Question about contracts for martial arts classes [Archive]

Iron_Eagle_76

03-24-2006, 01:20 PM

This question goes out to instructors who use long term contracts for their students.
What is the purpose of this? I understand the profit magin, but is that simply it. I am asking because I instruct at a university so it is an advantage to have no overhead for utilities, rent, and such. I split the earnings with the university which are basically for pennies because in my area the economy is poor and the demand for MA is not high. I charge per month with no contracts, class is held three days per week, 2 1/2 hours two nights, two hours one night. I would never want to teach martial arts for a living because I believe it would taint the reasons I teach and study. I am not trying to stir the pot with those who use contracts I just would like to hear the main reason why they are used. ?? Thanks

Golden Tiger

03-24-2006, 01:29 PM

Although my main school uses them, I never did. I taught in a place where sometimes the students had money, sometimes they helped with cutting my grass.

In my opinion, contracts are a double edged sword. One the one hand, if I know that I am going to have to pay for X months regardless,, them I perhaps will show up, get hooked and stay forever. Sometimes that little incentive is all it takes. Plus, most get discounts for yearly or longer contracts. On the other hand, from a purely business stand point, once they sign, you get paid for X months. If you have a high drop out rate/sign up, you still can keep the lights on.

David Jamieson

03-24-2006, 01:37 PM

where i am trhere is a law that you may not bind anyone to a contract for a health and fitness club or program for any longerthan 1 year.

now if you have no overhead, you really don't need one.

teh purpose of having a contract is to ensure that if the person is going to make a commitment, then they are held to that commitment and the person offering the service can go ahead with that service without having to stress about whether or not they can continue to offer the service because people are lax in paying for it.

when i was in my former sifus school, payment of fees was always an issue with many of the students. They would often pay late or have to be reminded time and again to pay their fees. He used no contracts, but there were expectations. Frankly, too high a percentage of those students did not meet those commitments and then the whole cycle of 'bugging' them to pay their dang fees arises. Which sucks.

and if you are a person who gets a service and instruction and is always forgetting your fee or not making provisions to pay that fee and yet always show up and expect your lesson, then you suck too.:mad:

pay for your lessons you shirkers or don't complain when you're presented with a contract because there is no other way to get around your weasling out of your fees.

:p

GreenCloudCLF

03-24-2006, 01:45 PM

where i am trhere is a law that you may not bind anyone to a contract for a health and fitness club or program for any longerthan 1 year.

I just want to point out this is the case in many areas; but many MA schools choose to ignore it. Generally to have a contract of 1 year or longer you are supposed to post a bond with the state to cover the cost of memebrships if your doors close, to refund everyone. (This goes for paid in full memberships as well).

Iron_Eagle_76

03-24-2006, 01:55 PM

David Jamieson

03-24-2006, 02:03 PM

While your intentions may be noble, don't expect that from everyone else.

More often than not, people are takers and not givers. Being a taker is normal, being a giver takes real consideration, patience and effort.

People will treat you as you allow them to.

Be the door, not the doormat. :)

splinter

03-25-2006, 12:41 AM

It really depends on what you're after.
If you're looking to make a living as a MA instructor, I'd say that contracts are necessary, but otherwise, not really.

Contracts will generally increase the amount of time that a student sticks around (assuming they join up in the first place). If they sign the contract, they're either committed to learning from you, in which case the contract shouldn't be an issue, or if they're not entirely committed (for whatever reason), they might stick around figuring they'd might as well get the most of it, and realize the value later.

If the person signs the contract, and quits early anyway, it's some extra cash in your pocket, and you don't really lose anything...

Some might argue that this scenario is the reason you DON'T want contracts (because you feel guilty about taking someone's money and not giving anything back), and that it might frighten students away, but IMO, that's complete rubish...

If what you're teaching is good, and the service you provide is worth the $$ that you charge, the only reason the person would leave is because they changed their mind, and that's too bad. It's the nature of the business.

If a person makes a new years resolution to get in shape, and joins a gym, the gym makes them sign a contract because most people don't stick to their resolutions, and the gym wouldn't survive otherwise.

If you try to go without contracts, you might get a lot more students who sign up initially, but many of them will quit soon after, regardless of the quality of what you're teaching, because they see it as a run of the mill fitness/yoga/pilates class. The contract demonstrates to them that you're looking for a commitment from them as a student, not just as a customer.

It will save you from having to spend excessive amounts of time teaching basics to people who show up for a week, and then decide they prefer sitting on their couch (which is a wast of your time, and theirs).

Of course, if you're not looking to make a living as a MA instructor, you don't need the stability of a semi stable pay check from it, so it doesn't matter nearly as much. When money's not an issue, you can teach on a month to month basis, and with some luck, you'll eventually find some genuinely dedicated students once you've sorted through all the crappy ones...

Ok, I'm done rambling. Feel free to tear into my post where necessary.

Iron_Eagle_76

03-27-2006, 07:35 AM

Ok, I'm done rambling. Feel free to tear into my post where necessary.[/QUOTE]

Actuallly, splinter, you made some valid points. I do not teach for a living so I understand the need to generate more income, but contracts are still a practice I do not agree with. This is my opinion which in turn means no one cares other than me, but the point I was trying to make is that martial arts often times loses it's sense of meaning when it becomes a money making scheme. It is frustrating when you waste your time teaching basics to someone who quits two weeks later, but one thing I have learned in my years in martial arts is that this will always happen, contract or not. My instructor went through his record of students recently and did a count of total people who had ever taken class. Since he started teaching in 1977, he had nearly 1,700 students who had taken at least one class from him. Out of that 1,700, he has 14 black belts. This is a sample of how many true dedicated students you are likely to get. I got way off subject, here is the point. I hope that the instructors who teach for a living and use contracts still give quality instruction, that is the main point. But inadequate instruction, charging hundreds of dollars for a belt test, and my absolute favorite, having a seperate program to get a black belt and charging an outrageous price for it are works of someone who cares only about money, period. Someone mentioned that is people's nature or something about not everyone teaches simply for the love of martial arts. Ask yourself this, when you started in martial arts, was your goal to make money off ignorant people who at one time were just like you?

Oso

03-27-2006, 08:50 AM

I'm having to reconsider this issue myself.

I just had 4 drops last month and, in all cases, was fed a line of bs regarding why.

one guy even came back in and picked up his fei yu's before class and said he'd be back later for class.

One option I'm looking at is not contracts but doing all payments by eft. They can get out of it but it takes 60 days for them to do so. that way you can still have some residual income if they do bail.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 09:08 AM

splinter

03-27-2006, 09:50 AM

Well, you can put into the contract all kinds of reasonable reasons that the student should be able to get out of the agreement, ie. they move away, get seriously injured, or have some other major change in their lives, or put it right into the contract that they can get out of it with 30 or 60 or whatever days notice.

The point is that if you don't use contracts, you run a much higher risk of being a starving martial artist.

Oh, and using contracts is a sign that you're in it for the money, not a sign that you're in it ONLY for the money. There's a big difference.

David Jamieson

03-27-2006, 10:02 AM

risk assumption must be 50/50 to be fair.

Why should teh school have to take 100% of the risk and the person who wants that schools services take no risk?

That is a bad business model moreso than residual payments still coming in because the student refuses to honour their contract.

try not paying your electric bill because you don't feel like it anymore.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 10:05 AM

try not paying your electric bill because you don't feel like it anymore.

If I for some reason decided that I didn't want to use elcetricity any more, I wouldn't be made to continue paying for it, would I?

David Jamieson

03-27-2006, 10:14 AM

If I for some reason decided that I didn't want to use elcetricity any more, I wouldn't be made to continue paying for it, would I?

You would for the term of the contract you are under. Same as any utility.

Like a cancelled lease on a car, or a mortage you want to get rid of, there are penalties, financially speaking in order to get out of just about any contract.

all Im saying is that the student must take responsibility for their contract that they have signed. Just as much as they must take responsibility for their learning.

If people have problems with contracts, they are welcome to move on to somewhere else that doesn't have them.

Let me tell you the odds of good business survivability without contracts, well...it's pretty much less than 5%.

Now if you're learninig out of some guys basement, who cares, that's not really a business, that just an exchange or informal setting, but if the teacher must assume all costs for the training hall and it's utilities, then like any business that cost is passed on to the consumer for the use of the facilities. The contract generally will deal with this issue forst and foremost and you must essentially agree to uphold your share of the facilities you use and you must pay for the time spent teaching you.

anyway, don't like contracts? Don't go to a school that has them. Bear in mind that contracts are often a necessary tool for any business to ensure the survivability of the business.

a contract doesn't mean your being screwed over, it is covering the nut for all people involved.

who pays the insurance that covers your ass if you injure yourself?

read the contract that's all, if you're not satisfied, then don't sign it, plain and simple.

too many people want a free lunch. There is no such thing.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 10:21 AM

don't like contracts? Don't go to a school that has them.

I don't, and I never will.

Oso

03-27-2006, 11:11 AM

So you'd like to continue charging people after they have left your school? Great business plan. :rolleyes:

How dare they have the nerve to stop attending classes.

telling me they are going to stop for whatever reason is one thing.

lying is another. as I said, they stopped coming and were bs'ing me about when and why.

I've got a ton of conflict over the way I would like to teach and run a school versus what it is apparently going to take for me to do it profitably which is to employ the same methods for retention as gyms/health clubs.

I have to make a change for the better soon or I will have to shut down.

too many people want a free lunch. There is no such thing.too many people want a free lunch.

"TANSTAAFL"

;)

lkfmdc

03-27-2006, 11:45 AM

People should really try and pretend they are adults, capable of making decisions and taking responsibility for their decisions.... since, sadly, a percentage of the population is competely incapable of doing that, we have contracts...

I offer both contracts and open ended. If you are willing to make a committment to being around for a set period of time (say a year) I respond by giving you a discount....

So, say you sign up for a year, you are paying $50 LESS per month than the guy who isn't willing to make a committment.... but after 6 months you decide you don't want to continue?? Well, you entered into a contract, it's your responsibility to compete the terms... ask your landlord to forgive you since you don't want to make a committment to him, or ask your car lease to be forgiven, see what they say

Hey, how about you pay me the $300 difference that I would have made if you had signed up for the open ended? NO, inevitiably they will want it all, they didn't want to pay the full price, but they don't want to hold to the agreement

Why have contracts? Well, even with open ended people try to screw you... I had a guy cancel, fine, he was on an open ended... he then tried to charge back 3 months, because he didn't come that often... jerk :rolleyes:

Really, honestly, if you aren't willing to make any committment to your school, you should find a school where classes are only held when the instructor feels like it, there is no equipment, no staff, he teaches you what he feels like... may move tomorow on you with no notice...

Funny how people expect you to teach 25 classes a week, have a nice space, have a full time staff, etc but want you to charge them $20 per month and want to come and go as they please...

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 12:29 PM

I offer both contracts and open ended. If you are willing to make a committment to being around for a set period of time (say a year) I respond by giving you a discount....

That sounds fair to me.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 12:35 PM

Funny how people expect you to teach 25 classes a week, have a nice space, have a full time staff, etc but want you to charge them $20 per month and want to come and go as they please...

Funny how some schools want to run like a business (contracts) but then complain about the fact that they have to assume all the risk.

Oso

03-27-2006, 12:43 PM

so, exactly how does your teacher (or you) do it?

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 12:46 PM

so, exactly how does your teacher (or you) do it?

I pay every month.

Iron_Eagle_76

03-27-2006, 12:52 PM

Offering open ended or a contract is fair, because the person does still have the choice. Most gyms and health clubs offer this as a choice, big difference in that and being forced to sign a contract as the only way for membership. But regardless it is not fair to the person trying out martial arts to be forced to sign a contract even if it is not want you want. Think about this, you have someone who is a seasoned martial artist moves to your area and is looking for a place to train. Should he/she have to sign a contract immediately without judging the quality of the training. My direction here is for the schools who have a shut door policy until you sign the contract and will not let you have a free class or watch the class. These people have something to hide. I for one when never sign any kind of contract until I got a chance to try it out. For those of you talking about the landlord and car lease examples, you are right, but the landlord also shows you the apartment and the car you get to test drive.

lkfmdc

03-27-2006, 01:00 PM

Funny how some schools want to run like a business (contracts) but then complain about the fact that they have to assume all the risk.

It seems you are missing the point entirely, I run a professional school and offer more than 95% of my competition, in order to run that way, I require either a contract or a more substantial payment per month open ended...

MOST people accept that, there are always a few who don't, they are probably the same guys who log onto the internet to complain every place they want to train in is too expensive :rolleyes:

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 01:13 PM

It seems you are missing the point entirely, I run a professional school and offer more than 95% of my competition, in order to run that way, I require either a contract or a more substantial payment per month open ended...:

And I said that seems quite fair to me.

You also went on to say this:
"Really, honestly, if you aren't willing to make any committment to your school, you should find a school where classes are only held when the instructor feels like it, there is no equipment, no staff, he teaches you what he feels like... may move tomorow on you with no notice...

Funny how people expect you to teach 25 classes a week, have a nice space, have a full time staff, etc but want you to charge them $20 per month and want to come and go as they please..."

That's the part of your post I was responding to with what you quoted.

there are always a few who don't, they are probably the same guys who log onto the internet to complain every place they want to train in is too expensive :rolleyes:

That's not me so I don't know who that's directed at.

Oso

03-27-2006, 01:24 PM

the point being, Jun Fan, that you're only offering negative criticism.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 01:28 PM

the point being, Jun Fan, that you're only offering negative criticism.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a jerk here, but I can't think of anything positive to say about contracts. I have very strong opinions about this subject.

Everyone is obviously welcome to run their schools any way they wish, and as long as their students are happy with it that's all that matters.

Oso

03-27-2006, 02:08 PM

and I haven't had anything positive to say about contracts either for the last 5 years. However, I'm getting tired of watching crap ass schools in town be financially succesfull but not actually teach any good martial skill.

you've been shown different points of view by at least one person here that obvioiusly has the best interest of his students at heart...yet still offers contracts.

so, the conflict for me is how to do both.

If I had contracts on the 4 people that bailed on me last month I wouldn't be sweating April rent.

so, as I said in the beginning...I'm rethinking the situation and seeing exactly what options there are out there.

lkfmdc

03-27-2006, 02:31 PM

isn't it sad that a school owner has to "sweat" his monthly RENT? :eek:

someone who is running classes, teaching people, helping people and he's worried not about his profit margin, but about whether he can keep his doors open?

I really defy anyone to show me a successful school that doesn't use contracts and doesn't use EFT biling....

splinter

03-27-2006, 03:02 PM

Offering open ended or a contract is fair, because the person does still have the choice. Most gyms and health clubs offer this as a choice, big difference in that and being forced to sign a contract as the only way for membership.

That's right. And if you buy a cell phone, you can either sign a contract for a fixed local rate, or pay per call. You make your choice based on how often you plan on using the phone.

Similarly, most gyms will let you buy a day pass, but if you use the facilities often enough, that gets expensive.

But regardless it is not fair to the person trying out martial arts to be forced to sign a contract even if it is not want you want. Think about this, you have someone who is a seasoned martial artist moves to your area and is looking for a place to train. Should he/she have to sign a contract immediately without judging the quality of the training. My direction here is for the schools who have a shut door policy until you sign the contract and will not let you have a free class or watch the class. These people have something to hide. I for one when never sign any kind of contract until I got a chance to try it out. For those of you talking about the landlord and car lease examples, you are right, but the landlord also shows you the apartment and the car you get to test drive.

Most gyms will show you around the facilities so that you know what you're getting into.

A reasonable MA school will let you watch / try a class for free or a nominal fee before asking you to sign the contract. Some might even give you a much shorter term contract (at a higher price per month) to give you more time to make up your mind. If they don't, you're absolutely right. You'd have to be an idiot to get into a financial agreement when you don't know what you're getting in return.

It's the nature of the service industry. The longer you commit, the less risk to the business, and so they can afford to charge you less.

Lama Pai Sifu

03-27-2006, 03:21 PM

Why is everyone getting their panties in a bunch? No one is FORCING anyone to sign a contract. Why do people use that phrase?

Every school has different prices and different terms. Join where you like. If a school wants to use agreements (contracts), then good for them. If not, equally as good.

Don't act like a moron and bash people for their systems, beliefs or practices. I don't even believe that this question was directed at students of schools, but at school owners,...am I wrong? (this is where the author of the thread jumps in and agrees with me!) I might be wrong..lol :)

No, you don't need a contract for electricity, and you don't need one for all cell phones, and yes, you won't get a mortgage, a car or a credit card without one. Or college, private school or lots of other things on credit for that matter. And if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle. What's the point?

If you don't like 'em, good for you. You've expressed your opinion. You have been heard and acknowledged. Now...let's try to solve this man's quandry!

Becca

03-27-2006, 03:42 PM

A quality instructor should not need gimmicks to keep students, to me, it just seems like a rip off. Students will always come and go but then again, this is why I teach for the love of martial arts and helping others experience it rather than monetary value.
My sifu uses contracts, but I have never felt any more ripped off that I do with a phone contract. Let's face it, this is a sue happy culture we live in. The contract gives the teacher an out if he has a spong. This type of person can and will sue for discrimination if they are asked to leave. But if they don't abide by the contract... It is also a promise to follow the rules. It gives Sifu a way to weed out those undesirables who are only there to learn how to bully more effectively, ect...:)

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 05:44 PM

However, I'm getting tired of watching crap ass schools in town be financially succesfull but not actually teach any good martial skill.

On this we certainly agree.

Jun Fan

03-27-2006, 05:47 PM

I really defy anyone to show me a successful school that doesn't use contracts and doesn't use EFT biling....

My school. They don't discuss finances with me, but it's apparent that they aren't hurting for money. There are no contracts or automatic billing.

Becca

03-27-2006, 06:29 PM

Oh, and using contracts is a sign that you're in it for the money, not a sign that you're in it ONLY for the money. There's a big difference.
:) Agreed. I have no problem helping my Sifu so's he doesn't need to have any other job but training me, my kids, my fellow students, and most imporantly, himself. That's all he does. teach and train. Without the contracts, he wouldn't be able to do that.

Becca

03-27-2006, 06:39 PM

... Think about this, you have someone who is a seasoned martial artist moves to your area and is looking for a place to train. Should he/she have to sign a contract immediately without judging the quality of the training. My direction here is for the schools who have a shut door policy until you sign the contract and will not let you have a free class or watch the class. These people have something to hide...
I, for one, have never seen one like that. I have visited schools were I had to sign a privacy form before being allowed to watch a class, but that just makes sence. There's alot of folks out there with nothing against using a school or teacher's name in vain in order to add some credability, and being able to describe how the classes are conducted is a good way to flamboozle the anwary. The privacy form makes it possible to prosicute said phoney.

Iron_Eagle_76

03-28-2006, 11:37 AM

The main point to this thread was to get a sample of how others felt in regards to contracts. Most schools, not all, I have experienced who have contracts tend to focus more on taking your money than giving you quality training. Before anyone starts going postal, I said most, not all. There is nothing wrong with making a profit because no business can exist without one but when profit takes precedent over training it becomes a problem. I do not believe in contracts, never have, never will and will never require my students to sign a contract, but as I said, I do not teach for a living. I hold down a full time job and teach in the evenings for my benefit as much as my students. That being said, I understand the need to profit and keep a school open, so I am not passing any judgement on those who use contracts. If you run a school with quality training and the students accepts this contract, it is a free country and more power to you both. It is more the money generators or "McDojos" I am critisizing. I wanted to make clear what the point of the initial statement was.