Yang Family Enigma - The forgotten side

[Francesco]

Hi everyone,

In numerous articles, the names can be found of the respective sons of Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou. They were more or less of the same age as Yang Cheng Fu, however, apart from their names, nothing else can be found. At least not by me.

Does anybody know if they practised the family art as well? If so, why are they almost unknown to the public?

Thanks!


Francesco

[splinter]

Check out this article for one version of the Yang style history.

The second half addresses your question to a certain extent...

http://www.warriorspirit.ca/taichiarticle.html

[Repulsive Monkey]

Please Walter Joyce you've made several blaring mistakes here.

It's Yabg Sau Chung who has those disciples, and then to correct that his first disciple Ip Tai Tak died nearly two years ago and the third less often cited disciple is Chu King Hung.

This is primary school info.

Pah!

[Francesco]

The article is confusing:

- Yang Lu Chan lived 400 years ago? I don't think so!
- Yang Cheng Fu made it only to beginners' level? A very bold statement!
- The name of the "wonder teacher" of Master "Tommy" Cheng Kay-Ying remains unknown. Gives me the feeling of somebody that invents a lineage in order to make a lot of money!

Splinter: do you train with this Master Tommy?

Thanks,

Francesco

[chud]

In numerous articles, the names can be found of the respective sons of Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou. They were more or less of the same age as Yang Cheng Fu, however, apart from their names, nothing else can be found. At least not by me.

Does anybody know if they practised the family art as well? If so, why are they almost unknown to the public?



Hi Francesco, I certainly understand your question because it seems like "Yang Style" is almost universally associated with Yang Chengfu's lineage.
My Sifu's Sifu studied directly with Yang Shao-Hou (Yang Chengfu's older brother) and Yang Jianhou (their father) and learned Yang Imperial from them which is the Yang style prior to Yang Chengfu's modifications as it was taught to the Imperial Guard of China. As to why it is not as well known, remember that Yang Luchan (the grandfather of Yang Chengfu) learned Chen style initially in secret by observing the Chen family before he was formally taken in as a student. Once he developed Yang style he taught it primarily to his family and the Imperial Guard of China (who wanted to learn from "Yang the Invincible"). I suspect that most of the people who studied the early Yang style kept the art in their families, which is not unusual among Chinese. Then when most of the Yang family had passed away and Yang Chengfu (who was the youngest) became the heir to the style, he modified the form, wrote a book, and taught to a wider audience. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it explains why his lineage is more well known.

[yangyang]

Check out this article for one version of the Yang style history.

The second half addresses your question to a certain extent...

http://www.warriorspirit.ca/taichiarticle.html

This article is such a piece of fiction and bull**** it's not even worth the time to read it!!! This is just another school who thinks they've got the real **** and in reality they got nothing but ****! What a crock of lies! These people obviously no nothing about Yang Cheng Fu and his tremendous skill, as well as his two oldest sons Yang Sau Chung and Yang Zhen Ji.

[chud]

Check out this article for one version of the Yang style history.

The second half addresses your question to a certain extent...

http://www.warriorspirit.ca/taichiarticle.html

That article seems to imply that the slow form is B.S. and that there is a fast form which is authentic. In actuality, there is a slow form AND a fast form (which is lesser known). The article is pushing the fast form to the exclusion of the slow form, which is wrong. I don't buy his statements about Yang Shou-Hou being suicidal either. All the stories I have heard about Yang Shao-Hou indicate that he was a legendary fighter who eventually died of natural causes.

[yangyang]

Chud, you are so right. Yang Cheng Fu and his sons (except one) knew a fast form (or sets performed fast), and slow forms as well as various frames to practice them in. For people in the know, this is fact! Whoever says differently really doesn't know what their talking about.

The people who usually trash Yang Cheng Fu on the Internet and elsewhere usually have an agenda of some type... like... my teacher learned the real knowledge, not the Cheng Fu knowledge..... or.... Yang Chengfu only studied for a couple of years, so how can he be highly skilled, but my teacher and his sifu are best because they learned such and such, and more and more crap - and on and on it goes..... You see what I mean? It's all nonsense and utter rubbish.

Here are some points that are closer to the truth:
In fact, there were many witnesses to Yang Chengfu's prowess and skills. If some don't buy those accounts, that's their problem. Students, patrons, and other miscellaneous people in this early century saw it first hand. What that article and it's alumni are saying is just the same old rehashed uninformed opinion about someone they never met. It's always my teachers teacher said so and so.... blah, blah, blah!! Most of this talk was and is based on jealousy, greed, and the need to feel special and important. The truth of the matter is YCF had a minimum of 25 years actual experience in practicing Tai Chi Chuan before he died. There was a small period of time when he left home, but in the end it came to about 25 years or more. Hell, even his son Yang Sau Chung (the oldest and most powerful of his sons) had 13 years or so of DIRECT training from Yang Chengfu and that is FACT. So.... logically, if Yang Sau Chung had 13 years direct training with his father, and his father had anywhere from 12 to 15 years training before that, that would prove the amount of time the man was involved with TCC (I may be off a couple of years or so). Now, some could say.. well, just because he practiced all that time doesn't mean he was any good - all i can say to that is ............ LOL.

[chud]

In fact, there were many witnesses to Yang Chengfu's prowess and skills. If some don't buy those accounts, that's their problem. Students, patrons, and other miscellaneous people in this early century saw it first hand.

That's right Yangyang. Even though I am not Yang Chengfu lineage, my sifu's sifu knew YCF and saw him do some amazing things. Also, YCF had the benefit as heir to the family system of inheriting all of his family's written notes on Taijiquan. He definitely had serious skills and knowledge by anyone's standards.

[splinter]

Hey, I'm not vouching for the historical accuracy of the article... I just said it was ONE version of the history..... I was a little curious about what the reactions would be like though.

[Francesco]

Hi Guys,

I actually started this thread, as I was (am) curious about respectively Yang Zhao Pen, son of Pan Hou, Who lived from 1872-1930 and Yang Zhen Sheng, son of Shao Hou, who lived from 1878-1939.

These contemporaries of Yang Cheng Fu (probably) were taught extensively in their fathers' art and thus must have been accomplished masters. Yet all the attention has always been focussed on Yang Cheng Fu!

Again, does anybody have any info on this?

Thanks,


Francesco
(I practice Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan from the lineage of Yang Sau Chung)

[Francesco]

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for the kind suggestion. However, I already tried it

See: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000110.html

Even on the Yang Family website, I did not even get 1 reply!


Francesco

[yangyang]

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for the kind suggestion. However, I already tried it

See: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000110.html

Even on the Yang Family website, I did not even get 1 reply!
Francesco

Francesco, that's probably because that's Yang Zhen Duo's website. He is the "figure head" for the Yang family, but he really had very very little connection with his father, his uncles, and his older brothers. His training was mainly from the Fu's and other miscellaneous players. The Yang family was split apart and they didn't all get to share "the knowledge."

[Walter Joyce]

Please Walter Joyce you've made several blaring mistakes here.

It's Yang Sau Chung who has those disciples, and then to correct that his first disciple Ip Tai Tak died nearly two years ago and the third less often cited disciple is Chu King Hung.

This is primary school info.

Pah!

I removed my post because you are correct. I posted hastily and didn't read the original post correctly.

Having said that, while I have made attempts to engage in the study of lineage, I find the area boring and of little practical use.

Pah indeed.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


The people who usually trash Yang Cheng Fu on the Internet and elsewhere usually have an agenda of some type... like... my teacher learned the real knowledge, not the Cheng Fu knowledge..... or.... Yang Chengfu only studied for a couple of years, so how can he be highly skilled, but my teacher and his sifu are best because they learned such and such, and more and more crap - and on and on it goes..... You see what I mean? It's all nonsense and utter rubbish.

Every art has this stuff. Petty politics! I agree with you!

What is Taiji anyhow?

How many people all over the world do Taiji and never Sink The Chi? Millions!

So, if anyone wants to analyze the quality of someones Taiji then all they need to do is ask them what it cultivates, can they reproduce it and if they can demo it!

Peng is Core!

Without the Peng its like Yi Chuan without the Hun Yun. Do you cultivate your body so that you build the Peng which in turn allows you to have all those nice goodies you read so much about like Ting Jing etc or not?

Last week I had a discussion with a 20 year Yang Taiji guy who repeated the common Yang family protocol about Chen Man Cheng. He told me:

Unless you do the 108 you are not doing Taij!

I aksed him to describe the process his body went thru during the cutlivation and to describe his internal make/chi he has achieved from all that 108 training? I feel the tingling here and there!

Typical!

Funny thing is we were at Fong Ha's seminar and Fong Ha is the perfect example. Did Taiji for a long long time. Asked his teachers how come he cant Fajing and they told him do the form more. :eek: Tranlsation! The sifu was not going to tell him how to Cultivate the Puppet String/Equilibrium base Peng art. Lau Sing in NY is another perfect example. Trained with the Yang family but neither him nor Fong Ha got much until they started training Standing as the base. Lau sifu mentioned that in Yang family the Wuji is the most neglected training.

Cai Song Feng in Shanghai is the King of Push Hands. What does his Yang Taiji consist of:

Wuji Zhuang
Yin Yang Qi Gong
Grasp Birds Tail
Push Hands

Here is a clip of Chen Man Cheng doing Fajin. Perhaps those who want to insult Yang Cheng Fu or other achievers can send in a clip of themsleves, classmates or their Sifu's demonstrating the Fajing!


http://www.omogenia.com/~steve/cheng1_ISDN.mov


If you cant then its all talk or Sifu Says!


BTW: Fong Ha when asked about CMC said this:

Anyone who talks bad about him is just jealous! He taught a number of qualified instructors, wrote good books and promoted Taiji for all to benefit from.


Look forward to seeing the clips!


Peace,

[yangyang]

Right on Jim. I'm trying to do more standing also. BTW, that CMC clip is the best clip I've ever seen of him. Good peng energy!!!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Thanks!

Yes! That clip is awesome! My sifu gave me the Link a while back but I watch it all the time! I have tried to play devils advocate with it but still cant say anything other than its great!

Even if the guy pushed off him there is absolutely NO WAY anyone will pick up that kind of momentum unless something projected him with great Shock/Force.

If anyone thinks I am wrong about the Push Off possibility being not accurate then please show us a demo producing the same results.

The "Forgotten Side" of Yang family art is the Basic GONG! Nothing more, Nothing less. :)

Respect to those who have cultivated the Taiji enigine!!


Peace,

[Walter Joyce]

Jim,

Nice posts.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Walter!


Thanks!

:)


Peace,

[johnv]

I'm seriously hoping NOT to start a flame war by saying this, so please don't take this the wrong way. My goal is not to insult anybody or their style. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't study Yang style at all - whether Yang Cheng Fu or another version. It seems to me that some people say that YCF attained only a "beginner's level" (and I've heard this elsewhere, too, not just from the article posted a while back). Others say that he had demonstrated his great skill and there were witnesses to see it.

I don't see why both of these can't be true at the same time. After all, whether someone's skill is a "beginner" is all relative. It is possible that YCF learned, let's say 30% of the total style (I'm just making this up as an example). To the non-trained and common people, he could easily seem to have incredible skill. But to someone who had completed the entire style and mastered it, he could seem like a beginner. I know that some YCF practitioners may not like this, as it implies that their lineage isn't as great as it could have been, but honestly - every master in every single lineage could have been better. But even so, most were good enough and that's what counts in the end, right?

[yangyang]

I'm seriously hoping NOT to start a flame war by saying this, so please don't take this the wrong way. My goal is not to insult anybody or their style. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't study Yang style at all - whether Yang Cheng Fu or another version. It seems to me that some people say that YCF attained only a "beginner's level" (and I've heard this elsewhere, too, not just from the article posted a while back). Others say that he had demonstrated his great skill and there were witnesses to see it.

I don't see why both of these can't be true at the same time. After all, whether someone's skill is a "beginner" is all relative. It is possible that YCF learned, let's say 30% of the total style (I'm just making this up as an example). To the non-trained and common people, he could easily seem to have incredible skill. But to someone who had completed the entire style and mastered it, he could seem like a beginner. I know that some YCF practitioners may not like this, as it implies that their lineage isn't as great as it could have been, but honestly - every master in every single lineage could have been better. But even so, most were good enough and that's what counts in the end, right?

Wrong!! Yang Cheng Fu was no beginner. I think 25 years or more of practice (especially having access to knowledge that most don't) makes ChengFu much more than a beginner, or even an intermediate. He may not have had the skill his grandfather possessed, but I doubt many in this world had that kind of skill (especially today). Looking at Jim's clip of Cheng Man Ching, you can tell that CMC was no slouch, and many today aren't even close to his level. So, with that said, CMC himself has stated in his own books that he only got 25% of Yang Cheng Fu's skill level. Think about that!! 25% of YCF's skill level!!! That all I need to know. Yang Cheng Fu was a very very powerful TCC martial artist. Those who don't believe it are just blowing in the wind......

JohnV, you sound just like all the rest of the Yang Cheng Fu my sifu-is-better-than-yours jealousy club. All talk, and absolutely nothing at all to back it up. And I mean nothing at all to back it up!! When you can get even remotely close to CMC's skill level, THEN "Maybe" you could possibly be qualified to criticise!! Until then, keep playing the Internet-no-proof-misinformation game.

[johnv]

Did you just completely misinterpret my post?! I don't practice Yang style and neither does my teacher, so there is no issue of whether I have "the real one" or not. I don't have any of them. I have no vested interest in whether YCF was a beginner or not. I didn't offer proof because I presented a possible scenario where I could see how both sides could be right, not a fact.

And the reality is that none of us knows how good he reallyl was, because none of us ever saw him do anything. Years of experience is no guarantee - I know people that have trained for over 30 years that are no good, and ones that have trained for far less that are fantastic. Eye-witness accounts depend on the prejudices and skill-level of the witness, which we don't know.

I'm not saying that YCF was a beginner, nor am I saying he was great. What I'm saying is that we just can't know for sure. And since we don't know for sure, I presented a possible scenario where the various stories about him fit together. Is my scenario right? Who knows - it's just a possibility, that's all. But I think it's a stretch to say that the scenario I presented is absolutely impossible without having been there.

[Brad]

Yang Cheng Fu was pretty famous back in the day, and while fame doesn't necesarilly = skill, it's my understanding that someone just couldn't have had the sort of standing he had in the martial arts community during that time period without proving himself beyond a "beginer" level. Maybe someone with more knowledge of what things were like back then in China could refute (or afirm) my belief (I'm hardly an expert on Chinese martial arts history and could be wrong)?

[johnv]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but was he famous among other martial artists, or famous among the general populace? It's kind of hard from today's point of view to determine how famous someone was back then. Without E! television and whatever, I'm not sure how we could even judge fame as it was back then.:)

By the way, I'm not trying pick on Yang Cheng Fu or anything. I have nothing against him or his style at all. What I'm talking about could apply to any past master of any style - yes, even my own. I'm not trying to say that I have a style or teacher that is any better or worse than anyone else's out there.

The point is that judging someone's skill level is necessarily based on and biased by the skill level of the observer, and a lot of time people tend to forget that. If the person you're watching is better than you or anyone you've seen before, you will think they are good. If they are not as good as you, then you will think they are not so good. This is an oversimplification, but I hope it makes sense. What I'm saying is that when we want to judge the skill of a past master, people rely on stories written about that master without taking into account the skill or level of understanding of the person doing the writing. So when I say that it is a possibility that YCF was a "beginner", I don't mean a beginner in the sense of your average high school student today that just started training in martial arts. I mean that it is possible that the person who said YCF was a "beginner" could have been someone like Yang Lu Chan, who was far more experienced and advanced. From that more advanced point of view, YCF could very well seem like a "beginner", because they see that there is so much more one can aspire to. But at the same time, from our point of view, or even the point of view of the average martial artist of the time, he could seem like a "master". And he could be both of these at the same time, and neither would be entirely wrong. I don't mean this in an insulting manner. I hope I was successful in making that clear.:rolleyes:


Yang Cheng Fu was pretty famous back in the day, and while fame doesn't necesarilly = skill, it's my understanding that someone just couldn't have had the sort of standing he had in the martial arts community during that time period without proving himself beyond a "beginer" level. Maybe someone with more knowledge of what things were like back then in China could refute (or afirm) my belief (I'm hardly an expert on Chinese martial arts history and could be wrong)?

[yangyang]

There is plenty of proof around, even today. You can go ask Fu Zhong Wen's son who's father knew YCF intimately. He was a TCC master, no doubt about it. There are plenty of disciples running around who's teacher studied directly with YCF. They all agreed his power was astonishing. There were many witnesses, including the Tung family, TT Liang, YCF's own sons, etc. Stop your bull****ting. Also, his son Yang Sau Chung (the oldest son) was a tough SOB and there are people today who studied directly with YCF's son Yang Sau Chung, and they said (from firsthand experience) that YSC was a monster. So, it's only natural that if Yang Sau Chung was a monster, his dad was even more so.

JohnV, why don't you go talk about things that you actually know about instead of blowing wind. I'm positive you have an agenda of some kind just like every other my-sifu-says knitwit. As you say, you don't even do Yang family tai chi chuan, so why don't you concentrate on the things that you do know, and not spend your time trying to spread false rumours and hearsay propagated by jealousy, envy, and greed.

[johnv]

What is your problem, honestly? It's starting to sound like you have some sort of agenda. Why are you getting so defensive when I never even attacked you, your style, or your teachers? Did I say Yang Cheng Fu was no good? No. I don't even think that. So what are you freaking out about? If you could calm down for just a second, you might realize that I am speaking about something I know about. I never spoke about the merits or nuances of Yang style, did I? No. I even said that I wasn't particulary talking about YCF, but just that the whole idea of judging someone else's skill is based on one's own biases (which you're proving, as you seem to be very pro-YCF biased without being able to even consider other possibilities). I don't have to study Yang style to know that people can be biased, on both sides of any issue. So just calm down. Nobody is attacking your style or your teachers.



JohnV, why don't you go talk about things that you actually know about instead of blowing wind. I'm positive you have an agenda of some kind just like every other my-sifu-says knitwit. As you say, you don't even do Yang family tai chi chuan, so why don't you concentrate on the things that you do know, and not spend your time trying to spread false rumours and hearsay propagated by jealousy, envy, and greed.

[yangyang]

Then why did you bring up Yang Chengfu in the first place? Of course you have a bias of some sort. Of course you do. By the way, I'm not even remotely excited about this topic, it's been done to death before, believe me. Like it or not, you are more part of the problem than the solution. If you can't wrap your mind around that, then jolly good for you!! I only responded to you because I'm bored at work, and thought my words might make some sense to the people reading them. In the end, I think I proved my point more than you proved yours, so be it.:)