So I left my school

[Chief Fox]

Over the past year I've really been reconsidering why I attend the school I do. Basically we do a ton of forms from many different styles including Northern Shaolin, 7 star Praying Mantis, Wing Chun, and Hung Gar. We also include basic San Shou fighting techniques as well as Tai Chi. In adition to all of this we do many conditioning types of drills. Stance work in many different fashions. We lightly spar on a regular basis. One thing that is missing is 2 man drills. We very rarely drill the actual techniques from the forms. This leaves a huge gap in taking the techniques from the form to actual sparring.

Now I really enjoy kung fu but with all the different styles that we train in, it is very difficult to get proficient at any one style. There are subtle differences in each as well as major differences in theory and technique.

As a result I would say that my conditioning is good but my sparring is probably mediocre at best and I'm one of the top students.

So a week and a half ago I just up and walked out of class. I didn't talk to my sifu I just left. I couldn't take it any more.

Also, over the past two months I've been training with another sifu in his kitchen. The comparison is night and day. This guy is the real deal and it shows in the way he approaches and structures class.

Anyway, I feel guilty that I have left my school of over 3 years. I've been thinking about going back but I'm not sure. What would be the point? I miss my friends at the school and I feel that I owe my sifu some kind of explanation or something.

Not sure what I'm saying here. Any thoughts?

[jethro]

Now coming from a movie guy I will tell you this------the learning of kungfu is neverending, one can spend their entire life mastering ONE style, etc. I am sure3 that you have heard all of these, but you raise a very good question here.

WHAT IS BETTER:

Studying as many styles as possible
OR
Trying to master one style


But you should go talk to your sifu just as long as he is like the mentors you have had in the past.
So doesn't sound all bad for you either, so cheer up, I just saw the iron monkey.

[SanHeChuan]

I would talk to your sifu about leaving the school with out a doubt. Other wise you're just being rude. Should you change your mind and decided to go back to the school in later you won't look like an ass.

If you feel comfortable enough to talk about why your leaving, he would probably appriecate some constructive critizism and may even change his class some to incorperate more drills.

[Songshan]

Whoa, I would at least tell your sifu you are leaving the school. It is the respectful thing to do. Why burn youir bridges? You did learn something from him over the time you have trained at the school, right? I don't think any instructor out there would hold it against you if you left, so long as you told him you did and why. It's well within your right. Like the previous post said offer some constructive criticism and most of all thank him for his teachings....move on!

[Oso]

yea man, should not have just walked out. you may not have the opportunity to go back now. if you had walked out on one of my classes you would be automatically suspended for at least a month. You let your frustration build w/o communicating to the person you needed to talk to.

take it from a teacher who's been lied to and mislead by several students lately, do the right thing and at least explain to him the REAL reasons you're leaving...if you still can. Open with an apology for your rudeness and see if he'll listen.

we all recommended you follow the new guy since you were feeling so good about it...but not in this manner.

[mantis108]

The good thing is you found out that you have out grown your old training model which I figure is about 80 - 90 % of Kung Fu schools in North America.

The bad thing is both you and your teacher found out the truth the hard way. BTW, I don't think criticism (even a friendly one) is going to help here. It might just add insult to injury for your teacher. I think you have pin-pointed the problem of the teaching. It's at best eclectic collection of forms. I would be hard press to consider that a system even. The truth is horizontal growth doesn't challenge you any more. There are really very few individuals who can teach Kung Fu in a fluid and structureless format. Using no way as way and having no limit as limit is at best one in a million odd.

Ugly - well, that's the reality because you walked out without saying a word. This is hard to swallow for any teacher IMHO. So, there is really one option which is to leave it at that and move on. Time has come for you to search for the deeper meaning in martial arts and time waits for nobody.

Regards

Mantis108

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I have been instructing students on a full time basis for over 15 years. I've enrolled a ton of people and have had a ton quite. I have not been able to satisfy everyone with my vision of training. However, it was always beneficial to me when a student would tell me that they were leaving the school (It wasn't often that anyone actually told me...most just do what you did...leave without a word) and for what reason they were leaving.

Several times, I have taken an honest look at why the student had left and changed things about my program. Sometimes, I didn't care if they left as we weren't a good fit from the begining. But ask yourself this question; "Did you talk to your Sifu at any time during your training, about the challenges you were having?" If you didn't, you probably owe him that, especially if you want him to be successful in the future. If you told him and he didn't listen, then you should still tell him good-bye and thank him anyway. But if he didn't listen, you leaving is a lesson for him to learn from.

Although most people don't like to hear it, we all benefit from constructive criticism. I for one, teach almost 600 students at my two academies. I have to teach in such a way, that most of them feel is beneficial. But the truth is, if I taught the way I'd like to teach, I'd have very few students. When you teach for a profession, you have to find a successful way to teach the masses, as you rely on them for income. If this is the case with your Sifu, I assume your constructive criticism would definatly help him.

[Donkwoon]

I know how you feel because I have been through things like this in the past. First, don't burn any bridges if you don't have to. Show good charactor by talking to him about this and telling him that you want to study another style for a while. It seems that you have your mind made up that the new Sifu has something to offer and so I would stick to my guns if I were you. If he reacts in a very negitive way, then maybe it's time to move on compleatly.

I've been in and out of martial arts for more then half of my life and I can truly say that "the grass is always greener" saying often holds true. My restless spirit and desire for change has led me from one school to another over the years and I have been able to sample from a wide variety of styles. But like the saying goes; A rolling stone gathers no moss. My constant moving on has often left me with thoughts of what could have been....not only in the martial sense but in the social sense as well.

Specificaly, I can relate to your concern regarding drills and application. My Sifu is not nearly as intense in this aspect as I would like him to be but he has his reasons for this and I respect the way he runs the class. I also choose to be there of my own free will.

I'll leave you with some good food for thought by telling you why I stay with my Sifu. First, he is strong minded enough to not feel threatened or undercut when I study with someone else. In fact, he has on many occaisions hosted other teachers at his kwoon. Second, the quality of his teaching is excellant. He may not teach all the things that I want him to but what I do get, is the genuine article. And most importantly, his knowledge of Tai Chi and Chi Gung makes it worth staying with him even if I never learn another Kung Fu set.

Try out the new guy and see how that goes and also try to remain on good terms with your old Sifu. If you think that your position is tough then just think about what it is like for people like myself. I'm 39 years old and there is no kung fu within an hour of where I live. Even if there was, I really don't have the $ to spend on it. I only get to go visit my Sifu and the friends that I've made at his school a handfull of times per year. What I have is what I have. It's forced me to learn to value what I've learned and that's an entire Kung fu lesson on it's own....

[Ultimatewingchun]

You did what you had to do.

You weren't learning how to fight in that school.

Time to go.

[Yum Cha]

Chief,
Trust yourself. Trust your intuition. As the saying goes, everything you need to know, you already know, you just have to realise you know it.

It sounds to me like you have already realised it is time for you to move forward. And, it sounds like you have found a new Sifu to help you.

This leaves the matter of your past, and paying your respect and gratitude to your former sifu and your kung fu brothers (and sisters). If you can resolve this, I suggest you will feel more able to move forward, and you will resolve this nagging regret you voiced.

Say what you have to say or don't, and move on. Nobody can give you the answer better than you can find it yourself.

Courage comes in many forms.

[jethro]

The good thing is you found out that you have out grown your old training model which I figure is about 80 - 90 % of Kung Fu schools in North America.

The bad thing is both you and your teacher found out the truth the hard way. BTW, I don't think criticism (even a friendly one) is going to help here. It might just add insult to injury for your teacher. I think you have pin-pointed the problem of the teaching. It's at best eclectic collection of forms. I would be hard press to consider that a system even. The truth is horizontal growth doesn't challenge you any more. There are really very few individuals who can teach Kung Fu in a fluid and structureless format. Using no way as way and having no limit as limit is at best one in a million odd.

Ugly - well, that's the reality because you walked out without saying a word. This is hard to swallow for any teacher IMHO. So, there is really one option which is to leave it at that and move on. Time has come for you to search for the deeper meaning in martial arts and time waits for nobody.

Regards

Mantis108


do you have like a 900 # I can call and actually hear stuff like this.

[hskwarrior]

follow your heart Chief Fox. Follow your heart.

I see how you could feel empty because of the lack of actual applications drills.

but how i teach my students i teach them the combinations, we do them against a partner and when they have that down pat, i then teach them the form because they will have a better understanding on how to use it instead of acting like a robot.

the school wasn't suiting your needs, and its good to move on.

or you could have initiated the applications drills yourself. grab a partner and drill the hell out of it.

you have to realize something, your sifu gives you the tools, it is up to you to find YOUR way because your sifu found his. you must make the gung fu part of your soul and then let that out. you will know what i mean when you -if not already-find yours. it becomes you. no one else but you. so what will you do with the gift your sifu gave you?

i may not have left the school, but would have requested the sifu add in the things your were missing. that way he wouldn't have lost a student.

if i don't make sense, i'm on muscle relaxers.

hsk

[Chief Fox]

I just want to make a few things clear so you all don't think I'm a total j@ck@ss.

I respect the he!! out of my sifu and I do want to see his school succeed. But the situation kinda just got to be too much for me.

Out of respect for my sifu, I suggested that he make video tapes of the entry level forms so he could sell them to new students for reference material. I did the video taping, I edited the video, I bought the video tapes, printed labels and presented them to him free of charge. He asked how much he owed me and I told him that I just wanted to do my part.

I printed t-shirts that I sell in his school and we split the profits.

I painted a huge sign on the windows in the front of his school.

I built a professional website for the school.

I did all this out of the goodness of my heart and out of respect for my sifu and what he has taught me. I never have and never will expect anything extra for what I've done. I did it as a token of appreciation.

A couple of months ago, I sat down with my sifu and two senior students. They asked what I wanted out of the school. I told them that I simply don't feel comfortable with the material after 3 years. I told them that I felt that I am not comfortable enough with the applications or techniques to use them in sparring. My sifu said, I've seen you use applications from forms all the time. One senior student said, well you can kick my butt. The other senior student asked if I was interested in teaching some classes. All very nice things to say but I don't think they were listening. The conversation downgraded from there.

The night I walked out, we had just completed several different drills from three different kung fu styles we spent all of 3 minutes on each drill (if that). I thought to myself, how am I ever going to really absorb this stuff and make it a part of me if this is all the time we dedicate to it? It was ridiculous. I honestly got so frustrated that it was better that I left and not said anything.

I'll call my sifu tomorrow and apologize. I'll ask him if it's alright if I take a month off and see how I feel after that.

Thanks again to all of you for your input. I really do appreciate it.

[hskwarrior]

chief fox,

can i ask you a question? "what brought you to this sifu anyway, you chose him right?"

yeah maybe a month off is a good thing. But i have been in your shoes only different circumstances. Me, you know i come from a real traditional school, and for being the only white guy there most of the time i was being ****ted on regularly. luckily i'm not a punk and can take being ****ted on, but on the other hand i knew if i quit because of that everyone from my school would think i was weak, and a sissy. so I stuck it through, and now look, basically i'm my sifu's #1 now.

as a caucasian in a school that would prefer to keep it all asian i was on the receiving end of BS alot. don't laugh but i even told my sifu i was turning in my shirt and going to quit. you know what they did? they made jokes out of it and made me feel stupid. it was stupid to want to quit because i was making mistakes and getting repremanded for it. but, i have the chinese characters of "Hung Sing" in big black and red letters tattooed on my chest, and realized that i love my school and im not weak so why quit. even more, everytime i take off my shirt.........BAMMMMMMMM there they are, "hung sing" and i can't get rid of it.

So Chief, if i were in your shoes, and love my sifu, like the styles, etc, etc, i would ADD what is missing in the curriculum, run it by your sifu see what he thinks, or become a teacher and add in all the elements you felt was missing from your school. in the end your sifu will still have you as a student, you are more satisfied because you are contributing to your school, and the other students benefit as well from what you feel is lacking.

trust me, i know. I did it! when i grew up (from 13 to now) my sifu never really taught drills or applications. it was always expected for us to figure it out. we repeatedly practice the same old boring sets, but when it came to fighting we all felt like we didn't know what to do. but when people are watching as your sifu asks you "chief, come here and show us how to use this technique" don't be scaredl, go up and do it. even if your sifu never taught you that particular applicatin, you sifu may realize that chief has some skill.

as a sifu, i take all that my sifu never did, and do this for my students. I know that there are not alot of gung fu fanatics who made it their lives like i have, it days like these "figuring it out for your self" takes too long, so i hand feed my students until i see they start developing the gung fu within them.

don't leave the school chief. just bring your concerns back to your sifu and lay it out nakedly on the table, and i don't mean you lay nakedly either.!!!!!!!! tell your sifu what you a re looking for, ask him if he can provide it for you, if he can't, then i guess its time to move on to a new school.

but trust me, the gung fu is within, you should begin your search there, and find what makes "Chief" tick as a gung fu man.

sorry soo lllloooonnnggggg.


hsk

[Ray Pina]

I've gotten mad at my master -- when he was telling me things I needed to hear but didn't want to:) -- and walked out. I always cool down after a few days and call him and apologize and get back to business.

I've been in your situation though too, when I realise it's just time to move on. Hey, you're not supposed to stay in kindergarden forever. It's time to move on. Don't hate your kindergarden teacher though. Thank them and move on.

Seems like you're ready now to go shopping for a place that fits your needs.

[David Jamieson]

um, you do practice on your own time don't you?

I mean, if you want to discover applications, then you have to practice and not just in class on class time but at home, alone or with a kungfu brother or sister.

Discover what you can and where you find bumps, take that to the sifu for clarification.

You may have seventy forms to learn but you only really need to take one or two and make them yours, the rest is just material to hang onto and practice with a gradual approach so that you can at least get some benefit from them


sparring is something that occurs in degrees as you learn and practice more. there will always be a limit to what can eb achieved with sparring.

copmpetitive fighting is different because you don't really care about or feel responsible for your opponent and you feel freer to open up more and flex the style and techniques. With friends and kwoon mates, you won't really get this experience and will find yourself apologizing for hitting too hard or too sensitive a place or whatever. Meterd sparring is a learning experience, but it can be a drag on real learning of fighting. You could take a more direct path, but then, you probably risk more injury which in turn can really effect your training path by slowing it down even more. So it's a trade off in that respect.

But, if you don't feel right about being there, then just say you need a break from it and you want to head out and have a look around. there really shouldn't be a problem with that.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I began my training in an Okinawan style Karate. Although I felt the style itself was good, the instructor was not. He had little experience(only about five years of training) and we rarely sparred. After a while one of the students got hurt(broken shin) and we never sparred again. Only kata and self-defense 2 man drills with no resistance. I studied this way for 2 years and finally got tired of getting my ass kicked by people newer than me who went to MA classes that actually sparred. I quit and found a Pai Lum school with a good teacher who taught good fighting skills. He always encouraged us to cross train and learn as much as we could. I branched out and trained with a boxing coach and with wrestlers and jiujitsu practioners who threw me around(and still do) and taught me basic ground fighting. The point Chief Fox that I am trying to make is that you have to find what is right for you. There is nothing wrong with branching out and trying new things. If you studied for seven years under your Sifu, however, I would have departed on better terms. You may want to train there again someday again. I always tell my students to learn as much as they can and try different things, because there is no such thing as a perfect system.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think it's about growing.

It seems like your first school was a mixture of styles. It was probally a good platform for you to decide what direction you wanted to go in. Now it's time for you to get more in depth instruction, which you are doing.

It'd be nice for you to be on good terms with your first sifu. I don't think you have a need to ever go back there for training. it seems like you got what you could from it and it's time to move on.

BTW, what's the schools website?

[mantiskilla]

Some people teach for money, some teach because they want to pass it on. Many, if not most, schools are run as businesses for a profit. I dont understand the mentality that says you owe any explanation to a BUSINESS that is taking your money. If I quit a gym, I dont sit and tell them why, I just leave. There seems to be this strange combination now a days where schools want to keep the 'traditional' aspects, but them mix them with aspects of running a for profit business. I personally dont see them being compatable. If, for example, you were living with your teacher and working for him to earn your keep and he was also teaching you, then yes, you owe him an explanation. If on the other hand, it is a school where you pay your $80-$100 per month (and still offer your services to him as you stated) then you dont owe anything. You can both walk away any time, it's business. I've seen both sides of the coin on this personally, so it is just my opinion.
________
ANAL VIDS (http://www.****tube.com/categories/2/anal/videos/1)

[SanHeChuan]

It can be hard for any school to keep up with the needs of thier advanced students, few students stick around long at the advanced levels. Few upper level students means that the school has to rely on new students to meet the schools finacial needs. Schools meet the need of the new studnets, and the advanced students are trapped in that cycle of teaching and learning with each new generation. This does help you to refine and grow in your understanding of the basics, but does limit other area's that you need and are ready to grow into. Changing school will almost never solve all your problems, but is sometimes nessary anyway.

I would encourage you to stay at your new school, take the oportunity to teach a new class, (in a new time slot, or and old one if your sifu will give it to you to do what you want) and focus that class on all that you think your missing.

You also need to realize that not everyone will be ready or interested in learning what you want to work on. So, your class should be sperate from the normal curriclum and optional. Also be sure to have a lesson plan in place for your new class, if you try to wing it, you class just won't be as good.

I would also encourage you to continue with your new teacher.

All decisions are ofcourse your own, be sure you know why your making them. :cool:

[Songshan]

I just want to make a few things clear so you all don't think I'm a total j@ck@ss.

I respect the he!! out of my sifu and I do want to see his school succeed. But the situation kinda just got to be too much for me.

Out of respect for my sifu, I suggested that he make video tapes of the entry level forms so he could sell them to new students for reference material. I did the video taping, I edited the video, I bought the video tapes, printed labels and presented them to him free of charge. He asked how much he owed me and I told him that I just wanted to do my part.

I printed t-shirts that I sell in his school and we split the profits.

I painted a huge sign on the windows in the front of his school.

I built a professional website for the school.

I did all this out of the goodness of my heart and out of respect for my sifu and what he has taught me. I never have and never will expect anything extra for what I've done. I did it as a token of appreciation.

A couple of months ago, I sat down with my sifu and two senior students. They asked what I wanted out of the school. I told them that I simply don't feel comfortable with the material after 3 years. I told them that I felt that I am not comfortable enough with the applications or techniques to use them in sparring. My sifu said, I've seen you use applications from forms all the time. One senior student said, well you can kick my butt. The other senior student asked if I was interested in teaching some classes. All very nice things to say but I don't think they were listening. The conversation downgraded from there.

The night I walked out, we had just completed several different drills from three different kung fu styles we spent all of 3 minutes on each drill (if that). I thought to myself, how am I ever going to really absorb this stuff and make it a part of me if this is all the time we dedicate to it? It was ridiculous. I honestly got so frustrated that it was better that I left and not said anything.

I'll call my sifu tomorrow and apologize. I'll ask him if it's alright if I take a month off and see how I feel after that.

Thanks again to all of you for your input. I really do appreciate it.


I see your point clearly now....very clearly. It all reminds of a sitatuation a friend of mine went through. It seems you have invested a lot of time and assistance with the school you are with. You are a senior student so that tells me you been there a while. The end result is material learned that doesn't quite satisfy your skill. Perhaps maybe you thought by going an extra mile by contributing the things you did would have put you in a different category to learn or receive different training than what's offered. Leave the politics to the politicians. Not to worry. If you like the school your with by all means stay. Maybe a short leave of abscence is all you need.

Just remember when you are a "senior" student your not just someone who goes to the school and train. You should have the basic foundation on how your style works. Your sifu isn't just a sifu but also a friend. So I think you owe him a conversation of what you are thinking. There are tournaments and things like that to test your skill against other styles in a friendly way. Why don't you try a few tournaments to see how your style holds up?? Good Luck to you!

[David Jamieson]

Well, there is also the law of diminishing returns that will kick in at different times depending on how quickly you learn and how much material there is that is being taught.

in your first year, you'll know next to nothing, so the returns on studay are large. With time, this diminishes and after a long enough time, you will not be learning anything that significantly new.

This law applies to all forms of study.

Yes the kungfu well is deep, buyt it is not the full depth within only one teacher.

One must visit a few wells to understand the differing tastes of water in an area. :-)

Maybe it's time for you to seek out other wells?

[Chief Fox]

I don't have a problem with my sifu as a person. He's a great guy. I chose him because I knew that I wanted to study kung fu. I called around and he was the coolest guy I talked to. It didn't take too long to call around. There isn't much kung fu in southern colorado.

The problem I have is the approach to kung fu. I call it the mile wide/inch deep approach. There is a ton of material. I've talked about this before. I have close to 30 forms that I've learned in the past 3 and half years. It's almost impossible for me to maintain all of that and have any indepth knowledge of any of them. Also, the classes have no structure. It's like this random cornecopia of kung fu convering many different styles. I'm sure the instructers out there know that the structure of a class can make the material easier to grasp. My school is like throwing a bunch of random stuff at a wall to see what sticks but I'm still responsible for all the stuff that didn't stick.

I do practice everyday on my own and once or twice a week I meet up with another student to review drills and appllications. I get so much more out of this than the actual classes.

I have hung in there, I have stuck it out. Most of the students that were a higer rank than me when I started are now gone. Ironically, they were all at the same level that I am right now when they decided leave.

The more I think about this, the more I believe I made the right decision. I will call my sifu to talk about it. I may go back to a Tai Chi class a couple times a month if it's ok with him.

Thanks again for all the input and support.

[wdl]

I do practice everyday on my own and once or twice a week I meet up with another student to review drills and appllications. I get so much more out of this than the actual classes.


And you always will. Class is for learning. Think about it, how many hours per week do you spend in actual class time? 3-6? Somewhere in there? Your always going to get more out of reviewing drills and developing application outside of class. That's what class is for, to get you to that place. If your one of the senior students, isn't alot of the responsibility yours to do this? It's how you get better at what you do. If you miss the two man sets, ask your Sifu if he wouldn't mind developing some, maybe with you, based on forms you have, etc. It wouldn't be the first time.

-Will

[bodhitree]

I just recently quit with a teacher that I felt obligated to out of friendship. I was also a key member of his lion dance team. It just isn't for me any more, and I have other things that I need to be doing. Right now I don't do any gongfu anymore, only mma stuff, and that is what I feel is good for me now. you need to do what you need to do for your own growth.

[WinterPalm]

I would say that you should at least tell your Sifu you no longer desire to train with him for whatever reasons. If you are indeed a senior student, then you owe him at least that much. Regardless of money, there is a real effort, energy, and time consumption in training somebody, teaching them kung fu, and you shouldn't walk out without at least an explanation. The worst that could happen is he would be dissapointed in you or slightly mad...or the death touch. Just pay your respects and see how things go.

I would also say that after three years, you should still be learning a lot. I've been with my Sifu for five years and just when I think I'm getting somewhere, he shows me something new and it compeletely changes my perspective. There are definately plateaus, and there are definately ends of the road, so you should think hard and the best thing would be to just say you need that month or two off to think things over.

Best of luck!

[mantis108]

I don't have a problem with my sifu as a person. He's a great guy. I chose him because I knew that I wanted to study kung fu. I called around and he was the coolest guy I talked to. It didn't take too long to call around. There isn't much kung fu in southern colorado.

I don't think personality is the issue here either. But don't get distrated by emotionally attachement if it's growth that's you are after.


The problem I have is the approach to kung fu. I call it the mile wide/inch deep approach. There is a ton of material. I've talked about this before. I have close to 30 forms that I've learned in the past 3 and half years.

I think there is also a problem of cohesiveness as well from what you described. What does the material stands for? Is there a theme to it at all?


It's almost impossible for me to maintain all of that and have any indepth knowledge of any of them.

It's hard to be inspired if you have a cluttered corpus. It's hard to even organize and catalogue them. BTW, some forms' requirement actually contradict each other. (ie Taichi and Hung Gar would be totally opposit). It just adds confusion more so than anything else.


Also, the classes have no structure. It's like this random cornecopia of kung fu convering many different styles. I'm sure the instructers out there know that the structure of a class can make the material easier to grasp. My school is like throwing a bunch of random stuff at a wall to see what sticks but I'm still responsible for all the stuff that didn't stick.

That's the big one. Structure, focus, and direction are important to any Kung Fu system. Those are the stuff that make or break a system. Understanding the underlining theme be it physcial, philosophical or spiritual will definitely help both the teacher and the student. Now of course it is the teacher's role to lead and the student's faith to follow. You have to have trust and faith in each other.


I do practice everyday on my own and once or twice a week I meet up with another student to review drills and appllications. I get so much more out of this than the actual classes.

That's good. But have you asked yourself what do you really really want out of these sessions and what do you really really want out of Kung Fu. You seemed to be quite passionate about it but where are you heading really?


I have hung in there, I have stuck it out. Most of the students that were a higer rank than me when I started are now gone. Ironically, they were all at the same level that I am right now when they decided leave.

Sorry to say that it is a sign that your Sifu has struck a plateau and he's has not been improving since at least about 3 years. There's hardly any break through for him. Chances are he will not have a break through in the next 3 to 5 years to come. So... Teachers of martial arts should like be professors of university. One must know how to learn before teaching. Never stop researching and growing. This is why a good teacher should have a well thought out and well organized curriculum. Just a few thoughts.


The more I think about this, the more I believe I made the right decision. I will call my sifu to talk about it. I may go back to a Tai Chi class a couple times a month if it's ok with him.

I believe you have made the right decision as well. It's good that you are going to try to remedy the situation. I wish you best of luck.

Regards

Mantis108

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Different students have different potentials. Some have trouble getting past k, some past grade 5, some past grade 8 etc. Some will not achieve grade 12 some will never go on to University, a few will get their Masters and very few a PHd. Same with kung fu students. Some students reach their potential and the teacher cannot take them into more advanced aspects because they are not picking up what they need at the level they are working on...and so there they stay. Some will keep working at it, others will say "I'm not learning anything more ie. new" and quit. Some reach their potential cognitively and/or emotionally..ie. cup is full syndrome, knows better than the Sifu what their level of competency is and think they should learn more, but have not yet reached an adequate level of proficiency in either skill, attitude, cognitive understanding, spirit or any combination of these. These students either usually move on saying there is nothing more for me in that art/kwoon. Some will have a change in attitude and start progressing again and advancing to a new level all the while remaining in the same Kwoon. Some will have reached their maximum potential and do not have the ability to go further and so do not learn beyond that point. No sense in attempting to learn calculus when they cannot get past senior 2 math.

Students should not be so quick to blame the Sifu and/or art...but should first look into themselves.

[Wong Ying Home]

If you respect your old SiFu for the time he gave teaching you, the friendship he gave while teaching you , the support he gave while teaching you, in fact for the sincerity he gave while teaching you.

Even if he knows of this other sifu that you are now with

He deserves the same respect and thanks when leaving him, this should be done face to face.

SiFu for a day SiFu for life.

Have the guts and strength of character to meet him for some yum cha, and stay friends. There is nothing worse to a SiFu than the betrayal of a student who does not even have the common decency and human good manners to say thank you and good bye.

It is the lack of appreciation and acknowledgement thet is the betrayal not the leaving

[SevenStar]

If you respect your old SiFu for the time he gave teaching you, the friendship he gave while teaching you , the support he gave while teaching you, in fact for the sincerity he gave while teaching you.

Even if he knows of this other sifu that you are now with

He deserves the same respect and thanks when leaving him, this should be done face to face.

SiFu for a day SiFu for life.

Have the guts and strength of character to meet him for some yum cha, and stay friends. There is nothing worse to a SiFu than the betrayal of a student who does not even have the common decency and human good manners to say thank you and good bye.

It is the lack of appreciation and acknowledgement thet is the betrayal not the leaving

ya know, I'm not really sure how much this mentality applies any more. when students leave our school, for another or just because they don't feel like training anymore, I don't expect for an explanation, nor do I desire one. When I see them out, we talk as we would at the schol. Heck, when I left my kung fu school and went back to thai boxing and grappling, I had several reasons for leaving, none of which I ever discussed with the sifu. When we see eachother now, we still talk, as we did when I was a student there.

[Chief Fox]

ya know, I'm not really sure how much this mentality applies any more. when students leave our school, for another or just because they don't feel like training anymore, I don't expect for an explanation, nor do I desire one. When I see them out, we talk as we would at the schol. Heck, when I left my kung fu school and went back to thai boxing and grappling, I had several reasons for leaving, none of which I ever discussed with the sifu. When we see eachother now, we still talk, as we did when I was a student there.
I agree. After all, I was paying him and I came to the conclusion that the training that I was getting wasn't worth the money so I left.

I tried to call him. I left a message telling him that I was sorry that I left class the way I did. I told him that I've been a little frustrated lately and left my work and home numbers if he wanted to talk. That was three days ago and no return call yet. So he's either really ticked off at me and doesn't want to talk, doesn't care that I'm gone and doesn't want to talk, or didn't check his messages and doesn't even know that I'm gone.

Either way, I'm totally convinced that I made the right decision. I've thought that maybe I'll just take some time off but right now i'm thinking that there's no way that I'll ever go back.

For those of you talking about respect. Understand that I do respect the man for his knowledge of kung fu and his work ethic. I just got to a point to where I needed more of something that he can't provide. Plain and simple.

[Oso]

ya know, I'm not really sure how much this mentality applies any more. when students leave our school, for another or just because they don't feel like training anymore, I don't expect for an explanation, nor do I desire one. When I see them out, we talk as we would at the schol. Heck, when I left my kung fu school and went back to thai boxing and grappling, I had several reasons for leaving, none of which I ever discussed with the sifu. When we see eachother now, we still talk, as we did when I was a student there.

maybe not. but there should be some common courtesy.

the relationship between student/teacher and athlete/coach goes beyond a normal relationship, imo. maybe not for a short term student but if the relationship has been there for a while then the departing student/athlete should at least say 'hey, I'm outta here' and not just fade out.

the flipside is true as well...I've heard several stories over the years of teachers just disappearing on there students.

and, from a business aspect, it's good to know why someone left...for good or bad.

[David Jamieson]

student / teacher has dynamics to itself as a realtionship like any other. I don't think that was the issue.

But nevertheless, what if you are friends first then you teach them?

See, it's not the same as someone coming to you for lessons that you never knew before. You will naturally treat that person with more mask than you would your friend who you also teach.

That's the nature of it.

Putting too much confucianism into the whole teacher/student thing can cause as many problems as it does bring order to a school. It works in that configuration well with children, but not a lot of adults are particularly mindful of teh finer points of chinese etiquette and the often military like structuring of a school heirarchy.

Many people laugh at the notion of it.

Just saying.

[Wong Ying Home]

In your initial post, you didnt say that you had tried calling etc. So obviously you had made efforts to be respectfull.

I did not say you did'nt respect your teacher, only that if you did then a phone call visit etc would be a good thing to do.

Courtesy, manners, sincerity are not bad qualities to have. Any sifu that I have ever trained with I have always thanked them for thier time regardless of my feeling of them.

You did the right thing on moving forward with looking to improve your skil, if the teacher did not have the deceny to contact you and acknolwedge yoru message phone cal, and then wish you well, then it is the teacher who has a problem with it not you.

When mixing with Chinese, it is never a bad thing to learn the manners ways and etiquette of the culture you are dealing with, it can open doors for you, and close them when you don't know what your doing

Good luck in your future training and may your journey always bring new information and enhanced learning to your skill :)

[Chief Fox]

Well my sifu called me back yesterday. This was the first time we spoke since I left class. I apologized several times for leaving and for the way I left. He said that he didn't mind.

He asked me, what would bring me back to the school? I talked about the recent changes to the school and all of the mixed material making me feel kinda scattered. I talked about my limited schedule. I talked a little about the fact that we do very little application work. I told him that I never cared about getting a black sash, that it has always been about quality for me.

He told me that I am not the only one who feels this way. Apparently there are several students that are frustrated with the school right now. Some over the past year have slowly disappeared and he said that he can see the frustration in peoples faces. He then went on to defend the new material and how much the new students were benefiting from it.

I told him that he knows a heck of alot more about kung fu then I ever could and for right now, I just needed to take a break. I said, maybe i would come back for tai chi in a month or so.

He told me to take as much time as i need and that he hopes I come back.

We pretty much left it at that. He's a good guy, he means well, I have no bad feelings towards him at all and I wish him all the luck but I don't think I'm going back. It's just time for me to move on.

Things change, people change so I won't say that I'll never go back but for now, I have to follow a different path.

Oh, and just to clarify, he's not Chinese. He's white, has a full time job and a family. He trys to maintain a kung fu school in his free time.

Thanks again for everyone's input on this situation. It has been extremely difficult for me to come to terms with.

[fa_jing]

wow, that went well. Usually Sifu's don't like to be left any more than a women or man likes to get dumped.

[David Jamieson]

wow, that went well. Usually Sifu's don't like to be left any more than a women or man likes to get dumped.


lol, so youve seen this before then. :p