Kempo

[Hopping Frog]

Hey. I'm relatively new to this site, so forgive me if this topic has been brought up before, but I'd like to get a few people's opinions on something.
I was recently taking MA from a place which described itself as Shaolin Kung Fu, 'a blend of northern and southern, including chin na and animal styles'. I enjoyed it and felt that I gained some decent martial ability and confidence...but, I figured out pretty quick that it was not very traditional and seemingly not really Shaolin at all. As it turned out, my teacher's teacher was taught at Temple Kung Fu under Olaf Simon. After reading everything I could about him, I really questioned what I was learning. I was told that it was Chuan Fa, but that seemed too general to really be a style. I've assumed that it was (pretty linear) Kempo, composed of Karate, Temple boxing, and Gracie family Jiu-Jitsu.
Mostly, I want to know from youse guys is...
Is Chuan Fa a style or is it just another name for Shaolin Kung Fu?
Are most styles of Kempo considered Kung Fu or just flashed up Karate?
Did Olaf Simon ever actually get trained inKung Fu?

Thanks for any info you've got.
PS I've even more recently switched to a Hung Fut school. Very traditional.

[David Jamieson]

a. chuan fa is a generic term transliterating as "fist method/law" it still gets used now and again, here and there.

b. kempo is a japanified/americanized version of interpretations of what chinese martial arts are. There are ties, but in my opinion, these days, they are loose. Mostly Mitose/Parker composition although there are some interesting versions of it overseas that aren't much like what we see here in the west.

c. olaf Simon was shown to have never studied under any bonafide kungfu masters by his own admission in a court of law when richard shergold sued him a few years back.

hope that clears it up and by all means if anyone has contrary opinions or knowledge, please express.

[Green Cloud]

Chuan Fa or Lohan Chuan Fa, meaning fist way or scholar fist have become generic titles or names that are used by guys that either do a kempo style that's not Ed Parker based that want to seem more shaolin, or authentic.


I would stay away fom any school that can't produce a lineage or family tree that leads to them and oh yea It's got to have a real name. Like for example when I ask someone what style they do and they say Shaolin, I always respond with a question what kind of Shaolin??? Usualy the answere is aaa you know Shaolin. You want to avoid schools like that.

greencloud.net

[Becca]

b. kempo is a japanified/americanized version of interpretations of what chinese martial arts are. There are ties, but in my opinion, these days, they are loose. Mostly Mitose/Parker composition although there are some interesting versions of it overseas that aren't much like what we see here in the west.

There is some Kempo that is truely Chinese. Pai lum is consitered asoft chinese Kempo style, and is a member of the Kou Shu Federation. Not likely if it was "japafied." And the founder of the style, Po Fong Pai, was a Chinese imigrant, so it wasn't "americanized," either.

[Prairie]

Western Canada is full of kempo karate or kempo kungfu schools. I can only imagine the reason was a lack of genuine instruction "back in the day." Many schools have been founded by people that have Olaf in their lineage. These schools do not necessarily fly Olaf's banner.

That said, many instructors have gone on to study from people other than Olaf. I don't know why they would carry on with their "kempo" stuff though. I'd be suspicious of that. Perhaps they invested too much of their own identity in the "kempo" style that they just can't bring themselves to give it up. Another possibility is that they don't want to admit that they were deceived and that they also deceived their own students.

[David Jamieson]

holy crap, it's prairie!

where you been?

saskatchewan or something? :p

[htowndragon]

i was told that pai lum is a mix of okinawan kempo that daniel pai learned int he temple in okinawa and his families style of traditional kung fu?

[Prairie]

Hi David,

It's been a while since I've posted here :)

I'm not in Saskatchewan anymore. I moved to the happy land across the water... yes, Vancouver Island.

How is your practice?

Michelle

[TenTigers]

Ed Paarker's Kenpo was mainly from William Kwai Sun Chow, and very little if any came from Mitose. Others who came from Parker were Tracy's, Greg Silva. Ralph Castro also came from Chow. James Ibrao and James Woo, Ark Wong,Lau Bun also gave Ed Parker alot of input, and William Chow's original patch has Choy Li Fut in Chinese characters on it. Nick Cerio, and Sam Kuoha clamed to study with Chow, but it was when Chow was sufferring from dementia-as told to me by a Hawaiian student of Parker, who also trained with Chow.
Nick Cerio taught Fred Villari, who promoted himself to Grandmaster. The forms he taught were made up forms based on Okinawan Pinan Kata-but very far removed from the original correct versions, and "Ancient Chinese Kata" numbered one through who gives a f***. and self defense techniques that tried to look like Kung-Fu. Villari taught Steven DeMasco, a talented fighter,who went on to create United Studios of Self-Defense, and he and fellow Villari Black Belt Charles Matterra. are now US Ambassadors to the Shaolin Temple.
I have no idea where Simon learned his art from, but I had one of his students, and I could not for the life of me, see any applicable movements in his forms.
Kenpo in the 70's had a good reputation. Those days are long gone.

[Green Cloud]

Rick you know way to much about kenpo or is it kempo wait don't answere that I'm just kidding. Any way I think it's all **** exept for the Ed Parker stuff, that wasn't watered down even more. Not That I would learn Ed Parker kempo either. Not my cup of tea, I need something a little more gritty like expresso.

[tjmitch]

Ten Tigers, as with (sadly) alot of MA, the version of the 'history' of Ken(m)po you get depends alot on who is telling you the story. Several years ago tried to figure it all out and separate facts from opinions. For what it is worth, here is what I came up with. Anyplace where I express my opinion on matters, I try to give some explanation of the thought process I used to 'fill in the gaps'.

In my original work on this subject I had footnoted all of of my sources, but I cant find that right now, so this will be mostly from memory; but the primary sources I used were interviews with several of the people who 'were there' including Professor Emperado, Ed Parker, GM John McSweeny, the Tracy's , etc. Also, after the Chow/Mitose the branch I followed came from Ed Parker, so the other branches will have to wait till I have alot more free time :-)

So here is what I came up with.

William Chow most certainly knew some Martial art before he met James Mitose, and logically he would have learned it from his father, Hoon Chow. Hoon is alternately credited with being a some sort of Shaolin monk, to others claiming he had no martial arts training at all. As with most controversies, I would imagine the true lies somewhere in the middle. My best guess is that William and Frank Chow both studied a southern style 'Chuan Fa' system under their father. However I believe it was in a less formal atmosphere and to a less detailed degree than some would suggest.


There are two reasons I say this. One is that Hoon did not live in the United States for long, as he returned to Mainland China, not really leaving enough time to teach an entire kung fu system to his children. My second reason is that if the Chows were formally educated in a family kung fu system, I don't think William would not have studied under Grand Master Mitose , as culturally this would not be acceptable. If you had mastered your families’ kung fu system, why would you want to learn some “inferior” system, from a Japanese, nonetheless? I dont have them available right now, But I have seen picture's from the original school in Hawaii with James Mitose sitting in the traditional spot of the 'master' with William Chow clearly a student. Ask yourself this with your knowledge of Chinese martail arts masters....would someone who was an inheritor of their family's 'gar' or family style be sitting cross legged at the feet of a Japanese teacher?


Now, Mitose's family style of Kosho-Ryu Kempo was probably also at least 'influenced' by chinese MA, but that is a whole other story.

So to me it is clear that Chow was a student of Mitose's. How much of what Chow ended up teaching came from Mitose I have no idea.

The next Chapter would be Ed Parker. Ed Parkers first exposuer to kenpo was through <b> Frank </b> Chow, not William Chow. This happened in Utah. Ed spent time with Frank , who was not ever a student of Mitose, so what he learned from Frank must have been whatever Hoon Chow taught his boys. Later when Ed Parker went to Hawaii he looked up William Chow. Ed also was a student of Mitose. Again, there is some revisionist histoy in some quarters about this, and since the death of Ed Parker some people would like to deny this, but it is true.

When Ed Parker moved to Ca and started teaching, he must have been teaching a combonation of what he learned from both Chow and Mitose. What the the breakdwon was, I have no idea, and my guess is the real truth died with GM Parker.

After teaching for a what he learned from Chow and Mitose, GM Parker changed what he was teaching. Rather than re - write this, I will 'Cut and paste' and interview from GM John McSweeny 'who was there' at the time.

Question seven: Kenpo's history tells us originally Kenpo had very few classical forms. We know Master Parker included six forms to this style after he came to the United States. Could you tell us how Master Parker went about creating his Kenpo forms and why he decided to add them to his system?
"When Parker came to America from Hawaii, he studied at Brigham Young where he got his degree in 1957, and as soon as he got his degree, he went to Pasadena, California and opened his school. He had not learned any forms and sets from Chow. He learned strictly self-defense techniques and sparring, so he was excellent in both. He created his short form one himself. Then he created another form called the Book Form, which is in his first book, "Secrets in Chinese Kenpo." It was a two-man form, that each man did individually, then at the end, they combined to show what the moves were for.

"In 1961 I went to Phoenix, Arizona after I had been with Parker for a few years. I was a brown belt. I trained with Bob Trias for a week because I was there on business. Bob was a former marine who brought Japanese-style Karate to America, even before Parker. Parker started Kenpo, but Trias, to my knowledge, was the first American Karate man who brought it to America. He started in Phoenix in 1955. He was a big fellow. About 6 foot 7, and 260 pounds. He was a hard hitter. Now with that kind of physique, you can understand, he would be going for power. So when I trained with him, he said my sparring was OK, and so was my self-defense. He had a high regard for the "Hawaiian boy," which he called Parker.

"But he said 'one thing you don't have, and tell Parker this, is that you don't have any forms'. So I went back to Parker in the summer of 61, and I informed him of what Trias said, and he looked at me, didn't say anything to me. The next day I was with him before training class, he looked over to me and said, 'You know, I've been thinking about what Trias told you, and he's right. I don't have any forms, I don't have any sets. Just some simple stuff I created myself.'

"Then he said, 'I'm going to solve this problem.' And within a month he brought down Jimmy Wu from San Francisco, who was a Kung Fu man, a specialist in White Crane and Tai Chi, and other animal sets, but he especially loved the internal arts. So, Jimmy Wu lived with Parker for a full 12 months. Parker paid his room and board, but unfortunately, not any salary, and that's why Jimmy Wu left us eventually, because he needed more money to survive and Parker gave very little, not enough for his needs, so he left.

"But before he left, Jimmy Wu created our forms. I was there when he created them, with the other belts like Al Tracy and Jimmy Ebrao and Rich Montgomery, guys who were my seniors at Kenpo. I was in the group, and we learned these forms together from Jimmy Wu. Parker learned the forms too, but then Parker made his own adjustments, especially to form one, two and three. He made more linear moves and some Kenpo moves in form two, but if you notice in forms four, five and six, they have the Chinese influence exclusively.

"I would say there was 90% Jimmy Wu and 10% Parker in those forms, and forms one through three would be half and half, Parker and Wu. But without Jimmy Wu, we wouldn't have had forms one through six, a lot of people don't realize that, and it's essentially Chinese and that's the basis of Parkers forms.

So depending on when you studied with GM Parker you learned quite a different system, one more 'chinese' than the other. Also, what is known as the 'book set' differs depending on which printing of Ed Parkers 'Secrets of Chinese Kempo' book you get. I heard a story of why it was changed, but being unable to confirm it, I wont spead that story.

[Fu-Pow]

Is Shorinji or Shorinryu the same as Kempo? Just went to tournament this weekend that was held by the Shorinryu people. Shorin=Shaolin, I believe.

[David Jamieson]

Hey Michelle, hope Vancouver finds you happy and well. My practice is coming along thanks, I hope yours is growing as well.

-response to fu pow

shorin ryu = okinawan 'shaolin' school of karate sometimes refered to kempo (which transliterates out as 'chuan fa' in chinese. Other Okinawan styles include Goju. Uechi, Isshin, etc which are more along the lines of chinese martial arts, but still are okinawan presentations of Chinese martial arts.

[Becca]

i was told that pai lum is a mix of okinawan kempo that daniel pai learned int he temple in okinawa and his families style of traditional kung fu?
Yes, a temple founded by chinese monks. If the dtyle was brough to Okinawa by chinese and was not changed, it is still a chinese art, isn't it? If not, then there is very little cinese martial arts in America, since very few Sifu are of Chinese decent...:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Is Shorinji or Shorinryu the same as Kempo? Just went to tournament this weekend that was held by the Shorinryu people. Shorin=Shaolin, I believe.

Shorinji Kempo was founded by a man named Michiomi Nakano who was a member of the a japanese criminal organization (Black Dragon Society) which began acting in concert with the imperial government at that time. Nakano reputedly acted as an agent providing intelligence to Japanese authorities in manchuria. He claimed he was initiated in the the Giwamonken temple which he eventually became successor naming taking the buddhist name "Doshin So" and refering to his style as Shorinji kempo. His claims were hotly contested and In 1972 he was on the losing end of a law suit by a group of Chinese living in Japan and as a result the japanese court action agreed to refer to his style as "Nippon Shorinji Kempo."

A little research will reveal to you that his "System" is in fact a creative Blend of Kango Zen , Shorinji Kenkokan Karate (Nakano trained under Masayoshi Hisataka for a while) and Hakko ryu Jujutsu (which he studied under Okuyama Ryuho) and both of these unique systems are clearly visable in the training of Nippon Shorinji Kempo.


Originally Posted by GeneChing
MK is right, or at least concurs with what I've heard. Shorinji kempo (aka Nippon-den Seito Shorinji Kempo) is now headed by So Doshin's daughter. In fact, in the early editions of the movie Shaolin Temple, the 'historic pilgrimage' of So Doshin and his daughter to Shaolin is documented in the intro - that scene is deleted from many later editions.
But there are other Shorin and Shorinji schools, mostly found in Okinawa. It's horribly confusing for me, since I don't really specialize in Japanese research, but I'm sure someone has sorted it all out somewhere.

As for Kempo, it is confusing too. It's part of the name of many Karate schools. Beyond Parker's and So Doshin's, there is Uechi Kanei's Kempo Kai (aka ****o ryu, but don't pronounce it *that* way), Kuda Yuichi's Matsumura Kenpo Shorin Ryu, and Nakamura Shigeru & Odo Seikichi's Okinawa Kenpo. Even more confusing is the fact that by using another character, kenpo becomes 'sword method' (ken as in kendo or jian dao in Mandarin).

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36893&highlight=Kempo

[TenTigers]

Shorin0Ryu, Shorinji-Ryu, and ShorinIi Kempo are three distinct different styles. Shorin Ryu was founded by Itosu in Okinawa,and is one of the most widely practiced Karate-do forms, which in turn influenced Shotokan and many other Japanese Karate systems. ShorinJi-Ryu, I am not as familiar with, but have met several Black Belts from that system and it seems to be similar to Shorin-Ryu.
Shorin Ji Kempo was founded by Doshin-So, who after visting China and the Shaolin Temple, and seeing the frescos on the walls, was inspired to create Shorin Ji Kempo -Shaolin Tsu Ch'uan-Fa meaning Shaolin Temple Fighting Art.
ShorinJi Kempo teaches Kongo Zen as part of the training, and it is recognized as a legitimate religion in Japan.
If you watch the movie, Shaolin Temple with Jet Lei, you will see Shorin Ji Kempo in action during the battle at the temple. Many of the monks and extras were played by Shorin Ji Kempo practitioners. You can see it in their technique-it is less flashy and will have strikes followed by jiu-jutsu like takedowns. They are the only guys who actually look like they're fighting.

Greencloud-I taught at three Kenpo schools in my misguided youth
(hey, we all did some things we ain't proud of)

[BlueTravesty]

My first experience in MA was studying Shorin Ryu at the Providence Park community center at the tender age of 10... or was it 11? Classes were only $3/lesson with one 2-hour lesson a week. (This was 1993, btw.)
I stuck with that style for about 2.5 years, though with summer break and only one class per week, that translates to less than a year compared to my current training in MyJong LawHorn (which has been a REAL 2.5 years.)
I used to "compare" technique with a friend who took TKD and another who took Karate (which, looking back, looked a HECKUVA lot like Shotokan.) Compared to MJLH, there were certain similarities to CMA. Horse stance was closer to the Northern Chinese style Horse Stance than in either TKD, or Shotokan (the feet were closer together, like in CMA.) CLOSER being the operative. It might have just been Sensei Michael's training method, but the depth of the horse stance (how low can you go?) was never emphasized, just staying. Maybe because we were beginners? However, I have yet to see a Japanese, or Korean that remotely resembles the Shaolin/Eagle Claw/MJLH horse stance or even the Hung Gar Horse Stance. The Cat Stance on the other hand, was VERY Karate (30/70 weight distribution.)
Aside from that, Shorin Ryu, or at least Shorin Ryu as I learned it, had a few superficial similarities to CMA- hammer fist techniques, crescent and circular kicks, emphasis on thrusting with the heel rather than snapping with the blade on the side kick, and the use of the Saber (which looked almost exactly like the Dao) as one of the 5 weapons in the system (nunchaku, staff, tonfa, Saber, and sai.) were really the only other similarities that come to mind. And also, the palm strikes were more like the Chinese "Willow Leaf" palm rather than the more traditional Japanese "Flat Palm Pulled Back."
Mind you, I didn't get a LOT of training in the style. And it was at a community center, so probably not the most traditional training either, so that is just my two cents. If you need a grain of salt to take it with, well here it is. .

[GeneChing]

There's some threads on Shorin on the Shaolin forum. Here's just one example (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36893), but if you search Shorin, you'll come up with a few more.

As for Parker (keNpo, not keMpo), MartialArtsMart is an official supplier. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Styles_Kenpo.html)

[David Jamieson]

spelled kenpo, pronounced kempo i think the applied meaning is exactly the same

[MasterKiller]

spelled kenpo, pronounced kempo i think the applied meaning is exactly the same

"The common reference to "Kenpo" comes from the book that James Mitose produced in 1953 entitled What is Self-Defense? Kenpo JiuJitsu as a textbook on martial arts. The term "Kenpo" was a minor typo, however the high cost of a reprint was something neither Mitose nor the publishing company were willing to undertake for a minor technical error. The terms stayed with his students, and when William Chow and Edmund Parker went to create their own Kempo schools, they took the "Kenpo" name with them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenpo

[GeneChing]

I'm told there are some rather heated lineage distinctions between the N and the M. It's akin to the Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wihng Chuyn/ad nauseum distinction. I know that when I worked on the ad text for some of the Parker products, using the N was a huge deal for his lineage. It might even have been discussed on one of those other Shorin threads on the Shaolin forum.

Lineages. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

yeah. that's what i meant, but thanks for the details mk. :p

[David Jamieson]

I'm told there are some rather heated lineage distinctions between the N and the M. It's akin to the Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wihng Chuyn/ad nauseum distinction. I know that when I worked on the ad text for some of the Parker products, using the N was a huge deal for his lineage. It might even have been discussed on one of those other Shorin threads on the Shaolin forum.

Lineages. :rolleyes:

The whole wing chun thing is ridiculous really. Essence and concepts are the same and it all boils down to sandbox politics in the end.

as for lineages, they do pose a problem when there is a surge of bogus ones popping all over the place. This takes nothing from legit lines however.

the only ones who get really screwed are beginners who don't do their homework up front and don't get their head around some of the basics.

[Merryprankster]

Some of the best fighters I know train in kenpo. The style they take/train/teach is, I believe Tracy, which is a Parker derivative is far as I know. That said, you have to understand that the four best fighters in that place come from, respectively, a boxing background, wrestling background, kickboxing, and Judo. This takes nothing from the Kenpo, nor is it a testament to cross training.

I think what has happened is that those four guys all have very intimate, first hand knowledge of "how the body works." All of THEIR personal students are less focused on "step to 12:30 and block at 80%," and more focused on "ok, to make this work, you need to step INTO him and make sure you get your arm above his elbow when you do this."

You can see the difference between them, their students, and the guys are their school who didn't come up that way.

It also helps that the guy who owned the joint was a retired cop, didn't brook any **** in his dojo, and frequently kicked people out that he didn't like because he didn't need the cash (or gave them a "tune up.") A couple of the old stories are pretty funny.

The Judoka is short, hairy and smells. Mostly like cigarettes, but frequently like a combination of axe spray and body odor. He's also one of the most loyal, nicest guys you'll meet. One day this tae kwon do/Judo guy came in with "something to prove," talking **** and being a jerk. So the owner (respectfully referred to by everybody there who was on the "in" as "the 'fu" ie Sifu), calls my friend over and says "He wants to play. Have fun!"

They agreed there would be no rules. So my buddy puts out his cigarette (he was having a smoke break), and shuffles over. And I do mean SHUFFLES. I wasn't there, of course, but I've known this guy for years. He's about 5'9" and 225. It's not all muscle. He's just built like a beer keg...

Anyway, the guy starts warming up with some kicks and stuff. My friend dropped to his knees and popped him in the nuts.

"Ughhhhhhhhhhh..... I wasn't ready, what the ****?"

The 'fu said "No rules - that's what you wanted. Maybe you shouldn't cop an attitude, huh"

My friend shambled off and finished his cigarette.

[ShaolinTiger00]

LMAO! MP are you talking about "Ant"? That guy is hysterical! I'd love to train with him sometime we seemed to think alike.

except for the large consumption of whiskey and cigarrettes of course..

[Merryprankster]

Yup!

I might have got some of the details wrong.

You would have LOVED the "old crowd" at that school, from what I hear.

Ant's teaching in a different place now. Rent at the old joint went through the roof.

[Green Cloud]

Hey Rick it's ok I was friends with a few kempo guys till I realized their full of **** and all about money. They have no honor and will screw you for a quarter and worst of all they just plain out suck. I hate the fact that they claim to teach kung fu but its only available if you give us all your money and then bend over.

I am actualy speaking about the united studios people. No disrespect intended to anyone else.

You guys probably will get no rebuttle from these guys since they know I'm just itching for a chance to bust a cap in there asss.

Their crappy franchize is just taking away from the cred. of real kung fu schools.

They are actualy worse then fred villari's.

[Green Cloud]

What nobody wants to speak up. **** I thought this was the kung fu forum, cum on.

[htowndragon]

i crossed hands with a ed parker kempo guy at my school. short but really stacked black kid. threw him three times.

i dont understand some of the stuff they do, he learned a lot of sets and is a strong kid, but he's always wanting to show me a new set he learned for his belt...

[Green Cloud]

Yea I know what you mean I've crossed hands with some of the top kenpo guys out here and well swept the floor with most of them with ease. The problem is the methodoligy they use. And all the kempo guys that I know all say that they cant make heads or tales of their forms. They just don't understand the aplications and a they openly admit that there forms make no sense.

Although I have crossed hands with Huck Plantas and he was real good, but then again he is the Vice President of Ed Parkers kenmpo.

[Yum Cha]

I have a Kiwi buddy that is Parker Kenpo here in Australia. We play, its fun. He's practical, has some groovy stuff, and hard to predict. Of course, it could just be his crazy-a$$ personality. His last grading was "100" years ago and he was 6th dan.

He's always whining about how Parker Kenpo has gone to shyt. I don't know enough to comment.

His stuff is Chinese with an Okinawian flavour. Has some Hung Kuen style stuff in it, and they do a version of Tiger and Crane. Not your static karate kinda stuff by a long shot. He's a lot more creative sparring than a kickboxer, with some tricky takedowns, and mobile combinations. He works the circle a lot like Ba Qua.

There's another keMpo I know, http://www.kojosho.com. Fred Absher has the goods, I believe he was one of the first non-koreans to win at the international TKD matches in Korea back in the 60's. His Kempo stuff was very soft, like Chinese Chi Gung, but I believe it has evolved over the years. I have never run into anybody that knows them. But than again, New Mexico isn't really population central....

[Green Cloud]

Back to huck planas, I'm sorry if I am mispelling his name, but this guy is one of the best Ed Parker guys I know. I met hin in New Orleans when I was working as a pitch man selling Ginsu knives. I was there for a month and needed a school to train in so I could keep my self sharp.

I saw his school one day and decided to walk in. After I intoduced my self he asked me to show him some kung fu. So I did, after the demo Huck Looked at me and told me that none of the kenmpo stuff he has would impress me. Then he asked hay how is your knife and stick fighting.

I don't mean to ramble but, Huck had some of the best Philipino stick fighting I ever saw. Anyway he said to me, that this was the real deal and we could practice when the school was closed. As far as paying him for his time he just wanted to hang and be taken out for a stake wich I gladly did every night.

The point of all this is that Huck felt that kenmpo was a good style for basics and is a good francize system since it's easy to learn and easy to teach, but he felt at the time that you do need to go outside of the system if you want to get better at fighting.

This guy Huck was a cool cat, he was even one of Elvis's training brothers and body guards, and told me all kind of cool stories about Elvis and his training with him. He had pictures and all.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Huk Planas is the right spelling just I looked it up sorry. Some other noted Ed Parker people are Dian Tanaka, Mike Pick, Paul Mills, Frank Trejo, Steve Muhammad, Bob White, and Steve LaBounty.

I Haven't met any of these guys since I don't travel in those circles but I can tell you this much Huk seems to be the top dog. Now I'm going back over 15 years ago but I believe Huk is even senior to Ed jr. as far as understanding of the system. Any way I don't know what the curent politics are but trust me huk is the man.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

The guys that I mentioned in the above post are definatly the only recognized peole in the only real recognized kenpo org. every one else is a fake like United Studios, Rich Fasinas of White tiger kempo in Holbrook N.Y. As far as I'm concerned Kenpo started out as a cool system but people made it something that you call your style when you made it up for the sake of making money! Of course that Coke snorting Elvis wana be Fred Vilaris started all this comercial bull **** that has tainted the Kung Fu Buiss.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

If you are wondering why I'm talking so much shiat about these guys but there is no rebutle thats why they don't compete or let there students know about forums to keep them in the dark.

Watch this and you guys will understand what I mean. I challenge all United Studios peole to a fight. Full contact of course, but don't exited boys and girls no one will respond since they are all white colar ***s.

greencloud.net

[Becca]

Aww, c'mon. I know plenty of white collar types who go full contact. Maybe they just didn't want to fight someone who has a score to settle... Which might make them chicken ****, but then again, they might have thought you have raibies...;) :D

[Green Cloud]

That's cute becca;)