Wah Lum Temple - Orlando

[Crushing Fist]

I am looking for any and all information about this school.

Especially their Live in Training program.

Anyone trained there or know someone who has?

The professional student program looks rather expensive, is it worth it?

[Oso]

5...4...3...2...1...

[tonglongtodei]

I dont know the history here (obviously there is some) but I've known people who trained and lived there. Check out www.wahlum.com

My sigung lived there and was a senior instructor for many years (many years ago, maybe in the 70's?). From everything I've seen from those who have trained there they get quality training. I'm not so sure about the fighting, but the training is pretty intense.

[mantid1]

The live in training may sound expensive. I would do a study of the area and find out what the cost of living is in the area. Check out the cost of apartments or what the cost of living in a college dorm would be for a year. I think you may discover that when it includes your training it may not seem so expensive.

From what I understand the physcal training is very demanding. You should be ready to work hard when you get there.

Wah Lum does not teach as many fightiing drills or self defense techniques as the other "mainstream" mantis schools. You would have to decide what is enough. They do address this with basic chin na techniques, two person forms and basic application theory as you learn solo sets.

I feel that one reason there is less two person drills is because they have so many students that go there. I think around 300. It would be very, very hard to teach a big class a lot of extensive two person drills. If you have 40 people in class it would take an hour just to learn one basic drill. Even if the students were trying. They must have something going for them since thye have so many students and do not have the colored belts and "Karate" name to pull in the students.

I think the lack of two person drills is one thing that must be sacrificed when a school grows. I have not seen many curriculms out there that can handle this well. I teach a lot of two person but I only have 65 students and even then it is difficult because only 50% try.

You could find an instructor who teaches only the fighting but with this type of instruction he would have less students and could not offer the service a full time school like this can. I think you can see the trade off.

Although it is not a mainstream mantis style they have produced many instructors who have gone out and started teaching other mainstream mantis styles within a year or so after leaving the wl system. They must teach enough along the lines of the mainstream guys to be able to produce a guy who can teach a mantis system in such a short time.

I could be a great foundation to get started on the fast track.

I am sure that is more info than you wanted. Just wanted to give you some posiitive and negative points to help you make a choice.

Teaching mantis is tough. Mr 108 of cck tcpm has one of the best curriculums for teaching praying mantis in a high quality fast method that I have come across. It gets to the point of fighting using mantis theory. It is yet to proven in teaching the masses but I think it can.

You would have to move to Yellowknife Canada to learn this system though:eek:

You may have more fun in Orlando:)

[Crushing Fist]

Thanks for both of those comments.


mantid1 - No amount of info is too much for me :)

The expense in and of itself doesn't seem ridiculous, assuming it covers room and board. The issue would be earning the money while staying there. Is it possible to hold down any sort of outside job while Live in Training? Is there possibly some kind of Live/Work arrangement they have for those willing? To me a temple is a place where you work to earn your keep and live there, and I certainly don't have the savings for what would basically be a kung fu college education or extended vacation.

When you say "not mainstream" I guess you are referring to the forms being different?

The website says they test students current ability and train them based on this. I like this concept.

What sort of "intense training" do they use? Lots of stance work and drills/callisthenics? or do they use other things as well (i.e. weightvest training, mayflower posts etc.)?

Thanks again.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

What some of the professional students do at the Temple is work at home and save up then come down and spend a few months training. When the money runs out they go back home and work and save again.

There are jobs around here but the problem with working here is not having enough time to train. You can't work here and be a professional student.

Professional training is more intensive than the regular class so a month for live-in students is like 2 or 3 for regular students. You take 2 regular classes (morning and evening) plus privates plus you're expected to train on your own in between.

[mantid1]

Mainstream would be more along the lines of 7 star, Plum flower, tai chi mantis, tai chi plum flower......etc.

Most mantis systems were developed from absorbing material from other systems but they maintain a similar "flavor" in the way the apply their techniques.

In my opinion one of the major differences is in the foot work. You know the footwork is the foundation. Since some of the manits footwork was replaced by the tan tui footwork in wl it did change things a bit. The dynamics are much different because of this. It is up to each individual to decide if it was for better or worse.

In the end it does not matter what style you are studying it all falls back to each individual instructor. There are "mainstream" guys out there who understand the fighting theories behind mantis and there are mainstream guys out there who do not. Same goes for wl instructors.

You cant go by forms to determine if mantis theories are being taught in a system. There may be a seven star instructor who knows 100 mantis forms but does not understand what makes the fighting system work.

You may have another seven star guy who only teaches three forms but has a handle on what the system is about and can teach it from a fighting point of view.

In my opinion the second guy would be the better choice for an instructor, But it all depends on what you want from your training.

I will never know all there is to know. I am just happy to know that I will always be able to learn more:)

[Corwyn]

I am very new to Wah Lum (about 4 months) and I come from a Karate background with ZERO experience in CMA.
I am not in the best of shape after 3 knee surgeries , but I still feel like I am in much better shape than the average person my age I come across. I started WH with my son because after he earned his Black Belt in Kempo he wanted to do something different. We watched Xtreme MA on Discovery and that was our first intro to Master Chan. When we started looking for a school we got lucky and found a school about 5 minutes from our house.
First and foremost we're both doing it because it's fun. But I certainly do not feel like I am suffering from a lack of fighting technigues and there is an emphasis on physical fitness which will always translate into fighting skills.
So if other schools are much tougher than WH then honestly I wouldn't really want to try them because they're for super athletes/fighters and there is just no way i could succeed.

From everything that I've heard about training at the temple from senior students it isn't a long term deal. It's kind of a boot camp for advanced students and want to be Sifus to sharpen their skills and get to work with Master Chan.

[BeiTangLang]

If you have knee problems, from what I have observed from viewing that system, it may not be your best choice.

Best wishes & good luck!
~BTL

[mantid1]

Bei is right knee problems could be an issure if want to become an instructor in the system. If you just want to train it should be ok.

A good instructor should be able to teach most students with physical limitations within reason. If an instructor or system can not adapt then it may not be that great of a system.

It all depends on how severe your problems are.

[yu shan]

The professional student program is good as long as your commited and willing to sacrifice. Think of it like an educational experience. You should expect to "live" this kung fu training 7 days a week. It is sort of an accelerated program. Yes you will have time for a part-time job. Some folks just dont like to work. But from what I understand, in the beginning you will be so dead tired you will not want to work. The intensity factor is from the forms work, there pretty challenging physically. The reason for the knee problems are simple, pm me and I can explain. BTW, what are your aspirations, do you want to be a teacher or just wanting to learn more? Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

[Radplaiddude]

Yeah i was always interested in that as a kid. Sounded like a great deal down there. Very interesting topic we got going here.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I started to reply to the question of knee problems and legs in general but then decided against.

Since it's been brought up again why not discuss it openly? No need for PM.

Not trying to stir anything up but seriously, go ahead and explain the problem because personally I don't understand it and I'm interested in hearing the details.

As I understand it some believe the leg alignment is wrong but from my own experience it's the same as I learned in the multiple Kenpo schools, TKD, Shotokan, etc. and others over the years. It's a 'boxers' stance, lead toe turned inwards.

I've been doing it that way since 1974 and it hasn't ruined my knees. I also don't see this claim levelled at other styles with the same stances.

Now, the overall training is very tough on the legs and if you don't train your way up to it you'll hurt yourself trying to do some of the advanced stuff.

Please explain as I really want to understand what this issue is about.


BTW, I don't mean to be arguing with you Jim but the intensity isn't so much from the forms work as it is the drills that wear you down before you even get to the forms. I can only speak about the Temple itself, your training may have been a little different (but I KNOW it was hella hard).

I found a couple of pictures of fighters with the turned in lead toe. Maybe that's not the issue and it's something else but I'm just not following you guys.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm really sorry, it's going to sound like I'm picking on you guys and you're all much better than me but now I'm curious.

In the first picture Steve and John look like they have toe forward, yours looks very slightly turned in (force of habit maybe or optical illusion), but Master Shr is definitely turned in.

So do you guys train lead toe pointing forward like Taiji or do you turn it in slightly protecting the groin with your lead knee?

[18elders]

WL knee problems are from the horse and side horse stances, wu dip ma(butterfly stance)gwai ma.
In the PL pic, we are in transitional move in the pic but the toe is turned in. You have to straighten the foot to transition forward.

Here is a great pic of the wl knee problem

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thanks for the reply, and explanation. Wu Dip Ma is a tough one and takes a lot of practice. What's interesting is how often it appears in the forms. Hardly at all actually.

Interesting yong fa for it though but no good at all if not trained.

As for the others (sei ping ma (riding horse), dun san ma (hill climbing) and gwai ma (kneeling)) I have to disagree unless you can explain specifically what's done wrong in those 3 stances.

I was thinking it was the turned in toe being poor alignment but guess I was wrong. All I ever hear is that the WL leg alignment is off on their stances. Maybe someone can explain how Wah Lum riding horse or hill climbing horse differs from other styles.

I've also attached a photo of my representation of die bok ma with double broadswords for anyone to correct if I'm not doing it right. But then I'm not exactly the best representation of Wah Lum since are many more out there much better than myself.

[Crushing Fist]

WL knee problems are from the horse and side horse stances, wu dip ma(butterfly stance)gwai ma.
In the PL pic, we are in transitional move in the pic but the toe is turned in. You have to straighten the foot to transition forward.

Here is a great pic of the wl knee problem


This pic shows very bad alignment on the back leg

The way I understand it the foot and knee need to be pointing in the same direction, or least close to it. Otherwise the strain on the knee can cause serious soft tissue damage.

Turning the front foot in is a good stance... as long as you turn the knee too. All the Tai Chi I do (Yang and Chen) uses this type of stance.

Hua Lin, I can't really tell from your pic but your stance does not appear to have this problem, at least not to such an extreme.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I always keep my knee over my toe. That's how I learned and nobody has ever told me any different. That's how you prevent problems and most likely the reason I never developed a problem in my 25+ years of training.

That is also how I taught during my time at the Temple and with my own short lived school. I don't recall any instructors teaching it any different either so I can't say Wah Lum does it 'wrong'.

[Crushing Fist]

The professional student program is good as long as your commited and willing to sacrifice. Think of it like an educational experience. You should expect to "live" this kung fu training 7 days a week. It is sort of an accelerated program. Yes you will have time for a part-time job. Some folks just dont like to work. But from what I understand, in the beginning you will be so dead tired you will not want to work. The intensity factor is from the forms work, there pretty challenging physically. The reason for the knee problems are simple, pm me and I can explain. BTW, what are your aspirations, do you want to be a teacher or just wanting to learn more? Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.


What are my aspirations? good question

well I already am a teacher, not in mantis but in the art of "shaolin-do"

::waits for booing and hissing to stop::

What I have seen of mantis has always made it a favorite style of mine, and the mantis itself is one of my favorite creatures.

Now what is my aspiration?

Well I have wanted to start a kung fu temple of my very own for quite some time...

A place where serious students can live and train without the need for outside attachments or money. Sure, classes could be offered for outsiders which could help with revenue for the temple, but for the core live-in students the only requirement would be to work... hard physical labor. I'm thinking an organic perma-culture farm so that the produce could both feed the students and be sold to markets to provide more of the revenue needed for such a place. Kung Fu training and demanding phyiscal labor... what could be better? Think of it as a hippie commune without the hippies and more hand to hand combat.

I almost began this once at an existing wanna-be hippie commune type place, but decided against it at the time for various reasons.

So that is my aspiration...


You may say I'm a dreamer...


but I'm not the only one.

[yu shan]

I think you are on to something Crushing Fist, sounds like a neat concept. Maybe we can all give some ideas or experiences. No hissing sounds from me, btw.

[Judge Pen]

It is a neat concept, but I can hear the "cult" naysayer's clearing their throats.

I remember reading advertisements in old Black Belt magazines about community type schools etc. As far as I know, WL is the most successful at this type of environment.

[Crushing Fist]

Thanks for the postive feedback guys...


Yes, the naysayers shall always say their nays, but I'm certainly not looking for a cultish environment. I would just like to have a nice place outside the rat race where martial arts training and sane living could co-exist.

As long as you have to pay to be somewhere it just doesn't feel like a temple to me, more like martial arts club med. I'm not looking to found a religion here, just a place where that lifestyle would be possible. Unless there already is one... then all I have to do is get there!

But, assuming no such place exists, a month at an operating facilty like the WL temple may give some insight into how such a place could function successfully.

This is an idea that has been simmering in the back of my brain for awhile, and now I can really feel it bubbling back up again... is that inspiration I smell?

I would love to hear about ideas/experiences that would relate to this...

perhaps with the kind help of interested forum members, something great might just be created.

I've got some R&D to get to, meanwhile lets hear some thoughts from the panel...

[ironfenix]

Hello all,
Just finished a great weekend with Art Laoshi in florida. Did a fantastic whip chain set. The problem with the knees isn't from the pong lai stance where the toes are turned in. The problem arises when the student takes low stances before they are ready, and are not corrected by the teacher. I messed up my knee really bad and the doc said to lay off kung fu unless I would have gotten surgery. All because i was turning my knee inwards in cat stances, & glacing at the moon stances/poses. The fact that I have skinny legs allowed me to go low, but I hadn't built up my joints to handle it. My first teacher saw my stances but never said a thing. Hualin Laoshi has his knee turned outward, which makes it more difficult to go into a low stance (at least without practice) but keeps the joints healthy.

There is also no need to water down the classes for the sake of commercialism. Two person drills & forms are in fact EASIER to teach to masses than the traditional way of breaking up the class and teaching level specific exercises (i.e. this group does set 1, this other group does set 2, and the one student that has stuck around learns set 3). One instructor can teach two person drills and sets to 30 + people ( I do it all the time). You do not have to water anything down, just break it down. Shifu Arthur has this killer teaching program as well as a great business model that radically increases your bottom line. It is possible to fight/spar with good technique, and teach forms, and self defense skills, and physical conditioning, and keep most of your students.

Anyway watch out with those stances (the picture of that WL guy with the double broadswords is a perfect example). Turn those knees out!

train hard,
israel

[18elders]

Your alignment is much better than in the pic posted. The problem is that people are not corrected( you can't argue that as the picture is of a long time wl sifu) why is his stance not correct?????
WL horse stance is done wider than the way i was taught. People who go wider with the stance usually stand with their knees improperly aligned with the foot.

Ironfenix-
got some pics of you and your wife doing lion, send me your email and i will send them to you.

Hope you guys had a good time with Art, tell him happy BD from all us pong lai people when u chat with him.

[spiralstair]

You have to be strong, or young, or very light in weight to do low stances.

The correct teaching method is toes in line with knees, and the most crucial instruction, with body upright one must still be able to see some of the front of the foot while looking down over the weighted knee. Like all movement rules, once you have a sufficient strength-to-weight ratio you can ‘break’ the rule.
As a teacher I always tell my students to align their lower limbs following the rules I outlined above, but that I won’t always do it that way, because I have developed a high degree of leg strength to support my weight. It’s a case of “do as I say, not as I do”, until they have the strength to protect themselves.

So showing pictures of Sifu level practitioners in low postures while criticizing their stances tells us nothing about how those same Sifus teach their students. Duh.

Some high level CMA masters have extreme strength-to-weight abilities that allow them to perform very low stance changes fluidly. To me that’s the way to tell whether the student has developed the strength to perform the ‘very low’. Do they have to make a little internal ‘bounce’ to assist themselves in changing out of a low stance? If so, they are not stronger enough for the depth. The transition should be smooth, like in good T’ai Chi, keeping ‘the heavy side down’.

[mantiskilla]

"So showing pictures of Sifu level practitioners in low postures while criticizing their stances tells us nothing about how those same Sifus teach their students. Duh."


How about their students that have to receive knee surgery? Does that help? I personally had problems with my right knee and it was not until two years or so AFTER I quit Wah Lum that it finally went away, and I never quit kung fu, just found a teacher. I know people from Wah Lum that are not so lucky, but I only have experience with one school in the system. I dont really buy the whole "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to physical structure, or body mechanics. The structure is in place for a reason.
________
YourBettina (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/YourBettina/)

[18elders]

caught some heat for putting up pictures of people's kids.
Here is a pic of my kid( he is in the blue with the hat on), it was last last year in china, he was 4 years old at the time.

[spiralstair]

Mantiskilla
I'm sorry about your lack of instruction in how to stand in relation to the ground. Everyone deserves decent instruction. Unfortunately, not all teachers can give it. I was trying to make a different point about pictures of advanced stance positions.


Have you seen any pictures of Bode Miller skiing downhill? Totally wrong structure, hips too far back, downhill ski un weighted, knees bent waay too far back? All he does is win with that form. So you think Bode would tell a beginner to ‘do it like I do’?

Seen any pictures of Tiger Woods at the top of his follow through? Andy Rod**** at the end of his forehand? The torque that’s evident in their structure would destroy a lesser athlete. Should a beginner try and do it like they do? Or maybe we should screen advanced strength pictures in case someone thinks improper structure in an advanced athlete is something to emulate.

18 Elders
Your kid looks great.

[Shaolinlueb]

caught some heat for putting up pictures of people's kids.
Here is a pic of my kid( he is in the blue with the hat on), it was last last year in china, he was 4 years old at the time.

is that the west lake in hangzhou?

[Brad]

Mantiskilla
I'm sorry about your lack of instruction in how to stand in relation to the ground. Everyone deserves decent instruction. Unfortunately, not all teachers can give it. I was trying to make a different point about pictures of advanced stance positions.
Why is it ok to have poor structure just because you're "advanced"? I've seen some old masters use low stances, but the structure was still pretty good. Intentionally using poor structure in stances to go lower isn't going to help any, it's just going to put un-needed stress on the joints in order to look pretty. In kungfu, some techniques are just more practical when done with proper structure. For example, the forward stance with the toes turned in. When you turn the knee in alignment with the toes it's a nice attack on the opponent's leg (I've had it done to me before :p), if you don't turn the knee with the toes what good is it? You'd just be turning your foot in with nothing to back it up.

[yu shan]

18, your kids stance looks better than mine.

Anyway, back to the topic. Maybe you should live at the dorm and go thru a typical month of pro-student training. I am very sure you could sit and chat with Master Chan and Mimi. Then you can go from there. If you are going to have dorm rooms, keep them clean. I myself would not train or live in filth. Have you heard of Shangwu farms? (sp?) You might visit with Shifu Art D`Agostino and see what he has going, I hear his retreat is very cool. Plus he is just a great guy to hang out with, and his Mantis is good.

[isol8d]

Your alignment is much better than in the pic posted. The problem is that people are not corrected( you can't argue that as the picture is of a long time wl sifu) why is his stance not correct?????
WL horse stance is done wider than the way i was taught. People who go wider with the stance usually stand with their knees improperly aligned with the foot.

Ironfenix-
got some pics of you and your wife doing lion, send me your email and i will send them to you.

Hope you guys had a good time with Art, tell him happy BD from all us pong lai people when u chat with him.

My photoshop died, but I was going to paste a bit of Nick Scrima's division sheet for this year.

*SPECIAL EVENTS*
Horse Stance Competition
Kids Ages >12
Juniors Ages 12-14
Teens ages 15-17

Horse.jpg reminds me of that, not of buddha breathing hands.

[Crushing Fist]

Thanks for the lead... Shangwu Farms looks like it could be what I'm looking for.

I sent an email asking about some specifics, so we'll see what happens.

Chen Taiji and Mantis with Qigong are right on target for me.


Has anyone been there?

Done the live-in training?

[yu shan]

A member of kfo named ironfenix trains there under the tutelage of Shifu Art. You might send him a pm, but I`m sure when he catches wind of this he will post.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think that's a fairly new setup he has down there so you probably aren't going to find many who have done the live-in training.

Of course you could be among the first and blaze the trail instead of following.

Hey Steve, where the heck is the new school? I was down that way a few times recently and I thought you said it was just around the corner from the old place.

I had to go out Hillsborough past the airport but the address still wasn't as high as the address number I have for the school. I wanted to see what it looks like. Maybe I have the wrong address.

Last time I was down in Safety Harbor but didn't have time on the way back. I don't get down there as much as I used to but I'd still like to see the new place.

[mantiskilla]

"Have you seen any pictures of Bode Miller skiing downhill? Totally wrong structure, hips too far back, downhill ski un weighted, knees bent waay too far back? All he does is win with that form. So you think Bode would tell a beginner to ?do it like I do??

Seen any pictures of Tiger Woods at the top of his follow through? Andy Rod**** at the end of his forehand? The torque that?s evident in their structure would destroy a lesser athlete. Should a beginner try and do it like they do? Or maybe we should screen advanced strength pictures in case someone thinks improper structure in an advanced athlete is something to emulate."



None of these people teach. Martial arts are nothing if not visual, and a student gets their base knowledge by emulating the teachers movement before finding their own way eventually. So you can say one thing, but the student more than likely will do what they see you do. After all it works for you, right? Maybe you're a freak of nature and can get away with it, but most people cannot, hence the anomaly I just mentioned. Also, look at Nolan Ryan. Supposedly he had the 'perfect' pitching motion, which may explain 20 some years of throwing a baseball close to 100 mph, and then you have people like Kerry Woods who cant seem to make it through a full year in his 20's. It has been argued the reason for his contiued injuries are due to his poor mechanics. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060315mitchell,1,4161254.column?coll=cs-home-utility Of course he could just be injury prone, who knows?

There is a lot more to structure in martial arts than just preventing injury, in many cases it is the difference between a technique working and not working, and that is also part of the reason why I said earlier structure or mechanics are in place for a reason. You may be able to 'muscle through' a lot of stuff when you are strong, but when you face someone who is stronger than yourself, that is when your mechanics will be put to the test. It may keep someone from destroying one of your joints. That's why it's 'martial arts', not 'martial whateverthehellyoufeellikedoing'.

Maybe we should start another thread on mechanics.
________
AVANDIA SIDE EFFECTS (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/avandia/)

[spiralstair]

mantiskilla
Good points.

On Bode, Tiger, Andy…
Of course they don’t teach, but when they do, should they cleanse the world of photos that show bad mechanics because some poor unaware student somewhere might try it ‘that way’? Yes, I think they should.
What about Kerry Woods? A succession of bad teachers, I guess.

I’m 52 years old. Not a freak of nature. Done Wah Lum for 30 years. No problems with my knees, hips, back. I pay attention to my structural mechanics based on what I already outlined in my post on page 2 of this thread. I do the same for my students, in fact I insist on it. Too bad your previous teacher did not. In styles with low stances like Wah Lum, Chen T’ai Chi etc. mechanics are doubly important because of the angles of force expressed through the lower limbs. Students can develop problems, usually slowly, which makes it hard to trace back to the source.

My take on it is that good movement, of all kinds, and even most of what MAists call 'chi phenomena', is just structural mechanics done well.
Peace

[mantiskilla]

"My take on it is that good movement, of all kinds, and even most of what MAists call 'chi phenomena', is just structural mechanics done well."

I agree. I have seen my teacher do some things that were pretty amazing for his size, when broken down it was just good engineering and structure. BTW, if you are 52 years old and have had no problems with your back or knees, you may be a freak of nature. LOL
________
Wendie 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[3 Rotor]

IIRC the choreography from the Disney cartoon Mulan was from the Wah Lum school.

There was a tv special about Grandmaster Pui Chan several years back on A&E or maybe discovery.

[tonglongtodei]

IIRC the choreography from the Disney cartoon Mulan was from the Wah Lum school.

There was a tv special about Grandmaster Pui Chan several years back on A&E or maybe discovery.

From what I understand quite a bit of choreography from various games and such comes from the temple. Mulan (the character) was done exclusively from Mimi Chan I believe.

[ironfenix]

Shang Wu farms provides live in training. And like jim said, shifu is just a cool guy to be around.

HuaLin - Actually he does have some students doing the live in training. It is nice up there. He will probably take some guys to TaiJi legacy.

18 elders- info@floreskungfu.com thanks in advanced for the pictures.

[Yung Apprentice]

I thought they had sparring classes at the temple on Thursdays?

[woliveri]

I'm comiing in late on this one so I'm just going to through some stuff out.

In my opinion the secret for getting these low stances right such as the Tom Hasse photo is stretching. All the WL stretches, Elbow to Toe, Center and Side stretches, etc. If someone doesn't have the flexibility to do the stance then the result will be injury eventually because the correct position cannot be formed.

I think this is Tom's problem. As I remember his flexibilty needed work so the result is such a photo. That was 15 years ago or so so he could have fixed himself up.

When I was at WL I didn't receive instruction on the above comment, I had to think about it and work it out for myself.

Another problem with the Sifu program at WL (IMHO) is that WL is a business so Sifu Chan may feel "obligated" in a business sense to advance someone to Sifu level even though they may not be ready or in reality, may never be ready.

To contrast, I'm currently in Shanghai training Bagua Zhang for the last 6 weeks. I train 1 to 3 hours a day, everyday and I didn't learn anything for the last 6 weeks other than Basics. No form, just Basics, Bagua basics. I just now started learning a form and I think it's only because I have a MA background that I'm able to do that now.

My teacher's kung fu brother told me that he trained basics for 3 years before he was able to learn a form. The point is, some students want to learn forms and of course I do too, but we cannot forget basics. Always working on correct form, stretching, etc.

Being in Shanghai for the last 6 months I've seen some things. I've seen old ladys who couldn't weigh over 90 pounds doing stances that would make me squirm and they do it with ease. Chinese train daily which is sometimes difficult for us in the US due to financial obligations.

So where am I going...? don't know... just food for thought.
:D :D :D

Oh, one more thing. One secret at WL that most people don't see is what MC eats. He keeps and has kept a flat stomach since I've known him. He eats light, soups and not much fried food as I remember. If you guys at the temple have the chance you should observe this. I think it's one of the secrets that allows him to be so quick and have low stances. Also, not eating too much "fire" foods allows his stretch to remain.

[isol8d]

I thought they had sparring classes at the temple on Thursdays?

I think it is on Friday nights...

[Chop Socki]

I'm also coming late to this thread, and it's branched off into several side topics though by now it's come most of the way back, but there was something said earlier that I wanted to respond to.

I routinely see systems evaluated on this forum based on what is often a very narrow sampling of a small number of instructors. The theory is that you can say with some degree of authority that 'system X doesn't emphasize aspect Y', and even though it's often followed with something like 'for my taste' or 'imho', I find the basic premise that you can categorize an entire system based on the emphasis of a specific instructor has always baffled me.

Sure, every well-developed system has a core curriculum, and it's safe to assume that every instructor certified to teach that system is familiar with and passes along those basics at some point. It's what comes after that that really distinguishes a school, and that's the part that's almost entirely dictated by a specific instructor. I've trained at the Wah Lum Temple several times with a number of people including Master Chan, I've been fortunate enough to receive invitations to attend classes in various styles both locally and when I've travelled, and in all cases, while the underlying thread was dictated by the system, the characteristics and specific material being stressed by the instructor came from two things:
(1) his personal strengths and interests, and
(2) the aptitude and interests of the students

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to inject drama or pick fights, but I've watched Tai Chi students back away with shocked expressions when an instructor tried to demonstrate the applications of the beautiful techniques they've spent months learning, just as I've seen beginners who try to puzzle out fighting applications of every new technique they're shown. I guess what I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day, every school is a business; the instructor, as the head chef, has a great deal of influence over the ingredients, but the menu is going to be designed to appeal to the regular customers.

Sorry for the novel,

- CS

[mantid1]

Good novel:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Evaluation should be based on identifiable characteristics of the system demonstrated effectively in live-action sparring. The game is Martial Arts.

MMA has done a great service AND dis-service to CMA.. the service was to up the ante to realistic situations.. the dis-service was to inspire CMA to adopt MMA strategies rather than hone their own skills to compensate..

Be well..

[Chop Socki]

Good novel:)

Thanks - I'll try to avoid turning it into a series. ;)

- CS