The Path of enlightment

[chisauking]

In the world of wing chun, most don't agree with each other.

For example, very few can agree what chisau is, and there is so much conflicting and contradicting information presented on this forum.

My question is this: Do any of you question what you have been taught? How do you know you are on the right track, and everybody else is on the wrong track?

If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?

[Matrix]

If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?Without a doubt, the answer is Yes.

[canglong]

chisauking,
The way in which we learn it is explained that wing chun is the "right track" and that there is no right or wrong to it only a deeper understanding or appreciation if you will. This suggest that although you may not necessarily understand the true nature of tan sau you may run into someone that has less understanding of the true nature of a punch than your understanding of tan. The very next day you might run into someone that has more awareness of the true nature of a punch than your own awareness of tan. What we need first as you suggest is to know what questions to ask in order for us to acquire the knowledge that leaves us without further questioning.

What all this teaches us is exactly how to question what we are taught. In that the only criteria to examine and define our methods is based on those factors that don't change Time Space and Energy. These factors are what provide wing chun the precision it displays when done correctly. Once we understand how these factors govern each and every wing chun expression then it's just a matter of practicing those methods which best teach us how to make them a natural expression of ourselves or as we like to say gain the body karma to express our wing chun. The reason wing chun is not a system of mimicry is because of this fact.

When in the early stages of your training you are shown the true natures of wing chun your teacher only advances your training progression not your knowledge because the knowledge is there from day one to ask yourself why did tan work this time but not that time and you should be able to answer this and other questions like it for yourself with your understanding of what role Time Space and Energy play in the execution of any and all wing chun expression you may be attempting at that moment.

So again there is no right or wrong there is only a deeper understanding juxtaposed to an ability of the body to perform what the mind already knows. More than a need to question our teachers we question our own ability to understand those factors that deliver us to an understanding of the wing chun expression. Any and all wing chun instructors can put you on that path to questioning these things but its up to each of us individually to provide ourselves with the answers to these questions. Learning this fact early is more valuable than any technique anyone can show you.

Good question :)

[Matrix]

So again there is no right or wrong there is only a deeper understanding juxtaposed to an ability of the body to perform what the mind already knows. ................ Any and all wing chun instructors can put you on that path to questioning these things but its up to each of us individually to provide ourselves with the answers to these questions. Learning this fact early is more valuable than any technique anyone can show you.Tony,
That's quite a blanket statement you're making. I don't believe that "any and all wing chun instructors" have equal ability to put anyone on a correct path. I do agree that we must all take personal reponsibility for our own understanding. I think this means that we should be good students, not just blind followers.

How can you suggest that all instructors have this ability? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I just don't see it.

Same goes for right and wrong. Of course there are right and wrong ways to do things. A deeper understanding of incorrect action is a waste of time. Deeper understanding is definitely required and should be a constant goal for all students of any art. I just think you need to make sure you're going along the correct path.

[Sam]

I can emphatically state that Chi Sao is not fighting. It enhances fighting. Chi Sao develops a sixth sense, and sensitivity to instantaneously feel energy (force, pressure). This enables one to initiate or counter attack instantaneously. This is the difference between hit or miss fighting or with mastery of Chi Sao having control of the opponent. The ultimate outcome is not to try to beat your opponent but to have control so that you can shut him down or enter at will. Chi Sao teaches you which "doors" are open or closed for both you and your opponent. Also how to enter, redirect, attack and counter attack. James Cama's Fut Sao Wing Chun utilizes many versions of Chi Sao (Standard, Full Body. Chi Gerk, Closing Distance). www.futsaoyongchunkuen.com

[Matrix]

I can emphatically state that Chi Sao is not fighting. It enhances fighting. Who said chi sao was fighting?

[canglong]

That's quite a blanket statement you're making. I don't believe that "any and all wing chun instructors" have equal ability to put anyone on a correct path.Hello Bill,
Let me elaborate because the statement in question was meant to be a little bit simpler than how you read it. That statement was menat to suggest if you show up at a wing chun class then that is the first step in your journey or even more simply put the first step down the road of wing chun is showing up in a wing chun class and yes this then presupposes that there is a qualified teacher instructing the class. That is what was meant by any and all teachers of wing chun specifically. Without saying of course naturally if all teachers and teaching methods were the same we would not be here having this conversation so yes I can stand by my early comments and yet agree with you that not all teachers have equal ability, hope that clarifies things and sorry for any confusion.

[Sam]

Matrix, it may not be said but it is definitly implied. Check out the amount of time spent at most Wing Chun schools on Chi Sao practice. On the other end of the spectrum you have the Wing Chuns full contact, kickboxing gym. Each one has it's good and bad points.

[Matrix]

That statement was menat to suggest if you show up at a wing chun class then that is the first step in your journey or even more simply put the first step down the road of wing chun is showing up in a wing chun class and yes this then presupposes that there is a qualified teacher instructing the class. Tony,
Yes, I agree with that.
Thanks for the clarification.

[Matrix]

Matrix, it may not be said but it is definitly implied. Sam, No, I don't think it was implied. Having hung around this forum more than my fair share, I know that we are pretty much in agreement that this is not the case. Thanks for restating the point though, just in case anyone else had drawn the same conclusion.

[chisauking]

Tony:

In your reply, it's taken as a given that your wing chun sifu is competent and is willing to teach the true way, but as most know, that isn't always the case.

What if your sifu is not such a person? Does my question go full circle?

In my opinion, it's not as easy as you make out. If it were, there would not be so much contradicting information on this forum.

[canglong]

In your reply, it's taken as a given that your wing chun sifu is competent and is willing to teach the true way, but as most know, that isn't always the case.
chisauking,
No that is not what was meant to be implied in my response to your original question. If I may try again to expain a little better perhaps. The essence of the post is not really concerned with the competency of the Sifu in question, why, because wing chun exist and secondly wing chun is what it is and if you start a search to find wing chun it's up to you (the individual) to know what it is you are looking for and then understand the best method of finding it.

So how do we know wing chun. Start at the point where most wing chun families agree, easily applied, economy of motion with maximum efficiency to name a few. Let your search begin there. Then move on to how these concepts are being explained are you being instructed as to how and why the concepts and principles being explained in class adhere to the rules that precipatate things that are easily applied, involve economy of motion and maximize efficiency. Then you have some basis to analyze your methods of application against the methods of others. Then comes the question if 2 different styles are doing 2 different things neither of which may be wrong but can 2 different things be used for the same purpsoe and both exemplify maximum efficiency?

These are the questions we use to start the journey where it will end no one knows but with each answer we will be closer to a resolution of our own understanding of wing chun and further away from a reliance of someone else's interpretation whether he be our Sifu a noted author or just some guy on the street which is why his competency level is of little consequence in this journey. Conflicting and contradicting information will remain a constant the path beyond these things is arrived at through due diligence and hard work on our part not just practicing techniques but to understand what is and is not wing chun in our own mind. A good Sifu shortens the time of your journey he doesn't walk you down it hand in hand.

Hope that says it a little better if not we have more space. :)

[chisauking]

Good reply, Tony.

But let me ask you this: If wing chun's concepts is the guide for our true wing chun path, why then is 99% of all practitioners not adhereing to those concepts? Does it mean that they ALL have a lower (let's not say wrong) understanding of wing chun?

[canglong]

But let me ask you this: If wing chun's concepts is the guide for our true wing chun path, why then is 99% of all practitioners not adhereing to those concepts? Does it mean that they ALL have a lower (let's not say wrong) understanding of wing chun?chisauking,
Fair question, although it is unclear how you arrived at the 99%. Returning to some of my earlier post you are correct not to say wrong but lower level may not be the best term in this instance as well we might want to see this as differences of opinion not based on Time Space and Energy. In my training we are taught that Techniques can be argued upon amongst practitioners, Concepts can be argued upon amongst different practitioners, but Principles aaah now these are universal laws and can not be argued upon regardless of a persons particular position or affiliation (gravity, inertia, polarity etc.) these things leave no room for debate.

When we apply this same test of universal law to the execution of a particular wing chun expression we should all get the same result so where is the rub, opinion. Teachers and practitioners alike are relying on opinion instead of principle to guide them down their wing chun path not sure it would be as high as 99% but we agree its a large number. An example if you take a look at the thread why you should not bong high there is an accompanying video. Well in the video you'll see one bong sau similar to that of one my family uses that the author of the thread say you should not do. Yet when he starts to explain why you should not use that particular bong sau you will not hear him speak at the concept level and you certainly will not hear him speak on principle all he shows you are techniques against an improper use of the bong sau, not to pick on anyone in paticular but that is out there now and so it comes straight to mind. This is just one example of a person choosing opinion over fact because the fact of the matter is this person does not understand the true nature of that particular bong sau or gate theory or he would not be suggesting the bong sau shown was too high.

So the moral of the story is Wing Chun is a Principle based science if someone shows you at technique your next question is what is the concept behind it and your next question after that should be what is the principle behind the concept and if these answers are not rooted in the universal laws of nature then they may not actually be wing chun. It would seem so many people are enamoured with the techniques they would rather not ask the hard questions which would answer why so many people could hover around a differing understanding than those that have asked the hard questions and received proper answers. Lastly though about the 99 percentile it is all a matter of perspective is the glass half empty or is the glass half full as long as the tea cup is empty when we arrive and full when we leave "it's all good" as the kids say now-a-days.

chisauking thank you for the civil discussion on a very sensative topic. :)

[Phil Redmond]

Without a doubt, the answer is Yes.
Ditto. That should be a given. :D
PR

[bcbernam777]

Well there are a number of points that lead me to not question what I am being taught:

1) My Sifu learnt directly from Yip Man in the early 50's (pre BL) when Yip Man could be bothered teaching Wing Chun.

2) I have been told by another student of one of my Sifus Sui hing's that His Sifu had told him that my Sifu was pound for pound faster and a better fighter than BL. (not prepared to put a name to that as this was told to me in confidence, and it is up to this particular sifu to give me permission to add names [as much as I want to])

3) My sifu is in his mid 60's and he can still kick my ass without breaking a sweat which tells me I have still much to learn from him.

4) he holds his desire and passion for Wing Chun deep in his heart, and transmits the art with a deep sense of humility and truth that i have really seen from anyone in any field of life.

5) After one year of learning with Sifu I was able to defeat a Wing Chun student of 6 years, I was more powerful, faster, and more fluid quite simply, this is not to my credit, it is to Sifus credit.

6) Sifu is prepared to put much time and energy into me

[ghostofwingchun]

If wing chun's concepts is the guide for our true wing chun path, why then is 99% of all practitioners not adhereing to those concepts? Does it mean that they ALL have a lower (let's not say wrong) understanding of wing chun?

This is my view . . . person can not start with concept . . . wc like any martial art or any sport for that matter needs to start with techniques . . . needs to start with application . . . from the concrete we then move to concept . . . concepts come from application . . . not the other way round . . . when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea . . . this leads to different view of what to do . . . so we are going in different directions from start . . . also then we are trying to make our preconceived ideas fit reality of fighting . . . I should do this or that because concept tells me to . . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . . and seeing application then generalize concept . . . so reason there is so much disagreement in wc . . . so many different concepts . . . is because so many start with different ideas or concepts in first place . . . all believing they are right of course . . . and because most are not focused on application . . . but instead things like chi sao. I am thinking this is why we hear phrase . . . understand wc . . . so often . . . this means they view wc as intellectual exercise . . . something that needs understanding . . . no one talks about understanding boxing or wrestling or sport . . . what is there to understand? . . . lol . . . but in wc many seek understanding or say another does not understand . . . understanding comes from doing not doing from understanding. This is just my view.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Matrix]

Well there are a number of points that lead me to not question what I am being taught:..........
BCB,
When I think of the idea of questioning what I am being taught, I think of it from the point of view of questioning my own understanding of what I have been taught. Not necessarily the source of the information; in other words your sifu.
I'm sure we've all had the experience of thinking we "know" a certain concept and having one of those "ah-ha" moments some time later when we discover a deeper understanding, and then thinking....... "so that's what he meant when he told me this so many months ago".
I have tremendous respect for my sifu, and I came to Wing Chun as a bit of a sceptic. For reasons very similar the ones that you've ennumerated, and the fact that he's just a great person, I think I'll be hanging around for some time to come. Even he says that we should be good students, not blind followers. Who wants to train a bunch of mindless robots?

[Hendrik]

thus, i have heard,
Martial art training could be similar to walking the religion or spiritual or mystics path ..

one can be expert in a certain concept or religion or lineage or scientific thinking or even have mastered on a subject for decades.

and suddently, one hits the dark night of soul, the whole world will turn upside down and melt and totally make a different sense..
it then become Dorothy says 'toto, this is not kansas anymore'

then, via the dark night, via surrender, silence, solitude, and simple, one get to know the dao/ buddha/ god/ nature ..

there is the resurrection after the pheonix is burned into ashes in the dark night.

at that point there is no longer style or concept/s but as it is.

before that occur one is just living under other's concept or idea, be it a master's a con man...etc one is not living one's it.

and how is living in other's concept or perspective can be the path of enlightment? cant because it is always within the boundary of other's paradigm. untill the dark night shown, all hell broke lose, one ni longer believe in the bubble of other's concept can protect one. and facing fear naked and unarm. there one will find the dao, god, nature, buddha....... and the world is no longer the same with the old one after that.

thus. i have heard

[canglong]

chisauking,

originally posted by ghostofwingchun
. . . when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea . . . this leads to different view of what to do . . . so we are going in different directions from start . . . also then we are trying to make our preconceived ideas fit reality of fighting . . . I should do this or that because concept tells me to . . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . . Now if we can examine these statements it may be possible to get some insight as to some of your questions. starting with "when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea" ghostofwingchun is practicing wing chun yet he readily admits that he hasn't a clue what the concepts of wing chun are! note the word vague. Secondly ". . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . ."By becoming a student of wing chun we have already admitted our way is not the right way this leads to the misconception of if we do it and it works it must be right (opinion) not universal law. Back to my original post what works one day may not work the next and so begins the path of never understanding why techniques or applications work.

Each and every application/technique is wrapped in a concept that is defined by a principle ignoring this fact does not make it go away or how the grandmaster explains it to us is paraphrasing each and ever technique exist on its on meaning it has its own time space and energy the techniques do not exist because we want them to. The question each and every person practicing wing chun is asking themselves when they take up this study is can we not only understand these concepts and principles but then express them with our body through the use of their corresponding technique.

chisauking, how goes your journey. :)

[Matrix]

Each and every application/technique is wrapped in a concept that is defined by a principle ignoring this fact does not make it go away ...........Tony,
I agree. To learn techniques without the supporting concepts is not consistent with Wing Chun methodology. That's why we start with "the little idea" called Siu Lim Tao. It packages the concepts, principles and techniques together as one form. They are to be learned in unison. To do otherwise is like trying to learn to walk, but by only using your left leg...... you can add the right leg in later. ;)

Ghost says "when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . .this leads to different view of what to do " , to which I respond, of course the concepts are vague in the beginning. You only have the beginners mind at that point. Besides, where else would you start but at the beginning? Do you think that you can learn the techniques and bolt on concepts after the fact? I think that would not be advisable. And, in my opinion, you are far more likely to have different views of what to do if you do not learn the supporting principles and concepts along with the techniques.

[DRleungjan]

My question is this: Do any of you question what you have been taught? How do you know you are on the right track, and everybody else is on the wrong track?

If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?


Let, me take a crack at this....:

Answer to the first question:

Let me start by stating that questions breed answers if one honestly looks; skepticism breeds truth if one honestly searches for it. So yes, at times I have questioned what I am being taught. But I understand my ignorance on many subjects within Wing Chun. Also it is very important to have a sifu who can answer, shows you what is being taught, and also encourages you to explore. I am very fortunate to be a part of that. Techinques and concepts alone work on a textbook level so to speak. Trying to apply these in a real world format is whole different ball game. It is why two man forms, muk jong, drills, ect. are done.

As far as being on the right track? Hmmm...I think only progress can dictate that. By progress I mean...a transmutation of sorts...by absorbing what is being taught and being able to bring out correctly those teachings. Do I know that I am on the right track? The answer to that is a resounding yes...that NOW I beleive that I am; the system tells me so. About judging other people and their studies? No...I don't think everyone else in on the wrong track...who am I to judge?...right?

Answer to the second question:

The answer is a HELL YEAH!!! (ala Stone Cold). Let me give you a little scenario with my life to compare. I have been working on jobs that were not my career intentions. Apparently if you look at these, they were a waste of time. Now we all know how many curveballs life throws at ya. So in a sense I was on the wrong track (on many levels). The funny thing is that trough that wrong track I have learned so much! So the rhetorical question to this is: How is it possiple to be on the wrong track and yet make certain progress at the same time?

Now I'm headed in a different dirrection careerwise and lifewise. In my heart and in my mind I know that I am headed in the right direction. So if you ask me, it's that Yum/Yeung theory. So yeah I AM prepared to go that full circle and start again (the secret is that this time I think I'm a little wiser...lol).

It is NEVER late for a change to take place in your martial studies as well as in life.

Just a couple of taels from the doctor...


Regards,
DRleungjan :)

[chisauking]

Drleungjan sez: Techinques and concepts alone work on a textbook level so to speak. Trying to apply these in a real world format is whole different ball game. It is why two man forms, muk jong, drills, ect. are done.

I can understand what you are saying Dr, but isn't the ability to comply with the concepts of wing chun in your application of the techniques the highest expression of the skill? After all, one can perform a jumping back kick and still proclaim it to be the highest level of wing chun.

A good example of what I'm talking about is my on journey of self discovery. When I first started wing chun, many, many years ago, I was able to blast through most people in chisau using raw power. It wasn't until I'd met higher level practitioners that I'd realise there were limits to my method. Yes, I'd took the shortest line and the simplest action, but I was also winning with force. This method worked really well....until you meet someone stronger or more skillful than yourself. After some soul searching, I'd realised that I was contravening one of wing chun's main principles \ concepts : using brute force against brute force. In order to better myself, I want back to square one and started all over again, but this time I took great care in developing my sensitivity skills, and used far less strentgh in training.

So you see, this is the very reason why I'd started this topic. Every wing chun forum you care to visit, practitioners are ridiculing each other, citing that every thing others have posted \ stated is wrong or rubbish or both. If everybody thinks they are on the right track, and others that don't follow their path must be wrong, I'm very interested to know how they arrived at their conclusion. A lot of practitioners base their conclusion on what they have been taught, but as we all know, sometimes this is not enough. Some base their conclusion on their street fights. Again, this is not enough, since people with no wing chun skills at all can also fight well on the street.

Again, I'm interested how others have deduced that they are on the right wing chun path.

[stricker]

isn't the ability to comply with the concepts of wing chun in your application of the techniques the highest expression of the skill?nah thats putting the chicken before the egg to say comply with the concepts. thats like saying make up a ridiculous art and then the highest level of skill is to make it work. but if you mean something looser like the aim of wing chun is to fight in an easy way where you finish fights very quickly then yeah thats the high level skill. thats why i like wing chun it looks easy and always works (supposedly :p )


In order to better myself, I want back to square one and started all over again, but this timegood going that deserves respect.


Every wing chun forum you care to visit, practitioners are ridiculing each other, citing that every thing others have posted \ stated is wrong or rubbish or both.well then theyre a-holes, and leave em to it. sometimes you got to argue a counter point to get a good debate, but if your attitudes out then how are you ever gonna learn anything???


If everybody thinks they are on the right track, and others that don't follow their path must be wrong, I'm very interested to know how they arrived at their conclusion. Again, I'm interested how others have deduced that they are on the right wing chun path.i dont think anyone ever knows truly. i mean however good you are or the path your on theres always someone better, hiding out on a mountain in deepest china somewhere :D

1.Do any of you question what you have been taught?
Of course. 9 times out of 10 its all been good. A few of those times its taken a while to work out, ive had doubts questions etc but youve got to trust your teacher to learn. if your an ahole and think you know better than the teacher you aint getting anywhere.

2. How do you know you are on the right track, and everybody else is on the wrong track?
Well im on my track and thats all i know about. the track has had little turns and changes in direction but its the best ive got. maybe its the best hahaha im better than all you lot :D but that sounds unrealistic to me to imagine i know what everyone else in the world is doing!

3. If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?
phew thats a tough question and i honestly dont know as its never happened to me. 15 years is a looong time and i hope if that happened i had the courage to do it. but, if your sensible (dont put all your eggs in one basket, cross-check, expand your horizons, etc) and if your 15 year "wrong track" is still a good track then you can only find a better track. so its not so black and white just shades of great :D

(in fact thinking about it i have started again. my last "hobby" i did for about 10 years and ive only taken my first few steps down this newer road. i was actually good at something before :()

[anerlich]

Martial art training could be similar to walking the religion or spiritual or mystics path

And here's two of them, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, on the subject:

Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

from a song ... um ... what was it called again?

Whether or not you are on the right path depends at least partly on what destination you have in mnd. And in that regard, there is much variation.

A good instructor encourages his students to question things, think for themselves and determine their own solutions to problems. They give advice, rather than acting as a vehcile for the transmission of dogma.

Bad ones tell you their system is engraved on stone tablets somewhere in a hidden Chinese cave, and only they have had access to the complete truth, which they make available to you at a pace designed to increase your dependency on them.

I followed that particular wrong path for five years.

If you really want to explore, and understand, you sometimes have to go down a track that turns out to be a dead end. If you just want to follow in the footsteps, that's different.


although it is unclear how you arrived at the 99%

I'd reckon he got it from the same Bureau of Unsupported Statistics that gave the Gracies "90% of streetfights end up on the ground".

[chisauking]

anerlich sez: I followed that particular wrong path for five years.

That's exactly the point I'm getting at. You seem like you are a well educated man, therefore you have the insight to question your self. And the whole point of this topic is to get wing chun practitioners to do the same.


anerlich sez: I'd reckon he got it from the same Bureau of Unsupported Statistics that gave the Gracies "90% of streetfights end up on the ground".

It's my own personal believe, based on my many years of wing chun journey, that only the true wing chun disciple would truly recognise this ingenuis system. Most -- 99% -- are just supporting actors in the play of life.

[chisauking]

anerlich sez: I'd reckon he got it from the same Bureau of Unsupported Statistics that gave the Gracies "90% of streetfights end up on the ground".


Ho, ho, ho, and it's often parrotted by 99% of BBJ's and WC people who thinks they are BBJ's

[bcbernam777]

BCB,
When I think of the idea of questioning what I am being taught, I think of it from the point of view of questioning my own understanding of what I have been taught. Not necessarily the source of the information; in other words your sifu.
I'm sure we've all had the experience of thinking we "know" a certain concept and having one of those "ah-ha" moments some time later when we discover a deeper understanding, and then thinking....... "so that's what he meant when he told me this so many months ago".
I have tremendous respect for my sifu, and I came to Wing Chun as a bit of a sceptic. For reasons very similar the ones that you've ennumerated, and the fact that he's just a great person, I think I'll be hanging around for some time to come. Even he says that we should be good students, not blind followers. Who wants to train a bunch of mindless robots?


Tis true Matrix, Sifu is often saying to me, that you have to learn for yourself, he doesn't want us to become robots, just doing but never thinking, so in that respect we agree. I guess my reply was a little to one dimensional:o

[canglong]

It's my own personal believe, based on my many years of wing chun journey, that only the true wing chun disciple would truly recognise this ingenuis system. Most -- 99% -- are just supporting actors in the play of life.chisauking, can anything be done to change this?

[couch]

1.Do any of you question what you have been taught?
Of course. 9 times out of 10 its all been good. A few of those times its taken a while to work out, ive had doubts questions etc but youve got to trust your teacher to learn. if your an ahole and think you know better than the teacher you aint getting anywhere.

2. How do you know you are on the right track, and everybody else is on the wrong track?
Well im on my track and thats all i know about. the track has had little turns and changes in direction but its the best ive got. maybe its the best hahaha im better than all you lot :D but that sounds unrealistic to me to imagine i know what everyone else in the world is doing!

3. If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?
phew thats a tough question and i honestly dont know as its never happened to me. 15 years is a looong time and i hope if that happened i had the courage to do it. but, if your sensible (dont put all your eggs in one basket, cross-check, expand your horizons, etc) and if your 15 year "wrong track" is still a good track then you can only find a better track. so its not so black and white just shades of great :D

(in fact thinking about it i have started again. my last "hobby" i did for about 10 years and ive only taken my first few steps down this newer road. i was actually good at something before :()

I like the part where you say "shades of great."

Honestly, not everything I am taught I agree with. Do I agree with Chi Sau making up about 90% of class time? Not really. But I take what I can get. Not a lot of people end up with ALL the pieces, I believe, so you need to do the research.

This forum is great for that and I mean, look at James (Sihing) for flying down south to learn some more of the puzzle. This is important if we want to grow.

So, I continue to partake in my Chi Sau and sometimes get into a conversation about combat. We don't spar, we don't put on any protection and make sure what we're learning works, etc. And that sucks! But the small piece of Wing Chun that I've gotten is a shade of the great that is out there.

8 years I spent at Kenpo Karate/Sh!tmix. It was hard to pick up and go somewhere else. After 4 years or so in Wing Chun (two different families), I decided to stop and take up western boxing. That was REALLY hard, but it was something that I needed to do in order to make me feel better about where my MA training was going.

You know, there's a few WC schools here in Calgary, but because of "Sifu" ties (that I may not discuss) and the past I've had with "commercial" schools I refuse go anywhere else.

So. I'm going to learn how to box for a while, visit and travel the WC world to get some more shades of greatness and start putting the pieces back together.

...only in something like KF could I say: "As long as I get all the pieces before I die!"

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[chisauking]

Canglong asked: chisauking, can anything be done to change this?

A: Not if you don't love wing chun and don't whole-heartedly believe in it, or have any faith in ALL its principles.

[stricker]

I like the part where you say "shades of great."

hehehe thanks i was having a smartass moment with the shades bit.



Honestly, not everything I am taught I agree with. Do I agree with Chi Sau making up about 90% of class time? Not really. But I take what I can get. Not a lot of people end up with ALL the pieces, I believe, so you need to do the research.
...
So, I continue to partake in my Chi Sau and sometimes get into a conversation about combat. We don't spar, we don't put on any protection and make sure what we're learning works, etc. And that sucks! But the small piece of Wing Chun that I've gotten is a shade of the great that is out there.
hey dude dont diss the chi sau its still good :) but you know in some ways thats like my situation, but mine is like its limitations of the situation more than anything else. eg we do practice counters padded up at wing chun but theres so much to learn (chi sao footwork forms blah blah blah) and given only x hours a week as a percentage i feel its way to low for me personally. also the other people (other classmates & teacher) are different. different level of skill strenghts weaknesses everyone has their own direction they want to go in.

so like you did boxing i joined mma which has given me far more than i ever expected or wanted. but still the stand up sparring time i spend there is quite low, as theres warm up, shadow boxing, padwork, pumelling, neck wrestling, takedown practice, ground work (technique, drills, sparring) fitness/conditioning etc etc etc so still stand up sparring time is low %age as most people are already good boxers so we do lots of wrestling sparring. again different skill levels strengths weaknesses etc

something i was thinking of the other day was the psychological aspect of preparing to fight, something i think we dont do nearly enough of at wing chun, but ive improved doing mma, but most people wouldnt have stuck through mma (very high drop out rate, came close myself but i can be suicidal lol) so what does everyone else do? what do you do if what your teacher(s) sets out for a class doesnt match what you want/need for your strengths/weaknesses ? i dont think i know better than my teachers but it has to boil down to your personal journey not the cookie cutter (stole from ernie ;) )


8 years I spent at Kenpo Karate/Sh!tmix. It was hard to pick up and go somewhere else. After 4 years or so in Wing Chun (two different families), I decided to stop and take up western boxing. That was REALLY hard, but it was something that I needed to do in order to make me feel better about where my MA training was going.go for it! before i joined mma the local boxing club shut down but i found a few weeks ago a new one opened up round the corner from me but im on the injured list right and its my jabbing arm :(



You know, there's a few WC schools here in Calgary, but because of "Sifu" ties (that I may not discuss) and the past I've had with "commercial" schools I refuse go anywhere else.

So. I'm going to learn how to box for a while, visit and travel the WC world to get some more shades of greatness and start putting the pieces back together.

...only in something like KF could I say: "As long as I get all the pieces before I die!"
yeah dude fk all the bs and get good. paint your own picture :D