skill of stone throwing of CLF

[taaigihk]

Hi,

I found this chinese site with CLF quanpu:

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/dulihandbu/qianyan.htm

that mentions "toushishu" or skill of stone throwing as part of the curriculum.
Has anyone heard about it, or better, is practising this aspect of CLF?

I myself am not a CLF person. Just found it interesting. As for stone throwing, I've found it also in Wan Laisheng's "Wushu huizong" - he has some practical instructions on how to practice it. Would like to compare. Thanks :-)

[Fu-Pow]

Is that anything like training with "stone locks"?

[taaigihk]

Is that anything like training with "stone locks"?

I'm not sure what "stone locks" are. If you're thinking of strength building stone weights, then not. It's about using a stone as a weapon, a projectile.

[hskwarrior]

throwing stones are most probably equivalent to the old timers who used to used sharpened throwing coins as weapons. it is said that they are one chosen weapon of tong assassins and enforcers.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

throwing stones are most probably equivalent to the old timers who used to used sharpened throwing coins as weapons. it is said that they are one chosen weapon of tong assassins and enforcers.

the stonde shape locks are for weight training as you've said.



hsk

[TenTigers]

wow, and here I was thinkin that it was a sarcastic comment on the politics that go one between CLF branches. wel...it coulda been!

[hskwarrior]

rik,

have you joined my class on throwing stones choy lee fut politcal style?


but yes throwing stones actually work well. plus you can't get arrested for having rocks in your pocket or in your glove compartment, or even under your front seat.
****, i just revealed where i keep my throwing stones.

**** you.

hsk;)

[taaigihk]

throwing stones are most probably equivalent to the old timers who used to used sharpened throwing coins as weapons. it is said that they are one chosen weapon of tong assassins and enforcers.

the stonde shape locks are for weight training as you've said.



hsk

Yes, it is the same "an qi" - concealed weapon category. Sharpened coins are mentioned by Wan Laisheng in his book too. He calls it Luohan qian. He says that if you're skilled at it, you should be able to break through a water melon skin with a coin from a distance of 24 steps. Which is quite a long way for a light coin like that i think. Anyways I wonder wether it can really be a killing weapon. Do you know if they (those enforcers) were using regular coins of the time or just coin shaped (heavier) projectiles?

Thanks for the response.

[hskwarrior]

sorry bro couldn't tell you.

when interview my si-sooks about Lau Bun there were those who said "you know he used to carry throwing coins" but i've never got to see them.

nah, i'm sure they aren't meant to kill, but possibly with the right power and speed you can seriously injure someone or even take an eye out.

i think the throwing coins were more of an escape method but not sure.


thanks

[taaigihk]

Good info. Shows that it was kind of alive not a long time ago at least.

As for the "deadliness" of it, I agree, it may have been a useful gadget, something of a last resort.

Thanks again. :)

[Eddie]

Well, if the coin is dirty, sharp and breaks your skin when it hits you, it could cause some serious infection which could end up in death if you don’t get treated. A pretty handy weapon if you ask me, and gives you enough time to get out mostly.

stone trowing could be most useful too

[extrajoseph]

"Tou Shi Shu" is the art of throwing stones. In XinHui where Chan Heung came from the river bed is full little round pebbles from about half to an inch diameters perfectly shape for throwing without too much drag.

It is considered a part of the Qi Men (unusual) weapons and it is not only used for attack but also used to detract and often used as an aid for practice. Imagine doing the bil-ji with a stone in you hand and throw it as you bil, the stone will focus and direct your finger qi towards your target with speed and sharpness.

A cool page, pity you guys can't read Chinese, it has a lot of information on CLF forms and weapons and also kuen po. An interesting part is about CLF sounds and how local dialect changed the meaning of some moves and the sound of the Five Animals in CLF are different to what has been written.

Loong Gee-Choy was wellknown for Tou Shi Shu", legend has that he rescued a young girl from being raped by throwing stones at the right acupressure point in the head and killed the rapist instantly. If Jeong Yim was Loong Gee Choy, Frank should be good at throwing stones. The trouble is he does it out of a glass house!

:D

[hskwarrior]

you have never beat me in this battle joseph,

do you really want to start this up again?

besides, your Li Iu Ling lineage has a slightly different slant on the history than the chan family does of their own family member.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You have proved nothing, you just regurgitate a few gossips you heard from Futsan. If they have something solid they would have gone to King Mui long ago, they don't need you to spread their "truth" here, they can do it in China.

For someone who can't read or write Chinese and can only speak a few swear words in Cantonese, you sure know a lot about CLF history and CLF kuen-po. Why don't you just tell us how fantastic your kung fu is and how wonderful your webpages look and leave the history to the historians and the kuen-po to the family elders. You are completely out of your depth here.

I have thrushed you many times before and I will continue to do so every time I find you trying to change history and insult the Chen Family, Li Iu-ling included!

EJ:mad:

[taaigihk]

.. and often used as an aid for practice. Imagine doing the bil-ji with a stone in you hand and throw it as you bil, the stone will focus and direct your finger qi towards your target with speed and sharpness.

Interesting. I must admit I've overlooked this aspect. Although I'm not sure how CLF bil-ji exactly looks like I believe it is some springing shot from finger joints. Does stone throwing involve similar motion? Maybe it just teaches some kind of natural relaxation, removes unnecessary tension, unblocks the mind, or something like that.. Anyway, I like the idea.



Loong Gee-Choy was wellknown for Tou Shi Shu", legend has that he rescued a young girl from being raped by throwing stones at the right acupressure point in the head and killed the rapist instantly.

:D

Of course if he didn't hit the right accupressure point, just simply blew rapist's head off with a rock, he could have survived ;)
But seriously it's a cool story. :)

Thank you.

[extrajoseph]

Hi taaighk,

CLF also train tuo-shi-shu with the wooden dummy. You mark up a wooden dummy and throw pebbles at the acupressure points, then mount the wooden dummy on a set of wheels and throw at the same points while the dummy is moving. Now you get to train with moving as well as fixed targets.

Glad you find it interesting, CLF is full of effective training techniques and they are all recorded in the kuen po like the ones you see on the webpage you have quoted.

Thanks for listening.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

so, joseph,

pls explain the differences of stone throwing between choy lee fut and other styles.

how do you throw a stone choy lee fut style?

[Kennyfist]

so, joseph,

pls explain the differences of stone throwing between choy lee fut and other styles.

how do you throw a stone choy lee fut style?

HSK,
SO YOU DON'T HAVE STONE THROWING IN YOUR CLF? WHAT JEONG YIM (WHICH YOU THINK IS LONG JI CHOY) DIDN'T PASS ON THE SKILL? BUT LONG JI CHOY WAS KNOWN FOR HIS STONE THROWING SKILL RIGHT?.........:D :D

YOU LIKE THROWING STONES OUT OF A GLASS HOUSE?:D

[extrajoseph]

so, joseph,

pls explain the differences of stone throwing between choy lee fut and other styles.

how do you throw a stone choy lee fut style?

Hi Frank,

If you don't know the difference then you don't have the inner chamber transmission and there is no point in asking your Futsan Masters because they won't know either, but I am sure they will make something up and let you know.

;) :D :p

[iron_silk]

Hi Frank,

If you don't know the difference then you don't have the inner chamber transmission and there is no point in asking your Futsan Masters because they won't know either, but I am sure they will make something up and let you know.

;) :D :p


Hi Joseph

How are you doing?

Since Frank asked in a polite manner, perhaps you could respond in kind. If you did not wish to answer his question is one thing, but the comment about his Futsan Masters is a bit childish. No offense intended.

[hskwarrior]

Actually,

joseph is right. As far as i know Rock Throwing is not a part of Jeong Yim's repetoire. Possibly if his alias was Loong Gee Choy.

but Chan Heung was NOT the creator of rock throwing. He may have taught his pupils to do so, but again Chan Heung did not create the martial art of rock throwing.

cavemen have him down on that. they were chucking rocks at dinosaurs with precision for long time. look at david and goliath, oh wait was david a choy lee fut guy? LMAO.

but it is a well know fact that whatever Chan Heung taught it was to his direct line. Jeong Yim was the most trusted (even more than Loong Gee Choy) most fatihful disciple that chan heung had even according to our boy joseph here.

however, jeong yim's branch does not teach chan family sets. the sets they teach are of Jeong Yim's direct lineage. I can simply say that Chan Heung's people do not have what Jeong Yim teaches. And that could lead to a never ending battle.

So, to basically say this, sets that come from Chan Heung are those of the Chan King Mui Great Sage Hung branch. The sets that Jeong Hung Sing Taught were those of his own branch. So i don't expect to see Fut San Hung Sing sets practiced in the Chan Family branch.

In fact, it is very identifiable via the opening of the sets whether or not who is a fut san hung sing kwoon disciple and that of a Chan Family disciple. it is that distinct.

so when people like kennypoopinhispants, and Joseph speak out, i know they know nothing of our lineage. they see it from chan heung's side of the street.

if people were to stand in the middle of the block in the middle of the street and try to see things equally, choy lee fut would be a greater system today.

i did not start the CLF wars, i was just part of it.

Joseph is equally a loud mouth about the chan family as i am for the hung sing people.

the only problem is they won't let us tell our story as it was passed down within our family. it was passed down within their family and someone wrote it down. the same is for ours.

Instead of who is right, We should Unite!

It should be like Tell me about chan Heung, oh thats great, now turn to a hung sing disciple and ask ...tell me about Jeong Yim, then do the exact same for Tam Sam. that way they all get the glory.

it will happen.


peace.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Ironsilk,

I am well, I just don'tlike the idea of giving Frank a straight answer when he is so "you know what", so I just behaved in kind.

Please note the different smilies I put up to show it was meant to be funny. I am sorry you didn't get the joke.

It's OK with me,writing is not the best form of communication at best of times.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

thats funny though.

Joseph, how hard is it to throw a rock and hit someone with it?

if people can dodge bullets when a crazy gunmen is shooting at him then how hard would it be to dodge a rock?

what happens if when you throw the rock and the guy gets out of the way, picks up his own rock and knocks out your eye with something he never practiced before?

so joseph please do not make "Throwing Rocks" out to be some hard earned skill. Its so simple that i could have told you yes, there are secret rock throwing techniques in my lineage, and just throw a bunch of rocks at you with choy lee fut flavor and pass it off.

so whats the big deal?

are you saying there are no other rock throwing teachers out there?

hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh wait, thats right, you would be throwing rocks at a solid piece of wood.

makes sense.

[iron_silk]

Actually Joseph I did see your smiley faces.

But I do see throwing rocks as a skill that can be refined to a mastery level that isn't just throwing to hit someone anywhere.

Sorry to have a interuptted you guys...carry on.

[hskwarrior]

Iron silk,

i agree, using your environment as a weapon is a great way to protect yourself. you can also learn to do the same thing with throwing stars. it does take some precision to even hit a stationary target though. i give that.

but joseph is wrong for assuming that throwing rocks was created by chan heung. in all actuality, Lau Bun used to carry throwing darts in his pockets, and Jew Leong used to carry throwing coins.

so i'm sure that throwing coins are not far off from throwing stones.

so although we do teach lau bun's method of throwing coins, its not something that is readily taught. mainly for whom my sifu deems fit for it.

practicing to throw something is great. but it may not always be effective against a fast moving person.

hsk

[iron_silk]

well...the art of how to throw something can't be something knew even in Chan Hueng's time. But it doesn't mean he didn't practice it on his own and develop his own technique and training method. So it is his way of doing therefore created by him in this very specific sense.

This doesn't mean he's the only one that created it or that others could not have thought of the same method independent of each other.

It would only be wrong if claimed he was the only one to do it ever in his time and anyone after must be because of him...then that is definitely wrong.

Otherwise kung fu is kung fu...there was many systems before CLF...CLF is relatively new...but it's specific way is unique to them.

[hskwarrior]

i totally agree.

[iron_silk]

i totally agree.


That is really cool. Not sure this has happen before. This is a special moment or something.

thx

[hskwarrior]

see, i'm not such a bad guy.;)

[Kennyfist]

Iron silk,

i agree, using your environment as a weapon is a great way to protect yourself. you can also learn to do the same thing with throwing stars. it does take some precision to even hit a stationary target though. i give that.

but joseph is wrong for assuming that throwing rocks was created by chan heung. in all actuality, Lau Bun used to carry throwing darts in his pockets, and Jew Leong used to carry throwing coins.

so i'm sure that throwing coins are not far off from throwing stones.

so although we do teach lau bun's method of throwing coins, its not something that is readily taught. mainly for whom my sifu deems fit for it.

practicing to throw something is great. but it may not always be effective against a fast moving person.

hsk
Hsk,
Quote: "but joseph is wrong for assuming that throwing rocks was created by chan heung"

And when did Joseph say that?

[Kennyfist]

Actually,

joseph is right. As far as i know Rock Throwing is not a part of Jeong Yim's repetoire. Possibly if his alias was Loong Gee Choy.

but Chan Heung was NOT the creator of rock throwing. He may have taught his pupils to do so, but again Chan Heung did not create the martial art of rock throwing.

cavemen have him down on that. they were chucking rocks at dinosaurs with precision for long time. look at david and goliath, oh wait was david a choy lee fut guy? LMAO.

but it is a well know fact that whatever Chan Heung taught it was to his direct line. Jeong Yim was the most trusted (even more than Loong Gee Choy) most fatihful disciple that chan heung had even according to our boy joseph here.

however, jeong yim's branch does not teach chan family sets. the sets they teach are of Jeong Yim's direct lineage. I can simply say that Chan Heung's people do not have what Jeong Yim teaches. And that could lead to a never ending battle.

So, to basically say this, sets that come from Chan Heung are those of the Chan King Mui Great Sage Hung branch. The sets that Jeong Hung Sing Taught were those of his own branch. So i don't expect to see Fut San Hung Sing sets practiced in the Chan Family branch.

In fact, it is very identifiable via the opening of the sets whether or not who is a fut san hung sing kwoon disciple and that of a Chan Family disciple. it is that distinct.

so when people like kennypoopinhispants, and Joseph speak out, i know they know nothing of our lineage. they see it from chan heung's side of the street.

if people were to stand in the middle of the block in the middle of the street and try to see things equally, choy lee fut would be a greater system today.

i did not start the CLF wars, i was just part of it.

Joseph is equally a loud mouth about the chan family as i am for the hung sing people.

the only problem is they won't let us tell our story as it was passed down within our family. it was passed down within their family and someone wrote it down. the same is for ours.

Instead of who is right, We should Unite!

It should be like Tell me about chan Heung, oh thats great, now turn to a hung sing disciple and ask ...tell me about Jeong Yim, then do the exact same for Tam Sam. that way they all get the glory.

it will happen.
peace.

Hsk,
Quote: "Jeong Yim was the most trusted (even more than Loong Gee Choy) most fatihful disciple that chan heung had even according to our boy joseph here."

And when did Joseph say that?

And Quote: "but it is a well know fact that whatever Chan Heung taught it was to his direct line. Jeong Yim was the most trusted (even more than Loong Gee Choy) most fatihful disciple that chan heung had even according to our boy joseph here.

however, jeong yim's branch does not teach chan family sets. the sets they teach are of Jeong Yim's direct lineage"

So Hsk, what is your point? Jeong yim direct line from chan heung or not?

And Quote: "so when people like kennypoopinhispants, and Joseph speak out, i know they know nothing of our lineage. they see it from chan heung's side of the street."

Actually Hsk, there is an in-built system of transmission that allows those in the know to identify whether a teacher/student or lineage had got the inner chamber transmission or not, and also allows categorically low level clf identifiable from categorically high-level or advanced clf. There are " curtains that distinguish"......

[hskwarrior]

hey dumb ass, what lineage am i from?

no one in the hung sing or buk sing branches learn chan family stuff. we learn stuff created by jeong hung sing.

you can keep your inner chambers because we do have our own. if we were worried about chan family inner chambers, we would run and become disciples.

but we are proud being hung sing kwoon members, you know the most prolific, and most structered branch in all of southern china.

but i wonder if you and joseph know that no-where in Jeong Yim's lineage in usa singapore, hong kong, or where ever have a picture up of Chan Heung. I wonder why no one in this branch from here to asia we don't have his picture up?

maybe because Chan Heung didn't have too much to do with Jeong Yim's Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

do either of you, joseph or kennypoopedinhispants practice Choy Lee Fut found in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?

I didn't think so.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

oh and your built in transmission and flowery curtains......what does that have to do with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut?

[Kennyfist]

Well you can brag about how close jeong yim was to chan heung if you want,and you can brag about how good your branch is etc etc but those in the know can tell.......there are "curtains that distinguish".....

And the in-built transmission mechanism prevents the unloyal students from getting the details and refinement........

Well if you don't have the transmission....then you don't have it.
If we don't tell you about whats behind the curtains or the curtain itself.....perhaps you wouldn't even know of its existence as it "fades into the background"..... Maybe you would conclude there was no curtain anyway.....

Doesn't matter much, does it? If you don't know then you don't know. If you don't have it then you don't have it..... You can choose to think something like " our kung fu fantastic....we have it all" ....... but it doesn't mean those in the know cannot tell....OK?

And the very knowledgeable.....well maybe they don't feel they have anything to prove to you so they don't waste time on you.....

Another thing, I'm not interested in your futsan clf, OK?

[Eddie]

HSKwarrior,
All respects and all, but I find this topic pretty interesting and want to know more about this part of CLF or what ever style. Is it possible to just put your historical differences and political arguments aside for a moment, and allow mr extrajoseph and kennyfist to give us more explanation on this part of CLF? Please (and this request is sincere – if you get upset with me again, I will have to fly over there and kick you azzzz :cool: ;) ).

I’m sure others also want to know about this, whether or not its part of our style or lineage or whatever, it’s a good skill to learn. Shees, my neighbourhood is full of small rocks, learning how to throw it properly can be useful. Doing so in a CLF way would be uber cool :)

Mr Extrajospeh, you teased allot of us with this info, please dont leave us high and dry. Please give us more insight into this. :)

[Asmo]

In Outlaws of the Marsh there is also a character who has stone throwing skills. 'Featherless Arrow' if I get his name correctly right away. Book's written in the 14th centry.

Unfortunally theres not much text that speaks of how it works and so other then that this person is skilled in throwing stones as a real kungfu :)

[taaigihk]

Hi taaighk,

CLF also train tuo-shi-shu with the wooden dummy. You mark up a wooden dummy and throw pebbles at the acupressure points, then mount the wooden dummy on a set of wheels and throw at the same points while the dummy is moving. Now you get to train with moving as well as fixed targets.
EJ

Hi,
the practising on a moving dummy (or any other moving target) idea is very good. Like most simple ideas :)


I’m sure others also want to know about this, whether or not its part of our style or lineage or whatever, it’s a good skill to learn

If so, than you (or anyone else inetersted) might check Wan Laisheng's "Wushu huizong". You can download a pdf from here:

http://wyx.nbtvu.net.cn/jmm/武術匯宗（萬籟聲）.pdf

It is in chinese. Look for the Feihuang shi part. You can find also information on other throwing weapons/projectiles.

There's also a text about the skill of stone throwing of the Buyi nationality (mainly living in Guizhou, China) that I found on the web, but cannot find the link anywhere, so I'll just paste it here:

布依族飞石技法
勤劳勇敢的布依族，在长期的生产斗争中，一贯使用飞石进行打猎、防盗和保卫家园、功夫较深的老猎手能使飞石 击中相距五、六十米外或更远的目标，出手的石头近似直线运动，猛烈、快速、呼呼有声，令人闻声生畏。下面介 绍飞石的练习方法，以供爱好者练习。
1、选石：质地越坚越好；以圆形或椭圆形为宜，也有用方形的。一级重二两至四

两。
2、握法：将拇指和无名指固定住石头的两头，食指和中指稳住其一方，握力松紧

适度，掌心要空．
3、身法（以右手握石为例）：身体向左侧，左脚向左后稍迈出半步，重心移至右

脚，右膝稍屈，身体稍右倾，左脚尖稍踮起。脸向左侧，眼视左前方之目标。右手握

石举至距右肩上耳枕后5寸处。
4、发力飞石：主要靠爆发力。吸一口气后，右手短促有在地从右肩上经右面前将

石击向目标，同时呼气或呼“咳”声，要将腰腹力量及右腿蹬力密切配合。反复练习

。
5、目标（靶）：一般以本人同高的木桩、木条钉在地上作为目标即可，也可用各

种任意物作为目标。距离可逐渐延长，先从20米远处开始练习，远者可达百米。本法行之有效，具有实战意义。 若能坚持练习，将会得心应手。

Those distances are highly exaggerated, but still it has some simple, but useful advice. I think :)

It is written in a simple language (much easier then this of Wan Laishengs) and short so maybe someone could translate it for those who don't read chinese. Neither english or chinese is my mother tongue, so will not attempt it. ;)

[extrajoseph]

Mr Extrajospeh, you teased allot of us with this info, please dont leave us high and dry. Please give us more insight into this. :)

Whether it is the Jongs, or the unusual weapons like the nine dragon trident, the fan, the chopsticks, the walking stick and even rock throwing, the Chen Family has a lot of the CLF techniques hidden away. To insult them will only make them hide away.

I noticed after all that went on with Frank and Lacey regarding the founder of CLF, Chen Yong-Fa even shut down his website a while and now what we see is very general information.

The experience we gained from life is that if we want to learn and to gain some information on a subject, we have to be humble. The way Frank bags the Chen family will only isolate himself from the rest of the group and he won't learn anything.

Everyone at the higher level of CLF is working away to create unity, some of demo in the video you guys saw earlier from the Bak Sing Gwoon celebration were Chen Family students and unknown to Frank, King Mui visited and exchanged information with Futsan many time over.

We looked fragmented publicly with bad behaviours from guys like Frank and you know who, but we are more together than most people realized.

I won't say any more about Tou Shi Shu, it is not my place to do so, I will leave the subject to the Chen Family elders, but they are only a telephone call or an email away with the exception of Frank.

Believe me, no one of any substance in the Chen Family will talk to him! Sure they will smile and be cordial to him when they meet but they don't forget! This is a public forum and everyone knows what goes on here. (Frank spoke to Howard Choy and he is going to call Chen Yong-Fa, what a joke!)

If Frank wants to create unity for CLF, the best he could do is to shut up and be respectful to Chan Heung and his descendants, after all they are an important part of the CLF family!

EJ

[extrajoseph]

Hi taaigihk,

Interesting information from the Buyi minority. Some of the descriptions are very close to what is written up in the CLF kuen po, they also use wooden targets, but our throwing technique is a little bit different, we don't lift our arm above the shoulder and behind the ear, it gives too much away.

Thanks for the exchange.

EJ

[taaigihk]

Hi taaigihk,

Interesting information from the Buyi minority. Some of the descriptions are very close to what is written up in the CLF kuen po, they also use wooden targets, but our throwing technique is a little bit different, we don't lift our arm above the shoulder and behind the ear, it gives too much away.

Thanks for the exchange.

EJ
Hi extrajoseph,

That's the kind of information I hoped to get from this place. Of course, I'm not pushing you to reveal more details.

Thanks :)

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

as long as there are people out there like yourself who only knows chan family historys and know nothing of Fut San HSK history (and you have displayed your own ingonorance when it comes to my branch) then you yourself can shut the fock up.

In the early 1990's i started sending emails to people about the history. one of the emails came from MR Howard Choy, where he gave me his version of who jeong yim was, what he did, and that there was no GGM in his records.

you and the chan family are not authorities on Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon and i have proven to know far more about my branch than you do.

so again, it is you who can keep their mouth shut. and if you have a problem with that you can come see me about it there sister josephine.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

well joseph,

tell us how does chan family members throw a rock if not behing the ear or raising your shoulders?


yes inform us there mister.

[hskwarrior]

oh, and about your comments about the chan family remembering me, well i'd rather them remember me than not at all.

until i hear from chan yong fa or any other high ranking chan family over me spreading our hung sing lineage and having to argue the points with nobody's like joseph, and kennyfist. I'm not going to worry about what you have to say joseph.

but if there are those out there who wish to stand in the way of progress, their names will be known for doing so. it is completely appearant that one branch of CLF will more than likely shoot down a unity. and i can tell you that it won't be hung sing or buk sing.

you are very very bitter joseph, while i the very encouraging emails and responces like "if there were more gung fu people like you there would less bs in the kung fu world"........so i'm not really worried if you or kennyfist hate me. that doesn't matter.


i told you long ago joseph that the fut san history according to the source will come out and it has. and is still going strong.

joseph, answer me a question......."why do you suppose Jeong Yim's Fut San HSK or any of his disciples schools put up chan heung's photo at the alter?"

if chan heung was the founder of "our Choy Lee Fut" than why isn't there indictating that he is our founder? in fact is there any photo up in of him in Fut San? Nah, its Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, and he is the founder of our branch. period.

Joseph, do you even know that according to the fut san branch that one of Jeong Yim's sifu's was actually Lee Yau San? Just becuase you never got wind of it doesn't mean its not true.

see, you shouldn't try to tell us about our direct family when you are from another joseph. you are not the connected to know the truth about our lineage.

stay with the chan family-the kuen po's- and such and leave our lineage alone. you have nothing to do with it.

or unless you actually do , and that would be what? Nothing? as i thought.


hsk

[extrajoseph]

In the early 1990's i started sending emails to people about the history. one of the emails came from MR Howard Choy, where he gave me his version of who jeong yim was, what he did, and that there was no GGM in his records.
hsk

Hi Frank,

Try to contact him now and see what you'll get!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

i don't have to seek approval from a chan family member when it comes to my lineage.

i know what howard choy told me back then. if that has changed his account once again then i'm not sure if i would trust him.

see, joseph, you act as if the Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut has anything to do with Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, that's the problem.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Do you want to know why we think it is unfair to call Jeong Yim the founder of Fut Shan Hung Sing Gwoon?

Translate this passage below properly and you'll know:

以佛山的蔡李佛分会为例，张炎是清光绪元年才到那里任主教，在他之前是有“盲侠”之称的陈典垣。如果将佛山 的蔡李佛武馆说成是“张炎的鸿胜馆”显然是抹杀了在佛山任主教近三十年的陈典垣所奠下的深厚基础；更不应看 谁所传授的个别弟子在日后有所作为，便随意地簊改历史。

Futsan is changing history so they can claim it is the birthplace of CLF, just like they want it to be the birthplace of Hung Kuen and Wing Chun as well. It is all a tourist trap and you fell for it and what's more, wear their bleeding bleeding heart on your chest!

Wake up! You have been used!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

now, thats according to your chan family, if it doen't come from Fut San Hung Sing it isn't fut san hung sing.

you are a joke joseph, answer me, why doesn't the fut san hung sing kwoon or its people have chan heung up on the wall in the alter?

[hskwarrior]

but joseph,

lets not fool the people its not fair to them. you act like the chinese government isn't involved with chan heung's king mui branch.

you can keep posting things joseph, but, the fact still remains, Jeong Hung Sing's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has nothing to do with Chan Heung's King Mui stuff, and vice-versa.

i keep telling you that Chan Heung's branch has nothing to do with us, but you try to keep telling me chan POV on my branch. doesn't seem shady to you?

[CLFNole]

Frank, how can you say the Chan Hueng's CLF has nothing to do with Jeurng Yim's CLF?

Jeurng Yim was Chan Hueng's student for god sake, how can there be no connection?

You have to acknowledge this basic fact.

[Kennyfist]

oh, and about your comments about the chan family remembering me, well i'd rather them remember me than not at all.

until i hear from chan yong fa or any other high ranking chan family over me spreading our hung sing lineage and having to argue the points with nobody's like joseph, and kennyfist. I'm not going to worry about what you have to say joseph.

but if there are those out there who wish to stand in the way of progress, their names will be known for doing so. it is completely appearant that one branch of CLF will more than likely shoot down a unity. and i can tell you that it won't be hung sing or buk sing.

you are very very bitter joseph, while i the very encouraging emails and responces like "if there were more gung fu people like you there would less bs in the kung fu world"........so i'm not really worried if you or kennyfist hate me. that doesn't matter.


i told you long ago joseph that the fut san history according to the source will come out and it has. and is still going strong.

joseph, answer me a question......."why do you suppose Jeong Yim's Fut San HSK or any of his disciples schools put up chan heung's photo at the alter?"

if chan heung was the founder of "our Choy Lee Fut" than why isn't there indictating that he is our founder? in fact is there any photo up in of him in Fut San? Nah, its Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, and he is the founder of our branch. period.

Joseph, do you even know that according to the fut san branch that one of Jeong Yim's sifu's was actually Lee Yau San? Just becuase you never got wind of it doesn't mean its not true.

see, you shouldn't try to tell us about our direct family when you are from another joseph. you are not the connected to know the truth about our lineage.

stay with the chan family-the kuen po's- and such and leave our lineage alone. you have nothing to do with it.

or unless you actually do , and that would be what? Nothing? as i thought.


hsk

Hsk,

Quote:"while i the very encouraging emails and responces like "if there were more gung fu people like you there would less bs in the kung fu world".

What? Should I laugh or is it so ridiculous its not funny........?:eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote: "Joseph, do you even know that according to the fut san branch that one of Jeong Yim's sifu's was actually Lee Yau San?"

And where is the evidence? If no evidence then the attempts at changing history are utterly pathetic and ridiculous! Now jeong yim learns from chan heung's teacher! Now what about choy fook and chan yuen wu? When are they next?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Kennyfist]

well joseph,

tell us how does chan family members throw a rock if not behing the ear or raising your shoulders?


yes inform us there mister.

Hsk,
If you want free info, maybe you need to be more respectful and humble!

But if you haven't got the transmission, then you haven't got the transmission.....If you don't know then you don't know!

Are you or the futsan guys going to make something up now?

Time will tell........?

Another Quote: "until i hear from chan yong fa or any other high ranking chan family over me spreading our hung sing lineage and having to argue the points with nobody's like joseph, and kennyfist. "

And what makes you think that sifu chen is even remotely interested in talking to YOU? Maybe he doesn't feel he needs to prove anything....especially to YOU!

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

Why are you interested in the chan family tou shi shu? Not your branch right?
Chan family material nothing to do with your futsan hsk material according to you?

So why are you asking?:rolleyes:

Another thing, so futsan hsk has picture of jeung yim? What does he look like?

[hskwarrior]

chan heung was "One" of Jeong Yim's teachers.
i never said there was "No" connection, i said Chan Heung did not develop Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, Jeong Yim did. the fut san branches do acknowledge Chan Heung as being one of the teachers, but in the end, the fut san Hung Sing Branch is Jeong Yim's doing, plain and simple. there are no indications of Chan Heung anywhere in the schools at all.

Jeong Yim his gung fu from Chan Heung, and the Green Grass Monk. Since I've seen the Fut San direct line version they also say Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San.

if you can translate www.hongshengguan.com it says it there on the site that Jeong Yims teachers were Chan Heung, CHing Cho and Lee Yau San.

Jeong Yim and Chan Heungs Choy Lee Fut are different. Chan Heung has his, and Jeong Yim developed his own. i'm sure joseph will have some answer for it from the Chan POV but chan family CLF don't do the "L" pattern in the Hoi Jong, if they do then that comes from Fut San Hung SIng. Only Hung SIng Fut San does that "L" pattern up to the bow.

If any of you could point out the Chan Heung influence in Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, i would like to hear what you have to say.

so clfnole, when i say that chan heung had nothing to do with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, i mean chan heung had nothing to do with the development of his gung fu. we don't teach or practice sets found in the chan family. why?

hsk

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

So are we going to soon get a "new version" from futsan saying choy lee fut is named after 3 teachers of jeong yim: choy fook., lee yau san and green grass monk (and maybe chan yuenwu and "possibly" chan heung) ?

Now who's next in the process of changing history? Choy fook.....? or chan yuen woo?

Quote: "If any of you could point out the Chan Heung influence in Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, i would like to hear what you have to say."

Well maybe the fact that jeong yim admits the art he practices is CHOY LEE FUT? OK?

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Quote:"Jeong Yim his gung fu from Chan Heung, and the Green Grass Monk. Since I've seen the Fut San direct line version they also say Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San."

So are we going to soon get a "new version" from futsan saying choy lee fut is named after 3 teachers of jeong yim: choy fook., lee yau san and green grass monk (and maybe chan yuenwu and "possibly" chan heung) ?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now who's next in the process of changing history? Choy fook.....? or chan yuen woo?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote: "If any of you could point out the Chan Heung influence in Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, i would like to hear what you have to say."

Well maybe the fact that jeong yim admits the art he practices is CHOY LEE FUT? OK?

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

Quote:"when i say that chan heung had nothing to do with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, i mean chan heung had nothing to do with the development of his gung fu. we don't teach or practice sets found in the chan family. why?"

If Chan Heung was jeong yim's teacher then how could chan heung have nothing to do with the development of jeong yim's kung fu?:rolleyes:

Quote:"we don't teach or practice sets found in the chan family. why?"

Well if using your reasoning....what if someone says "maybe it is very possible jeong yim never got the full transmission or sets have changed or evolved through time and there was no kuen po documentation....maybe jeong yim didn't pass that many sets down and maybe some futsan guys made things up...."
u get it?

[hskwarrior]

一、关于佛山鸿胜馆的源流
　　佛山鸿胜馆由张炎创办于咸丰元年（1851年）。张炎（1824-1893）俗名张亚炎，别字鸿胜，新会县双水乡东凌村人，自幼爱习武。关于张炎的师承，据鸿胜陈盛早期的弟 子唐栋臣载："先曾师事李家领袖李友山，越数载，始从享游"。另又有不少的记载提到张炎后来再拜青草和尚为师，得青草传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术，并灌输反清复明 思想。关于青草和尚是否存在的问题，据老一辈鸿胜馆的师傅介绍，抗日战争前的佛山鸿胜体育会，就有供奉青草 和尚的神位。此外，陈艺林、周逸天在50年代根据周总理的指示撰写并发表在《广东文史资料》的《佛山鸿胜始 末》，也提到青草和尚。新会有关部门提供的《蔡李佛始创人历史》，有以下的记载："享公返村后，为平息众怒，遂修书面一封，交予张炎，嘱其投奔八排山闸建寺之青草和尚（青草僧是当时少林寺掌 门至善之师弟，亦与五经僧有密切之联系），再造高深。公元1831年张炎只有17岁，不得不辞别陈享投奔青 草僧。青草僧看出张炎天份甚高，且具学武骨格，若假以时日必能造就武林奇艺，遂正式列为门下弟子，传以佛门 掌法、拳技、医药之道，并晓以大义，灌输反清复明思想。如此经过八年，张炎二十五岁，已经尽得青草僧之真传 。青草僧允许他早日下山，联络各方志士，继续做反清复明工作。临行时，青草僧赠"鸿胜"二字于张炎，从此张炎改名为张鸿胜，拜别青草僧，重返故乡，顺访京梅。其时享公获悉张炎学成归来，满怀喜悦 ，便以师兄弟礼待之，而张鸿胜念及有今日之成就，亦皆由陈享提携、督导成全，故对其执礼甚恭，并将青草僧所 传之技艺授给陈享，投桃报李。陈、张二位切磋研究，融会贯通，新招频创，名传遐迩。每念及今天之技艺均由少 林寺三位名家师尊所授，蔡李佛之产生，开枝发叶，流传于百粤，历百年不衰。"
　　佛山著名的文史工作者区瑞芝（1900-1994）等以及许多旧报刊刊登的有关蔡李佛、鸿胜馆历史的文章，内容与上文大致相同，不再一一引用。尽管 以上的记载有待进一步考证，但仍不失为研究蔡李佛历史的重要参考，至少从现在所掌握的材料来看，就必须充分 肯定张炎在蔡李佛的形成和发展中的地位。
　　鸿胜馆后由张炎首徒陈盛继任掌门，设馆于衙旁街，今尚在（衙旁街15号），世人称"鸿胜祖馆"。
二、关于鸿胜馆对武术发展的贡献
　　长盛不衰，在南派武术发展中起到重要作用
在清代，广东实际上已经成为南派武术的中心。清中叶前，以洪、刘、蔡、李、莫五大名拳影响最大，但到清未， 蔡李佛拳取代了五大名拳的地位，成为广东最大的流派，其中佛山鸿胜馆活跃在中国武坛长达百年，培育了一代又 一代的武林英才，起到了重要的作用。张炎于咸丰元年（1851）在佛山创办鸿胜馆，传下陈盛、雷灿、黄宽、 张三炳、李恩、谭立、黄四、阮懈等人，其中陈盛在佛山继任馆主，鸿胜馆成员愈万，成为当时中国最大的武馆。 雷灿先后在广州、香港设馆，其门徒谭三，与北派拳师顾汝章易而教，人称"南拳北腿"，名满羊城。后将设在小北的"鸿胜谭馆"改为"北胜"自始成为一大流派。李恩在广州成立省港鸿胜馆，其规模在广州也一时无两。谭立在四邑设立多家鸿胜馆，影响很 大。
　　由于毗邻港澳，以及政治、经济等因素，佛山鸿胜馆武术家很早就走出国门，到海外谋生，特别是在清末在革 命失败，抗日战争初期及新中国成立前夕，都有大批武术家出走香港以至到世界各地，客观上对中国武术起到了传 播作用的。
　　佛山鸿胜馆是中国最早走向世界的武术组织之一。早在咸丰初年，鸿胜馆的创始人张炎就在香港设馆授徒，其 弟子陈盛、阮懈、雷灿等在清末也先后在香港设馆。大革命失败后，鸿胜馆被查封，大批武术家被迫流亡海外。抗 战期间，钱维方在南洋一带设馆授徒，阮懈的弟子刘彬1939年在美国三藩市创立鸿胜馆。四十年代，汤锡、崔 章、江安、龙子祥、陈伦、刘锦东、周庆、马恩、李秋等鸿胜馆三传、四传弟子赴香港发展，成为香港一大拳派。 1965年，关文经在新加坡创办鸿胜馆。1976年，陈锦辉在委内瑞拉创办鸿胜馆。1978年，郑才在马来 西亚设馆。此外，加拿大、美国、英国、日本、意大利、西班牙、澳大利亚、菲律宾、德国、法国、荷兰、瑞士、 比利时、印尼、南非、台湾、澳门、越南等国家和地区也开设了鸿胜馆，传人的踪迹遍布世界各地。崔广源先生的 高足陈锦辉在委内瑞拉授徒23年，任该国国防部、警察总部武术总教官、该国总统、国防部长等政要及数以万计 的军人、警察、平民均学过蔡李佛拳。此外，崔先生的弟子肖民龙、朱树棠、李启泽、李启智等在美国、加拿大等 地传艺，也有不俗的成绩。李冠雄及其弟子李绍雄、王达谋⒙笙曰浴⒗钌倜鞯仍诿拦⒌鹿⒂⒐嫉鹊卮 眨跋焐醮蟆?/font>
三、前仆后继，在历次革命中作出过重要贡献
　　蔡李佛拳兴起的年代，正是中国内忧外患，阶级矛盾日趋尖锐的时代。道光三十年十二月（1851年1月） ，洪秀全、冯云山在广西金田起义，建号太平天国。在太平天国革命中，蔡李佛门人是重要的组织者和参与者。陈 享在石达开处当过幕客，龙子才是太平军的重要将领。张炎也是太平天国革命的重要参加者。据记载，鸿胜馆创办 于咸丰元年（1851年1月），正是太平天国革命爆发之时，建立鸿胜馆，是为了呼应革命。据香港陈享公纪念 总会记载："同治三年（公元一八六四年）……六月十五日，曾国藩、国荃昆仲破机亦，追捕余党。张炎星夜乘舟抵京梅乡，享 公与联袂抵港，寓乡亲陈典堂所营于香港西环之金山庄，寻受美洲三藩市陈氏联宗会聘赴彼邦传技，临别，嘱张炎 以擂槌之'噫'、虎爪之'或'、出脚之'嘀'为暗号，盖为避虎伥也。"另外，鸿胜馆传授的主要拳术套路是平拳、长拳、扣打，其中平拳、长拳含有"太平天国、长安万年"之意，亦可见张炎与太平天国的关系。现在，我们从鸿胜馆传下的拳术、器械套路中，仍可看到许多作为两军对阵 时使用的技击术。
　　太平天国革命失败后，佛山鸿胜馆的武术家并没有停止斗争，1867年，张炎重返佛山复馆，广收门人，并 灌输革命思想。使鸿胜馆成为一个以推翻清政府统治为宗旨的进步组织。鸿胜蔡李佛派的礼桩诗曰："大鹏展翼反天手，魁星踢斗清名留，拱拜五湖复四海，日月拱照万世留"。内"反清复明"四字。可见鸿胜馆从创办时起，就把推翻清朝统治为宗旨。
　　1905年，孙中山组建同盟会，其成员就包括有鸿胜馆的李苏、钱维方等。辛亥革命初，李苏组织了一支鸿 胜馆成员为骨干的农民，并在9月分兵两路，歼灭了驻在佛山的清军，光复佛山。
　　辛亥革命后，鸿胜馆中的骨干分子继续追求真理，1921年春，佛山成立了理发工会和土木建筑工会，会长 分别是鸿胜馆的骨干梁桂华和钱维方。1922年，梁桂华、钱维方加入中国共产党，与王寒烬、梁复燃组成中共 佛山组，领导佛山工人运动，同年，佛山工联会成立，钱维方当选主任。在与反动、黄色工会的斗争中，工联会迅 速壮大。1925年春，佛山工联会改为工人代表大会（工代会），钱维方任执行委被嶂飨汗鸹⒊滦壑尽⑻ 牢⒊乱樟值群枋す莩稍倍荚诠ご嶂械Ｈ沃匾拔瘢枋す葜械墓と司蟛糠侄迹患尤牍ご帷５蹦旯ご崾粝 掠?03个工会，会员共有35000余人，在广东工人运动中举足轻重。1924年5月，吴勤以南浦鸿胜社成 员为骨干，组成南浦家团军，是中国第一支人民自卫武装，名称由廖仲恺所创。农团军成立当日，廖仲恺亲自到会 主持。1925年5月，南海县第四区农民协会在太上庙成立，吴勤任会长。农会成立当日，廖仲恺再次亲临指导 ，可见佛山农民运动受到国民革命政府的高度重视。
　　1926年1月，在国民党第二次大会在广州召开，鉴于国民党右派阴谋在会议期间暗杀到会的中共领导和国 民党左派领袖，中共广东区委委派钱维方、梁桂华、周侠生等组织特别保护大队，队员大多是鸿胜馆的高手，结果 ，圆满完成了任务。
　　1927年4月12日，蒋介石发动政变，4月15日，佛山市工代会、南海四区农协会，鸿胜馆同时被查封 ，佛山一大批革命志士包括相当一部分鸿胜馆的成员被杀害。此后钱维方、梁桂华、吴勤等坚持地下斗争，参与了 广州起义，共中梁桂华在广州起义时任工人赤卫队副总指挥，在战斗中负伤被捕，最后英勇就义。
1937年，逃亡到香港的钱维方、吴勤回到佛山，主持刚恢复的鸿胜体育会。他们在馆内开设杀敌大刀教练班， 并到市内各学校教授武艺。在十九路军与日寇在上海激战期间，当时的鸿胜馆国术部主任陈艺林还应中华国术总会 邀请到上海演示大刀杀敌术，并被选中向全国推广。1938年10月，佛山沦陷前夕，吴勤结束鸿胜馆馆务，率 200多位鸿胜馆成员到南海石啃乡组成抗日游击队。后来，这支队伍取得广州市区游击第二支队番号，发展至数 千人，成为中国共产党直接领导的抗日武装力量，给予日伪军以沉重打击。1942年5月，吴勤被国民党别动军 林小亚杀害。
　　佛山鸿胜馆的武术家前仆后继，从旧民主主义革命到抗日战争，坚持革命斗争近100年，在中国武术发展史 上写下了光辉的一页。


四、挫强敌，为振兴武术作出了重要贡献
　　清未民初，外国拳师在中国各地四处横行，中国武术受到很大的冲击。这一时期，鸿胜馆的武术家以大无畏的 气慨和精湛的武功，多次打败外国大力士，洗脱了"东亚病夫"的耻辱。
　　光绪年间，陈盛在香港以中阳插槌击伤一英国警察。
　　光绪年间，一西洋大力士在香港西环太平戏院设擂，扬言有人打败他，奉送一桶白银此人身高力大，一拳之力 达500磅，并规定按西洋拳规则比武。故擂台设了一个多月，有几十名中国拳师败在他的手下。鸿胜馆的刘忠认 为有辱中国人，决意拼死与之一战，经过反复观看比武，找出破敌的对策，以"跪马逼铮"重创对手（后该拳师伤重不治）。
　　1946年，谭三的弟子刘锦东在广州西关模范戏院打败了外国大力士马加诺。
　　1946年陈盛的徒弟在佛山大戏院打败白俄拳师阿伦哥。
　　近年，鸿胜馆的传人在世界各地的各类大赛中也取得很好的成绩。1996年，陈锦辉的弟子希礼道在香港举 行的世界功夫群英会中打败泰国拳王阿叻，是中国功夫首次在正式世界大赛中打败泰拳王的战例。
　　在中国各地的武术组织中，能够象鸿胜馆有这样的战胜外国拳师的实例绝无仅有。这鸿胜馆对中国武术的又一 大贡献。
　　佛山鸿胜馆在九八年三月复馆后，发展很快。到2001年10月，佛山鸿胜馆成立150周年庆典时，已有 会员100多人。并连续三年参加春节佛山传统狮艺大赛，均得到最佳传统奖，九九年，佛山四十头南狮代表广东 省参加建国五十周年庆典，鸿胜馆就有两头狮和四位师傅赴京表演，从九八年开始，佛山历届武术节，鸿胜馆的成 员都得到喔鼋毕睢?/font>

[hskwarrior]

我派拳技，始于新会、佛山，而盛行于广东各地，素以口口相传，甚少有文字之纪述，再加上历代宗师的籍贯不同 ，乡音各异例如扫捶读成哨捶，昂掌读为钢掌等，若再不加以考证，就失去其本来意义，本人有见及此，先将其辨 证以训门人。
　　一、北胜支流横桩开式等三——七式，有称为扑翼手、白鹤亮翅，本人则以“盘桥佛指及双穿掌 为名”
　　二、标马；乃飙马之吴。（飙——动而快速也）
　　三、扭马、麒麟步，一式两名，但偷马或偷步，败马或败步则须明确分辨，凡接近敌人的叫偷，远离敌人的叫 败。
　　四、丁字马、子午马、弓箭步，名异而实同，然而我派之抛捶则属两仪马（子午者，北与南也；两面三刀仪者 ，东与西也，又说：两仪生四象，四象生八卦）简单地说：子午马——向正前方攻击。两仪马——向侧面攻击。因 而有所不同。
　　五、插捶中有阴、阳、平、昂，而掌法中有“四平顶掌”“挂捶撑掌”均为阴阳掌，为什么有叫“朝手钢掌” 为缠手昂掌属阳掌，此亦乡音之误也。
　　六、拐马抛须、拐马抛腮，摆马抛梳……莫衷一是，叫它“败马挂捶”或“偷步挂捶”，直接了 当。
　　七、车轮滚虎、车轮滚鼓，就成了高山滚鼓，扑通扑通，（不通不通）叫它“走马挂扫”多明确 。
　　八、减手、间手、耕手，叫它“照镜手”清晰明 。
　　九、推弹扫捶，改为“卸马盘扫”。

[hskwarrior]

“佛家”（少林派）是传自少林寺一位高僧杏隐(清草)禅师所领悟出来的一套独特技击术之称号。从张鸿胜祖师 上八排山，跟随杏隐禅师学技，後称“佛家（鸿胜）”，直至第三传人谭三师公在广州小北设馆授徒，再始创为“ 佛家（北胜）”。
　　“佛家”是一门擅长以长桥大马，配合大架、少架及九宫步法的技击术。传统锻练方法，主要是从飞禽走兽的 五形、五势并配合五行和外功，来作为授徒和自我训练。 五形就是指龙(蛇)、虎、豹、鹤、猴等，从他们的举动和静态,来领略形态向站桩方面练功，用来加强防守和攻 击力。正如“佛家”初步基础功夫扯拳和迫马，就是这样悟创的。五势就是从龙(蛇)，虎、豹、鹤、猴等，其具 有不同的自卫和攻击姿势，向拳术和腿法作为发展技击的技术。作解如下： 龙(蛇)是以静制动的，在被攻击或作主动攻击时，是用直线的快速攻击和紧迫的缠斗来应付敌方来犯的。“佛家 ”主要的拳术插槌就是这样创造出来，因作为直拳的攻击，去势必然要直，速度要求就愈快速，直拳去势速度愈高 ，撞击力就愈猛，甚至会有穿透的劲力。“佛家”插槌的运用方式，主要从阴、阳、平、侧再归纳一起，就成为“ 佛家”攻击力甚强的左右连环插挝了。说到攻击的气势，就要以虎为榜样，因虎由静至动的扑击速度，是勇猛非常 ，一般动物是很难抵挡的。所以“佛家”中的挂槌、哨、抛槌、槌挂、反撞和标撞，就像虎般凶猛的扑势，用沉雄 的腰马，配合九宫步法，向一个或以上的敌人追击。至於豹，除了有虎上述的优点外，它的扑擒缠斗，是所有动物 之中最残酷的。豹有疾劲的速度、腰腿弹力强的优点外，还要令对手不论强弱，非决处於死地不罢休。所以在用於 搏击时，斗志要顽强，不可心软亦不可轻敌，便可达到模仿虎豹的势。最後说到鹤和猴，鹤最厉害的地方，并不是 它的尖咀，而是它那对强而有劲的翅膀，当有蛇或其他野兽要向它攻击时，它的一对翅膀除会向内收拢，来保护自 己外，还会借助收拢时所含蓄的势，再向攻击它的敌人，向外发出猛而有劲的杀伤力。所以“佛家”在练提劲、横 劲和拥劲时，从五势之中，必定向鹤来借镜。“佛家”在於练习或搏击时，除了有上述四势之外，猴势亦是重要的 ；因猴不论闪身，跳跃和翻腾，都是非常灵活的，这便是猴子保护自己的方法之一。所以“佛家”除了懂得攻击之 外，还要懂得怎样去坚固防守，来保护自己身体各部份，因此在练习时便要像猴子般灵敏地，去做好马步的走位， 身形闪身的变化和腰马的吞吐，才能达到以守为攻，连消带打的境界。人类是万物之灵，栽谘盗肥保遣豢赡芟 袷蘩喽锇悖醋龀鱿袼堑男翁投鳌３宋逍挝迨仆猓挂梦逍欣磁浜希逍幸嗉词恰吧怼⑹帧⒀邸⒉健 ⒎ā保嘟庾魃硇巍⑹址ā⒀鄯ā⒉椒ê捅旧碜约旱姆牛ㄋ礁鋈思际酰?
　　“佛家”最重要的是步法，走位要轻快，闪身要灵活。步法定以迫马为基础，计有四平马、弓式、扭马、吊马 和卸马，达到纯熟时，就可配合“佛家”的主要拳术：插槌、挂槌、哨槌鎚、抛槌、鞭槌、钉槌、推槌、反撞和标 撞等，再用掌法：劈掌、顶掌、降掌、分掌和擒掌等；腿法有：直踢、直蹬、横蹬、踏腿、扫腿和推弹腿等；其他 有顶挣、跪挣、标指和虎爪等混合一起，用“五形”、“五势”、“五行”来配合练习。佛家祖先就是这样创出了 一套名叫“十大架式”的技击拳术，後来再由张鸿胜祖师等人，再从“十大架式”中另研出“十字”“扣打”、“ 四平”等三套名拳术至今。“十大架式”是一套防守兼攻击的“佛家”拳种，长距离搏击就用“大架”，短距离埋 身搏击就要用“小架”。
　　除了以上练法外，还要加紧常练“扯拳”(即站桩)和“外功”即如抛石锁(哑铃)、拍沙袋、迫沙包等，练 习时最好有导师从旁指导，在自我训练期内，必须衡量自己本身体能的需要去练，这样才会有进步!

　　　　　　　　　　（刘锦东口述、其子刘伟业笔录）

[hskwarrior]

now you know i don't read or write chinese too well,

but if you do, you will see that my story does not fall far from the tree.

[iron_silk]

chan heung was "One" of Jeong Yim's teachers.
i never said there was "No" connection, i said Chan Heung did not develop Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut, Jeong Yim did. the fut san branches do acknowledge Chan Heung as being one of the teachers, but in the end, the fut san Hung Sing Branch is Jeong Yim's doing, plain and simple. there are no indications of Chan Heung anywhere in the schools at all.


Frank I thought the only problem was trying to make Jeong Yim "co-founder" of CLF while in truth (and I am glad you agreed now) his CLF has long changed from the source and is his own. Much like Hung Gar has Wong Fei Hung v.s. rare Village versions or Ha Say Fu etc...

I don't think anybody disagree with that. Jeong Yim made it his own or at least his line did. But Chan Heung is still the founder of CLF much like Hung Hei Gwoon no matter which style of Hung Gar is still the founder.

That's why Tam Sam is the originator of Buk Sing CLF and no-one tries to make him the third co-founder of CLF.

That's why you said they all have Chan Heung on the alter. So that's it.

[hskwarrior]

Iron Silk

sorry bro. I said the Not one Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon have Chan Heung on their walls. And I wanted to know why?

I agree that Jeong Yim made his gung fu his own. and so did Tam Sam.

If we were to combine Choy Lee Fut from the CHan, Hung Sing and Buk Sing Kwoons then we could have 3 founders of Modern Day Choy Lee Fut.

as long as there are three separate branches, only two teach the same material, and one doesn't we will always have 3 separate branches.

it is up to the current generations if they choose, to break the chains, and do something about uniting the whole choy lee fut community.

As long as we stick together and stop making comments about the others history we can survive for many many more centuries.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

here you go sucka!!!!!!


Opens inflammation foundation great wild goose victory Wu Xue



Issues the time: 2004.11.10 14:05 origins: South metropolis newspaper

　　Opens inflammation alias Zhang Hongsheng, had been born in 1824, east the Guangdong Sunwui Hunan water ballast insults 村人.
　　Zhang Yan liked 习武 since childhood, once did obeisance Li Youshan was the teacher, latter 习武 along with Chen Xiang, when 17 years old Chen enjoyed the recommendation to go to Guangxi eight row of Shan Zhajian the temple green grass buddhist priest, the scholarship eight years, had to pass on inside and outside Buddhism technique and the medical skill and so on the Eight Diagrams fist. The green grass buddhist priest enjoins to open the inflammation to descend a mountain the contact all quarters person of integrity 反清复明, and presents as a gift "the great wild goose victory" two characters to give Zhang Yanwei. "The great wild goose" and "Hong" (clearly will found a country reign title of Hongwu Emperor Zhu Yuanzhang) the unison, the implication 反清复明 the enterprise to gain the final victory.
　　After Zhang Yanxue becomes the return, pays a visit Chen to enjoy, will learn the green grass buddhist priest will teach the Chinese boxing extension will give to Chen enjoys, two people Cai, Li Jiaquan and Buddhism Chinese boxing will carry on the reorganization, will create Cai Li Fuquan.
　　In 1851 Zhang Yan in the Foshan establishment great wild goose victory hall, settled "the government official not to teach, the local tyrant feudal bully teaches, the hoodlum vagabond did not teach" "three not to teach" 戒条. Creates the hall soon, Zhang Yan joins in the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom revolution, teaches the skill in wushu in the armed forces. After the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom revolutionizes the defeat, Zhang Yan becomes a fugitive Hong Kong, to 1867, returned to Foshan. Hereafter, passes on the main skill at martial arts named even fist, the long-range punch, Italy is "Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, the Chang An ten thousand years".
　　In 1893, Zhang Yanyin infected cold, abundantly escorted returning to home village by Chen, died of illness in the home, died at the age of 69 years old. Now world each place great wild goose victory disciple thousands, does not lack achievement remarkable, but Foshan great wild goose victory hall, also becomes China to be biggest and the active time longest martial arts organization.
　　Selects for writing: Newspaper Reporter He Huiwen

[hskwarrior]

i'm sorry ........


what did you say about Jeong Yim and the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon?

[extrajoseph]

but joseph,
i keep telling you that Chan Heung's branch has nothing to do with us, but you try to keep telling me chan POV on my branch. doesn't seem shady to you?

Hi Frank,

If Chan Heung has nothing to do with you, then the logical conclusion is that you are not doing CLF. You should call what you do Jeong Gar Kuen or Futsan Hung Sing Kuen, that would solve all our problems.

We don't have to argue with you any more about CLF history because you are not doing CLF, you have your own style, your own name and your own history.

So don't call yourself a CLF man, you are not one of us any more, you are a Futsan Man.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

Studies the skill at martial arts 几经周折
　　According to the great wild goose victory disciple stated that, opened the inflammation once Shi Congli the friend mountain, Chen Xiang and the green grass buddhist priest, had winding. Sunwui person Chen Xiang since childhood 习武, studies Cai the Li two Chinese boxing, was at that time the Beijing Mei Xiang chief chief instructor. Zhang Yan father's younger brother Zhang Kun is the Chen Xiang old junction, on first Zhang Kundai zhang Yandao Chen enjoys the hanger-on, hoped Chen enjoys closes up shop the inflammation is the person. At that time but had the village gauge public proclamation, all did not receive the not of the same surname juniors study military, therefore Chen enjoyed have to lets open the inflammation to stay behind, helped to make tea sweeps the floor, handles the odd job.
　　At that time Zhang Yansui only then 12 years old, but instinct good military time, Chen enjoys the disciple 习武, opens the inflammation to settle down surely pays attention watches, and further because its talent is high, gradually the always doing nothing but has becomes. After afterwards Chen Xiang knew, was moved by his sincerity and the spirit, thereupon each late night started to open the inflammation to instruct devotedly, so passed through for five years, Zhang Yanjin results in Chen to enjoy the true line, but ever did not reveal Yu Xingji.
　　On first Chen enjoys the matter to egress, the numerous disciples gather in 演武厅, trains the style, everybody sees Zhang Yan to clean in the one side, bullies him to be young also is the not of the same surname person, then forces him to compete with Wugong, Zhang Yan repeatedly turns down, various disciples bully by the audiences widowed, compels to open the inflammation to get rid of. Could not think opens the inflammation as soon as to get rid of, then Lian Shangshu person. This field fights offends somebody is not heavy, but an inflammation resulted in matter of the true line on also not to be able to hide the truth from in again the village the people. Chen Xiangwei subsides the audiences to get angry, thereupon edits a book to give opens the inflammation, lets him go for shelter in eight row of Shan Zhajian the temple green grass buddhist priest, continues to pursue advanced studies. But Zhang Yanzhei goes is 8 years, results in the green grass buddhist priest true line, returns to the Beijing plum. Chen Xiang knew Zhang Yanxue becomes the return, fills with joyfully, then treats courteously it by the fellow apprentices, but Zhang Yanye the exchange of gifts between friends, the technique which passes on the green grass buddhist priest gives to Chen enjoys, two people achieve mastery through a comprehensive study of a subject three Chinese boxing, originate Cai Li Fuquan.
　　

　　Receives Chen to be abundant as soon as fights the priests and disciples
　　Chen Sheng is the Zhang Yan first person, has inherited his clothes earthen bowl. Zhang Yanshou Chen is abundant, it is said also some section of small stories.
　　When Chen Shengben was Zhou Jinbiao disciple, Guangxu five (in 1883) the Chen abundant 19 years old, Zhou Jinbiao had to return to home village, to lead Chen Shengdao zhang Yanchu, hoped he transferred does obeisance Zhang Yanwei the teacher, continued to pursue advanced studies. Chen Sheng sees Zhang Yan apprentice which there practices boxing, leaves the fist to empty long, thinks otherwise greatly. Zhang Yan knew in the heart it refuses to accept, also wants to have a look Chen Sheng the martial arts attainments, thereupon is called own apprentice and Chen Shengbi the fist. Under as soon as compares, does not have is really the Chen Sheng match.
　　Chen abundant is complacent, opens the inflammation as soon as to smile said that, "The old man tries!" Chen abundant is still at a moderate pace, comes out meets incurs.
　　Zhang Yan said that, "I now want you to pour in east side, you must carefully pay attention!" 23 fists feet, Chen is abundant "pa" is hurled pours in east side; Zhang Yanba he helps up to say that, "You too were negligent a moment ago, now I want you to fall in the west, you had the lesson to have to be careful!" Somehow first, Chen is abundant "pa" is hurled pours in the west.
　　Chen Shengzhan, Zhang Yan said that, "This secondary you pour in among." Really insufficient several round, Chen is abundant "pa" is hurled pours in among. Chen Sheng admiringly acknowledges as teacher now at last, afterwards the process trained hard, Chen Shengjin resulted in the true line, and became Zhang Yan the clothes earthen bowl to teach other people.
　In in the great wild goose victory hall nearly hundred years history, the martial arts world celebrity pour forth, Zhang Yan disciple has Chen Sheng, Lei Can, Li En, Huang Kuan and so on; In second generation of disciple, Chen abundant hanger-on rich Uygur side, Li Wang, Tang Xi, Chen Xiongzhi, Huang Le and so on; The thunder Can hanger-on has Tan three and so on; The Li graciousness hanger-on has Liu Zhong, Fang Yushu, the Comte light, Xia Bici, a Cai bridge, the Cai two bridges, Chen Xiru; The yellow four hangers-on have He Yi; Opens three splendid hangers-on to have not the light, the Ruan luck; Ruan is the hanger-on has Liu Bin and so on.
　　The end of the Qing at the beginning of people, the foreign master boxer ran amuck in all directions in Chinese each place, the Chinese martial arts were under the very big impact. This time, the great wild goose victory hall martial arts by the dauntless spirit and exquisite Wugong, defeat the foreign strongman many times, has eluted "东亚病夫" shame: In 1946, Tan three disciples Liu Jindong closed the model theater west Guangzhou to defeat foreign strongman horse Ganoe; In 1946, the Chen Sheng apprentice defeated the Russian master boxer arran elder brother in the Foshan theater. Recent years, great wild goose victory hall teaching other people also obtained the very good result in world each place each kind of big game, in 1996, the Chen Jinhui disciple hoped ritual in the world time heroes gathering which held in Hong Kong to defeat the Thai boxing champion Arab League abbr singapore, was the Chinese time defeats the peaceful boxing champion for the first time in the official world big game the combat example.
　　The near for dozens of years, north victory Cai Li Buddha each generation produces talented people, plays in Cai Li Fuquan promoted aspect to the extremely vital role. Cai bridge disciple Guan Wenjing in 1966 in Singapore establishment great wild goose victory hall, in 1968 no matter what Singapore Department of Defense people guard unit broadsword team self-defense technique head coach. Cui Guangyuan (his/her the father Cui Zhangwei Chen Sheng disciple) supposes great wild goose victory hall many years in Hong Kong, promotes Cai the Li Buddha skill at martial arts, the disciple dominates an area many times the arena big game which the Hong Kong China country technique general meeting sponsors. Its disciple Chen Jinhui, in Venezuela no matter what the navy military police head coach, Department of Defense and the police headquarters martial arts drillmaster, once attained this country police headquarters, the Department of Defense highest medal of honor. Recent years, Chen Jinhui also in country and so on US, Colombia supposed the hall, positively promoted Cai Li Fuquan. In addition, Cui Guangyuan disciple Xiao Minlong, Zhu Shu Tang, Li Qi Ze, Li Zhiwei and so on also has not the vulgar result in the overseas.
　　Now, dozens of countries and the area and so on Hong Kong, Aomen, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Taiwan, Australia, Canada, US, England, Scotland, Germany, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Venezuela, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina all have great wild goose victory Cai Li Fu to teach other people.
　　In March, 1998, Foshan Cai Li Fuhong the victory hall was tenable, and in aspect and so on excavation and reorganization tradition martial arts, lion skill obtained the encouraging result. Awake in the lion big game in the Foshan martial arts festival and the whole city, obtains many award items. Sent out representative to participate in the capital to celebrate the People's Republic of China 50th anniversary celebration to awake the lion to perform and to welcome in 2000 the Foshan fall scenery to go on patrol greatly up to the fall scenery happy festival opening ceremony, prepared the high praise.

[hskwarrior]

i have no problem with calling it that.

you don't think it was called that in the beginning?

according to the elders, it wasn't until at least the 3rd and 4th generations it was masters of other styles that referred to what we do as a style with elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga.

but we are called choy lee fut and are not going anywhere.

and joseph there lies in the reason the choy lee fut world is in shambles. you think we should call ourselves Hung Sing Kuen, and you still say because its not chan heungs choy lee fut than its not choy lee fut? you are so full of bs.

because of people like you CLF will never unite.

[extrajoseph]

i'm sorry ........


what did you say about Jeong Yim and the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon?

I said Jeong Yim and the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon is not doing CLF, because if what you claimed is true then they do a style of Kung Fu taught to Jeong Yim by three different teachers and only one of them was Chan Heung.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah never claim to be a "Choy Lee Fut guy" i have said and will always say i am a Hung Sing man!!!!!!


where did i lie?

hsk

[extrajoseph]

i have no problem with calling it that.

you don't think it was called that in the beginning?

according to the elders, it wasn't until at least the 3rd and 4th generations it was masters of other styles that referred to what we do as a style with elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga.

but we are called choy lee fut and are not going anywhere.

and joseph there lies in the reason the choy lee fut world is in shambles. you think we should call ourselves Hung Sing Kuen, and you still say because its not chan heungs choy lee fut than its not choy lee fut? you are so full of bs.

because of people like you CLF will never unite.

To be frank Frank,

We don't want people like you, go and start your own style with your own name, your own history and your own birthplace, just leave us alone.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

oh yeah never claim to be a "Choy Lee Fut guy" i have said and will always say i am a Hung Sing man!!!!!!
where did i lie?
hsk

Hi Frank,

Then don't mention CLF any more, just call your style Hung Sing Kuen and your are a Hung Sing Man and we are CLF.

Now we can all have some peace.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

are you changing your tone now joseph?

haven't you always said that Jeong Yim was the most trusted and most loyal student of Chan Heung? Someone who had made great contributions to the development of Choy Lee Fut?

now what are you saying brother Joseph?

If i ask you "what is Choy Lee Fut" and you respond "gung fu created by Chan Heung" then i will ask you "then what do the Fut San Hung Sing and Buk Sing doing then?

Are you telling me that Chan Family Choy Lee Fut does not recognize Hung Sing and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut as "Choy Lee Fut" because we don't practice choy lee fut taught by chan heung?

What are you saying joseph?

[iron_silk]

He's got you there Frank.

So I guess that's it...no more CLF dispute.

[hskwarrior]

you seem like a very bitter bitter man brother joseph.

i wonder why?

you know i always told you from the beginning long ago joseph that the fut san hung sing kwoon history will become known. I have not lied.

now the best you can do is say "don't claim to be CLF then"

If you have a problem with our two branches calling ourselves choy lee fut then bring it up with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. you said you know Master wong yourself. didn't you? why don't you complain to him about his history? or has he told you not to bother him with that?

i told you long ago joseph. i told you.

[Kennyfist]

i have no problem with calling it that.

you don't think it was called that in the beginning?

according to the elders, it wasn't until at least the 3rd and 4th generations it was masters of other styles that referred to what we do as a style with elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga.

but we are called choy lee fut and are not going anywhere.

and joseph there lies in the reason the choy lee fut world is in shambles. you think we should call ourselves Hung Sing Kuen, and you still say because its not chan heungs choy lee fut than its not choy lee fut? you are so full of bs.

because of people like you CLF will never unite.

Hsk,
Quote:"you don't think it was called that in the beginning?

according to the elders, it wasn't until at least the 3rd and 4th generations it was masters of other styles that referred to what we do as a style with elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga."
So according to you the futsan guys jeong yim (1st gen?) and chan ngau sing (2nd gen) did not call their art choy lee fut?
Now compare to chan heung (1st gen), chan koon pak (2nd gen), chan yiu chi (3rd gen) all called their arts choy lee fut!
Then how can jeong yim be considered "true founder" or "co-founder" ?:rolleyes:

u get it?

[extrajoseph]

are you changing your tone now joseph?

haven't you always said that Jeong Yim was the most trusted and most loyal student of Chan Heung? Someone who had made great contributions to the development of Choy Lee Fut?

now what are you saying brother Joseph?

If i ask you "what is Choy Lee Fut" and you respond "gung fu created by Chan Heung" then i will ask you "then what do the Fut San Hung Sing and Buk Sing doing then?

Are you telling me that Chan Family Choy Lee Fut does not recognize Hung Sing and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut as "Choy Lee Fut" because we don't practice choy lee fut taught by chan heung?

What are you saying joseph?

Frank,

CLF was created by Chan Heung, Futsan Hung Sing and Guangzhou Buk Sing were two place names where CLF thrived but the people there belonged to Chan Heung's lineage and always will. You can't change your father or grandfather or great grandfather just becuase you wanted to!

But you can change your name and we recognize you as long as you call yourself CLF, otherwise please use another name like they do all the time by de-poll and we don't have to bother with you any more.

EJ

EJ

[Kennyfist]

now, thats according to your chan family, if it doen't come from Fut San Hung Sing it isn't fut san hung sing.

you are a joke joseph, answer me, why doesn't the fut san hung sing kwoon or its people have chan heung up on the wall in the alter?

Hsk,
Quote: "why doesn't the fut san hung sing kwoon or its people have chan heung up on the wall in the alter"

Well, if they did, then it wouldn't help them if they are trying to change history, would it?:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

actually iron silk,

i got him. he tried to pass it off as if he possessed the knowledge of Jeong Yim and His Hung Sing Kwoon. But I am not so uneducated in Jeong Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon history at all.

now, I don't know when and how Jeong Yim's school called his style Choy Lee Fut, but it has been so for decades and no one has ever disputed Jeong Yim's place in Choy Lee Fut ever.

but only the Chan Family history has ever been told on the internet before my sifu put up the history of Jeong Yim on hungsing.com. we have told our story almost a decade ago and look at what the fut san hsk has published and we obviously tell the same story.

Qoute me on this: "All I wanted from the beginning was for Jeong Yim to have his due respect and acknoweldgement. I told of our history and all the Chan people jumped down my throat because they had never heard things like i was saying.

now that i have proven i am not the only one telling the very same history as i do, joseph is very upset about it.

so again, as long as Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon calls their Gung Fu "Choy Lee Fut" i will do the same.

But in the end i want the world to know as they read this, according to Joseph-who represents the Chan Family, and Iron Silk you seem to agree with him, say that Since Jeong Yim had more teachers in his background than Chan Heung, and Jeong Yim developed his own type of gung fu which is choy lee fut -being that chan heung taught jeong yim the Choy and Lee styles and maybe some Hung stuff (from Chan Yuen Wu) but Jeong Yim already has some Lee Yau San stuff, and that of Monk Ching Cho, ......Chan Family Choy Lee Fut Disciple Joseph says we shouldn't call ourselves "Choy Lee Fut?"

Do you think that will happen?

hsk

[Kennyfist]

here you go sucka!!!!!!


Opens inflammation foundation great wild goose victory Wu Xue



Issues the time: 2004.11.10 14:05 origins: South metropolis newspaper

　　Opens inflammation alias Zhang Hongsheng, had been born in 1824, east the Guangdong Sunwui Hunan water ballast insults 村人.
　　Zhang Yan liked 习武 since childhood, once did obeisance Li Youshan was the teacher, latter 习武 along with Chen Xiang, when 17 years old Chen enjoyed the recommendation to go to Guangxi eight row of Shan Zhajian the temple green grass buddhist priest, the scholarship eight years, had to pass on inside and outside Buddhism technique and the medical skill and so on the Eight Diagrams fist. The green grass buddhist priest enjoins to open the inflammation to descend a mountain the contact all quarters person of integrity 反清复明, and presents as a gift "the great wild goose victory" two characters to give Zhang Yanwei. "The great wild goose" and "Hong" (clearly will found a country reign title of Hongwu Emperor Zhu Yuanzhang) the unison, the implication 反清复明 the enterprise to gain the final victory.
　　After Zhang Yanxue becomes the return, pays a visit Chen to enjoy, will learn the green grass buddhist priest will teach the Chinese boxing extension will give to Chen enjoys, two people Cai, Li Jiaquan and Buddhism Chinese boxing will carry on the reorganization, will create Cai Li Fuquan.
　　In 1851 Zhang Yan in the Foshan establishment great wild goose victory hall, settled "the government official not to teach, the local tyrant feudal bully teaches, the hoodlum vagabond did not teach" "three not to teach" 戒条. Creates the hall soon, Zhang Yan joins in the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom revolution, teaches the skill in wushu in the armed forces. After the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom revolutionizes the defeat, Zhang Yan becomes a fugitive Hong Kong, to 1867, returned to Foshan. Hereafter, passes on the main skill at martial arts named even fist, the long-range punch, Italy is "Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, the Chang An ten thousand years".
　　In 1893, Zhang Yanyin infected cold, abundantly escorted returning to home village by Chen, died of illness in the home, died at the age of 69 years old. Now world each place great wild goose victory disciple thousands, does not lack achievement remarkable, but Foshan great wild goose victory hall, also becomes China to be biggest and the active time longest martial arts organization.
　　Selects for writing: Newspaper Reporter He Huiwen

Hsk,
You posted something that contradicts (yet again?) your claims!
You still claim jeong yim born in 1814? Or are you going to chang it to 1824 now?

Well if you claim 1824, and according to your elders jeong yim met and started to learn from chan heung at 12 yrs of age then that would be 1836 when clf was founded! So how could jeong yim be "true founder" or "co-founder" of clf ?:rolleyes: ....
u get that?

And also your story that jeong yim learnt from green grass monk in 1831.......well jeong would be 7 yrs old and not yet met chan heung....so how could chan heung send jeong yim to green grass monk? :rolleyes:

u get that too?

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

you have no choice but to accept the fact that we are "HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT"

And no, not the King Mui Great Sage Hung branch, we are Fut San Hung SIng (Glorious Victory formely called Hung Victory).

see, joseph you try to make me look bad, but i know the history of my branch.
let me tell it, and i'll let you tell yours.

you need to stop creating the drama because no one (unless kenny did) asked you to continue this drama. kennypoop wouldn't leave it alone and now you won't huh? who's starting all the trouble now?

see, if i let you speak all the time joseph you sound like you know what you are talking about. but when you speak on the Hung Sing Kwoon, you can't. its not your territory.

it's mine.

peace.

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

Quote:"while i the very encouraging emails and responces like "if there were more gung fu people like you there would less bs in the kung fu world".

What? Should I laugh or is it so ridiculous its not funny........?:eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote: "Joseph, do you even know that according to the fut san branch that one of Jeong Yim's sifu's was actually Lee Yau San?"

And where is the evidence? If no evidence then the attempts at changing history are utterly pathetic and ridiculous! Now jeong yim learns from chan heung's teacher! Now what about choy fook and chan yuen wu? When are they next?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HSK,
SO WHO'S NEXT IN FUTSAN PROCESS OF CHANGING HISTORY? IS IT CHOY FOOK? OR CHAN YUEN WU?:rolleyes:

[Kennyfist]

hsk,
You Told Your Story.....you Just Failed To Back It Up With Evidence.....and Not Only That, There Are So Many Contradictions Which You Don't Seem Able To Address!
Another Thing, What Story Are You Telling? You Change Your Story A Lot ?

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

can you please answer why it is you and kenny NEVER post at the same time?
the reason i ask is when you are on he is off. when you are off he is on?

also, why did you re-appear after kenny fist did? you two disappeared at the same time last time and now you re-appear together?

you know i predicted your return as soon as kennypoop showed up.

and i was right again.

oh yeah, since you are the AUTHORITY in telling all Hung Sing Kwoon's and Buk Sing Kwoon's to stop calling ourselves "Choy Lee Fut" you will have to answer to the whole lot of us........Can we get a number or possibly an email where we can send our concerns for you to address?

that was pretty lofty for you to say that Jeong Yim's lineage (which includes Buk Sing) to stop calling ourselves "Choy Lee Fut".

Big Cahonies, Man!!!!!:eek:

[extrajoseph]

Joseph,
see, if i let you speak all the time joseph you sound like you know what you are talking about. but when you speak on the Hung Sing Kwoon, you can't. its not your territory.
it's mine.
peace.

Sure Frank,

You are a Hung Sing Man and you know all about your Hung Sing history and you do Hung Sing Kuen but you are not CLF, so don't pretend to be one of us.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

joseph,

[oh yeah, since you are the AUTHORITY in telling all Hung Sing Kwoon's and Buk Sing Kwoon's to stop calling ourselves "Choy Lee Fut" you will have to answer to the whole lot of us........Can we get a number or possibly an email where we can send our concerns for you to address?

Big Cahonies, Man!!!!!:eek:

No Frank,

They have not insulted and disowned Chan Heung like the way you do, they have always considered themselves to be CLF so they are CLF.

You, as an individual on the other hand, is not CLF. You are a Hung Sing "Great Victory" Man but not one of us.

So don't talk to us about CLF techniques or CLF history or CLF kuen po, because, as a disrespectful individual, you are not CLF. You have disgraced and outcasted yourself.

I don't have to answer the lot because only you have disowned Chan Heung and CLF, not them. They don't act like you!.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

OK FOLKS, YOU HEARD IT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH.

ACCORDING TO EJ-EXTRAJOSEPH- A WELL KNOWN SUPPORTER OF THE CHAN FAMILY---ACCORDING TO HIM HE'S IN MONTREAL CANADA-- HE HAS SPOKEN.

JOSEPH'S CHAN FAMILY DECREE:

HEAR YEE, HEAR YEE, I HAVE DECREED HERE ON MONDAY MARCH 06, 2006 THAT ANY ONE FROM THE JEONG YIM FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON BRANCH (WHICH INCLUDES BUK SING) SHALL NOT FROM THIS DAY FORWARD BE RECOGNIZED AS NOR SHALL THEY CALL THEMSELVES "CHOY LEE FUT".

I HAVE SPOKEN!!!

* actual comments recorded by Hung Sing Kwoon Warrior. Copyrigt 2006

[hskwarrior]

oh no joseph,

you don't have the power. you cannot outcast me. you have nothing to do with me nor my branch nor my school.

the problems lays with is that you are mad that i told the history of jeong hung sing. you tried to say i was fabricating the history to change it. however i have today proven to you that it was me who told the world our history. it came from jeong yim.

however, you seem to think that the buk sing and hung sing follow chan heung but they don't.

all i did was tell the hung sing history as we have it, and it states things contradictory to that of the chan family and therein lies the problem and the old war that happened long before me.

i never started this war my brother joseph. you and the chan family have just now wanted us to tell our story. it would have been better that way, right?

however, we do have a story. and it does conflict with the way chan family tells it.

but they tell their story not ours. we tell ours. you tell yours.

see, we follow Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. I am whatever they are. But they don't pay homage to Chan Heung and thats a problem for you. but thats not my problem.

So by you saying that the fut san hung sing kwoon shouldn't call ourselves falls on your shoulders not mine.

sorry dude.

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

You are not a CLF man so don't try to be one. CLF has a founder called Chan Heung and if you don't think so then you are not one of us. Its that simple!

EJ

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

This quote came from the English webpage of Foshan Hong Sheng Guan:

Chen Xiang(1805-1875)enjoyed the prestige of the originator of Cai-Li-Fo.

http://www.hongshengguan.com/indexe.htm

They are CLF men and you are not!

EJ

[CLFNole]

This whole thing is just getting off the wall.

Now Jeurng Yim followed Lay Yau San? He was 12 when he went to Chan Hueng, although from the dates that would seem a bit unlikely for me. Then he went to the GGM at 17. When did he train with Lay Yau San and how are you sure he did because you said you were sure. Just wondering how you would be sure as very few of us have seen Lay Gar.

Personally, I don't drink the chinese government kool-aid. Look at Siu Lum Gee it is basically China's version of Disneyworld. You go there basically order off a menu and learn. It is wushu with a monk's bow opening. Then all of a sudden the South Siu Lum Temple is discovered and now you can go there and learn southern kung fu. Next its Fut San with the Hung Kuen, Wing Chun and CLF having things popped up that were not there before. I have spoken with my sifus and sihings before and this stuff is generally newer.

The chinese (just like Americans) are very "goo waht", they understand that westerners have a passion for martial arts and are doing there best to bring people there for monetary gains.

The story keeps changing way too much for me.

[hskwarrior]

i would expect you to be skeptical clfnole.

but you still seem to think the chan family is more legit in the history than we are.

but you could and always will be skeptical as you like. you never look at it in a positive way, you have negative shaded glasses on so how can you try yo see things any other way.

[CLFNole]

I am always skeptical of things that kind of come out of the blue. I would also say if my eyes are shaded what are yours? I mean come on you talk about unity but always take subtle shots at them. If we are going to be open then discussion should be in a civil manner without all the name calling (both sides here not just you).

Points should be discussed logically to see if there could be merit to what is being said. The idea of throwing up a lot of "sheet" and seeing what sicks will work with simple people but not anyone with half a brain.

The bottom line here is everyone will cover their own arse. If the Chan Family found evidence that made the Hung Sing sides story more plausible they would not likely be forthcoming with the information, just as if the Hung Sing's people discovered their claims were wrong, they wouldn't put up on a website and admit it.

This whole thing is just a political power struggle with no bearing on kung fu at all.

[hskwarrior]

clfnole

First, about Foshan great wild goose victory hall source and course
　　BuddhaShan Hongsheng the hall by opened the inflammation to organize in Xian feng first year (in 1851). Opens the inflammation (1824-1893) common name Zhang Yayan, the wrongly-written character great wild goose victory, east Xinhui County double region of rivers and lakes insults 村人, liked 习武 since childhood. About opens the inflammation transiting the discipling from, carries according to great wild goose victory Chen abundant early time disciple Tang Dongchen: "once apprenticed oneself to Li family leader Li Youshan first, jumped over the number to carry, the beginning from enjoyed swims". Also has many records to mention in addition Zhang Yan afterwards again did obeisance the green grass buddhist priest was a teacher, resulted in the green grass to pass on by Buddhism inside and outside technique and the medical skill and so on the Eight Diagrams fist, and instilled into 反清复明 the thought. About green grass buddhist priest whether exists the question, introduced according to older generation great wild goose victory hall skilled worker, in front of Sino-Japanese War Foshan great wild goose victory 体育会, has consecrates the green grass buddhist priest's ancestral tablet. In addition, Chen Yilin, Zhou Yitian composes and publishes in "Guangdong Historical accounts of past events" "Foshan Great wild goose Victory Beginning to end" in the 50's according to Premier Zhou's instruction, also mentions the green grass buddhist priest.

Now that you read at the end there that Premier Zhou instructed Chen Yilin, and Zhou Yitian to compose something as pubic record called "the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon Beginning to end and also mentions the Green Grass Monk, I'm sure you will still doubt whether or not it really happened.

but thats cool. follow whatever version that suits your needs. the information will be present on my websites, as well as any other Hung Sing Kwoon school.

peace

[CLFNole]

Do you believe everything you read?

This was never spoken about in any history I have ever heard even those including the GGM. I mean there is an agenda here at it is so obvious.

I am not going to argue with you about this becuase we won't get anywhere.

Keep up the passion.

[hskwarrior]

actually i would encourage the fut san hung sing kwoon elders to do so if the history was wrong. if they didn't i would.

see, if somewhere down the line that i am wrong completely I am man enough to admit it.....if i were wrong. because as you can tell how passionate and confident i am about our history, if i was wrong then i would become on of Chan branches heavy supporters.

however, i don't think we're wrong.

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

if you are going to ask me that question, then let me ask you this one.

why do you follow the chan history when you are of both lineages?

because you were told to? you believed what you read? you were a follower?

i mean you doubt half your history but don't doubt the other half.

why?

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

what is your connection to fut san?

have you asked about their history, or did you just not care to know?

it is obvious on what side of your "hybrid" CLF school you fall on. thats ok, i just want to know what makes you believe them over fut san?

And if you don't follow Fut San then will you change your school Hung Sing to that of Chan Heungs? I mean if you open your own school. sorry. i know from what i've been told about LKH how much of a HSK supporter he was so his schools name won't change.

don't take that as any disrespect, it was only a question.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

Clf nole you got me on a roll,

i can see no matter how much the Fut San HSK comes up with in regards to history or historical artifacts, even if the government provides information, you will still forever doubt what you hear.

in your eyes, it is completely impossible to dig up an ancestor tablet of the Green Grass Monk, and you read the reports i posted.

you ask for evidence to support the fut san hung sing kwoon claims, and here i post writing in english and chinese, cite government instructed writings, and such and you still don't believe.

is there anything in this world (outside the chan branch) that would make you believe in what the fut san hung sing kwoon has been saying?

i've provided material for you to read as easily as did joseph. yet you follow joseph.

you don't see the negative pattern you emit?

regardless of what anyone comes up with, even if they found his bones, you will forever and always be a doubting thomas even if proof is in your face.

hsk

[Chief Fox]

Is this horse dead yet?

[hskwarrior]

maybe a few more whacks and it might be.

:cool:

[extrajoseph]

Whack! Whack! Whack!

:D

[hskwarrior]

yes you are.;)

[hskwarrior]

luv ya joseph.;)

[Fu-Pow]

What I think about this thread.....

[hskwarrior]

thats a good picture of you fu pow. really great.

do you still have that afro?:rolleyes:

[extrajoseph]

No Frank, we though you took him home with you last night! Was it worth it?:D

[hskwarrior]

i might have taken him home, because he really is a sexy thang, hahhahaha


but you are next brother joe;)

[hskwarrior]

cold fish man......cold fish.

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I follow the history I was told which includes the GGM. I like to speak with Joseph becuase he is full of good information. Whether or not the GGM was real or not I don't push my beliefs on anyone and argue with them.

Regard my sifu he was a CLF man and didn't care for politics. There are pictures in the school and we have albums at home of many Chan Hueng Memorial Association Banquets. He taught the Chan Hueng was the founder and the Jeurng Yim added on developing his branch. You are always quick to point out things when people bring up Lau Bun, well when it comes to my sifu we over here on the right coast have that covered.

It is not that I don't believe some of the hung sing history it is just that I have no belief in what is known as the Fut San school right now. I am sorry if this offends you but it is what it is.

I met you years ago in Seatle and have looked at your website for a long time. In the beginning there was never a mention of the Fut San school and has only appeared more recently. Why is that? With the passion you have I think you would have been speaking about this along time ago.

[hskwarrior]

clf nole,

we met in san francisco, not seattle. i have never been in seattle.

you and i competed and my sifu was a judge. but don't get that twisted because when we competed i was still in major recovery. you remember i did the double whips.

in regards to your sifu, i have spoken with many many elders within the Fut San lineage and they all speak about LKH. so i learned a few things about the man. I'm confident you have LKH covered and you would be a sucka if you didn't.

now regarding my sifu's website on the very early 1990's.

For as long as we have been in the united states we have always been the first choy lee fut school. we had no connection with hung sing kwoon around the world.

now if you were to give the Fut San Hung Sing history a look over, you would have all the answers to yours questions. they have the proof you are looking for and even a few Kuen Po's and such.

In 2000 my sifu lead a group of people to Fut San because we heard that they still existed but on the low down. we traced our roots, they not only just "said" we are from there but our Choy Lee Fut is basically exactly the same. the first time i saw the video of them perform, i noticed the content and patterns we what lau bun taught. Yuen Hai is Jeong Yim's disciple, so of course we went back to our roots.

Now, we are Fut San HSK through Lau Bun. so of course we are going to support them. Their info matched ours, and they provided more info on their branch in fut san.

in the late 1990's the Fut San HSK re-emerged to the public. however in the past, HSK had to practice secretly due to the cultural revolution in the 60's. so they basically had to hide the fact that they practice gung fu. if you look at the hung sing special issue article it also mentions what the times were like back then.

The Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon never disappeared or they only went under ground. the last head master Ho Cherng (He XIANG) was the last successor and he only recently passed away. he was still teaching Fut San Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut. Then you had the Wong Sei lineage still teaching, as well as Chan Ngau Sings groups.

The reason why Fut San has appeared on our family tree is for two reasons. the first being the we are of the Yuen Hai branch, and that is fut san.

the second is that in 2001 my sifu took Ho Cherng's son (ho cherk Wah) as a new sifu.

so although we were already fut san descendants, we picked up more Hung Sing Kwoon stuff from a few more lines of the same branch.

See when lau bun got to america Fut San Choy Lee Fut was still being developed even past his death in 1926. But lau Bun came here to the US in the very early 1920's. so that means we carry the early on stuff from the fut san branch. Yuen Hai died around the 1920's possible later.

so that is the reason why we have fut san on our website.

we are fut san disciples. they added to the history we already had. they filled in the blanks. no one heard of the history coming from the Fut san hsk because like the times called for no one was openly speaking about anything that could get them killed.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

see Clfnole,

I have been researching the History of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon since the early 90's. Although they re-emerged in the late 90's we had never known they were there or we would have went back long ago.

So in truth, I have been heavily promoting the Fut San branch, and have been commended by our elders for my passion in the history of our school. that is how many masters from the asia schools have heard of me, the others talk to them about me.

I had been searching for information on yuen hai, and everyone in singapore, hong kong, malaysia were searching for information on him for me.

I only came here a few years ago CLFNOLE, remember? like 2003-2004.

I still have emaills i printed up from many years back. the ony one i wish i would have saved was the one from howard choy who in his email to me claimed they knew nothing of the green grass monk.

so i have been at this a long time. only since i got on the forum have i expressed myself about the Hung SIng History.

anyways, Singapore and the like will back me up when i say i have been at the history thing for a long time. thats' how i knew about the laceys and they knew about me. for one through the Singapore hung sing kwoon.

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Yuan Hai came through Loong Chi Choy's line so he has nothing much to do with Futsan. Your sifu wants to learn more stuff so he took on a new sifu from Futsan, who tried to tell you that Loong and Jeong were the same person to keep you on their side while they fight King Mui for the tourist dollars, can you not see the lie and the hidden agenda?

Wake up, just learn your kung fu from where ever you can and how you can but don't let people use you. You have a misguided sense of loyality and wear your passion in your mouth and ears and not your heart!

This whole thing is really off the wall!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

joseph never mind about that. lets move on.

[hskwarrior]

you know you sound like you are telling the Li Iu Ling account of Yuen Hai.

Now, only Li Iu Lings line has ever said that Yuen Hai was Loong Gee Choy's student.

no one else anywhere even in the 1970 Chan Heung Memorial Assoc does it say Yuen Hai was a student of Loong Gee Choy. that is a chan family concoction. all hung sing kwoons recognize Yuen Hai as one of Jeong Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon.

not a Loong Gee Choy Student, unless they are one and the same person.

can you answer joseph, why Loong Gee Choy's students are the very same well known fut san hung sing disciples? i think you have Lay Yan, Lui Chun, and someone else i think, but the Tam Sam Buk Sing branch says nothing about loong gee choy. Fut San says nothing about loong gee choy in their history.

all hung sing kwoons know yuen hai is fut san hung sing kwoon.

stop it joseph.

;)

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

although i don't back down on the history, do you really think the history will teach my students how to fight?

the history is just one of my passions. i'm sure you would find watching one of my classes entertaining, and even will see some of the same things you do in your school.

so Joseph, don't assume i approach life the same way i do my History.

I take fighting and self defense very seriously and teach my students how to survive.

talk with ya soon.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh but no brother joe,

the loong gee choy thing is my own take on it.

although we have two different versions of Jeong Yim's existance, the one thing in common is that both sides claims that there was only one outsider amongst Chan Heung's disciples. Chan Heung people say it was loong gee choy. Hung Sing People say Jeong Yim was the only outsider. loong gee choy would have been mentioned, and the outsider thing would never have come up if loong gee choy was there before Jeong Yim.

I don't mean to be a pest, but i was looking at the Chan Famiily Choy Lee Fut site in china, and i think it said something like all the 18 students were around 1845.
what do you know about that because i just browsed it?

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hey Frank,

Just like your sifu studied with more than one sifu from one line, so Yuan Hai would most likely have studied with both Loong and Jeong at one time or another.

To play up one and play down another is just a waste of time. What they did were all CLF passed down by Chan Heung, isn't that good enough for you?

EJ

[hskwarrior]

see that can be true, but a person will acknowledge who he learned from and yuen hai never told lau Bun he learned from loong gee choy.

No one in fut san says he learned from loong gee choy. the other thing is Lau Bun only taught Fut san hung sing choy lee fut. nothing in his lineage closely or vaguely resembles chan heung choy lee fut. Lau Bun learned most of what Yuen Hai had to teach, and if he taught learned and taught chan family choy lee fut than we would have it in our system.

as i said earlier, lau bun came to the u.s. when fut san hsk was still developing their gung fu. So he learned the more earlier version of Hsk Kuen from his sifu before his sifu died.

but i will not completely ignore the possibility that yuen hai could have learned something from Loong Gee Choy, its all possible, just not ever referred to in our lineage.

but joseph, according to your account, how and when did Loong Gee Choy die?

hsk

[hskwarrior]

but how can you say that it was all passed down from chan heung if jeong yim does not teach Chan family choy lee fut?

Still, according to fut san who is the source of Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut says our founder also learned from Li Yau San before chan heung, so in my eyes as i've said in the past wouldn't that make Chan heung and Jeong Yim classmates and under the same generation as chan heung under Li yau San?

if they were both students of the same teacher whether one was earlier than the other, doesn't that still make them classmates? I mean he learned a little from chan heung (which was not complete chan family choy lee fut) he learned fut ga from old greenie, and he learned li ga from Li Yau San, and he then shaped his gung fu based off of what he learned and developed his gung fu without the aid of Chan Heung.

Fut San Hung Sing's Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, and Kau Da Kuen were not from chan heung. it was chan ngau sing who broke up the in and out bagwa and created those 3 sets from it. in its original state in and out bagwa had 1080 moves in it, and according to the Fut San HSK it was chan Sing who did that. not jeong yim.

hsk

[extrajoseph]

but how can you say that it was all passed down from chan heung if jeong yim does not teach Chan family choy lee fut?

Still, according to fut san who is the source of Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut says our founder also learned from Li Yau San before chan heung, so in my eyes as i've said in the past wouldn't that make Chan heung and Jeong Yim classmates and under the same generation as chan heung under Li yau San?

if they were both students of the same teacher whether one was earlier than the other, doesn't that still make them classmates?

hsk

Hi Frank,

Dino learned in China and took his students to learn in China at the same time, does that mean Dino's students are now his class mates?

Another scenerio, say you went to Sydney and learned the nine dragon trident from Chen Yong-fa and then you came back and taught your sifu the new form, does that make you a sifu to your sifu now?

EJ





EJ

[hskwarrior]

actually since we are from america, and we all have different sifu's under the late ho Cherng, (He Xiang) then under the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in Fut San we are of the same generation.

but here in america, under our own organization, my sifu is my sifu. but in china we come from two different teachers.

i know its an awkward situation.

and once again, actually, my sifu is too stubborn for his students to teach him anything. he won't let it happen. he will let his students have what the have, but won't let them teach it to him because it will mean that you are my sifu because you taught me something.

trust me, i know where you're coming from. you say its not accepted, but when you consider that chan heung was in fact still creating his choy lee fut even during jeong yim's fut san hsk time, and its possible that chan heung included new moves from jeong yim that he learned from the green grass monk.

that may not mean that Jeong Yim became Chan Heung's sifu, it just means that he shared what he learned and chan heung added in new moves.

when jeong yim went back to fut san, he continued to- just like chan heung did- create gung fu for his students that he developed. The way i see it, its chan Heung's gung fu was just choy fook's, Lee Yau Sans, and Chan Yuen Wu's gung fu combined.

Yes chan heung may have taught jeong yim what ever it was he was teaching before creatig choy lee fut. but jeong yim developed gung fu that was based on chan heung's, lee yau sans and green grass monks gung fu. i know i sound redundant, but its for the points purpose.

do you see my point?

hsk

[hskwarrior]

i'm going to bed man.

good nite.

scream at you in the morning.;)

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Yes chan heung may have taught jeong yim what ever it was he was teaching before creatig choy lee fut. but jeong yim developed gung fu that was based on chan heung's, lee yau sans and green grass monks gung fu. i know i sound redundant, but its for the points purpose.
do you see my point?
hsk

Hi Frank,

Good morning.

I can see your point, that is why I say that if you think Jeong Yim's kung fu only has a third of what Chan Heung taught him, then you should call what he does somthing else, Chan Lee Ching or something like that, it should not be called CLF.

What you are doing to Chan Heung can happen to you one day. Imagine you are like Chan Heung, a great and passionate teacher and have a very talented student and you taught him everything that he knew since 12 or 13, then he became a champion and a teacher of his own at 20 or 21.

Now he gets some big ideas and goes to study with Dino and Dino’s classmate and even Dino' sisuk and then he tells everyone he AND you made the school that you have worked all your life to create. He tells everyone that he knows more than you and he thinks that he is doing you a favour by not claiming he alone made the school. How do you feel?

Something to chew over while you are having breakfast.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

... and another thing, Frank, I will be away for a few days, so don't think I have forgotten you!

Take care and let this horse have a break!

[hskwarrior]

i know you will always be watching me my brother joseph.

and i see your point. but that is why i think we "all" should settle for a "general" history that makes all look great instead of people looking for their positions.

be safe joseph.

oh and don't take no wooden nickles. ;)

hsk

[hskwarrior]

to everyone else, please notice.

although me and joseph has had some real ugly historical battles, at the end of the day we still speak civil to each other.

i can see he is as passionate for his history as i am with mine.

i don't dislike joseph, i've grown to think of him as my faceless brother.

follow this example and we all could get along.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

I have thrushed you many times before and I will continue to do so every time I find you trying to change history and insult the Chen Family

i'm still waiting for that to happen