the air).

So my question to you all is this, (and I am intersted in hearing from the chi-blasters and non-chi blasters alike) for those of you who do NOT believe in these abilities, where is the cut off. Can you believe a man jumping 2 stores in the air, but 3 stories is ridiculous? And those of you who DO believe in superhuman abilities, where is your cut-off? Can you believe a man can jump 5 stories, or levitate several inches off the ground, but controlled human flight is impossible?

[David Jamieson]

no one can jump higher than the best nba-er as far as I know lol.

highest jumping kick record goes to an inuit guy at something like a 13ft kick.

That's more than one story, so there in is the limits of my belief on the matter of jumping, levitating or controlled unassissited human flight. Simply put, there is no one who has shown this ability and those who have have used tricks or devices to achieve their illusion.

Chi is a seperate matter and despite peoples wild and various claims and assumptions I still believe there is a unifying life force that courses through all living things. THis is chi. It's use is enhanced through cultivation and practice, but the manipulation of it is at best difficult and pretty much non showable outside of 'hey that guy looks young for 60 years old' or how come that 80 year od man still does tai chi, doesn't need glasses or a cane and my own grandpa who doesn't exrecise and cultivate his chi can't walk without assisstance, craps in a bag on his side and has glasses so thick I'm surprised he sees ata ll.

This is the most highly contrasting and convincing evidence of the value of cultivating ones own sourec of chi

[Emeraldphoenix]

Maybe way back in the day when these old masters trained their whole lives and long hard core hours of training on a daily basis. They may have been able to do some physical feats that would have been percieved as superhuman.

Modern day practitioners no way. Modern society does not allow that kind of time.

As for Chi, I am firm believer. I am a Reiki master. So i have felt and seen the effects of chi. But in a healing capacity only. No exploding heart punches from 10 feet away:eek:

Maybe in the old days the masters were able to affect the chi flow in there opponents to be fatal or disabilitating, but not like we see in the movies, that's for sure.

I hope that people can be completely honest in their responses to this thread, cuz i am just as curious as you.

[TenTigers]

most legends are loosely based on fact. The world record high jump is something like 11 ft, and the world record running long jump is around 30 something feet.
We have all seen Jacky Chan run up the corners of the buildings, and we have seen Tony Jaa do that amazing jump kick which must have been higher than a basketball net. If you haven't then you need to check it out. Also check out the Le Parkour sites.
So one person witneses this, tells another, who tells another...you get the idea.
Has anyone ever seen the movie, "Sgt. York", with Gary Cooper? He single handedly captures a group of German soldiers, probably about 10, and one guy tells another, and the story goes from ten, to 15, to an entire battalion, to the Kaiser.
Does Ch'i exist? Well, I'm what I call a hopeful skeptic. I truly want to believe, but you'd better be able to show me. So far all the so-called demos, bending rods, swords, spears-those I used to do at partied in my teens. These are feats of skill, not ch'i. I Anyone who doubts this, I will show you how in under ten seconds, and you can become a ch'i master.I still don't know how to make a bowl stick to my stomach, but I know it's a skill, not Ch'i. The guy on TV who made the paper burn in his hands...I guess you eould have to ask Penn and Teller. James Randi still hasn't given out a dime yet.
Do I feel ch'i? Yes, I believe I do. I have felt and witnessed many things, most I still don't know what to make of it. I definately believe in acupuncture as well.
I would love to believe in levitation and no-touch ch'i ballstrikes, but I have not yet felt them, and those old men who do demos won't playwith me either.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Whether or not chi exists obviously will always be hard to either prove or disprove, but look at it from a standpoint of physics vs. mysticism. Someone who practices kung fu for years will develop more powerful strikes, use an opponent's energy against them, and be in more control of their bodies allowing them to do amazing things to the non-practioner. To me it is a matter of training and body mechanics. When the body does something over and over again, it becomes reactionary and the energy dispersed is total body energy rather than one limb or part of the body. When a beginner throws a punch, they usually use only arm, shoulder, or upper body strenth, rather than using legs and hips and making it an entire body strike. As the practioner gets better, he/she utilizes more of their body making the strike more powerful. Is this chi development? If you want to believe that, I think it is more body mechanics through repetition. People always want to believe in magical mumbo jumbo, but there is nothing magical about martial arts, it is a study of the body and mind coming together to produce results.

[GreenCloudCLF]

What about people who talk about a person's needle and cotton skill being so good, that when they touch you, you feel an intense sensation of cold?

[TenTigers]

show me.

like I said, I am hopeful, but I need to feel it for myself. I have seen and felt enough things that Iam not a disbeliever, I simply want to experience it for myself.

[GreenCloudCLF]

show me.

like I said, I am hopeful, but I need to feel it for myself. I have seen and felt enough things that Iam not a disbeliever, I simply want to experience it for myself.

I've heard 2nd hand about a guy from San Fransisco who can (white crane guy I think) but I can't recall his name...

The jumping things were both 3rd hand accounts, so I'm getting closer to finding one...

[lkfmdc]

Give me the right Mexican food and I'll produce for you a deadly Chi Blast ;)

I've felt first hand the cold touch from the needle in cotton, but stnading still while a guy holds your wrist and using it to stop a person trying to smack you in the head are two different things....

[TenTigers]

There was a guy who was advertizing on Howard Stern, who by touching certain acupuncture points, claimed to be able to give women orgasms. Now THAT would be a skill worth developing. Dillman is wasting his life away, doing his point touch knockouts. I'd be hittin the clubs!

[Emeraldphoenix]

That one i can do. Just bring all your female freinds and i will gladly demonstrate.:D .

But on the serious note it can be done.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I've never met any jumpers, but I know the old skills are still out there, some of which can be learned later in life than I expected.

As far as second hand accounts go (that'd be 3rd hand for the forum, unfortunately,) my cousin saw his friend's vietnamese father jump up onto a second story fire escape from ground level. When he asked him how he did that, the guy just said "practice."

I myself have seen firsthand a man with a Peng Jing so developed that he can, without perceptibly moving, launch people who are pushing against him into the air. His name is Eric Tuttle. He's an internal guy in his sixties who said he started training the Peng Jing in his forties after seeing another old master do it. I shook his hand, and at first I thought it was really soft and almost wet, but when I tried to actually "shake" his hand, I found that I couldn't. It was the best example of "Iron wrapped in Cotton" I've ever seen.

He is also one of two people I know to be able to make their hair stand on end on command.

Again, Eric's secret to his skills - "practice."

CSP

[GreenCloudCLF]

I was thinking about this. To jump to the 2nd story of a building, all I have to do is jump 1 floor. Cause I only need to land on the "ceiling" of the first floor. Some buildings have low roofs (10 feet or so), and I would surmise there are buildings of this low height in China. So when we talk about someone being ablt to jump "2 stories" it might only actually be 1 story, which in turn may be low and jump about 10 feet. While this is still a high jump, it is not "2 stories".

Sifu Ross, while I agree you standing there and being struck in a fight with NiC is 2 different things, what can you say about NiC. Would you surmise there is some application, or just a "parlor trick" showing off certain skills development? Like bending a spear in the throat, while it can be done, no one does it mid-combat in an attempt to deflect the spear?

[Crushing Fist]

I could buy into someone jumping ten feet straight up... 25 feet not so much...

The only example in my own experience demonstrating "chi" outside of just feeling it is putting out the candle as a demonstration of "fa jing"

One of my favorite achievements was when I could first put out the candle with a closed fist... its no "chi blast" but it made me grin... I think becuase I saw it in some random kung fu movie as the last step in training before the fighter was ready to take on his greatest enemy... some random gordon liu flick.

[Wong Ying Home]

Grandmaster Henry Leung of Fut Sao Wing Chun in New York had some scary skills including the ability to jump very high. Speak to his disciple SiFu James Cama and see what he has to say first hand accounst of his sifu's skill

[SimonM]

Let's just say that as far as ultra high white crane jumps and light-stepping sort of stuff goes: I'll believe it when I see it and not a second earlier.

[kwaichang]

In 1972 I witnessed a 5ft 5 in man 17 years old with one step jump 6.5 ft over a band stand that height clearing it with his tucked lower leg. I witnessed the same person 1.5 years later do a "Classical Flying" side kick with 5 steps to the height of 9.8 ft. There are stories of people utilizing "super human strength to lift tractors off loved ones. The people some women weigh 150 # and lift 1500 to 2000 pounds. why then cant a person with the right training do more of the same ? Quote from a movie Luke : I cant believe it. Yoda : That is why you fail. Just believe, train and it will be so. With pure faith one can accomplish anything. Our worst enemy is our own self doubt. KC Perhaps the masters of old had no doubt.

[SimonM]

In 1972 I witnessed a 5ft 5 in man 17 years old with one step jump 6.5 ft over a band stand that height clearing it with his tucked lower leg.


6.5 feet is a lot less than two stories.



I witnessed the same person 1.5 years later do a "Classical Flying" side kick with 5 steps to the height of 9.8 ft.


Although that would be impressive... if it in fact occured... that is still well short of two stories.



There are stories of people utilizing "super human strength to lift tractors off loved ones. The people some women weigh 150 # and lift 1500 to 2000 pounds. why then cant a person with the right training do more of the same ?

Give me a URL to proof of these stories. There are stories of men with a hook for a hand gutting teenagers on lovers lookout. Doesn't make them true.



Quote from a movie Luke : I cant believe it. Yoda : That is why you fail. Just believe, train and it will be so. With pure faith one can accomplish anything. Our worst enemy is our own self doubt. KC Perhaps the masters of old had no doubt.

First of all you just quoted Star Wars in a serious martial arts discussion. Not too good for the credibility of your argument. Second in the scene in question Yoda was busy levitating an X-Wing Fighter at the time. If I saw someone levitating a large aircraft and it was clear that no pre-arranged trickery were used I'd believe it. To date nobody has ever provided such a proof.

I don't doubt my ability to hit hard, to avoid injuring my hands and wrists when striking a hard target (like a head), to resist pain from blunt impact strikes or to place a shot well. I don't doubt my ability to use wrestling techniques to control an opponent and put them into a vulnerable position. Why? Because these are what we call "verifiable". Magical Qi powers have (to date) been unverifiable and as such I doubt them.

[kwaichang]

No argument I saw it, period. research incredible feats of strength on the web you will find all you need, You are what is known as a pecimist(? spelling). Anyway the old argument is just cause you havent seen it does not mean it dont exist. You cant "prove " everything. But it can still exist. Also the movie has nothing to do with the validity of the ststement. Maybe I should have said "If you build they will come" KC:mad: :rolleyes: :eek:

[SimonM]

No argument I saw it, period. research incredible feats of strength on the web you will find all you need, You are what is known as a pecimist(? spelling). Anyway the old argument is just cause you havent seen it does not mean it dont exist. You cant "prove " everything. But it can still exist. Also the movie has nothing to do with the validity of the ststement. Maybe I should have said "If you build they will come" KC:mad: :rolleyes: :eek:

Must... resist... urge... do... dissect... post... based... on... grammar... and... spelling...

Actually Kwaichang the attitude I am espousing is not one of pessimism but rather one of scepticism.

There is a saying I heard once: it's one thing to have an open mind. It's another to have a mind so open your brain rolls out. I have simply said that I trust what my senses tell me. My senses do not tell me that martial artists regularly bypass the stairs by way of jumping. Nor do people have the ability to do no-touch KOs. Nor can people use their magical poking powers to defeat a physically superior opponent. As for what you have "seen" you are just a string of text on a wire. You could be a legitimate martial artist or you could be a 12 year old DBZ fan sitting in his mom's basement bsing to sound cool. Either way I don't know.

Now since you have made certain claims the burden of proof falls upon you to prove that you are not full of it. Pony up some URLs from valid sources. Give us some video of these super-extreme jumps. Give us our Yoda-esque levitation demonstration!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are two sides to this story, for me.. Hard science on one side and myth on the other.. Science (physics) indicates no restriction on the "possibility" of such magical feats as described in previous accounts, i simply have very little evidence of such.. Myth, on the other hand, like someone else said, appears to be greatly embellished accounts of someone's well-disciplined feats..

From my own experience, Qi is a multi-faced phenomenon.. it is easy enough to accept the notion that there is a unifying and all-pervasive force that permeates all things, that is the basic building block of existence as we know it.. science calls it "energy".. that everything is energy, energy that vibrates at frequencies manifesting everything form light to solid rock.. energy vibrates at frequencies that produces matter and then animates it (life).. it maintains patterns (identities) and can be controlled by consciousness.. So, ultimately, we have the ability to control energy.. but, very little evidence that anyone can consistently achieve such control as necessary to effect such feats as described here..

I have, in the past, recounted several experiences that assure me that there is the potential for a human to discipline themselves to acheive amazing feats.. i will share one more.. My mentor will take a standard 16 oz. styrofoam 7-11 coffee cup and turn it upside down, place it on the ground and, stand on it with one foot.. and, not crush it (he weighs +/- 125-130 lbs.).. personally, i have destroyed hundreds of these cups trying to do the same (yes, i drink my share of 7-11 coffee..).. when i ask him how he does this he says, "i just make myself light".... subsequent discussions with other well-disciplined QiGong people, have indicated that he was able to tune his "frequency" with the cup's.. which is why i once heard him say, "i can't crush myself".. anyway, take it for what it's worth..

I think that the ancestors recognized the amazing feats of well-disciplined people and not being able to understand how they were done they assigned a label and description that satisfied their limited intellect relative to empirical science..

Qi, from my own perspective, is the combined effect of many systems and aspects of our physical and energetic being.. it is the "effect" that appears mystical, not the mechanics or discipline.. the mystic quality is only assigned by those that lack the discipline or conceptual ability to acheive that level of accomplishment.. something is "mystical" only by comparison to someone's range of experiences.. while some people have great depth of experiences in this type of experience, others don't and, so.. they find themselves at odds..

Lack of evidence is not evidence of non-existence.. it is a limitation on our current ability to measure or quantify a particular theory.. it simply means the theory stands as theory until conclusive evidence can prove or disprove it.. Cutting-edge particle physics leads me to keep open the possibility that we have the potential to manage energy in a manner consistent with some "mystical" claims.. i'm just not certain how many generations it will take to master such elusive disciplines.. But, we will create our own realities through our individual belief systems.. our individual realities will interact with those of others and a "quasi" reality will be agreed upon by the majority opinion.. Here is the fun, negotiating agreed upon realities that preserve our individual identities while maintaining a peaceful and prosperous society.. good luck!!

Be well..

[GreenCloudCLF]

Maybe way back in the day when these old masters trained their whole lives and long hard core hours of training on a daily basis. They may have been able to do some physical feats that would have been percieved as superhuman.

Modern day practitioners no way. Modern society does not allow that kind of time.



I think this is an interesting point of view. This is actually close to the way I thought of/think of these types of abilities. Is it possible that the same way styles became extinct (through the "protection" of the "secrets" from the unworthy) certain skills, such as 25 foot jumps and 5-point exploding heart techniques (what was that one in Fist of the White Lotus---the 100 pace palm or something) became extinct as well?

Professional athletes, IMO, have a sort of natural ability. Then, once they begin specialized training regiments, they become great. Michael Jordan was a natural Basketballer, but through training and practice he became unbelievable.

Perhaps, due to the various skills available to a martial artist, people with natural abilities lose their way. As an example, say I am a natural jumper, and with just some training I can get a 25 foot vertical. But say I prefer to train Iron Palm. My iron palm skills will remain mediocre, when compared to people with natural abilities in this area, and my vertical jump will remain average, because I am not developing it.

So perhaps in today's hectic world these skills are lost.

Comments?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

No argument I saw it, period. research incredible feats of strength on the web you will find all you need, You are what is known as a pecimist(? spelling). Anyway the old argument is just cause you havent seen it does not mean it dont exist. You cant "prove " everything. But it can still exist. Also the movie has nothing to do with the validity of the ststement. Maybe I should have said "If you build they will come" KC:mad: :rolleyes: :eek:


Yes, we all know everything on the internet is true??? If you believe in chi believe the fact that the human body is a phenomenal machine and through years of conditioning and repetitious hard work amazing things can occur. Jumping high can be attributed to a combination of increased total body physical strentgh and athletisism, but unlikey to chi, or as kwaichang believes, the jedi mind trick. I'm just busting your chops KC, but as someone said earlier, no one is going to take you serious on a serious discussion when you start quoting Yoda!

[David Jamieson]

a more succint version of my post:

On jumping - show me don't tell me

On Chi - It's self evident, if it wasn't none of us would be reading this because our very existence is tied to it. without chi, there is no life.

[Ford Prefect]

World Record high jump is a shade over 8 feet. This is by an athlete in his prime, who is a naturally high jumper, and who has trained his jumping ability for much of his life.

It sounds like plenty of people here are full of it.

[GreenCloudCLF]

World Record high jump is a shade over 8 feet. This is by an athlete in his prime, who is a naturally high jumper, and who has trained his jumping ability for much of his life.

It sounds like plenty of people here are full of it.

There seems to be some disagreement on the high jump world record...acording to wikipedia its:


2.45 m Javier Sotomayor CUB 27 July, 1993 Salamanca

and according to Yahoo!:


2.45000 Meters = 8.03806 Feet

Women's high jump record is 2.09 m (6.85696 Feet)

Anyone have other sources telling of a higher jumping record?

And would 8 feet be high enough to jump onto the 2nd floor of a Chinese building (since their ceilings are lower than in the US.)?

[GreenCloudCLF]

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/search.asp Also has high jump record at 2.45m

[Ford Prefect]

That is 8 feet by a highly trained, naturally gifted jumping athlete using a technique that would not be condusive to jumping onto a roof 8' up. Let's not mention that this is the WORLD RECORD. Last Olympics, the gold medalist jumped a mere 7' 8.9".

And there is no disagreement. Go to athens2004.com (official olympic site), the iaaf's website, etc and they all have it listed as 2.45m. There was a very, very long time when people wondered if an 8' high jump would ever be accomplished. It's stretching current human abilities quite a bit.

[GreenCloudCLF]

And there is no disagreement. Go to athens2004.com (official olympic site), the iaaf's website, etc and they all have it listed as 2.45m. There was a very, very long time when people wondered if an 8' high jump would ever be accomplished. It's stretching current human abilities quite a bit.

But there WAS disagreement:


I witnessed the same person 1.5 years later do a "Classical Flying" side kick with 5 steps to the height of 9.8 ft.


highest jumping kick record goes to an inuit guy at something like a 13ft kick.



The world record high jump is something like 11 ft, and the world record running long jump is around 30 something feet.


So there was disagreement. And your response was the same as theirs was, you stated a "fact" with no verification. I went and nabbed 2 sources agreeing with you, and then you provided a source for your information. You can see how people would be disinclined to agree with you because you say so. The fact that you are right, does not mean there was not, and still may be, a disagreement.

So now comes the possibility that there are MA guys who can jump higher than the Olympic competitors. Is it possible they can, and it is just not recorded by the IOCC? I would say possible, but highly IMPROBABLE. Can there be people who can jump, but don't compete in track and field? I would say yes, the same way there are MAist who can fight, but don't compete. Is it possible that these people can jump higher than an Olympian? Again: I would say possible, but highly IMPROBABLE.

[Ford Prefect]

Listen, according to quantum mechanics it is possible that if I walk into a wall enough times that eventually I'll pass right through it once. I'd say that the odds of some random kung fu master jumping higher than a naturally gifted jumper, at the peak of his training, in the prime of his athletic life is probably even LESS likely.

As for an inuit high kick, I checked. The record in 8'8". For a 6' tall person with good flexability to do this, he'd have to jump about 32" or so, which is a very respectable vertical leap, but nothing compared to most professional athletes. It would be completely blown away by the worst olympic high jumpers as well. You should see the inuit games. I think there was a documentary on the National Geographic channel about it not very long ago.

When I talk of world records, I speak from verifiable accounts. All else is pointless as anybody can say anything.

[GreenCloudCLF]

FP,

Funny you talk about walking through a wall...I just did it...Actually my firend and I were just talking about that..but my point is it would be possible for a KF master (at the height of his training) to get some major air.

I am not disputing the IOCC records, in fact I agree with you and needing to see it, which is why I started this thread to begin with. I was just pointing out that beofre you posted the Athens website, all you did was what everyone was doing, stating a height and claiming it was the highest, without some sort of verification.

[Ford Prefect]

Sure. Get some major air... Yes. I'll buy that. Jump higher than an olympic high jumper. No. These guys push the limits of human ability, which is why it was wondered if 8' would ever be broken. These guys are genetically gifted jumpers who could jump higher than all of us without a single day of training. They then trained jumping technique for years and years to eek out as much height as possible out of any leap. They've undergone extensive physical training aimed specifically towards increasing their leaping ability. Still, he is the only guy to jump 8 feet...

I didn't post a source because everybody with knowledge about track and field knows 8' is a sacred high jump mark. It's also easily verifiable. I can say the world is round or Saudi Arabia is prodiminatly muslim without needing to post sources. I figured this was on the same page.

[TenTigers]

yes, I believe I meant 6 feet-which is the height of my ceiling(not sure how 11 popped nto my brain-must've been that Pink Floyd concert in the 70's) but it was not so much a jump as it was the Fosbury Flop variety, which isn't the same as jumping onto a roof.
On the other hand, i can jump over eight feet....down.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

No numbers here, but impressive takeoffs and landings nonetheless, with some cool transitions.

http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/sports/Martial_Arts_Hops_2/

CSP

[Emeraldphoenix]

Hey now, What the hell is a green firie resurection birdie:eek:

[Emeraldphoenix]

If you studied Iron finger for 30 years every day for 8 hours, I have no doubt you could stick your finger straight through my chest and kill me. I wish we could all go back in time and observe what kung fu skills were like.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Hey now, What the hell is a green firie resurection birdie:eek:


EP, no offense meant

[GreenCloudCLF]

I didn't post a source because everybody with knowledge about track and field knows 8' is a sacred high jump mark. It's also easily verifiable. I can say the world is round or Saudi Arabia is prodiminatly muslim without needing to post sources. I figured this was on the same page.

But this is a KF forum, not everyone has T&F knowledge. Also if you are debating points with someone, very few will do legwork to prove themselves wrong...ya know...

[Emeraldphoenix]

None taken, that cracked me up:D

[GreenCloudCLF]

If you studied Iron finger for 30 years every day for 8 hours, I have no doubt you could stick your finger straight through my chest and kill me. I wish we could all go back in time and observe what kung fu skills were like.

An hour a day for 30 days can drop your finger through a heavy bag...please reference the extremely long CTS thread for that info.

[SimonM]

And would 8 feet be high enough to jump onto the 2nd floor of a Chinese building (since their ceilings are lower than in the US.)?

Probably not.

[wutymes]

heres my stories

i've witnessed a hung gar teacher fall off a 25 foot stack of chairs and kick them out of the way and landed softly.

I've been hit by the short explosive power and the long explosive power. Just by the feeling I had, I could tell you it's real. Yeah maybe its hard to measure bt its just a different science of physical mechanics. It's nothing mystical, but it sure is when you watch a Gordon Liu movie..

[SimonM]

Talk is cheap.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Consider how many pictures there are in a video.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There is much more to the "super-power" mythology than high-jumps, high-jumps are pretty well documented.. There is a great story about GM Chan Pui.. those that were there still talk reverently about a challenge issued to Chan Pui at his Boston school years ago.. traditionally, the challenger must prove themselves worthy by completing three tests as chosen by the one being challenged.. first, there was a half hour of low stance, with a staff resting on the thighs.. so far so good for the challenger.. then, there was 250 "side to sides", a shifting from side to side in a "low single-whip" posture (butt about 4 inches off the ground).. stressed but willing to continue, the challenger waited for the third task.. Chan Pui said, "follow me".. he went to the third story and walked out of an open window, landing unharmed on the sidewalk below.. the challenger left. This is a story that has witnesses and persists as legend in the Wah Lum system, and.. since i know Chan Pui personally, i have no doubt of its validity, either as an actuallity or a very real capability.. aside from that, the witnesses are of excellent character and not prone to embellishment.

While i don't put much stock in things i can't verify or that have no back-up evidence.. i also keep an open mind and regard current advances in particle/string physics as evidence of great potential in the perceived mystical realm.. things are only mystical by comparison to someones history of experiences.. isolated tribes in deep jungle communities once worshiped a person with a butane lighter, they considered it big magic... Sure, i believe that some ancient masters may have stumbled onto a link to enlightenment, that they may have had sufficient discipline/faith to manifest "big magic".. science doesn't rule this out.. but, of more interest to me is the training necessary to get there, even to get "small magic".. rather than shred accounts of feats we don't believe or understand, i think we should study them.. look for consistencies, test them, and.. just maybe, move a step closer to some magic of our own..

Be well..

[GreenCloudCLF]

I would like to say that Tai Chi Bob and i do share an opinion on this. Just because western science does cannot prove or disprove something, does not mean it does not exist.

If I was suffering from migranes and western medicine could find no cure, then went to an accupunturist and was healed I would be hard-pressed (as would western medicine) to understand why. But this doesn't make the treatment less valid. I think our science has come a long way, and explains much; but not everything.

Perhaps these increible feats we talk about are not supernatural, but follow laws of nature we do not yet understand.

[SimonM]

Ah but I am not saying: subject these things to the rigours of the "western" scientific method. I'm saying simply: show me, don't tell me.

[kwaichang]

In 1972 there was no VHS or no Beta either I think. I will give you his name it was Lee Gann. I dont have to prove it I saw it that is enough for me. I dont really care if I quote Yoda either. I didnt see Christ walk on water but I believe it. So you guys spend time debating something you cant prove or disprove. Although the mark is 8 feet this man cleared 6.5 easily with one step then take off and the other with 5 or 6 steps I am not thirteen and trained longer than most of you have been alive. I have seen alot of strange but true things as I am sure many of you have. KC

[GreenCloudCLF]

Ah but I am not saying: subject these things to the rigours of the "western" scientific method. I'm saying simply: show me, don't tell me.

Simon, my comments were general opinions. And BTW I agree with you I want to see it.

[Crushing Fist]

Last night they had a special about "mystical superhuman powers" and I thought of this thread.

There was a martial arts guy "George Dillman" doing his famous "no touch chi knock-outs"

Less than impressive

It worked amazingly well on his students but when a skeptic volunteered to be knocked out by one of his top students/partner nothing happened

imagine that

then when questioned about it Dillman (seriously) said "he was a total non-believer"

a non-believer! :rolleyes:

then, just to make it worse, he said, "well if he had his tongue in the wrong place it could have nullified it"

also, "if you move your big toes up and down I won't be able to knock you out"

is this guy for real? is he a complete fraud or sadly deluded?

supposedly he taught bruce lee at one point

I would say he's just a harmless clown but he also demonstrated pressure point knockouts on people and commented that he had accidentally flat-lined at least one.

They also showed "yogic flyers"

guys sitting in lotus bouncing on mattresses

The muslim sufis were creepy. One guy was walking around with 2 daggers stuck in his skull. :eek:


Anyone know anthing about this Dillman?

[GreenCloudCLF]

Dillman and his protege travel the country offering up seminars to people deluded, or hopeful, enough to host them. Check in some KF mags and you will see Dillman seminars listed.

i have heard of that special before and the wiggling toe excuse...:mad:

[GreenCloudCLF]

Are you saying science can't prove why the sky is blue? Or are you saying people that use science as an excuse dopn't know why???:confused:

[David Jamieson]

now before we go anyfurther...

are we talking about falling? or jumping?

because here's the facts:

The CIA says that the height that will kill you with greater than 80% probabilty is 75 feet. That's about a 10 story building. So a person with relatively average knowledge and good skill can indeed fall from a two or three story building and not do any damage to themselves.

If you have this knowledge, it is not that impressive a feat. I myself have jumped to the ground from more than two stories (high school roof) did not sustain any injury whatsoever and just rolled out of the fall a la tumble.

But to jump up 2 stories? I gotta say, there is no one that can do that, it is an impossibility forthe human form to do this.

There has even been tales of people who are skydiving from more than 1000 feet, hit terminal velocity, chute didn't open, WHAM!!!! and they live! maybe a broken bone, but they live!

so apply a bit of kungfu to your ability to fall from distance and I'm sure quite a few of you wwould be amazed at the heights you can move from. This isn't so much a question of secret power as it is the knowledge of how to tumble and breakfall and mostly, do you got the guts to try.

guts. that is a big key in any martial arts.

you gotta have the guts.

[Fu-Pow]

I think there is potential in the human body that hasn't been tapped into. Does it require belief in something mystical? I don't think so. For example, there is this issue of biotensegrity which IMO most of the so-called internal arts are based around. It is the concept that the forces in your body can be non-localized across the entire structure and also that the elasto-hydraulic properties of the body can store and release force. The internal arts tapped into these potentials through careful practice and observation and used the paradigm available to them for explaining how they work. Same with acupucture which IMO is tapping into the subtle electrical currents in the body. Chi can me different things depending on the paradigm that you are operating from. I think we can still talk about Chi as a useful metaphor even though we are operating from a empirical-analytical paradigm. Its just our explanation of "how" things work is going to be different than the Chinese explanation from 2000 years ago.

[Crushing Fist]

I have often wondered if (and read some theories suggesting) "chi" is our bioelectricity.

Since we are all basically walking talking wet-cell batteries, perhaps the ancients found a way to keep us charged and even increase our capacity to hold a charge.

when your charge runs out, you stop moving...

forever


does proper oxygenation allow for better electrical conductivity?


what does anyone else think about this?

[TenTigers]

I am really having a hard time with this. Not with the topic, or your arguments, but in figuring out how to fight while wiggling my toes. It's really, really hard.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I am really having a hard time with this. Not with the topic, or your arguments, but in figuring out how to fight while wiggling my toes. It's really, really hard.

So is throwing a kick for some people. Perhaps you just are not at the toe wiggling anti-chi blast techniques yet.

[lkfmdc]

This thread sort of makes my brain hurt, but here's something to consider

The magician and haux debunker James Randy (sp?) has for close to 30 years offered a million dollars to anyone who claimed to be able to do a super natural feat if they would do it under scientific test conditions....

Only three people have taken him up on the offer and all three were humiliated in public when their scams were revealed....

If someone can jump up two stories, there's a million dollars waiting for you

[GreenCloudCLF]

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Here's the link...

[SimonM]

In 1972 there was no VHS or no Beta either I think. I will give you his name it was Lee Gann. I dont have to prove it I saw it that is enough for me.

Than please kindly stop spouting off as if you have something to contribute. Or if you want us to take your arguments seriously you call up your buddy Lee and ask him if he can still do his jumping feats. If he says "yes" than get it on tape. If he says "no" ask him if one of his students can.



I dont really care if I quote Yoda either. I didnt see Christ walk on water but I believe it.


So... let me get this straight... you actually believe that Yoda levitated an X-Wing fighter in a galaxy far-far away? No, wait, you just don't know how to organize your arguments in a cohesive manner.

Yeah, I don't believe that Jesus did magic tricks either. So far your arguments have included a puppet and a man who probably never existed and who certainly wasn't a deity.



So you guys spend time debating something you cant prove or disprove.


That's the thing. I'm not trying to disprove anything. I'm simply taking the position of the sceptic and saying if you want me to believe something than you will have to prove it.


I am not thirteen and trained longer than most of you have been alive.

Well your grammar says otherwise... That and your "shotgun" approach to punctuation. Tell you what Mr. I don't have to prove myself to you, I can spout off whatever I like on the internet, logic doesn't matter: put your money where your mouth is. I have a throwdown in the works for september of this year in Shanxi, China. I know, it's out of the way, but show up, SHOW ME, and if you do a good job I will admit that you were right.

[kwaichang]

Simon M My grammar is not there to impress you. You are not worthy. I did not know grammar was such a big deal. So , you know grammar so what? Any way just shut up you should just go eat some fish heads and rice and call it a day. I would not wast my time to try to prove anything to you. I dont fight for sport those days are gone. So get a JOB and understand this You are an As/ know what I mean. FU KC:(

[kwaichang]

Simon M so you organize but dont fight eh or do you try? KC:cool:

[David Jamieson]

k chill out guy.

you can type ass, so it's ok.

now simon, get a job so you can buy the video. :D

[kwaichang]

Thanks David I try to be nice but " Some times when I try to control my Temper I just go beserk" Billy J. Thanks Man KC :p

[SimonM]

Simon M so you organize but dont fight eh or do you try? KC:cool:

What the hell gave you that impression? I fight. I also organize.

Now as for my job... I'm an english teacher. I have Chinese ESL students whose ability to write coherently is superior to yours.

And I love the "I don't fight for sport" line. What a freaking cop-out.

Let me translate for you...


Despite my blather about Qi powers I haven't one iota of ability to actually fight. A teenager who had attended a week of boxing classes at a respectable gym would make me his b!tch.

Go back to the cinema twerp. You are not ready for real life yet.

David: I usually don't go grammar police on people over the internet but KC just makes it so easy. :)

[kwaichang]

Simon M You are a joke If I wanted to impress you with grammar it would be easy to do. I have known many who teach english. How hard is that. Look at the syntax. BTW why dont we have a friendly match when you return to the states Ill be waiting for your return KC JUst post when you are in the states.

[Scott R. Brown]

It seems that by performing silly stunts and feats of strength and endurance we can con some into thinking we can fight. Perhaps training to do stunts is a relatively effective form of self-defense training! If I can scare someone else into thinking I have amazing abilities I don’t have to actually fight them. I think it is called “bluffing”!! However, one unpleasant consequence is we end up with goofballs, wearing martial arts clothing and pulling trains with their testicles, representing the Martial Arts community.

Silly stunts say nothing about ones ability to fight; only that one can perform silly stunts.

[SimonM]

Simon M You are a joke If I wanted to impress you with grammar it would be easy to do. I have known many who teach english. How hard is that. Look at the syntax. BTW why dont we have a friendly match when you return to the states Ill be waiting for your return KC JUst post when you are in the states.

Um... I'm a Canadian. I don't generally go to the United States. However if you can't afford to come to China I'll be happy to let you know when I am back in Canada and where. Will be at least 15 months from now though since I just agreed to sign on for another year out here.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Yeah, I don't believe that Jesus did magic tricks either. So far your arguments have included a puppet and a man who probably never existed and who certainly wasn't a deity.


You know, I'm usually the first one to begin ripping into Christianity. That comment took me by surprise.

And for the record Jesus was proven as a historical character, the diety thing, obviously debatable.

Now, let's get back to the cross-continent challenge....Two men enter....two men leave...cause there's gonna be no fight.

[greendragon]

I have been hit by an internal punch that sent me flying backwards like an express elevator and the puncher barely moved. I am sure that it is not mystical and that all magic is science unexplained, but still, unexplained science surely exists. One thing that stands out to me in this argument is the emotional and intense denial of possibility by so many. Public sentiment is often a contrary indicator.

[David Jamieson]

And for the record Jesus was proven as a historical character, the diety thing, obviously debatable.



we'll actually know this or not after the general academia gets to look over the essene's scroll colection which has been denied to all academia by the Jesuits since tehy were found with only one or two highly specialized people being allowed to access them.

People try to cite roman judiciary records as well, but apparently, there is nothing solid there either.

So, Jesus is not 100% historically proven. He is still quite firmly embedded in the realm of Mythos like Thor.

there are reems and reems of people who use sophism to the nth degree to argue the 'actual' existance of a man named jesus etc etc, but the evidence isn't as solid as say John the Baptist who was a much bigger trouble maker and hit a lot of radars in his day ergo there are more fragments of history about him.

anyway, just saying that one could likely at this point in time win an argument based on factual evidence that Jesus of Nazareth did not actually exist and instead is a conglomorate of myths, archetypes and ideals rolled into a figure that was elevated to the godhead and used as a catalyst to bind people to the geo-political will of the church.


:)

[Anthony]

Would there be a point to being Catholic if evidence for all of it existed? There wouldn't. If there's evidence then I would have to believe...I would have no choice, in other words, there would be no reason for God to reward me for choosing to believe.

Of course I didn't see Christ.... "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen." All this arguing about evidence is pointless from a religious point of view. I have to be glad that there is no evidence so that I can have faith.

I'm Roman Catholic. I have faith. Pretty much end of story for me. The Bible is the only source.

[Anthony]

Sorry to change the subject. But the Catholic faith seems to pop up here and there on this forum where it shouldn't. Usually it's a discussion about evidence and I thought I might as well comment.

[David Jamieson]

Sorry to change the subject. But the Catholic faith seems to pop up here and there on this forum where it shouldn't. Usually it's a discussion about evidence and I thought I might as well comment.

As for MA superpowers.....don't believe in any of them. Luckily my salvation doesn't depend on it.

I don't think it's popping up where it shouldn't, conversations and discourse naturally turn when connections are made in some way either big or small.

And like any faith, there is certainly room for questions.

there's likely a lot of Catholics who participate on this board, so making lines between supernatural powers in human and the citing of Jesus or the Buddha isn't that big of a leap really.

[GreenCloudCLF]

DJ,

As far as Jesus as a historical character, from what I understand is there was a man born around the BCE/CE switch (in 3 CE I believe) with the name, parentage and locality of Jesus. I do readily admit, however, that at the time Jesus was as common a name then as John is now (at least from what I understand). Joseph and Mary begin common names then as well. Whether or not this man walked the Earth claiming to be the Son of God, is another story.


Would there be a point to being Catholic if evidence for all of it existed?
Anthony,

As a victim of the NYS Catholic school system of 13 years I have to say I am surprised. While much of the Catholic Faith is indeed based on the dictionary definition of faith, it is not all. In fact the RCC is happy to point out any historical facts that align Bible stories as true. If a newspaper article appeared speaking of how some local man changed water into wine at a wedding, but didn't mention anyone by name, the RCC would be happy to bring that story out as proof of the divinity of Jesus.

Don't mistake faith for a lack of proof. Some things are taken on faith because there is no way to prove them (yet). But if we can prove them it should strengthen your faith, not destroy it.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

While this video isn't new or anything supernatural, it is nevertheless remarkable. This man has practiced more than most, I would say.

http://www.ironpalm.com/CoconutLevel2PalmBreakPracticeOctober52003SiteClip Final.wmv

CSP

[GreenCloudCLF]

******...once Lacey gets on a thread it is all downhill....:mad: :mad: :mad:

[SimonM]

And for the record Jesus was proven as a historical character, the diety thing, obviously debatable.


I've yet to hear any definitive proof of the existence of the mythical founder of Christianity. If you know of some I'd be happy to look at the source.... Just remember that I am sceptical by nature.



Now, let's get back to the cross-continent challenge....Two men enter....two men leave...cause there's gonna be no fight.

It's not my fault nobody will come to fight me here in China and a two-way plane ticket is more than two month's pay so I haven't the financial ability to go globetrotting to beat up trolls. But if anyone does come to me I will fight with them.

[SimonM]

I have been hit by an internal punch that sent me flying backwards like an express elevator and the puncher barely moved. I am sure that it is not mystical and that all magic is science unexplained, but still, unexplained science surely exists. One thing that stands out to me in this argument is the emotional and intense denial of possibility by so many. Public sentiment is often a contrary indicator.

I've done that trick. Hitting someone hard enough to knock them backwards witout moving too much. It's a combination of two things. One is where you land the punch get it in just the right place and you can disrupt their balance. The other is how you use your weight. Movement doesn't have to be gross to generate good old-fashioned force. Nothing magical Qi about it.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I thought this was a thread about whether or not people thought that supernatural-seeming martial arts abilities were hoaxes or not. Why are you talking about Jesus and the Roman Catholic Church?

Because, as any good thread does, it got sidetracked. But it actually does fit into topic...kind of

[Ford Prefect]

But this is a KF forum, not everyone has T&F knowledge. Also if you are debating points with someone, very few will do legwork to prove themselves wrong...ya know...

I was stating fact to be taken or left. I could care less if somebody decided to believe that the monkey chi kung master jumped 15 feet into a branch, and I'm not looking to debate silly fantasy like that. "There's a sucker born every minute."

[TenTigers]

the quote from Yoda, whether it was in a movie or not still holds water. The Jedi was based on a combination of ideas that were based in Asian martial arts and philosophies. Look, we all quote many things that we heard in movies, whether it is Clint Eastwood, Clockwork Orange,Kwai Chang Caine, ore Christopher Walken,it doesn't take the relevance from it

[GreenCloudCLF]

I was stating fact to be taken or left. I could care less if somebody decided to believe that the monkey chi kung master jumped 15 feet into a branch, and I'm not looking to debate silly fantasy like that. "There's a sucker born every minute."

I understand where you are coming from, all I'm saying is if you want to contribute, do so ...don';t be half-assed. Saying something and not giving references does no one any good.

Some people on this forum would argue that my name is not Jason if they had an opportunity.

[GreenCloudCLF]

the quote from Yoda, whether it was in a movie or not still holds water. The Jedi was based on a combination of ideas that were based in Asian martial arts and philosophies. Look, we all quote many things that we heard in movies, whether it is Clint Eastwood, Clockwork Orange,Kwai Chang Caine, ore Christopher Walken,it doesn't take the relevance from it

unless it was from the South Parl movie...Uncle ****er....

[Anthony]

"I've yet to hear any definitive proof of the existence of (Christ)"

You probably never will. A skeptic tends to stay a skeptic and most likely no proof will satisfy you. I don't have Christ's W-2 forms or Social Security number myself but I know that both Jewish and Catholic records are cited by scholars to convince them of his existence. The Bible although is the primary source of information on him. His existence has never been a subject of debate to my knowledge.

I can't honestly argue what greater minds than mine have delved deeper into so I have to reccomend for you to research elsewhere. I'm sure the Web or Barne's and Noble contain the works of theologians that would be much more in depth than anyone here (or any other average Catholic) can go into. If youre' looking to convert then good luck! Seriously though...the Jewish/Roman Catholic Religions will most likely always be a matter of faith to a large extent. Research is obviously good but I don't think any religion expects all of it's followers to be theologians.

I personally feel that the writers of the Bible gave us what they fealt was important as far as Christs message and left out superficial stuff like his skin or eye color...etc.

I guess a thread gets sidetracked like any other normal conversation.

[Ford Prefect]

I understand where you are coming from, all I'm saying is if you want to contribute, do so ...don';t be half-assed. Saying something and not giving references does no one any good.

Some people on this forum would argue that my name is not Jason if they had an opportunity.

Similar to the way I couldn't care less about people wanting to believe in magic, I also couldn't care less about people who want to dictate exactly how I should post on a public forum. If I want to post easily verifiable information, then I don't feel the need to cite a reference. This goes for high jump records, the melting point of water, or the approximate population of the United States.

If you need a reference for such easily verifiable facts, then you are either extremely ignorant or extremely lazy. Either way, I wouldn't wish to enter in a discussion with somebody like that.

[Ford Prefect]

I've yet to hear any definitive proof of the existence of the mythical founder of Christianity. If you know of some I'd be happy to look at the source.... Just remember that I am sceptical by nature.



...

There is a brief reference to Jesus by Roman historian Josephus although the authenticity of that has come into question. I've yet to see any serious contentions to the authenticity though. If you look on the web, everybody discounting Josephus's account say things like "It's common knowledge it's a forgery" or "It's a well known hoax", but they'll never reference any actual proof.

I'm an atheist, so the argument doesn't hold any special meaning for me.

[SevenStar]

His existence has never been a subject of debate to my knowledge.

same here. what's always been debated was whether or not he was actually God's son.


I personally feel that the writers of the Bible gave us what they fealt was important as far as Christs message and left out superficial stuff like his skin or eye color...etc.


who said that wasn't mentioned? the bible states that he had skin of brass and hair like wool... A far cry from all of the paintings you see today. it was mentioned in revelation as a vision which john had.

This is also coincidentally cool:

"And He had in His right hand seven stars" ...that has nothing to do with why I chose this name though.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Similar to the way I couldn't care less about people wanting to believe in magic, I also couldn't care less about people who want to dictate exactly how I should post on a public forum. If I want to post easily verifiable information, then I don't feel the need to cite a reference. This goes for high jump records, the melting point of water, or the approximate population of the United States.

If you need a reference for such easily verifiable facts, then you are either extremely ignorant or extremely lazy. Either way, I wouldn't wish to enter in a discussion with somebody like that.

I DID in fact go out and look for the info you posted. I was referring to others. I am in no way trying to tell you how to post on a public forum. I was just stating there was a disagreement, and by posting a link earlier you could have proven yourself right earlier.

[Ford Prefect]

I DID in fact go out and look for the info you posted. I was referring to others. I am in no way trying to tell you how to post on a public forum. I was just stating there was a disagreement, and by posting a link earlier you could have proven yourself right earlier.

I was using the general you and not talking about you, GreenCloudCLF.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I was using the general you and not talking about you, GreenCloudCLF.

Apologies then, I misunderstood...:D

[SimonM]

Being someone who has spent many years in institutions of higher learning, first as a student and most recently as a student, I am (admittedly) the sort who would ask you to cite your sources if you said the sky was blue. However I also tend to read those sources once they have been provided and if they measure up to reasonable academic scrutiny I will concede points.

[Ford Prefect]

Seeing as I come from a scientific background, perhaps I have a different take. If somebody were to ask for a source following any easily verifiable fact, then very little would be done. I can see it now:

A: "So seeing as how gravity effects the human body..."

B (interrupting): "Wait a minute there fella. Can you cite a source that a force known as gravity exists."

A: "Well we have Newton's Law and Einstein's Relativity. This is them (explains)"

B: "Ok. Ok. Well is there experimental data proving these men are correct."

A: "Well, yes. Here are some studies published in peer-reviewed journals validating these theories."

B: "Alright. I'll concede your point on that. Now where is the data on how it effects the human body."

A: "Well, the earth creates a gravitational field and thus everything on it including humans will feel some effects."

B: "I want sources buddy. I will need to read them."

A: "Well, okay. Here are some studies about gravity's effect on the human body and even mechanisms and structures in the human body which can be seen as an adaption to coping with the amount of gravity found here on earth."

B: "Very well then. Continue."

A: "Alright. Seeing as how gravity effects the human body, then one can say space flight..."

B: "Whoah Whoah Whoah. Are you saying human's have flown in space?"

A: "Yes."

B: "Source"

A: "Isn't it kind of obvious. It's really not up to debate."

B: "No way buddy. I need dates, times, news reports, official logs..."

A: "Nevermind. Lecture over."

---

When something is actually in contention, then by all means question it. Needing a source for things like the sky being blue, athletic records, etc is being a bit a ignoramous, imo.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think he was being literal there Ford. :p

and yes, I agree, that which is self evident is indeed...self evident, ground is beneath your feet, unless you look at it from the theory of relativity viewpoint. Sky is above, etc etc, all these are self evident. Besides, sometimes the sky is red, or orange, or grey, but anyway... not literal.

Now, in matters concerning mystical or religious belief, tere is first teh matter of the 'leap of faith' which in and of itself negates the need for quantative evidence in the one who has made that leap.

The bible is a conglomerate of books patched together over millenia. There are contradictions throughout it in it's entireity including the gospels. It was written by men, who probably had an agenda and lets not forgetthat for thousands of years, religion was the power center and was teh government.

The hold that it has on teh human mind is deep and strong. And so, you probably won't see significant change in our lifetime.

A person who disbelieves because they cannot be shown validity is not really skeptical, they just aren't about to be sold a pig in a poke. If someone wants my heart and mind for whatever reason then there must be reasonable proof of a valid reason to give up that which is intimately, intrinsically and extrinsically mine and no one elses.

I'd rather be responsible for as much of my life and mind as possible without having to struggle with antiquated belief systems, laws and morality that for the most part is outdated and outmoded in thinking and in practice.

I mean, just peruse the bible for a little while and you'll see how irrelevant a good chunk of it is to us in the here and now. Kill your enemies? Beat your children? Subjicate your wives? It's pretty twisted quite through and through on many levels.

anyway...

[FuXnDajenariht]

dude i just made the perfect ****in pancake. :D

i amaze myself sumtimes.

[GreenCloudCLF]

dude i just made the perfect ****in pancake. :D

i amaze myself sumtimes.

Can you provide sources proving that?

[kwaichang]

David J , are you trying to make a religous point or something and how does this "point " of yours apply to Martial Arts ?? BTW you cited Old Testament. KC:cool:

[SimonM]

Seeing as I come from a scientific background, perhaps I have a different take. If somebody were to ask for a source following any easily verifiable fact, then very little would be done. I can see it now:

A: "So seeing as how gravity effects the human body..."

B (interrupting): "Wait a minute there fella. Can you cite a source that a force known as gravity exists."

A: "Well we have Newton's Law and Einstein's Relativity. This is them (explains)"

B: "Ok. Ok. Well is there experimental data proving these men are correct."

A: "Well, yes. Here are some studies published in peer-reviewed journals validating these theories."

B: "Alright. I'll concede your point on that. Now where is the data on how it effects the human body."

A: "Well, the earth creates a gravitational field and thus everything on it including humans will feel some effects."

B: "I want sources buddy. I will need to read them."

A: "Well, okay. Here are some studies about gravity's effect on the human body and even mechanisms and structures in the human body which can be seen as an adaption to coping with the amount of gravity found here on earth."

B: "Very well then. Continue."

A: "Alright. Seeing as how gravity effects the human body, then one can say space flight..."

B: "Whoah Whoah Whoah. Are you saying human's have flown in space?"

A: "Yes."

B: "Source"

A: "Isn't it kind of obvious. It's really not up to debate."

B: "No way buddy. I need dates, times, news reports, official logs..."

A: "Nevermind. Lecture over."



ROTFLMFAO! As DJ said I was not being literal. Still that was VERY funny and if you think about how strident the peer review process can be at times.... :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi David,

There is an element of evidentiary experience found in many religious systems. I believe the “leap of faith” is mostly a Christian concept.

The idea of “faith” found in a many religious systems is merely a trust that the system, if adhered too, will provide a specified result. The same applies to scientific learning; when taking a science class a student may have faith the teacher knows the subject and will teach true facts while the student goes about confirming the facts learned through experiment. All learning then has some basis in faith until enough experience is acquired to demonstrate the truth of the teachings learned.

The bottom line for many is, does the religious system provide the individual with the results they were told they could expect. To many it is more a question of “quality of life” rather than a matter of “truth of facts” that is important. So if I am "happy" believing the leprechauns bring me success and it appears to be a successful belief for me, I am content to continue the belief. I may only question it if I experience facts that contradict with my belief and I am not able to devise or be provided with rationalizations that disprove or explain away the apparent conflicts. This is also a quality found in the scientific minded however, so it should not be viewed only as an affliction of the religious minded, but as an affliction of the human need to validate their own preferred beliefs.

But then again, it is only viewed as an affliction to those of an opposing view and not to the individual who adheres to any particular belief. system.

[GreenCloudCLF]

David J , are you trying to make a religous point or something and how does this "point " of yours apply to Martial Arts ?? BTW you cited Old Testament. KC:cool:

What he was saying DOES tie into the "chi-blast" thing.

Also, does it matter if DJ cited to Old Testament????:confused: