CLF differences between branches

[hskwarrior]

ok i agree that a comparison of each branch and focus on some differences and similarities. and im going to put what we come up with here on the webpage, so those who participate can be proud of contributing.

so i wanted to start a discussion on what your observations of other branches and what they do or don't do that's different to your school.

For example, the horses between our branches vary even when it comes to the same exact horse. In Lau Bun's Branch the horse in a little wider than the shoulders and our tails are level with our knees. but i have seen in both the Buk Sing and Lee Koon Hung branches some very long and wide horses.

of course we notice that buk sing really focuses on getting the most out of a technique especially when they use their panther fists.

some schools do really low to the ground sweeps when others stay only mid level.

so you see where i'm going with this. so if you would like to see what we come up with posted up on my website for the world to see all branches working together lets jump on it.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

another thing,

what do you do or your school does that you see others don't?

or even see things that they do and you wouldn't.


hsk

[Fu-Pow]

One obvious thing I notice is the difference between Bak Sing and Fut San Hung Sing vs. Chan Family is the that Chan Family uses the "double puhn kiuh" also known as "daat jeung, gok ahn." Maybe I am wrong about Fut San Hung Sing not using this technique but its like everywhere in the LKH forms.

Another thing I notice is the more blatant extension and whipping motion in Bak Sing. To me this looks very ugly, slow and a good way to hyper extend your joints. I've always been taught that everything should move together. Some parts may move in front of other parts but they all move in concert. Also, not too extended or you set yourself up for a joint lock.

[hskwarrior]

Double poon kiu is with palms facing up and thumbs facing outwards right?

sorry, chinese terminology is not my thing, but if it is the same on im thinking of then it is taught, the singapore hung sing does it as well.

but true, not too common.

[Fu-Pow]

Yep you got it.

[hskwarrior]

ok then,

yeah its in the hung sing stuff, there should be a photo attached.

this is the one right?

[hskwarrior]

the one thing i will focus on first is the basics like the different ways to execute a simple chop choy.

another thing i've noticed when some schools execute the cum jeung but use it as a palm strike they usually go straight like a push. but in our school its always used to crush with intead of a push.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

how many have seen the Movie Tom Yum Goong?

there is a lot of stuff and the he executes elbows and such just like the way we do in our school. theres even a part where one guy threw hella punches and Tony Jaa using both hands one after another started slapping down his hands, thats's how we use it as well, and was what my si-suk gung Kenneth used against bruce lee.

But fu pow, in real life application how would "YOU" use the double Poon Kiu's?
can you come up with any other applications for it?


hsk

[Fu-Pow]

ok then,

yeah its in the hung sing stuff, there should be a photo attached.

this is the one right?

No, sorry that's not it. That is called double yeung kiuh or mirror hand. Double puhn kiuh has the hands doing different things that's why it could also be called "dat jeung, gok an."

FP

[hskwarrior]

ok here is something that i've been keeping under my hat because to me its a step above the average fu jow (tiger Claw).

now you know one of my favorite hand shapes is the tiger claw. but this is why the buk sing kwoon is so well known for their fighting.

there is an old man in China who is around like 97-98 years old. he was one of the older students of Tam Sam like Lun Chee is. this man only calls his school hung sing kwoon because that was the name of his teachers (Tam Sam) school was.

anyway, my sifu was shown and new hand to us called "FU SAU" which is just like the tiger claw except that the thumb is not used to tear, the thumb is more like a brace that goes under the chin while your fingers reach out and tear the face.

in the photo attached the inside part of the thumb is what i'm talking about.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

so fu pow what are the hands doing then?

we may just call it something else thats why im asking.


hsk

[TenTigers]

is this stuff being put on a site now, or are you getting all the input now, and then going to put it up later?

[hskwarrior]

rick this is the drawing board and all is welcome to add their input. ultimately i am going to decipher everything anyway with my POV, but e'rayones observations are welcome.

then i will add it to the 3 families history site.


hsk

[TenTigers]

Fu-Pow mentioned how he did not care for the whipping, na d full extension of Buk-Sing. I have studeied a smatterring of Chan family ,which seems to have a definate Hung flavor-shorter, more powerful appearance, but I really like the Buk-Sing's openness. It has a "lighter" feel-hard to explain, but I have seen it played and it has a feeling of continuous flow,like Tai-Chi (not slow, or soft looking, just fluid) and it ihas great running and leaking skills, not to mention a charp choy that will hit you from 6 feet away. It is interesting to see two people play these different family styles side by side. Not to see which is better, but to appreciate the development and diversity of the systems.
Is there any footage of these forms being done? If at all possible could it be put on yourtube or puterfile, as my pc doesnt seem to show aol media-it crashes.

[hskwarrior]

10-t,

yeah i agree. but the one thing i've noticed is that the buk sing and hung sing disciples approach their clf with the intentions of hurting someone.

buk sing has things like "the flying panther punch" which is devestating if executed properly.

but can you imagine if the today's top choy lee fut masters of all three branches came together for an intensive study to sift thru it all and extrapulate the best of all three branches?


but, each branch even in the same school has slight differences because each individual will add in what works best for them. for example, sifu george may be a big guy and because of that he will focus on things that work for him. that then gets transmitted and after a few students it will become the norm, while sifu george's classmate sifu fred is a lot smaller, quicker, and a little more fiesty due to his size. so he will pass on that type of mentality and his students will pick that up. and unfortunatley that will lead to a few different ways even in your own school to be formed.

my sifu watches me teach, and has made comments that frank does his gung fu his way, and i have mine.

thats the great thing about gung fu. my sifu gave me the tools, and taught me to make Choy Lee Fut "mine" so i developed my method of usage based on my own body type, what types of techniques i feel suit me better, and so on.

we really do need to bring choy lee fut together.


frank

[Kennyfist]

rick this is the drawing board and all is welcome to add their input. ultimately i am going to decipher everything anyway with my POV, but e'rayones observations are welcome.

then i will add it to the 3 families history site.


hsk
HSK,
QUOTE: "ultimately i am going to decipher everything anyway with my POV"

NOW IS THAT A RECIPE FOR DISASTER?:rolleyes: :D

HSK, YOU CAN'T EVEN GET THE NAMES OF THE TECHNICAL TERMS RIGHT....SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PUT EVERYTHING THROUGH YOUR "DECIPHERING"?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[hskwarrior]

Your Momma!!!!!!!:d

[lianweizhi]

hsk, to help answer your question about the double poon kiu:

a poon kiu is a circular block, and there are a few variations of it in the LKH line (I'm a 7th generation student, grandmaster is my si-gung)

A) Dahn poon kiu - this is the inside to outside circular block often seen when we execute sow choys, i.e. left hand circles clockwise as we shift from right to left gong ma and throw the right sow choy. The left hand executes the dahn, or single, poon kiu.

B) Seurng (double) poon kiu(a) - this is the technique that I think fu pow is referring to. The most common place we see this technique is in the following sequence - usually something like diu ma (cat stance) chin la-seurng poon kiu - sei ping ma chop choy (or fujow, or chin ji choy, or chang jeurng, or whatever). In this technique, the left hand drops downwards, palm up, all the way around into a grab or a cum jeurng at the end. In mid-rotation, the right hand flips forward and performs its own circle, ending above the shoulder, where you can follow up with a yum chop choy. The first block is actually the right hand making contact with the forearm, followed by the left hand's grab or cum jeurng. Two circles --> Double poon kiu.

C) Seurng poon kiu (b) - a variant on the double poon kiu, seen before the chang fu knee kick techniques and sow geuk sweeps, as well as sow choys. Unlike variation (a), this one is better done in a more square stance rather than a cat stance, although (a) can work in a stance other than a cat stance as well. This one starts basically the same as variation (a) but is more east-west. Again, the left hand drops and then the right hand performs it's forward circle. This time, however, the left hand follows a wider path - it shoots all the way to the left as you step towards the left, then circles clockwise inside to out, as in the dahn poon kiu, effectively "sticking" the opponents strike, then sweeps it back outside, opening the opponent up for the sow choy following up.

Hopefully that made sense - It's probably way easier to show than type!

Fu-pow, Sisuk, or anyone else, please make any corrections if you see something stupid :P

GL

[hskwarrior]

Its Always Better To Show And If Anyone Wants To Post Up A Picture That Would Help.

The Thing Is Up To My Sigung Jew Leong Lau Bun's School Was All Chinese. In My School Under My Sifu We Rarely Use Chinese Terminologies, All Our Own Terms For What We Do. Usually In English.

I Am Most Confident That All Choy Lee Fut Does The Same Things In One Fashion Or Another. Only Minor Individualistic Modifications Set Them Apart From This Teacher Or That Teacher.

Watching The Lkh Lineage As Well As Other Clf Schools, I've Realized That We Have The Same Stuff. Where Some Schools Fractionate A Technique We Have Pretty Much Blended One Into The Other.

As In Our Circle Chop Choy. We Use The Downward Circle Block But Instead Of Stopping At The Block We Blend Something Very Similar To "kum" Or Cover Palm But It Turns Into The Same Poon Kiu And Clears The Punch And Then We Throw A Chop Choy.

Our Circle Block Is Used In My Opinion To Block Two Punches With The Same Hand. Lets Say Your Lead Hand Is Right, And Left Is In Reverse, Your Opponent Throws A Low Punch To The Stomach, But The Shoots A Punch To You Face. So Instantly From The Downward Circle Block Continue The Motion And Block The Punch Coming At Your Face.---two Punches Same Hand.

Was That Clear, Or Should I Try And Post Pictures?

Hsk

[lianweizhi]

Some pictures would probably help but let me see if I got it.

I think we are on the same page here, if I were to do it I would do the poon kiu and block with my forearm on the way down and as I circle back I would stop the high punch with a cum jeurng at the opp.'s forearm - is that what you had in mind?

Some pictures would be handy =D

[DF]

Hi Frank,

I don't know how much help I can offer you since I am the type that see CLF is CLF. Yes, it is true that the Buck Sing Branch places a lot of emphasis on the Charp. I cannot comment on the other two branches since I don't study them.
To me, CLF is like what we today call the MMA folks. We have our "Seeds" and go on to make the kf our own. Look at the elders from the past, they have their own speciality.

GM Tarm Sam was known for his "lin wan charps" as well as his training brother
Wong Chai was also known for his charps and fast footworks. Tarm's other training brother Chung Tai was said to be excellent with his gwa, sow, bin and pau. Lau Yau special move was "Yung Charp tiger claw"
Tarm own students and grand students also have their own favorite techniques. Pun Lum from the Kong On line was known for his kicking skills and Tarm's son Tarm Wai was known for his no shadow kick and "Gum Kong Fu Jow gung".

As you can see, it is pretty hard in my eyes to see the diff and similarity among the three branches. The "seeds" are similar but at the end of the day, everyone take the kf to their own level.

DF

[Hephaestus]

I understand that one of the biggest differences between Bak Sing and Hung Sing is the curriculum -- being that Hung Sing's is comparatively very extensive, some branches including weapons as rare as the short crutch (similar to the tonfa) and possessing a traditional drunken form, while Bak Sing has a very compact curriculum, with only one weapon form for the staff -- is this correct?

[DF]

In kung fu, the system lie in the hand sets, all weapons are borrowed.

DF

[hskwarrior]

but couldn't the buk sing branch begin creating forms they don't have much the same way jeong yim and chan heung did?

many of the sets were created by them, then passed down to their students.

the head of each branch or school should be responsible for advancing their style or should i say evolve. i would like to see how the buk sing branch with all their knowledge on fighting would put together something they can say is all their own.

hsk

[DF]

Frank,

I think what you said hold true in all three branches of CLF. We all take what had been tested and refine them and continously testing and refineing.

DF

[hskwarrior]

and i believe thats where the differences lie. but the similarities are right there along with it.

one day i hope a choy lee fut summit can happen where all 3 branches can get together and compare, not compete, but compare and share.

it would also be great to see how different schools of the same branch compares to one another. I mean we all have different likes and dislike when it comes to usage.

we can all learn from each other and if we had a summit with only teachers of schools, then they can go back to their students and share what they learned.

someday.


hsk

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

One obvious thing I notice is the difference between Bak Sing and Fut San Hung Sing vs. Chan Family is the that Chan Family uses the "double puhn kiuh" also known as "daat jeung, gok ahn." Maybe I am wrong about Fut San Hung Sing not using this technique but its like everywhere in the LKH forms.

Another thing I notice is the more blatant extension and whipping motion in Bak Sing. To me this looks very ugly, slow and a good way to hyper extend your joints. I've always been taught that everything should move together. Some parts may move in front of other parts but they all move in concert. Also, not too extended or you set yourself up for a joint lock.


The original post by Frank McCarthy was a question on CLF differences between Branches, so people could exchange Informative, Constructive Ideas, Information and Knowledge…


RESPONSE

FU POW - Made this Personal!!!

Blatant Whipping Power generated thru the feet, legs, waist, hips shoulders and Extension to penetrate thru a target are just two of the obvious characteristics of Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut. There are many more!!!

Fu Pow...... to me YOU LOOK VERY F***ING UGLY!!! ( My Opinion!!!)

You don't know Buck Sing so why speak ill of it?

There is no way on earth that YOU will ever be able to joint lock a Buck Sing Fighter!!! You Will be hit and you would not know with what and how many times!!!

Buck Sing slow???? What type of FOOL r u!!!???

Everyone has heard and knows of Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoons Speed, Power and Aggressiveness and its Fierce reputation as a Fighting Style! Does the Buck Sing Gwoons, Grandmaster and Founder Tarm Sarm ring a bell !!!??? Remember how he plundered throughout China beating his opponents and gaining notoriety for the Buck Sing Gwoon and the Choy Lay Fut Style!!! How about the Five Black Panthers ( all of whom are Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut Masters and Fighters) who fought and won against other styles!!!??? Any Alarm Bells Yet??? The Buck Sing Style of Choy Lay Fut is well known and famous for its Speed, Power, and Aggressiveness!!!

Where have u been? What have u been Smoking? What planet are you on?

What r u trying to so foolishly and stupidly start here???!!!

Every style of Martial Arts is good and has its merits! It depends on the person behind it!!!

Some people are better fighters, others are better at forms, others just love the style and practice for good health and just for pure enjoyment. Some Masters are Great Fighters, others Great Teachers, others Great at Forms whilst others Great at Everything…… Why mock them? Why speak ill of Buck Sing?

The Choy Lay Fut Style - whether it be Chan/Hung Sing/Buck Sing is a formidable fighting Style! YOU should be proud and speak well of our style!

So again I ask: Why speak ill and criticise Buck Sing? Shouldn’t we all be respectful and live in unity as we all belong to the same big strong family?

If you are speaking ill of Buck Sing because YOU want to fight/cause trouble, let me know and I will MORE than happily oblige YOU and demonstrate on YOU its Speed, Beauty, Power, Extension and Destructiveness!

Buck Sing Gwoon Australia,
Nick

[TenTigers]

I think Nick is pointing out a truism that we can all relate to. We have the option of reading our posts before hitting the "post reply" button. Seeing that the topic of this discussion was to compare the different branches' differences and similarities, thus sharing our Gung-Fu-and not simply a pi$$ing match, perhaps some tactful rephrasing would be of benefit.
It is far less offensive to say,"I am not comfortable with this" or "I prefer this type of movement" or "wouldn't this occur if you had this type of extension.."
I am not talking of censoring, or putting words in your mouth, I am talking of having a dialogue that does not deteriorate to mud-slinging and challenges. After all, Frank did this and his efforts in the website to PROMOTE UNITY.
My thoughts are as such-as far as the extension of BSCLF movements, I don't think it would have continued if it placed the fighter in a vulnerable position. The challenge fights that BSCLF is known for has proven this, so it is not an issue.
It would be very informative if Nick,DF, and other BSCLF practitioners could go into some detail as to the hows and whys?

The other thing is, I have a request-and that is that Fu-Pow recognizes Nicks comments, but does not repond in a way that will only turn this thread into what has been going on on this forum as of late. I think when we get caught up in our Bull$hit, we create more, and we forget why we are here. Recognize it, and let it go, and let's just move on from there.-
-just a suggestion.
(feel free to tell me to eff myself :-)

[hskwarrior]

Buck Sing Gwoon,

let me apologize for the old but still young fu pow. it's not his fault, but like many others, if it's not Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut then these people over look it as something like second and third best.

Many have not seen the Hung Sing and Buk Sing lineages in action too much because we ARE fighters. In most cases there's no need for us to compete, because we don't train for competition......we train to fight. And, for both Hung Sing and Buk Sing (not leaving out the Chan Family) who are more OPENLY aggressive with its approaches to usage we are known fighters.

I say this because I have spent some time with the General discussing how we would use techniques and I have come to realize that ......"if you teacher likes to fight he will always approach using CLF from a fighters point of view whether it be forms or fighting.

Now, Fu Pow is among those who have never seen too much BSCLF and he compares it to his own knowledge. We have to remember, what he said was "HIS" opinion. Just as if i said that i don't like the way the LKH lineages does that long Kneel horse where their knees, shin ankle are all on the floor. Its not how "I" would use it, but I'm not saying they are wrong. Its just the way "THEY" do it.

Now Fu Pow offered his opion about what he doesn't like about BSCLF as if it matters to anyone. Or as if his words carry weight. (no disrespect intended fu pow) . We have to remember "Opinions" are like Arse Holes.....we all have one.

If Fu Pow doesn't like the long extended movements of BSCLF, then that's fine. He doesn't have to execute "his" CLF that way. But......the Buk Sing Kwoon knows why they train long like that. for example, training to strike long will greatly enhance you ability to strike shorter. See Fu Pow, even in our school (meaning lau buns CLF) we extended in forms and what not, and it's a great tool to keep someone at a distance as well. But's i highly doubt you will see Buk Sing or Hung Sing use real long and extended movements in real life combat. and if we do, it will always have a backup plan.

Actually, there's a lot in CLF i don't like, so i modify it to fit me. however, what works for me may not work for you.

anyways, what I'm trying to say is Buck Sing Gwoon......"Please give Fu Pow a pass" and Fu Pow, you should try and open your mind to the possibilities of the greatness of our style if you were to look outside the box and see how other teachers do things because you may like their way which might fit you better than what your current sifu is giving you. you won't have to leave your sifu, just adopt a way that is custom fit to you.

Fu Pow, not once have you seen Buk Sing doing any spar forms or Techniques demonstrations....very rarely if you do...............but you are only basing your opinion from hand forms. Please in the future look outside your CHan Heung Box, and see Choy Lee Fut for what it is............Neither one of us is the reincarnation of Chan Heung, Hung Sing, or Tam Sam.........focus on CLF today and see whats out there. be open, be like watah my friend. go with the flow.

as i've said Buck Sing Gwoon, I apologize for Fu Pow's near sighted comments.

Frank McCarthy

[hskwarrior]

By the way eddie,

thanks for mentioning the website which i get to segway into telling you guys to check out this site now:

http://www.3famclflinks.zoomshare.com

One of my classmates in another country is helping me fix it up.

but there are some video clips, history, articles, and such on this site.

please someone tell me what you think. ............hurry:mad:

peace.

[CLFNole]

For the record, in the Lee Koon Hung lau kwai ma the knee, shin and ankle do not touch the ground, it is more the side of the foot but I note your point.

I have seen Buk Sing played similar to how I play my sets, I have also seen it played with a kind of hung flavor. This can be said of all the branches. No matter what branch you are from people play sets differently. Our lineage extends a lot and so do other lineages. Some people within our lineage don't extend a lot and play it shorter. Who is right, who is wrong? There is no answer. We play sets how we like and how we feel comfortable, that is the beauty of all kung fu.

This has nothing to do with lineage or branches, all of CLF was designed for fighting and every branch has had its share of fighters. No branch is superior to another. Do some have more content than others yes, but does that matter, no. You can not like how someone plays a set but to say that is a reflection of the style or branch is irresponsible.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

CLFnole,

only in the lkf lineage have i seen this, and on most cases i've seen the whole inside of the leg from the knee down to the foot ON THE FLOOR.

if you don't don't do this that's fine, but i won't lie to what i've seen. maybe the people were and are doing it wrong, but its only in your branch clfnole no where else do i see anyone doing that.

oh, and having more content.....you don't mean forms do you? Have you learned a form yet CLFnole that you haven't seen those moves before?

more sets means exactly........nothing. come on, look at Buk Sing, they only possess 3 true CLF forms and look at their accomplishments.

who says you need more forms to make you a better fighter?

to tell you the truth all i need is sup ji kau da, then break that up and i can become a great fighter if thats all i had.

fix the problem don't be part of it.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

what would you say is pure CLF for example as opposed to what you are saying CLF by certain people to have HUNG flavor?

what are those characteristics? and how does that differ from what you and your branch does?


hsk

[yutyeesam]

HSK,
I don't think CLFNole meant specifically forms, perhaps he was referring to concepts (from which you could extract from forms). Like, the Elephant. Would you agree that if you devoured Sup Ji Kau Da for years and years, then learned and devoured the Elephant form in the same way, that your fighting skill would improve?

I'm guessing that the Elephant has concepts that aren't readily available in Sup Ji Kau Da, but I'm only guessing here.

By the way, speaking of this, I saw this description:
http://www.austinmartialartsfestival.org/index.php?section=seminars#Master_Shifu_Hwang
"Elephant Kungfu for health and self-defense
This is Southern Sholin style, side punching technique Kungfu."

Is that what Elephant is? Side punching technique Kung-Fu? Sounds like Chop Choy to me.

-123

[hskwarrior]

I see your point....

but if i only learned that one set, then i should be touching on every single aspect on that one form. you could probably make way more forms from just that one form, so with the CLF being as interchangeable as it is...........i can see someone already touching on something advanced without prior knowledge.

all you have to do is create.

but yes, something like the form you mentioned there were some different things.

see, i'm sure someone will say they already thought of it, but i came up with a technique not normally taught.....but it has to do with the fu jow that instantly turns into a panther fist to use a ping ang choy.

but i like the idea of exchanging ideas on usage between all 3 branches. lets keep that going.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

No, its not what you think it is.

there are so many elements to that set, but the link you posted ----that master does it NO justice.

but, i think its inside kung fu......but there is an old article where DFW wrote an article on that set, and i think Jason wong posed for some of the pictures.

i wish i had it now, i didn't care about elephant much back then because i had no idea.......but ****!!!!!!!

let me know if anyone has that issue.

hsk

[CLFNole]

Frank:

Read what I wrote:

"Do some have more content than others yes, but does that matter, no." Maybe I should have said forms but my point is that you don't need many forms.

"I have seen Buk Sing played similar to how I play my sets, I have also seen it played with a kind of hung flavor. This can be said of all the branches." Meaning I have some players from all branches that have a hung flavor. I won't call people out because it is not right, their style is their style.

I am not part of any problem just making some comments. My prior post is nothing but positive unless it is in some code I am not aware of.

As far as the lau kwai ma this is how we do it and I have played with both ways and it makes no difference the knee is in the same position. Don't know who you saw but sifu, Joe, myself and our si hing dai in HK don't put the knee or shin on the ground it is actually off it.

[Fu-Pow]

I think that our CLF has a little more of a "hung" flavor. This is reflected in the fact that Sifu Mak started out studying SPM and he taught for a while in Buk Sam Kong's school in Hawaii. They way that we do the Lok Gwai Mah is similar to the Hung Gar way and has more of a box shape rather than being extended like other CLF schools. Both ways have there advantages and disadvantages.

Personally, I don't like the super extended way that I see some do Choy Lay Fut. I think it is impractical. It may look good and increase your "tendon power" but I think it creates bad habits of that leave you vulnerable in fighting.

As I've learned it in Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji nothing in the body should be held straight. The human body is composed of spirals and curves. How can we move in straight line? Its not a natural way to move. If an opponent doesn't hurt your body eventually you will do damage to yourself this way over time.

Just some observations, not cutting on anyone imparticular.

FP

[hskwarrior]

I see where you are coming from fu pow, and maybe you should have stated your original comments as "according to how "I" feel"..........then maybe some won't get offended.

the one thing you seem not to realize is "why" the extend soooo much........thoe one thin never mentioned here is maybe he or they know their door is open and possibly waiting for someone to step in so he can react. I hope you see my point about open doors.

see, not everyone will leave out their punch for someone to grab their arm, but some of us know that as soon as you reach for that arm we close that door and spring on you.

i love to leave open doors, becase "YOU" (not really You persay fu pow) only see an open door. you don't stop to think that maybe he knows his door is open. you have to learn how to close the door when the time is right. once and a while i will purposely open a door to see who steps inside of it.

but i'm not your sifu, so it's okay to have your reasons for not liking the long extended CLF type, but that doesn't mean they are wrong for doing it. maybe they feel the same way about how you approach CLF. whay you have to do is keep your eyes open and absorb what you like and ignore what you don't.


hsk

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Personally, I don't like the super extended way that I see some do Choy Lay Fut. I think it is impractical. It may look good and increase your "tendon power" but I think it creates bad habits of that leave you vulnerable in fighting.

FP


FU POW,

Are You saying that Buck Sing is Impractical? Make it clear as to whom you are speaking about.

Have YOU practiced and Been Taught BSCLF from a BSCLF Master to decide this?

Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon has been time tested again and again and that is alive today and why it has emerged as a Practical Destructive Offensive Fighting Style!!!

Famous Masters such as the Founder Grandmaster Tarm Sarm, Grandmaster Kong Onn, Grandmaster Lun Chee, Grandmaster Kong Hing, Master Dave Lacey, Master Vince Lacey, Grandmaster Master Lai Hung, and countless other Masters and Students have Fought, Won And Proven its Practicality!!! ARE YOU MOCKING THESE FAMOUS MASTERS??? ARE YOU MOCKING THEIR STUDENTS??? You must be if you are saying that BSCLF is Impractical.

If you are talking ill about Buck Sing CLF please state it openly like a man. Who are you to say that Buck Sing is Impractical???? Have you fought us? Do you want to fight us?
How many actual real fights have you had? I have had MANY!

Remember every style is good whether it be Kung Fu, Karate, Taekwondo, Wrestling, Brazilian Juijitsu, Boxing etc….. it depends on the person behind it, and remember that there is always something to learn and someone better than you.

You are not humble or respectful and do not appreciate any fighting arts benefits!

By saying that BSCLF is Impractical you are speaking ill of the style, putting it down, putting the current Teachers, Practitioners, Students and the Great Men who developed the Style down. Well F**K YOU!!!

You are not a true Choy Lay Fut man as your negative posts are reflected throughout the world and you are putting down our actual Choy Lay Fut Style!!!!

What does your Sifu think of this? Does he approve that you mock the Buck Sing Style? That its IMPRACTICAL? Maybe you should ask him and I’m sure that he will say that ALL CLF whether it be Chan/Hung Sing/Buck Sing IS PRACTICAL!!!

I respect All the CLF Families, Teachers and Students.

This is against YOU! Retract YOUR statement if You are saying that Buck Sing is Impractical or Accept My Open Public Challenge to You!

Fu Pow, You want to fight!!!??? THEN LETS FIGHT!!!

I Will Fight You and Beat You under ANY Conditions, ANY Rules, ANY Time, Any Place!!!

I have spoken to my Sifu about your posts and I will have my Teacher- Master General Dave Lacey present when I fight YOU!

I will tape the event and post it on the net for the world to see how Quickly and Effortlessly I Beat You and Humiliate You!!!

I ALSO EXPECT THAT YOU MAKE YOUR TEACHER AWARE OF YOUR STATEMENTS AND INSULTS BY SAYING THAT YOU THINK THAT BUCK SING CHOY LAY FUT IS IMPRACTICAL AND BRING HIM TO WATCH THE FIGHT ALSO.

From what I know of Your Sifu Mak Kin Fai, I have only read and heard good things about him. Everyone speaks well of him. I’m sure that he too will be curious and surprised as to why YOU want to cause this trouble in the CLF Family.

Regardless, I Will Beat you, infront of him, SHOULD YOU ACCEPT MY PUBLIC CHALLENGE………

YOU obviously want to start a rivalry within our families! This wont happen as WE ARE UNITED!

I’m fighting YOU! Not your/our family styles lineage etc. Its JUST YOU!!!!!

For any other Buck Sing people out there in the USA this is time to act/reply to this IDIOT before I come to the USA from Australia and take care of business and beat Fu Pow!

That way, he will be beaten by the Buck Sing players from America and then AGAIN be beaten by Me Nick- BSG Australia- when I arrive from Australia!!!

Choy Lay Fut should be UNITED. We should not say that this CLF style is better than that CLF style etc. Accept eachother and be UNITED. We are CHOY LAY FUT. There will always be differences and there will always be similarities, you don’t need to mock them or say they’re impractical.

BUCK SING GWOON AUSTRALIA,
NICK

[k-no]

Sihing Nick,

This kind of ignorant commenting is never going to stop. It's all got to do with the prevalence of the internet and just how easy it is to say something without worrying about an immediate reaction. I have since found it is useless to bicker and argue with those that slander our style and Sifu and not have the balls to take up a personal challenge when called upon their comments.

I am just coming off knee surgery (that's what I get for playing with MMA idiots who don't know not to tackle you when you have your back turned and walking to your corner!) but if Fu Pow decides to take you up on your challenge I will to the best of my ability support you as you are a Buck Sing big brother. I have some people in Seattle as well that will be happy stand witness should Fu Pow choose to accept on his stomping grounds, though I suspect we should be on neutral territory.

Respectfully,

k

[freedomfighter]

Fu Pow,

What is it that you are looking for by discrediting other styles? especially since you are a Choy Lee Fut man also.........

You now not only have to worry about those aussies, who everyone knows are great fighters but also have to watch ur back against the other Buk Sing guys... Shane Lacey is a 4 star Grand Champion of Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut.

You dissing his style and saying that his style is Impractical puts him in the picture also........

Think about your words carefully... The whole of Choy Lay Fut is listening....

What other style and who else do you fing Impractical? People are knocking on your door.

[hskwarrior]

Sifu Nick,

I applaud you. when its time to put it down.........YOU PUT IT DOWN!!!!!!!

That is the way to let not only fu pow, but the world know the buk sing people are not to be focked with. I feel as representatives of the Choy Lee Fut system buk sing people rerpresent VERY WELL. As CLF people we should be PROUD of buk sing's contributions.

for far too long the buk sing and hung sing branches have stayed in the background. I think its time the world see's a United CLF and most of us are the current genertions future. if we don't do something with our legacies who will?

it's time that the current generation sifu's recognize we are all CLF. The good thing about CLF is that yes it can be super extended, it can fit right in the middle, and it can also be a very effective short handed system. The versatility of CLF means for me that I will always be a student.

that's why i got so much respect for Tam Sam and what he did. he wasn't satisified with what was and made it work for him.

Fu Pow, you're in a bad position now because for one everyone knows what you look like now and who your sifu is. All they have to do is contact your sifu. You are either going to publicly apologize for your comments, or you'll have to accept the challenge. your name is and honor is on the line. So what do you plan to do?


Nick, all he see's is CHAN family CLF, everything else is IMPRACTICAL. He is very opinionated, and i guess he has to man up to his claims huh?

Fu Pow.....do the right thing. The Buk Sing branch is not people you want on your tail. the grudge will be world wide and you would have to always look over your shoulder. Hell, i said it before.......I heard shane lacey on a radio show in SF beat down a Wing Chun student for saying "i bet my sifu can beat your father". Oh hell, that was the end of him. the guys sifu had to pour tea for Master Vince Lacey. I wonder if that guy dropped that student?????? i know shane lacey did.

I may have a problem with history Fu Pow, but i've never said anything bad against any other branch. in fact i'm always so curious to see what similarities and dis-similarities there are. i am always open to seeing and learning something new because regardless of what branch it is, its still CHOY LEE FUT.


Do the right thing.


hsk

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think you guys are reading to far in FP's post. Just because he expresses a 'preference' for how he likes to do techniques, I don't think he's putting anyone down.

It's a fact; Certain branches have thier own 'flavor' for doing things. FP is just expressing that he likes a certain type of flavor. Just because he prefers it, doesn't mean he thinks the others suck.

And I thought we were getting away from the stupid internet challenge matches? If you are really serious about flying to another state to challenge someone (or another continent) because of an internet post, I strongly suggest you save the plane fare and invest it in a good therapist...

What the hell is wrong with everyone? Grow up. If someone doesn't like the way you punch, whatever. Who cares? Does it take away or add to your training?

Take a cold shower, read a buddhist scripture, drink a '40' or pop a pill. Whatever it takes to drop the posturing and loose the ego.

Be well my clf brothers.

[Eddie]

Bucksing gwoon and the others,
Personally I think your attack on Fu Pow is a little desperate, and I get the feeling there is more to it than just what was stated here. Although, note it that I highly respect your branch and your Masters, so hope you don’t read anything negative in my post, and see it the way it was intended.

Im not sure where Fu Pow said anything bad about CLF, his comments on over extending was a personal thing for him, but unless he wrote in some weird code that Im not aware of, I doubt he actually tried to pizz anyone off with what he said. I also think he might have meant something other than what most people think he did. My experience with Fu Pow is that he is really a cool guy. Might come across a bit ‘ arrogant’ but many people on here does (wink at hskwarrior ;) ). Hey, I’ll kick both fu pow and hskwarrior’s azzez if they deny that they don’t both have a nice guy hidden beneath that rough ugly exteriors of theirs :cool: .

We as CLF players don’t need to prove to anyone that our style works, and we don’t have to fight amongst ourselves to prove anything. The point is, whether it be Buck Sing, Hung Sing, Some Sing or Any Sing (erm, hope no one take offence to that stupid little joke :rolleyes: ) we are all CLF, and we all know how effective our style and training methods are. Just on a parting note, in my country, the local Wushu Federation - from 8 people that were selected for the National San Shou team, 4 of them came from CLF. Few other CLF fighters were also on the short list for reserves too, but as it is, most CLF players in this country are poor and couldn’t afford to compete in Vietnam as there were no sponsors (the same happened with Maccau and other events too). Just say that CLF people must do something right.

However Bucksing gwoon, your loyalty to your Sifu and your style is very admirable, and it is great to know that we have ppl like that in our CLF camp. I would really like to meet you, and more specifically, I want to meet your Master. The Lacey family’s CLF legacy is impressive to say the least. Also think I would relate to Them (you guys) more than others.

Anyways, be gentle on me, I think I over did the bench pressing yesterday. My man boobs are really feeling it when I type. And maybe try read fu pows comments with a different mindset. I really don’t think he is trying to disrespect anyone.

[freedomfighter]

I think you guys are reading to far in FP's post. Just because he expresses a 'preference' for how he likes to do techniques, I don't think he's putting anyone down.

It's a fact; Certain branches have thier own 'flavor' for doing things. FP is just expressing that he likes a certain type of flavor. Just because he prefers it, doesn't mean he thinks the others suck.

And I thought we were getting away from the stupid internet challenge matches? If you are really serious about flying to another state to challenge someone (or another continent) because of an internet post, I strongly suggest you save the plane fare and invest it in a good therapist...

What the hell is wrong with everyone? Grow up. If someone doesn't like the way you punch, whatever. Who cares? Does it take away or add to your training?

Take a cold shower, read a buddhist scripture, drink a '40' or pop a pill. Whatever it takes to drop the posturing and loose the ego.

Be well my clf brothers.

Lama Pai Sifu how would you react if someone said Your Style is IMPRACTICAL?
What does this say about your ancestors? Your Teacher Chan Tai San and the years he invested in training etc.

Would you stand up for your Style? Teacher?

Fu Pow said that Buk Sing was Impractical and Ugly!

All CLF is Great and has lots to offer.

What would the Chan Clan or Hung Sing Clan say/do about Fu Pows comment if it was directed to them and he said their style was Impractical? Would Sifu Frank stand for this? What about Ng family CLF? What would they say if Fu Pow said their style was Impractical? I'm sure they would be breathing down his neck!

Seems to me the only people needing a therapist/Doctor are those that dont stick up for their style!

I know your Fu Pows friend and understand your concern for his well being.

He has to clear this mess up himself.

[Eddie]

you have valid concerns, but, I reread fu pows posts and he didnt say Buksing is impractical. I think you might be a little too over sensitive :cool: . besides, I see CLF, not different styles. Im sure fu pow does too. if he has to appologise for what he said, then allot of people onthis forum must appologise for things they have said over the years. if you dont like his posts, dont read it. its only one man's opinion.

and Im sure half the people on this forum who makes all sort of funny claims, wont even be able to stand their man in a real fight. heck, Im sure half this people on this site who makes all sort of funyn claims arent even real people :rolleyes:

if we can look beyond all these politics, there are actually people on this list who gives some valluable contributions

yes, I know, I cant spell :)

[TenTigers]

I think Fu-Pow should apologize, if for nothing else, to take the higher road, and end this debacle. I am sure by stating his opinion, in his exuberance, and ignorance he worded it poorly. Fu-Pow is dedicated CLF, and I am sure he meant no offense. I am sure if he felt people would take his opinion that he thought BSCLF was impracticle due to its extension, he certainly did NOT mean that to be an insult to BCG or its lineage. If you look at these posts, heck, half of us can't even spell, let alone form proper sentances. The other half due to cultural differences, don't understand what half the people are saying anyway.
This is snowballing out of control.
Nick is to be commended for his strong sense of honor and loyalty.
Fu-Pow in my opinion, for the betterment of unifying all the branches of CLF, should apologize. To be open, honest, and vulnerable is not a sign of weakness.
Quite the contrary, it takes tremendous courage.
That is "Yan Yee Do Duk" Compassion, Loyalty, the Dao, and Virtue.
That is being a "Sik-Jo Yan" a man who knows to do the right thing
That is Mo-Duk.

( not too shabby for a jewish white boy, huh?):)

[hskwarrior]

Eddie,

I have been keeping a tally on what you say about me, and i have come to a conclusion. You and your man-boobs and going to answer for such insolence.;) :D


Now, we all know how proud of their CLF the Buk Sing fighters are. For someone like fu pow who knows nothing about buk sing CLF and make a comment that what the buk sing branch does is impractical. he should have said that buk sing CLF doesn't work well for him and he prefers to use chan family CLF or whatever.

Personally I challenged a sifu to show me what he meant when he said that mantis hands were better for what we were doing and i wouldn't do the mantis hands. he kept telling me to stop my clf.....it won't work. i then said show me, and i proved that "my" clf hands are pretty good.

Fu Pow should say in the future that "HE" doesn't find things practical. but when you make a blanket statement like that you will have people come out of the woodwork to show fu pow how practical something really is.

example, in the middle of my post i made a reference about the LKH branch and their kneeling horse. I wasn't putting it down, from a fighters stand point its not something "I" would use. I never said it was wrong, it just won't work for me, and look at how people came to explain why they do what they do. they are proud of it.

just like long sweeps. I don't like them. i use a middle range sweep-a little closer to the person you are sweeping and stronger in my opinion. but i won't say that a long sweep is Impractical. but i wouldn't be against a person who loves them.

We are all different shapes and sizes. what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. that is why the versatility of CLF is so great. the vast amount of possibilities are impressive.

now as CLF people we should not be fighting and we should realize each branch has something useful to offer. we can learn from each other if you were to open your mind. don't be surprised one day when you are watching a student do CLF and then you notice that in that set were elements from the Chan, hung sing and buk sing branches. can you imagine that? no longer this branch or that branch. just CLF.

but i'm proud to be a HUNG SING MAN and all your gung fu is impractical to mine. I rule!!!:D


you and i have to talk about your man boobs eddie. can you take a picture. i like boobs. (Just kidding)


peace in the middle east, at least we can have peace in CLF and have a feast kill the beast and watch out for women making bread (yeast).

hsk

[hskwarrior]

ten tigers,

you're wise beyond your years. I was going to write about apologizing doesn't make you weak, it makes you a MAN who isn't afraid to admit he is wrong but you got to it first.

i totally agree with Ten Tigers.

A public apology for making an insensitive comment like that will only help to regain face. Realize this, by saying what he said doesn't give the Buk Sing Branch too much face for who they are.

do the right thing.

[CLFNole]

I think the problem here was that Fu Pow's statement was a bit too generalized. He saw someone perform buk sing very extended and didn't care for it. That is fine and one is entitled to their opinion. The statement about it being "impractical" is a bit on the irresponsible side because nothing is impractical when performing and unless you touch hands you can't say for sure either regarding usage.

That being said I don't think he called out the Buk Sing style and its great sifus, so while I understand the backlash I don't think the extent of it is really called for. We can all remember that Nick's sifu had a disagreement (to say the least) with Fu Pow and Joseph some years ago but isn't it time to bury the hachet or dan do. :D

A challenge match I think is a bit much in this case but an apology might be called for to smooth things out at least.

[hskwarrior]

but CLFnole,

that's your opinion. you have to step outside yourself, and see where sifu nick is coming from. totally excude yourself and take another look.

gotta go be right back.

hsk

[TenTigers]

it's funny, but i see this all over. You will especially see this on bullshido and things from their ilk. My thoughts are as such: All these systems have survived the test of time. If ANY of this sh!t was impractical, it wouldn't have remained.
Why the heck would anyone continue to teach a technique for combat if meant getting you killed? The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know, and just how much is out there. If I see someone dosomething that might seem to my eyes as impractical, (especially if it is in a form)the first thing I would ask is
"How is that used? Are you vulnerable to attack? Could you show me?"
I am much more likely to learn something in this manner. And I can always learn more. Every day, I am reminded that I am forever going to be a beginner.

[Eddie]

Eddie,

I have been keeping a tally on what you say about me, and i have come to a conclusion. You and your man-boobs and going to answer for such insolence.;) :D



uh huh :) then you should know I dont say bad things about people. and me saying im going to kick your azzz is always in jess :rolleyes: , but you know that already (just thought to clear it up - you American-Italian right? - I have seen the Soperanos dont want to mess with those guys- then there is the fact that you live in the gayest city in the world .... erm... did I say that out load? :cool: )

anyways, I support Fu Pow here, although I respect all the others. I see no need for him to appologise, and I see no need for this to go any futher. I also see no need for Master Lacey's name to be dragged into this argument either.

This topic is not worht fighting over. So many people has tried so hard to build unity amongst our style, it would be silly to start breaking walls again. Call each other names, spam each other's email boxes, but thats as far as that.

I too respect Buck Sing Gwoon for his loyalty and honor. Then again, he is a CLF man ;) .

I say, do as the San Fransiscoians... kiss and make up :D


Frank wants to see my man boobs?? So those stories about SF must be true then :p

now where is that Gloria Gaynor cd of mine ........

[hskwarrior]

man boobs. heh heh, he said man boobs.:D :D :D

Much love (not that way you ****) to ya not for ya. that would be gay.

eddie, you are always on good terms with me unless i show up on your doorstep. then when i show up, i want to see either the look of surprise or fear (fear like oh my god what is he doing here:p ).


watch yourself eddie. be good. and prosper.

hsk:p

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Freedomfighter writes:


Lama Pai Sifu how would you react if someone said Your Style is IMPRACTICAL?
What does this say about your ancestors? Your Teacher Chan Tai San and the years he invested in training etc.

Would you stand up for your Style? Teacher?

Fu Pow said that Buk Sing was Impractical and Ugly!

All CLF is Great and has lots to offer.

What would the Chan Clan or Hung Sing Clan say/do about Fu Pows comment if it was directed to them and he said their style was Impractical? Would Sifu Frank stand for this? What about Ng family CLF? What would they say if Fu Pow said their style was Impractical? I'm sure they would be breathing down his neck!

Seems to me the only people needing a therapist/Doctor are those that dont stick up for their style!

I know your Fu Pows friend and understand your concern for his well being.

He has to clear this mess up himself.


What would I do? Uh..mmm...probably just go on with my life and continue to do whatever I was doing before I read someone's opinion. But that's just me.

Personally, this sh1t is no different from the "my father can kick your father's ass" or "your mother is a *****..what are you going to do about it?" arguements that took place when we were kids (I use 'when we were' as a lose term).

Didn't you guys ever hear of 'sticks and stones...?'

Who cares what anyone else thinks? If someone calls your mother a *****....do you care? Is she a *****? Either way, you can never stop everyone from talking smack. If you guys were smart, you'd realize the best way to stop smack talking (not saying that is what FP is doing) is to NOT REACT to it.

FP is stating an opinion. It's his to state. GET OFF HIS BACK! Last time I checked, this was a FREE country. Everyone is entitiled to an opinion.

Here's mine. If any of you guys were as tough as you pretend, you'd be on a plane already, preparing to deliver an ass-whoping. Instead, you have no intentions of fighting anyone; you'd rather hide behind a keyboard. Plus, you are acting like a bunch of babies with your stupid challenges and your pseudo-honor. Like you are the one repsponsible to defend your styles honor. Gimme a break. Grow up and contribute...don't condemn.

That's my opinion. If you don't like it, go to hell! I could care less. I'm only putting it here, so that maybe, one of you might read it and start to think a bit....

[hskwarrior]

Forgive me mike P,

but when you state your opinion without the regard of others, then the only recourse is to accept the outcome. as you've said, FP has the right to express his opinions and the same goes for sifu Nick, or anyone who has just heard that someone feels your gung fu or what the gung fu your founder past down was impractical.

if someone said to you that Chan Tai San's gung fu was garbage i think you would be on the offensive as well..


regardless, how was your trip to china? did you go? no word yet?


hsk

[k-no]

LPS,

I am Buddhist/Hinduist so I can understand your point of view, and have since tried to not even look at the forums so I can prevent myself from losing it because of comments by the REAL KEYBOARD WARRIORS here who profess knowledge beyond all of our years, but refuse to identify themselves or their lineage (I think I'm being fairly obvious here).

The fact of the matter is this; if I stated some "opinions" as such, and if I got called out by a representative of said style, I would have no one to blame but myself. I may think that a certain style is impractical, and I may even discuss the merits (or lack thereof) to colleagues and fellow martial artists in person. But if I made such comments on a public board for the whole world to see, and I get challenged because of it, I think then it would be either my responsibility to retract my statement and declare ignorance, OR accept the challenge.

Let's put it this way...I think some styles are highly impractical. But for someone in recovery looking to fight full contact again, working AND going for a BA full time.... I don't really feel like getting challenged anytime in the near future, so maybe I keep my comments to myself or within my circle.

For you to get all worked up over it....well, ok never mind. I have been in the same boat before. I just really suggest that you don't get involved and let these boys sort it out themselves. Unless you really, really want to. (tongue in cheek).
Like someone mentioned earlier, Fu Pow got himself into this, I think he's more than capable of speaking for himself.

I also GUARANTEE that Sihing Nick of the Buck Sing Gwoon Australia is a highly respected member of our family, and he is neither a pretender nor is he a keyboard warrior. I am sort of relieved for the moment that he IS in Australia, because I do believe if he was here that he would already be booking the flight and making phone calls.

You said it yourself. It's a free country. Someone posted without thinking of repercussions, someone got called out. Both fall under the freedom of speech banner. Isn't America great?

k

[hskwarrior]

k-no, how's the knee?

we need to go to goldilocks again for lunch or something. last time was too short.


be careful in your recovery but don't baby yourself. i know you know.

see ya ma brotha.



hsk

[hskwarrior]

fu pow,

you can't ignore this. what are you going to do?

the best way is to admit you had a slip of the tongue and apologize for your comments and things will smooth over. a real man will admit when he's wrong and in this instance you are completely wrong. you could have structured your opinion in the form of a question to whether other people felt buk sing stlye is impractical or not.

by stating your opinion the way you did, you have insinuated that your gung fu "IS" practical over Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut, who is not as good in your eyes.

by remaining silent fu pow about this its not going to go away. if you openly apologize or retract your comments this can and will go away. trust me, you don't want to make enemies ouft of the BSCLF group. stop being so stubborn fu pow, and admit an error of ignorance, passing gas of the brain mass if your will.

don't just hope this goes away. im sorry fu pow that gung fu is this way. deal man.


hsk

[T. Cunningham]

CLF can be played long or short. In my opinion, it is played long in the beginning levels to develop the root and the power; to train the body. At advanced levels, the techniques can be played at a much shorter range. The assumption is that the player has learned to generate close to if not the same amount of power in smaller movments that was produced at the primary level with the larger movements. This takes a different level of connection. The practicality of the long or short technique depends on the usage and one should not be considered inferior to the other.

As to the challenge, shouldn't we embrace these as an opportunity to show the efficacy of the style and training? Fu-Pow might not have intended the comment to be taken the way it was. On the other hand, maybe he meant it exactly as it was written. In either case, we should always be ready to back our words with action. If not, we damage our character, discredit our styles, and dishonor our sifus, martial ancestors, and our brothers and sisters. We should remember our lessons in mo duk.

I'm confident Fu-Pow will do the right thing.

[k-no]

T. Cunningham, my sentiments exactly. I agree with Frank's assesment as well. It takes a man to back his words up, but it also takes a man to admit he's wrong. If we continue to condone such talk and expect no reaction, then we become the paper tigers that the MMA world has come to expect us to be.

Frank,

Brother, it's going to be a at least 5 more months till I can even begin light KF training, but my "Stone Cold Steve Austin" bionic leg is off and I am walking on both legs normally. I'm moving into a rented house further in South City soon. We'll have to wait for backyard training, but call me sometime, we can at least BS and pop open a cold one. Goldilock's is all good too, bring your appetite with you next time.

Sifu's all mad at me, he thinks because I hadn't been with him, I haven't been training. I told him "How the hell do you think my knee came apart in the first place?" :D

k

[freedomfighter]

T.Cunningham,Eddie, Ten Tigers, K-No, HSK Warrior all have valid points here.......

An apology or at least a clear explanation from FuPow is probably due here.... words can get misconstrued....

Remember this is not about or against eachothers family/style of Choy Lee Fut. Its about Fu Pow saying that Buk Sing is slow and Impractical.

Just wondering, what is DF's stand on this? Has he read Fu Pow's posts? Is he not a Buk Sing practitioner and brother of Nick's? Has he anything to say/add or back Nick up?

[hskwarrior]

sifu DF may be holding his tongue and temper on this. As a BSCLF man i'm sure he has a stand on it. he just may not be the type to express it openly.

In regards to the BSCLF ordeal here, sifu nick did what was right and EXPECTED of him. Many sifu i know agree with how he handled this. it was old school and done correctly without dragging teachers and schools or styles into it. it became personal in direct fire of fu pow's comments.

now if the table were turned and sifu nick made the same ignorant comment about the chan family, i would expect NO LESS than what sifu nick did from the members of the Chan Family. I would back them up if Sifu nick said that. however, it's greatly appearant that General Lacey trained sifu nick very well. not only in gung fu but about ethics and chinese culture.

I do hope Fu Pow mans up and admits to making a mistake. I would hate for something to happen over pride.

Fu Pow, this is the third try from me to get you to apologize. from this point on its on your shoulders. I even asked for sifu nick to give you a pass dude.

be a man about it.

hsk

k-no........we can sit and train hands while you recover. Trust me. you need to keep them hand weapons on point. we have to hook up more. are you movingto westborough or grand ave side?



hsk

[Ou Ji]

Wow, a whole lot of crap over pretty much nothing. I can't believe one little comment, one sentence, turned into a statement that Bak Sing CLF is useless and and all the masters can't fight and blah blah blah.

Since when have MA'ists become so PC? Must be the hippies infiltrating the gwoons.

Break out that jow and toughen your skin, external AND internal.

Do you also give people crap for looking at you when in public?

Don't worry, you'll grow up soon and those raging hormones will subside.

I got your back Fu Pow. Speak your mind without being insulting and if peeps want to go off in wild speculation about it that's their problem. Apoligize if you feel it's right but unless I missed something I really don't see the big insult.

Of course now we all know how to push his button. :p
The trolls are coming, the trolls are coming!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

:confused: :mad: :( :eek:

Oh My Fargin' God! This is a Kung-Fu Forum! Will you guys lighten up and grow up! Issueing challenges and demanding apologies and retractions....unbelievable.

In the words of Jim Kelly:
"Man,..you come right out of a comic book!"

Will you guys get a grip? You are all literally acting like a bunch of babies. People can state their opinions...since when are they considered an attack on you or your style?

This is just so ridiculous. I don't even want to bother TRYING to contribute anything valuable to this forum at this point. It's just a waste...

And if any of you don't like MY opinion, don't bother trying to oppose it...guess what? I don't give 2 sh1ts what you think anyway. In my eyes, you are all just a bunch of petty retards....at least the one's who are actively pursuing this attack.

Frank, you are a nice guy...we've spoke on the phone several times. This kind of crap is below you as well. Frankly..for most of you, I'm a bit dissapointed.

Dudes...just train yourselves, your students and lighten up. Have some fun and get rid of all your grade-school anger. Stop with the petty baby sh1t.

OK. I'm done. If I can't affect anyone here...so be it.

[Ou Ji]

Another thing I notice is the more blatant extension and whipping motion in Bak Sing. To me this looks very ugly, slow and a good way to hyper extend your joints. I've always been taught that everything should move together. Some parts may move in front of other parts but they all move in concert. Also, not too extended or you set yourself up for a joint lock.

And:


They way that we do the Lok Gwai Mah is similar to the Hung Gar way and has more of a box shape rather than being extended like other CLF schools. Both ways have there advantages and disadvantages.

Personally, I don't like the super extended way that I see some do Choy Lay Fut. I think it is impractical. It may look good and increase your "tendon power" but I think it creates bad habits of that leave you vulnerable in fighting.

Just some observations, not cutting on anyone imparticular.

FP

Just to get a better perspective on this I went back and looked and quoted Fu Pow and I believe this is what kicked off the crap.

The first one: He has seen Bak Sing players perform in a way he doesn't like and explained why. Only Fu Pow knows who he's referencing so maybe it's just a poor student or a lazy school. Who knows. It's his personal opinion that we're all allowed to have. If he's wrong correct him and explain why or maybe arrange for him to get a better look at Bak Sing.

Since he studies CLF I'd say he qualified to make an judgement on the CLF that he's seen. It's not like it's a Mantis guy talking crap about CLF.

The second one: He doesn't even mention any particular branch, school or teacher. Just a general observation. I get the impression there's something else involved here and not just these comments. Are you guys past enemies or something?

I don't see anything from Fu Pow that isn't in line with the purpose of this forum and this thread in particular. Don't ask for opinions if all you want to hear are sweet lies.

[k-no]

OK, I'm gonna keep it real here.

I don't think the comments were a big deal.

I am also not surprised if someone who made such a comment gets called out, including myself. I may be ****ed off if it was me, but not surprised.

I don't want to dig up old bones, HOWEVER, I don't think it would have been that big of a deal if there wasn't some HISTORY with Fu Pow jabbing at our family, making snide remarks and such, openly telling people on the internet NOT to check out my Sifu's school, etc. I don't think anyone was really chomping at the bit to start this challenge, but I think it was a straw, no matter how insignificant, that somehow finally BROKE SOMETHING. This is my personal observation. I don't think it was really as simple as it looks on this single thread. I'm sure many of you remember (no matter how we'd like to forget...myself included, since I almost popped a gasket and really did some things I'd have regretted a few years ago because of this)

I'm really sorry it came to this, this isn't how I wanted it to go down, but there were some things said that I will NEVER forget. Let's just say my Sifu was severely disrespected, and we as a group have NEVER disparaged Mak Sifu or any other CLF people or otherwise during the original debacle. So now, I think comments that seem innocent enough, when bringing in the name of BSCLF will always get magnified and analyzed, because the things that were said were never really put to rest or taken back....as the world turns. We'll see how it goes...

Frank, PM me, call me or I'll call you. I'll be in Cupertino at the Japanese Festival at the Bushido Designs t-shirt booth on Sunday.(though I'm not sure if you drive that far, you and your lady may enjoy it!) I'm down to fit some training in my schedule. We'll talk off the forum, we have some things to discuss. Get at me.

[DF]

HOPEFULLY this is my one and only post on this matter;

I chose to stay away posting on this because I already see two of my Sihings are already on the board and handleing this matter. Myself and the NY BuckSing Gwoon are busy training and awaiting for instruction from Sifu and ready to move when the phone call comes. I am Buck Sing and we will stand behind my Sifu and my Sihings.

Please do not ask me for my personal opinion or position on this because I am so low in the over all food chain and since this matter is already being handle by people above me. Second, those who know me will know that I have zero interest in any public debate. If there is a problem, I prefer a face to face resolution.

In the world of Kung Fu (mo lum), family is very important. We are tied together and we will stick together. How far extend of this family is up to those involve and those in the position to make decision. You can choose to be a family member with just your immediate peers or extend your family to those that share the same root. No matter which decision or direction you decided on, the goods that come with it you must also take the responsibilties as well.

Dixon Fung

[Ou Ji]

As for Oui Ji, I don’t care for your comments or thoughts at all! You are not a CLF player so why comment/get involved? This is between Me and Fu pow! Mantis Style has many branches…. Are any less better than the others or is it the players that make the difference? I’m sure that All Mantis Fists and All Fighting Arts performed correctly by the rite people are useful and strong.
***Also I don’t give a flying F**K whose back you’ve got!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***
Is that supposed to mean something to me??? Well F**K You!

No thanks, I'm trying to quit.
Wow, way to be dignified and represent your school. :-)

Having Fu Pows back isn't supposed to mean anything to you. It's supposed to mean something to Fu Pow. I believe a MA man should have the nuts to speak his mind.

If this is personal between you and Fu Pow why is it splashed all over a public forum?

The way you guys are flipping out makes it look like Fu Pow is either on to something or you guys are lacking confidence in your training.

I still stand by my position that Fu Pow was stating his personal opinion and it should be taken as such. If he doesn't like it does that mean it's true? Is Fu Pow such a highly regarded source that his opinion carries that much weight?

Get a grip and work on that insecurity problem.

I don't know you either and I'm sure your're a good guy, good teacher and know your stuff but I still support Fu Pows right to state his opinion on a public forum. The purpose of his thread is to discuss the differences between CLF branches and that's what he did. If he's wrong offer a counterpoint and discuss it instead of puffing up your chest and popping a head gasket.

BTW, Mantis has had it's share of branch rivalry but they're all working to get along. And I have trained some CLF from 2 branches. I haven't had a chance to learn any BSCLF yet or see much of it.


For those condemning me for respecting my style and standing up for it, then you can go to Hell!!!

And who might that be? You guys read way too much into things. Maybe offset your CLF with a little Taiji or something.

You know, CMA gets bashed all the time for being flashy and impractical. Think we should chase down everyone that makes a comment like that and kick the crap out of them?

[Ou Ji]

You know, some people claim a 9mm is impractical because it doesn't have enough stopping power but you don't see Glock issuing challenges and telling them to shut up.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Nick, very well said. I respect your opinion, as I see you respect mine. I don't agree with the severity of your response, regarding FP's posts, but hey...like you said, everyone is different.

I said my peace. I just think that these things go too far. Me...personally....I just don't get too affected by what others say about things. There will always be people talking about you...whether it's to your face or behind your back. I don't let it get to me, it's easy to get caught up in all this junk. I like to just move forward and align myself with people who are on the same page.


Best of luck, Nick, I'm sure when we meet, we'll become instant friends.

Cheers.

[hskwarrior]

sifu nick,

regardless of what others may feel about your loyalty and fire for the Buk Sing system and all the great gung fu Tam Sam developed to honor the Choy Lee Fut style, all that matters is that you represented your lineage extremely well.

your sifu (General Lacey....i miss having lunch with that guy) should be proud of you for standing up for your beliefs.

Trust me, elders from the Hung Sing branch feel you handled this the correct way. even if Fu Pow doesn't act like a man and rectify this situation, maybe he will know in the future not to open his mouth about the effectiveness of another branch's (of the same style)....opinion or not.

Yes, i would react the very same way if someone was to say Lau Bun's CLF was impracticle regardless of who it is.

In comparison to Chan Family Choy Lee Fut to Buk Sing CLF-----other than some nothern influence------i don't see too much difference between the two....other than the succession of moves in a set, the way their executed, or how they are applied.

Typically, the Hung Sing and Buk Sing Kwoon attracts the hard core fighters....or even the gangster types who are quick to want to display their skills and love for their style. It is these people who know how to fight. Trust me, if the buk sing system was too slow or impracticle these fighters would move on to a real teacher and style that works practically.

the problem i see is that people are judging the buk sing system off of forms. I will be the first to say right now, that nowhere on the net do you see the buk sing people showing how to use their gung fu. all you do is see forms. If you think you can judge to practicality or impracticality of the system based off of hand forms then you need to go back to your sifu and get back your money. your sifu's are not teaching you right.

the only way anyone can honestly say if something is or was impracticle is by learning it, trying it out and understanding it first hand. If you have not learned the gung fu from one of the other branches then YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE ANOTHER BRANCHES EFFECTIVENESS.

It would have turned out this way if FU POW would have just structured his comments like this....."Personally I feel BSCLF is too slow, or impracticle for thiese reasons".......but FU POW did not. he came out and said as if he is an authority or even some high ranking CLF man that he felt the WHOLE system of BSCLF was not worth learning at all. Basically, that comment could affect the BSCLF in the future because some people may hold weight in Fu Pow's comments and not want to learn it because of what he said.

So when he said that comment the way he did....filled with his disregard of others and all his arrogance......"WHAT DO YOU THINK PEOPLE FROM THAT SYSTEM WILL DO?" I have a strong feeling that Master Mak doesn't teach his students to think like fu pow.

Fu Pow, I think that was weak that you could speak against but you can't step up and speak for yourself in your own honor. It shows your character dude. Since you made those comments you haven't even stepped up to defend yourself. You could have come back and clarified what you meant. To those who were offended, your non responce is only fueling the fire. its irresponsible, and shows weakness to the highest degree. you could have said "no offense intended" but you say nothing.

to everyone else who comments against the way Sifu Nick stood up for the honor of his sifu, the style and Tam Sam.........what would EXPECT him to do? not say anything? to let someone from another branch insult training he's received when the instigator KNOWS NOTHING about what he's talking about.

It seems that many people here would take the "Mature" or "sophisticated" way of dealing what Fu Pow said. This is full of BS. Hung Sing and Buk Sing are very passionate when it comes to their gung fu. For everyone that turns their cheek the other way, believe me there are just as many CLF people who would do just as sifu nick did.

Well let me put it this way.......if i said to Fu Pow that he should quit learning CLF because due to his size and slowness, CLF is impracticle, what do you think others will have to say? people will jump on the band wagon and rip me a new one for thinking the way i do. Some of you here act as if your words have weight but, if you are not a member ( and this goes for me as well) you are not qualified to comment on another branches gung fu. how can you? you don't know what they do, why they do, or even how they do what they do.

so what gives you the right to offer such a negative and possibly destructive OPINION on something you are not an authority on? Unless you meet face to face, hand to hand combat and such, there is NO EFFIN WAY you or anyone else has the right to offer your opinion the way Fu Pow did without receiving reprecussions. you are stupid and arrogant to think NO ONE would respond to YOU that way for stating YOUR opinons. HOW DARE THEY, right?:rolleyes:

See, this is the SECOND time fu pow has had run-ins with the Buk Sing branch. I seem to remember him telling a certain someone here that he can expect a big buffed over 6 foot hardcore fighter showing up on his doorstep. REMEMBER????


hsk

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I’ve waited 6 days so here’s my response…..

Just ask Sifu McCarthy what he would do!




Oh No! Don't do that! I think that if Frank had his way...we would all have at least on 'cap in our ass' by now! I know I would have!

Frank, if shooting people was legal....how many of us would you have shot by now?! LOL!

Frank is the kind of guy who would shoot you...then send flowers to your hospital bed and hang out with you until you got better. He's a 'shoot first, make friends with you later" kind of guy.

Make no mistake about this post. I like Frank McCarthy and we've spoke at great length about our style on the phone. He is a good guy. He may come off a little guarded at first, but once you get past his hard candy shell...he's all gooey on the inside!

[Eddie]

He may come off a little guarded at first, but once you get past his hard candy shell...he's all gooey on the inside!

oh no! now you made me worry about new yorkers too. First it was the san franciscoians, now the new yorkers too?! :eek:

shoot first and make friends later? I think my wife must be related to frank then :cool: (btw Frank, I was born in a city called Pretoria, the serial killer capital of SA ;) not that it means much, just thought you might want to know)

[hskwarrior]

Mike,

you'd be out for the count 3 to the head gone just like that.;)

Eddie, would get 2 to the foot.

Fu pow would get it in the arm.

CLF nole would get one to the butt cheeks.



anyone else want some? gott lotta mo, a whole lotta mo'. :D

and mike, i just read the gooey part, and you get two more to the head.


and to be real, I would shoot a MF before fighting him. but thats the world i grew up in.

ahhhh,,,,, i'm all misty eyed and SH!T!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ALL GET A PASS. (THIS TIME:D


NOW HIT THE DECK!!!!!!!! ITS A DRIVE BY.

[CLFNole]

Frank, you freakin me out...butt checks :eek:

Me I won't do any shooting I'll have some of my goomba's come give ya a little visit. Say hello to Luca Brasi.

[Infrazael]

Guys let's just forget all of this ****e.

Harboring anger/hatred can only lead to bad health and a gloomy, depressing day.

No need to get worked over such a small thing.

[SETANSI]

You know, some people claim a 9mm is impractical because it doesn't have enough stopping power but you don't see Glock issuing challenges and telling them to shut up.

since were on the subject of shooting fools.

Hey O gee the 9mm is impractical and underpowered. thats why glock sells so many .40's 10mm and 45acp

also buc sing only use's 45acp cause it puts a bigger hole in wing tzun *******s.

Hey fool pow i here buck sing gwoon is gunning for you. don't be scared your much bigger than him. (though not big enough for an apologie)
keep your head down i dont think he can hit you from OZ.

Oh i forgot I think Buck Sing Gwoon is suposed to come to the states soon.:eek:

[chasincharpchui]

I guess I think that when you perform in public you should perform as though you were actually using the form in a combat situation, ie with speed and power.



funny u should say that, its been 4 years since uve critisized DFW performances yet 4 years on u still suck!

do u fight the way u do ur form?


123:

I agree totally with Fu-Pow, CLF is fast, powerful and explosive. The lineage he and I come from this is very important, the Lee Koon Hung style is fast while remaining loose. I have seen other lineage's that do their CLF slower and to me it looks like hung gar somewhat. Not that there is anything wrong with hung gar.

Peace.

How dare you even admit ur from LKH lineage, please dont insult them anymore. Learning ur forms from LKH videos does not make u LKH lineage Fu-Pow!


123:

Lee Koon Hung always taught something like a burst of speed then a pause and burst then a pause. When one pauses is up to the performer and based on their own likes and dislikes. Many pause a bit on chop choys others sow choys.



no one sees the burst of speed then a pause ur talking bout in fu-pow's performance

those of u who havent seen it
feel free : http://media.putfile.com/Ba-Gua-Saam87


Tae kwon do tournaments don't count.

Put up big boy or don't go critiquing others forms. At least I have balls enough to put my stuff out there.

this is coming from someone whoes students can onli win trophies in Shorinryu Championships.

ming si chert goh toh

and fu-pow u should know wat that means coz ur cantonese is so good, or issit ur mandarin, fk u cant even distinguish the two dialects so stop using chinese
terms!



For some reason it seems like you are assuming that I haven't sparred very much. I don't know where you getting that from? I've been practicing CLF and Chen Taiji for 10 years, so I've had my fair share of contact in both Tui Sau and San Sau.



where do we get that from? from ur form u pedophile
ive been to ur website and seen the pic with u and d 3 lil kids, u monster!



If someone wants to fight me in a public, competitive setting then let's do it.

wasnt it an open challenge from BUCK SING GWOON? i mean he did say that ur sifu and his sifu were to b present and anyone else who would like to see u get ur ass dropped LIVE

What's really gonna be funny is when he gets deported back to Australia in hand cuffs. I'll be sure to get that on tape for all to see.

FP
so why get the police involved?

considering you fight like the way you do your forms, u'd have to call the police wont yah?


so Fu-Pow have u apologized yet? or have u bought more videos maybe even shane laceys buck sing choy lay fut dvd with the deadly snake form?
either way u dont stand a chance in the OPEN CHALLENGE between buck sing gwoon and urself

p.s ur Tui Sau(wat a joke, tui sau? haha mentioning dis sh!t in a clf related thread haha) and San Sau experience wont help yah coz theres no points involved and NO ONE to stop BUCK SING GWOON from bashing ur head in u fkn pedophile!!