The Way of The Slow Hands

[hen]

Good day everyone.

Performing the slow movements of the SLT form (at the begining).

Mind Vs Physical

What should be the main focus ?
What should one be thinking of ?
Slow movements but with energy focus at the wrist & elbow ?
Over energy focus could cause possible tension and vibation of the arm? (is this how it should be?)
Reduce physical focus and increase mind focus? Is there a right balance?

What is the meaning of doing the movements in such a slow pace. What is it suppose to achieve?

Just something I've been thinking of. Would appreciate feedbacks on how people see the slow movements.

Thanks
Hen

[Wu Wei Wu]

i think you are referring to saam bai faat section.

doing the slt slow trains good habits, particularly in relation to the placement of the elbow.

while it is important to practise the form in such a way when you first learn, once it becomes more ingrained, you may want to continue your practise of it at a moderate pace, rather than painfully slow.

[bcbernam777]

I must disagree with the last post, the first section of the Sui Lum Tao must be performed slowly nto only at the beginning but throughout the rest of your life, this first section is perfromed slowley to do two immediate things in relation to the stance :

a) lay out the foundation of the proper structure and how that is related to the YJKYM

b) allow the practicioner to further develop their SLT energy (again related with the YJKYM), like any other aspect of training there is no ende to this development, which is only to be achieved by performing the first section slowly and dillegently. Yip Man even in his advanced years would also perform the SLT in this way.

The main focus in the SLT is the stance and training its energy, hands are relativly unimportant, so therefoe in focusing on the stance there are several aspects to look at including, energy, structure, concepts, and lastly techniques. Focus on using your stance to resist your own hands, and using the correct structural componants.

The energy focus is in the stance, this is the recieving energy in Wing Chun, not the hands, if the focus of energy is on the hands you will find that yur centre of gravity is more eacily disrupted, the hands are simply structual placements supported by the stance via the SLT energy.

"Reduce physical focus and increase mind focus? Is there a right balance?"

It is mind focus we are learning, the Sui Lum Tao (little thought) is all about letting you mind do the job so that you can learn to fully relax and utilise the proper bio mechanics

[Tom Kagan]

The main purpose is to train your legs to be able to hold this particular static but somewhat dynamic position. Obviously, it takes a good deal of mind power to convince yourself to hold it properly for extended periods, still be aware that you are holding it, and still remain at ease. Thus, it also is primarily standing meditation.

The rest is something the ancestors thought up to give your hands something to do in the meantime. :D (Okay, there is a wee bit more to it than that. BUT NOT MUCH. ;) )

[Hendrik]

Good day everyone. ------

Good day.







Mind Vs Physical --------


Mind Physical integration.






What should be the main focus ?--------


Physical movement sits on top of mental flow.
mental flow sits on top of Awareness. and how is all of these integrate into unity?





What should one be thinking of ?------


Should one think or should one thinking no thoughts; but pay attention and aware ?





Slow movements but with energy focus at the wrist & elbow ?---------


Can imprison the awareness in one place and expect natural free flow?such as lock the bike's wheels and expect it to run?








Over energy focus could cause possible tension and vibation of the arm? (is this how it should be?)-------


what is an energy? is it something quantitatively and qualitatively define and monitor-able? or something one speculate without based?





Reduce physical focus and increase mind focus? Is there a right balance? -------


what is Reduce physical focus ?
what is increasing mind focus?
why not just aware? aware exist in both physical and mental realm and not have to worry about balancing mind/physical since awareness is the common denominator.



What is the meaning of doing the movements in such a slow pace. What is it suppose to achieve? --------


slow is a realtive term
Ask that guy/gal who teach you the set.






Just something I've been thinking of. Would appreciate feedbacks on how people see the slow movements. -------


it is about slow movements or well manage nature carefull movements?

[sihing]

Good day everyone.

Performing the slow movements of the SLT form (at the begining).

Mind Vs Physical

What should be the main focus ?
What should one be thinking of ?
Slow movements but with energy focus at the wrist & elbow ?
Over energy focus could cause possible tension and vibation of the arm? (is this how it should be?)
Reduce physical focus and increase mind focus? Is there a right balance?

What is the meaning of doing the movements in such a slow pace. What is it suppose to achieve?

Just something I've been thinking of. Would appreciate feedbacks on how people see the slow movements.

Thanks
Hen

I believe SLT is performed differently at different levels of understanding, e.g. a beginner is thinking and concentrating on different things than someone with more experience and wisdom with the form, IMO. This does not mean that the "advanced" practitioner moves beyond what the beginner is thinking about while doing the form, but IMO more is involved as one has time with the SLT.

Yes I do agree that the form provides the learner with the ability to sink or sit in their stance which in all essence is the root of all footwork. But I do not think the arm movements were just put in there to fill in the time spent learning how to sit. Sitting is something you can learn quickly if you practice hard enough (it shouldn't take years to learn how to sit is what I'm saying..), so while learning how to sit, one is also doing other things, which is multitasking, something that the Wing Chun practitioner has to learn if he/she is ever going to be able to use what it teaches effectively in a fight. Independent movement of the limbs, facing, spring like energy (Lat Sau Jik Chung), focus, breathing, relaxation, etc etc...There are tons of things to learn from the form, and doing at least the first part slowly is the beginning, so the learner can absorb slowly what the form has to teach them. Once the form is learned correctly, it is forgotten and done in a more natural way, as one should not IMO always concentrate on perfect "technical" movement when they already know they have the mechanics behind it.

James

[Liddel]

I agree with James in the fact that the purpose would change as your competency improves.

The new student should be thinking about the position of all the hands and the legs, and very importanly the bridge touch points as pointed out by thier Sifu.

I have to say the idea that SLT is 'just' to train YJKYM or that it is the 'main' purpose and the hands are there for something to do, is rediculous to me :rolleyes: .

IMHO SLT trains the new student to make the hand actions familiar and natural. (because most of the actions are never used in a humans every day life)

It teaches them to be soft so as to add force later.
(Because you can learn to add force easier than learning to take it away IMO.)

It more importantly teaches them position, like not having flying elbows and leaving space between elbow and body.

It teaches the relationship between Root and hand actions but not horse.
I say this because hand actions in SLT are locked off from the horse making every action from the upperbody I.E no stepping / turning force applied to the actions just root support. Almost the same but not quite IMO.

I believe that step is in CK where you add the horse (turning and stepping) to hand actions for combined finished actions.

When you become familiar with the actions then you can apply the right forces.
using the elbow power for actions like Fut Sao, utilising wrist power in Huen Sao and punching, giving snap and sharpness to actions within the form etc etc.

Ponder this - if you can make your SLT actions 'live' like i mention, meaning your
Bong has a spring to it, tan has torque, Jut / Jum are sharp from your inch power.
If you can make these actions live with YJKYM during SLT imagine the increase when you learn CK and begin to add stepping and turning forces to these actions.....

Ho Kung Fu :eek:

Just MHO

[Matrix]

IMO, SLT should be done slowly, even "once it becomes more ingrained". At least some of the time, and on a regular basis. You can play the form with different emphasis, and speeds, but it always good to reinforce what has been learned to date.

The problem I have with speeding things up, and the idea that it is a sign of higher understanding, is that it reinforces the faulty thinking of people wanting to rush through the system to get to more advanced levels, or at least give that impression. In rushing, you can miss the whole point of the exercise.

Also, if you are learning the Dummy form, for example, the new concepts and ideas that you pick up there should be fed back in to your SLT. This is best done at a slower pace. I also think it is a good idea to play the other sections of SLT slowly from time to time, not just the first section.

Siu Lim Tao. It's what separates us from the animals. ;)

[sihing]

IMO, SLT should be done slowly, even "once it becomes more ingrained". At least some of the time, and on a regular basis. You can play the form with different emphasis, and speeds, but it always good to reinforce what has been learned to date.

The problem I have with speeding things up, and the idea that it is a sign of higher understanding, is that it reinforces the faulty thinking of people wanting to rush through the system to get to more advanced levels, or at least give that impression. In rushing, you can miss the whole point of the exercise.

Also, if you are learning the Dummy form, for example, the new concepts and ideas that you pick up there should be fed back in to your SLT. This is best done at a slower pace. I also think it is a good idea to play the other sections of SLT slowly from time to time, not just the first section.

Siu Lim Tao. It's what separates us from the animals. ;)

I agree Bill. In regards to SLT, I learned from two camps now, that the first part was to be done slowly, and delibertely, and then after that the explosiveness should come out. I always did it this way, with the second part much more explosive.

I also learned throught personal experience, mostly regarding the Chum Kiu and Bui Gee forms, that once in a while it was good to go throught them as fast as possible to see where your balance was and how your lower half coordinated with the upper half. Since fighting happens at a fast pace, movement or interruptions of movements happening fast, one should train like this more often when the mechanics are absorbed...

James

[Matrix]

I also learned throught personal experience, mostly regarding the Chum Kiu and Bui Gee forms, that once in a while it was good to go throught them as fast as possible to see where your balance was and how your lower half coordinated with the upper half. James,
Yes, that's the point IMO. You can play the form at different speeds and tempos, each variation has something to offer. I still believe that it is important to still do SLT slow, even when you feel you have the form "ingrained". In otherwords, slow is not just for beginners.

[Tom Kagan]

LOL. You guys can't take a joke.




My father is a doctor. I remember looking through his medical school yearbook and coming across a comic strip. There was a series of four panels with the same picture in each one. It was a picture of a hallway with a doctor walking by a woman with a very large belly. The doctor had a thought bubble over his head. Each of the four panels had a caption and the thought bubble was as follows:

1. The 1st year: "Hmmm... fat lady."

2. The 2nd year: "Wow! Pregnant lady."

3. The 3rd year: "Third trimester; approximately two weeks from due date."

4. The 4th year: "Hmmm... fat lady."


I'll be standing and meditatiing with some slow hand movement for 40 minutes or so on this. Then I'm going to bed. ;)

[hen]

thank you all.

Lots of ideas and tips to think about and experiment with.

I actually think the reason for my initial post is because whilst performing SLT slow, I seem to have more time to think i.e, my body/arm position, the movements, being relaxed etc. Having become more acustomed/comfortable/satisfied with these, I have freed my mind of focusing on these points and think what now ? What should the mind be thinking ? may be nothing??

But I've been to taught to focus on the elbow and wrist, and imagine as if there is a resistance/opposite force counteracting on my movement (ie, when i push out - imagine a force holding you back, and if you pull in - imagine a force pushing out against you. Thus, when I do this, it is done with (1) Physical - I tense a little at the wrist and albow (imagining a opposing force on my movements) (2) Mental - I use my mind and imagine this opposing force.

That is what I mean by mental v physical. Concentrating on the physical tension more gives you a realistic feel of a resistant force. Over doing it then my arm seems to shake/vibrate.

I just wandered if others think like I do ? If so, what balance does one take ?

If my totally on the wrong line, then what should i be thinking of ? if anything?


Hen

[Graham H]

I actually think the reason for my initial post is because whilst performing SLT slow, I seem to have more time to think i.e, my body/arm position, the movements, being relaxed etc.

Hen

Thats exactly it. In Ving Tsun there are certain actions that are performed 3 times within the forms. This means that they need to be practiced more. The 1st part of SLT is done slowly for long periods not only to train the stance but to train a new way of thinking and doing things in fighting. Our natural instinct in a fight is to stand up and swing. VT teaches us to do things that are not natural to us i.e. sit down in the stance, bring the elbow in, hit straight up the center, be relaxed and balanced. People have misinterpreted VT today. It is purely a simple fighting tool that has been changed and refined over the years to make more simple. It is not about developing energy in your fingertips or meditation as some say. It is about hitting quickly with power in order to finish the opponent and minimise the risk of damage to yourself. One skill that people do not pay enough attention on is hitting with power. This is the reason that there is punch at the start of the first 4 forms. That outlines the importance of it. The first thing in VT you learn is YJKYM. Why do think this is? So to answer you question on what to think about, you should be thinking about what your elbow is doing NOT the wrist and also about building new structures for fighting. Also you should not be thinking of resistance. You should let your actions come out naturally. In VT we are training Lat Sau Jik Chung. Everything should be going forward intentionally NOT pushing against resistance. If you train this way it teaches you to do things wrong and will also hamper you development of the punch.

GH

[bcbernam777]

thank you all.

Lots of ideas and tips to think about and experiment with.

I actually think the reason for my initial post is because whilst performing SLT slow, I seem to have more time to think i.e, my body/arm position, the movements, being relaxed etc. Having become more acustomed/comfortable/satisfied with these, I have freed my mind of focusing on these points and think what now ? What should the mind be thinking ? may be nothing??

But I've been to taught to focus on the elbow and wrist, and imagine as if there is a resistance/opposite force counteracting on my movement (ie, when i push out - imagine a force holding you back, and if you pull in - imagine a force pushing out against you. Thus, when I do this, it is done with (1) Physical - I tense a little at the wrist and albow (imagining a opposing force on my movements) (2) Mental - I use my mind and imagine this opposing force.

That is what I mean by mental v physical. Concentrating on the physical tension more gives you a realistic feel of a resistant force. Over doing it then my arm seems to shake/vibrate.

I just wandered if others think like I do ? If so, what balance does one take ?

If my totally on the wrong line, then what should i be thinking of ? if anything?


Hen

You must take that Idea of resistance but it is resistance in your stance not your hands as this will only creeate a tense energy in your hands, Your hands should be relaxed and soft, supple, tensing you hand means that your shoulder is rigid and this will throw off your cnetre of gravity, thus the meaning

"recieve what comes"

Recive the oponant into your stance, use the energy of the YJKYM to overcome his force.

[hen]

Hi Hendrik,

Just some thoughs on your reponses.


Good day everyone. ------

Good day.







Mind Vs Physical --------


Mind Physical integration.






What should be the main focus ?--------


Physical movement sits on top of mental flow.
mental flow sits on top of Awareness. and how is all of these integrate into unity?

Makes sense but to acheive intergration ----how? Calmness, relaxed state, awareness, balancing the mind that leads to the movements ?


What should one be thinking of ?------


Should one think or should one thinking no thoughts; but pay attention and aware ?

Could be, if the purpose was to acheive intergration of the mind and physical movements. BUT, it would seen that this contradicts WC's sensitivity and natural reflex reactions that gives WC with fast hands. For natural reflex reactions, there is not much time to think if any. Can reflex movements benefit from mind/movement integration?



Slow movements but with energy focus at the wrist & elbow ?---------


Can imprison the awareness in one place and expect natural free flow?such as lock the bike's wheels and expect it to run?

But Not necessarily, one can be totally focus on one job and still have awareness of the surrounding or other parts of the body or other movements. Focusing on certain areas do not mean you will lose awareness. Awareness is something small and subtle (so to speak). If one was playing a video game, one can still have awareness of the surrounding.





Over energy focus could cause possible tension and vibation of the arm? (is this how it should be?)-------


what is an energy? is it something quantitatively and qualitatively define and monitor-able? or something one speculate without based?

Energy in movements, chemical energy from our bodys being transferred to kinetic energy (movement). When our arms are poised to punch, we have potential energy stored ready to be converted into kinetic energy. The ability of converting this energy at very fast speed provides the power. But it could well be that this energy is very much in the mind when we perform SLT (slow movements). The potential energy is visuallised in the slow movement of the arm, and has the potential of being converted into moving energy.



Reduce physical focus and increase mind focus? Is there a right balance? -------


what is Reduce physical focus ?

Involving actual movement and small tension at the focussed areas.

what is increasing mind focus?

Using the mind to generate the movement, you actually think your mind is doing it, if you perform SLT as slow as you possibly could, you are very close to not moving and you mind trys to make the movement very slowly. It gives a feeling of that your mind is doing it, But it is very but in the mind. THat is why a ask the balance of the mind/physical.

why not just aware? aware exist in both physical and mental realm and not have to worry about balancing mind/physical since awareness is the common denominator.

Well, being aware does not pack a punch, does not seem sufficient. How does awareness help you intergrate possible mental and physical together to give unity. To me awareness is abit laid back. How should we think of it? It awareness can lead to unity (although it would seem weak to me), then learn to turn it on to amplified the significance of the unity.



What is the meaning of doing the movements in such a slow pace. What is it suppose to achieve? --------


slow is a realtive term

isn't most things in life

Ask that guy/gal who teach you the set.

No longer in contact. Will do if I have the opportunity.





Just something I've been thinking of. Would appreciate feedbacks on how people see the slow movements. -------


it is about slow movements or well manage nature carefull movements?

enough responses for now. hope I haven't bored you too much. Well of course, what i've written is my thinking and shouldn't be taken too seriously, because Iam most probably very wrong. Have a good day!!! happy thinking and training.



HEn

[Hendrik]

1, What should be the main focus ?--------


Physical movement sits on top of mental flow.
mental flow sits on top of Awareness. and how is all of these integrate into unity?

Makes sense but to acheive intergration ----how? Calmness, relaxed state, awareness, balancing the mind that leads to the movements ? -----



how? that's the reason one needs a sifu who has been there. otherwise mental speculation is not equal to knowing what it is.





2, What should one be thinking of ?------


Should one think or should one thinking no thoughts; but pay attention and aware ?




Could be, if the purpose was to acheive intergration of the mind and physical movements.
BUT, it would seen that this contradicts WC's sensitivity and natural reflex reactions that gives WC with fast hands.
For natural reflex reactions, there is not much time to think if any. Can reflex movements benefit from mind/movement integration?----------




Thus, i have heard,

There is a heaven and earth different living with mental speculation center and awareness center.

so, your speculation above might or might not applied about what is going on at integration state.



3,
Slow movements but with energy focus at the wrist & elbow ?---------


Can imprison the awareness in one place and expect natural free flow?such as lock the bike's wheels and expect it to run?


But Not necessarily, one can be totally focus on one job and still have awareness of the surrounding or other parts of the body or other movements. Focusing on certain areas do not mean you will lose awareness. Awareness is something small and subtle (so to speak). If one was playing a video game, one can still have awareness of the surrounding.




What is Awareness? is it really small and subtle? or it is big and everywhere, and it is the mental activity which blocking/masking it?

sure, ask those who got into car accident what happen.



4,

Over energy focus could cause possible tension and vibation of the arm? (is this how it should be?)-------


what is an energy? is it something quantitatively and qualitatively define and monitor-able? or something one speculate without based?



Energy in movements, chemical energy from our bodys being transferred to kinetic energy (movement). When our arms are poised to punch, we have potential energy stored ready to be converted into kinetic energy. The ability of converting this energy at very fast speed provides the power. But it could well be that this energy is very much in the mind when we perform SLT (slow movements). The potential energy is visuallised in the slow movement of the arm, and has the potential of being converted into moving energy.



you have a great intelllectualized description but does the reality work according to your intellectualized model?

[miguelitoe]

Why ask others the reasoning behind doing the first form slowly? There is no definative answer although many should come to similar conclusions. Don't question and just do, you will be happier with your findings. It's called little idea, but it should be your ideas and later, your theories and applications that blossom. Wing Chun forms teach individual movements and not applications. It teaches perfect positionings of limbs for that balance of strenth and efficiency. Finding meaning in these forms is up to the practitioner.

[hen]

Hi Hendrik,

Sorry for the late reply. Been rather busy lately.

Just wanna say thanks for your perspective on the subject. The path to understanding of WC and other MA is slow and continuous process....

Hen

[hen]

Hi Miguelitoe,

IMO, no one can cheat, the understanding is yours and yours alone. Whatever ideas/input you get from any SIFU or fellow WC friends will not always fit into your undersdtanding/believe. Even if a great masters teaches u this and that, you may not always catch their meaning and understand the truth behind it. How much you acheive is up to you. And the, forums are for discussions, right ? and exchanging views/ideas for those that share the same interest ?

It is not a game whereby you can win and lose and cheat!!! It is interesting to exchange views with WC brothers around the world...........

Hen

[Liddel]

I agree with some of the previous posts -
its slow when you begin VT to allow you (the Learner) to get proper position with the hands and in your limbs, focusing on the powers of each action at work...Shoulder, Elbow, Wrist. Not to mention correct YGKYM (horse) etc.

Sometimes ive noticed students dont pay attention to the differences between certain actions performed at different parts of the form.

I.E - Pak Sao in the first section uses the elbow power as its main source (in our SLT) however Pak Sao in the third section (following Bil Sao) uses more wrist and elbow power respectivly. Its the same action but applied with different forces at work, (what power to use) which is important to recognise and applies to many other actions.

I think once a student has these obsevations down along with positioning etc its good for them to realise the boundaries of actions and to visualise in thier mind when doing the form actions comming to thier body as they put actions out, although this would be dependent on the student it all really opens the door of AWARENESS of what your doing and why.

This is Just MO. :cool: