New Weapons

[Sam Wiley]

I was wondering what the board's opinion was on creating new weapons for our arts. I mean, what would you think if someone designed a totally new weapon, the techniques to go with it, the training methods and drills, and the forms, too? Would it be presumptuous to do so, or is it about time for something a little different to come along? Would any of you be interested in learning a weapon invented in modern times for your chosen art? Do you think the person who invented the thing would take a lot of crap from people, or would his enginuity be well received?

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Prairie]

Creating a truly new weapon would be exceedingly difficult. The designs would almost certainly have been developed in the past at some point. Even if the design was totally unique, there will be a problem finding opportunities to test it to find how to use it. One is unlikely to go to war with a hand weapon ... unless it's fueled by gunpowder.

I'd love to see a new weapon come into martial arts. However, I think it's more likely that some styles could adopt weapons from other styles. For example, I don't believe the whip chain is practiced in taijiquan. Perhaps it could be adopted with appropriate techniques that conform to the styles principles.

Bye for Now

I made a funny little club. I got a carbon-fiber rod about four foot long with threaded ends from Home Depot (i think it was supposed to be for tents). Then screwed on some lead pipe fittings to one end (quarter pound worth). Took rope and wrapped the length of it so it had more of a grip (used duct tape and twine/wood glue to bind the rope). The carbon shaft makes it flexible and durable. When you hit a tree with it, it doesn't bounce off, it just sinks in.

[PlasticSquirrel]

this would prove to be difficult, but entirely possible. if it was me, this is what i'd do:

1. get a video teaching the form of a weapon with a similar focus as your own (kwong wing lam has made a multitude of shaolin weapon forms videos). the moves will give you innovative, practical, and strategic movements.

2. add the principles of the style that you will adapt it to, blend them, and edit, discard, and add movements to it.

3. hone your skills for quite a long time, making sure that your movements can defend at anything anyone throws at you, and attack to normal areas (i know you do taiji, so one logical thing to do would be to incorporate some of the point striking that your taiji uses).

4. organize your movements into a form that you can practice that encompasses all of your movements.

5. make two-person forms for the weapon.

again, this is just what i would do. make sure that the weapon you make complies with the principles of your style, though.

good luck, sam. it will be interesting, i'm sure. :)

[TaoBoxer]

I think the idea here is to modernize or adapt a classical tool to the 21st century, like the Carbon Fiber rod mentioned above. Is that really anything more than a Japanese jo? an Indian lathi? The phillipino's use light and fast whip-like sticks also.

I can think of 2 examples of this kind of innovation.... First is the Manrikki-garrote made by James Piorek of Bladerigger. (www.bladerigger.com) I have had mine for 2 years and I can't say enough abt it.

Second would be Bram Frank's Gunting, which is an innovative folding knife. While I haven't used one personally, I have heard many reports about it's great effeciency.

[Ky-Fi]

Sam, with the incredible number of weird weapons devised by the Chinese, I'd be surprised if anyone could come up with something TOO unique, but hey, if you can come up with some new weapon, base it on the Yang style, and go into as much depth as you do some of your posts here---I'll at least buy the book. :)

Prarie, you know I've thought of that too--I always thought the chain whip would really apply well to Taiji principles, especially with the fajing---I'm surprised no one (that I know of) has added that to Taiji,

[Sam Wiley]

Well, the weapon I have in mind is not totally unique, as it has elements of other weapon in it, but I have never had one exactly like it at all. There are other weapons that are similar, and I imagine that whatever I come up with will be similar to what has already been invented.

Anyway, I have already received feedback from friends who build homemade weapons about structural stability, have made a few changes from my original design, and plan to take the design to a local company that may be able to custom forge a set of them for me once I have worked out all the little flaws and have developed some training methods for them.

I understand that in modern society there is really no point in learning exotic and outdated weapons, and these are not weapons you could easily conceal, nor would they really help one out against a gun or something like that. However, I have found that an understanding of the weapons of a style helps to understand the rest better, especially when it comes to each style's particular way of moving. While there may be no real reason to learn yet another weapon you'd never carry anyway, I believe that for the sake of the art part of the martial arts every now and again we must have something new.

Anyway, these are just some things I have been thinking about, and I was curious as to people's opinions of modern innovations in the martial arts. It's nice to know that at least a few will be open to the idea. And it's great to get some constructive suggestions on it. Thanx guys. :)

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Braden]

You know what I would kill for?

Imagine full length leather forearm bracers, with maybe some reinforcements along the upper forearm. Along the the underside is attached a sort of very-flattened, thin metal pipe that runs the full length of the bracer. By some mechanism, you can pull the metal pipe forward a couple inches so that you can just grip the end of it in the palm of your hand. Thing is, the whole pipe is a giant switch blade.

Ok, tell me those wouldn't be cool!?!?

******... I'm such a nerd.

[GeneChing]

Carbon Fiber staffs are to be required for international wushu competition, if the IWuF stays the course. MartialArtsMart.com carries them now. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/32-160.html)

[GLW]

Carbon Fiber staffs are to be required for international wushu competition, if the IWuF stays the course. MartialArtsMart.com carries them now. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/32-160.html)

So, they are replacing a $20 white wax staff with a $130 carbon fiber staff. A carbon fiber staff that is more difficult to size for the extremes of height. And the idea is that it is not supposed to shatter in competition.

Right..... Having seen lifetime warrantied custom staves shatter, having seen competitions having people practice on concrete, and so on, I am going to beat a path to buy a staff that costs 6 times more and probably does not last 5 times as long. It makes zero economic sense.

[mawali]

I was wondering what the board's opinion was on creating new weapons for our arts. I mean, what would you think if someone designed a totally new weapon, the techniques to go with it, the training methods and drills, and the forms, too? Would it be presumptuous to do so, or is it about time for something a little different to come along? Would any of you be interested in learning a weapon invented in modern times for your chosen art? Do you think the person who invented the thing would take a lot of crap from people, or would his enginuity be well received?

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

Since I imagine myself to be 'classically trained' regarding principle and concept of "CMA"! my preference for modern weapons training would be weight since 95% of wushu weapons are aluminum or some light material that is not representative of some level of reality. Basics of response are still the same as in blocking, "parrying" stabbing, slashing, etc so the conditioning aspect is important. I only say that if one has had exposure to staff, jian or dao and on eis into this process then everything else is easy because the tools are already present. Just adapt to the opponents choice of weapons as usual. When you really think about it, most routines today are of recent development based on nandu requirements so anyone's creativity is the record as opposed to someone's else's view of how stuff should be!

[GeneChing]

And the idea is that it is not supposed to shatter in competition.
...
It makes zero economic sense.
Actually, I don't think that being shatterproof is the intention. The overt 'intention' is to standardize the weapons, but if that was the case, IWuF would publish the specs of the standardized weapons for international competition. Instead, they just authorize certain manufacturers as 'official'. So it makes a lot of economic sense, but not for us. And by us, I mean all of us. The price of these is so high that we cannot offer a wholesale price at this time, so Tiger Claw isn't offering it, only MartialArtsMart.com. :(

I posted it on this thread because it came up on a search, but it's not really appropriate as there is no IWuF competitions for Taijigun, just Taijijian (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-56tc.html). Perhaps a new thread is needed to discuss the ramifications of competition weapons.

[GLW]

The IWuF has a habit of doing things like this. It is no wonder they can't get their act together for actually getting into the Olympics.

The original guidelines for the weapons were tied to traditional use. The jian was to be between the bottom and top of the ear when held correctly. The staff was supposed to be at a certain length when by your side with your arm extended above your head....all easily verifiable and customized with a simple saw when you bought a wood staff. The spears had a standard head...but now the spearhead is laughable and the length.....REALLY....

I am not surprised you can't sell them. The only people that would spend that much on a staff are those with either deep pockets or those that plan on competing in China. And, deep pockets...usually means Mom and Dad are paying for it. ;)

[GeneChing]

Since introducing this product, we have sold several.

The carbon-fiber staffs aren't required yet, but the IWuF is leaning that direction and it is likely they will be mandatory very soon.

Those original 'traditional' measurement requirements are still in place but that's it really. That's not enough for a real sport. Take baseball bat or hockey stick regulations. It's much more specific. I don't recall regulations for the spearhead ever - just rules on length.

[GLW]

Since introducing this product, we have sold several.

The carbon-fiber staffs aren't required yet, but the IWuF is leaning that direction and it is likely they will be mandatory very soon.

Those original 'traditional' measurement requirements are still in place but that's it really. That's not enough for a real sport. Take baseball bat or hockey stick regulations. It's much more specific. I don't recall regulations for the spearhead ever - just rules on length.

So true. How hard would it be for them to state "The staff must be 35 cm longer than the height of the competitor. The tapered end must be no smaller in diameter than 2.5 cm and no larger than 4 cm and the bottom diameter must be no smaller than 4 cm and no larger than 6 cm. The entire staff must weigh no less than ##."

They could do the same thing with jian and dao and specify the flexibility of the blade in degrees. It would be VERY easy to do.

But, the IWuF seems to never take action that makes sense.

[GeneChing]

...or yuan perhaps. ;)

By granting the exclusive contracts for these mandatory weapons, IWuF can line the pockets of the manufacturer. I guess that's how it's done in a communist nation. In a free market - LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER INTERNATIONAL SPORT - the rulebooks clearly outline the specifications of all the equipment and manufacturers can compete to offer the best product at the lowest price. That's capitalism baby. But take Fencing for example - all the equipment - weapons, masks, jackets, knickers - are strictly specified within the FIE rulebook and multiple international companies around the world strive to meet those standards and earn that FIE certification. With IWuF, the company that has the contract is the only one that is certified. There's no specs, no weapons check prior to a tournament. Now here's the kicker - Tiger Claw and MartialArtsMart.com have been carrying regulation IWuF swords for years now. Over those years, the manufacturing contract has changed resulting in slight shifts in the weapons...because there are no specs.

Mind you, these weapons are only required for IWuF modern wushu competition. They don't affect other competitions like the World Traditionals (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68203-The-6th-World-Traditional-Wushu-Championships).

And FWIW, the carbon-fiber staffs are not as bad as the graphite staffs (http://www.martialartsmart.com/27-k.html) that are all the rage in the Sport Karate circuits. I've nicknamed those 'glitter sticks'. :p They sell disturbingly well. :( :rolleyes:

[GLW]

...or yuan perhaps. ;)

By granting the exclusive contracts for these mandatory weapons, IWuF can line the pockets of the manufacturer. I guess that's how it's done in a communist nation. In a free market - LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER INTERNATIONAL SPORT - the rulebooks clearly outline the specifications of all the equipment and manufacturers can compete to offer the best product at the lowest price. That's capitalism baby. But take Fencing for example - all the equipment - weapons, masks, jackets, knickers - are strictly specified within the FIE rulebook and multiple international companies around the world strive to meet those standards and earn that FIE certification. With IWuF, the company that has the contract is the only one that is certified. There's no specs, no weapons check prior to a tournament. Now here's the kicker - Tiger Claw and MartialArtsMart.com have been carrying regulation IWuF swords for years now. Over those years, the manufacturing contract has changed resulting in slight shifts in the weapons...because there are no specs.

Mind you, these weapons are only required for IWuF modern wushu competition. They don't affect other competitions like the World Traditionals (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68203-The-6th-World-Traditional-Wushu-Championships).

And FWIW, the carbon-fiber staffs are not as bad as the graphite staffs (http://www.martialartsmart.com/27-k.html) that are all the rage in the Sport Karate circuits. I've nicknamed those 'glitter sticks'. :p They sell disturbingly well. :( :rolleyes:


I know that is how they work. It is the stuff that boycotts are made of. :D

And their excuse for them allowing the event to NOT check weapons....not gonna fly with me. I ALWAYS check weapons. Especially since the event in Arizona where one of the judges was pregnant and sitting there while a competitor did Dao. They did not check weapons.

The Dao came apart with a thrust....blade headed straight towards here and missed by a couple of feet (too close for me) and then went ****zing past me missing me by about 10 feet...with my back to it almost... and the competitor was in a nice Gung bu, arm extended, holding only the wood part of the Dao handle.

Also had an event where the competitor was doing spear.... did one thrust...and then there was a tap on the floor...spear head fell off. The head judge had asked a judge to inspect the weapons...and they didn't do that one because the knew the competitor. I looked at it...there had never been a screw in the spear head at all.

But...I LIKE the feel of a real wood staff...and how it absorbs your hand oil and gets better with time.:cool:

[GeneChing]

But...I LIKE the feel of a real wood staff...and how it absorbs your hand oil and gets better with time.:cool: I feel ya there. ;) I've played with metal staffs. Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/bo-jo-martial-arts-c-332.html) & MartialArtsMart.com (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-staffs-batons-staffs.html?sorttype=0&page=1) used to carry them, but they were discontinued because they didn't sell well. I still have one. They were ribbed and textured for your pleasure (alright, for a better grip actually ;)) and could deliver a wallop. But I still prefer the response of a good wood staff.