What is the true definition of traditional martial arts.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I often hear people critisize traditional martial arts for being unrealistic or that they do not train hard enough. This often comes from the "MMA" group who believe that we as CMA's prace around in pajamas and do flashy forms all day with no contact or sparring whatsoever. This may be the case in many so called traditional chinese arts, but how is this traditional. At what point in the history of CMA did forms overcome sparring and other hard training methods. I understand this is a dead horse that has been beat to death, but traditional chinese boxing is not about little to no physical training, regardless of being an internal or external style. I believe in the concept of forms being set patterns that improve footwork, motor skills, application and set ups, and are an essential part of the martial arts training regiment. I also belive that applying what you have learned in an alive manner is essential to a martial artist's growth as well. I believe that some CMA schools as well as any other martial arts school can be critisized for their training methods, but what has aggravated me lately is the MMA crowd and their arrogance and ignorance toward traditional martial arts. A truly traditional martial arts trains in many of the same manners that MMA fighters train, excellent physical condtioning, hard contact sparring, throws and groundwork,
and most important, an open mind to learn new things and apply what works to your own fighting game. This is not me harping on MMA guys, I cross train myself and most people I know in MMA came from a traditional martial arts background. This is directed mostly toward the ignorant poser group who lash on an art they have never studied and no nothing about. The point of my rant is don't knock what
you don't know, there is always something out there to learn and improve yourself with. Thoughts and comments would be appreciated, especially on opinions of what you believe true TCMA is.

"Joey, you ever been in a Turkish Prison Camp?"

[MasterKiller]

Here is the knowledge you seek:



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556435576/qid=1144254180/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-2429786-6360826?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[David Jamieson]

tra·di·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-dshn)
n.
The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.

A body of unwritten religious precepts.

A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

Law. Transfer of property to another.


Now, apply that to the term martial arts and that is your "true" definition. Pretty matter of fact and certainly no big cryptic mystery as much as some would blur that line.

[Anthony]

There is no "true" definition. I think that what is traditional or commercial boils down to one's own personal perception of what those things mean. Eample: If a school uses contracts and sales pitches it's commercial, if it has a Buddhist altar or burns incense, it's traditional (as an example of how someone might see it). Or, you wear sweats, it's modern, you wear Chinese clothing, it's traditional,.....you get it?

With the "history" of TCMA being so poorly recorded (if at all) and embellished with legend and fantasy, it's not a science as to what the past really was. So again, it comes down to how you feel about it and what you like.

"I often hear people critisize traditional martial arts for being unrealistic or that they do not train hard enough. "

I think this comes from the fact that not everything in TCMA is directly for fighting. There's an entertainment/artistic aspect to some forms and movements. I think that even some instructors don't get this and incorrectly try to teach movements that are for aesthetic value as self-defense movements. So obviously, outsiders will see these so called self-defense movements as impractical and many movements are.

"but what has aggravated me lately is the MMA crowd and their arrogance and ignorance toward traditional martial arts."

There is as much ignorance and disagreement within the TCMA crowd as from the outside so I don't really blame the MMA crowd for their views. You have the choice to study what you like so I wouldn't go getting aggrivated too much. Personally I don't obsess over traditional vs. modern. If you like it, do it.

[David Jamieson]

different matrixes of compartmentralization do not remove the definition of something in the strictest sense.

it is what it is regardless of how you dress it up and serve it out.

you can call one thing something else in other words, but that changes nothing really.

[lkfmdc]

OK, getting into my flame resistant suit :D

What most people think of as "traditional" is what has been "sold" to westerners over the past 35 years or so....

In the places where Kung Fu originated and where most westerners got it from, forces suppressed and made politically correct CMA

Taiwan needed to win over foreign support, have it's economic modernization and was controlled basicly as a police state for many years

HOng Kong was under British rule, and the British wanted to stop the mayhem in the street

Communist mainland is obvious

There are also plenty of "instructors" who simply wanted to make it a business, cater to an ignorant public, play to the lowest common denominator and make plenty of cash...

[David Jamieson]

If I teach something to you using a certain method and you learn it well whole and in it's parts and then transmit that method to someone else and on down the line adhering to the original method.

That is tradition, plain and simple, whether you charge a fee or make someone wear a gi, or have them put on gloves or not etc etc.

the external look and feel of something is not all that makes it traditional it is the consistency in how it is passed from one to the next and how that method is adhered to that makes it traditional.

[tug]

different matrixes of compartmentralization do not remove the definition of something in the strictest sense.

it is what it is regardless of how you dress it up and serve it out.

you can call one thing something else in other words, but that changes nothing really.

...which is pretty much the point I wanted to make. Everyone has their own opinion of how the world should spin, regardless if you are master, teacher or student.

That being said raises a question, however - aren't we too far removed to really understand the true tradition of TMA? By that I mean, it has been literally thousands of years since the arts in general were conceived, and for different reasons. There are many similarities, but I just can't grasp the mindset, the way of thinking that was prominent enough to warrant creating such a thing. Aren't we just eating what we're being fed? And who can know if it is actually truly traditional, aside from what we're told?

Not wearing my flame-proof suit, so please don't shoot me, just trying to gain more insight on this topic, as it is one close to my way of thinking.

[David Jamieson]

There are virtually no intact systems from 1000 years ago.

Everything the coolective martial arts community does now is in the continuum of it all.

Most TCMA are less than 300 years old, never mind 1000!

The principles and methods however are a different story. Some are drawn from antiquity and some are relatively new.

The human form is unchanged despite it all and its about making better mousetraps now. How to utilize traditional methods to fit with the spirit of the times is the process that every teacher must go through.

and yes, in the beginning we are fed what we are thought capable of keeping down. Over time, w develop a sens of understanding and see teh value of a method or fail to see it and ergo do not use it. This is falling from tradition, but that in and of itself is not always a bad thing. especially when we are talking about change and growth.

[lkfmdc]

Most everything being done today is 100 years old or LESS....

[tug]

"The human form is unchanged despite it all and its about making better mousetraps now. How to utilize traditional methods to fit with the spirit of the times is the process that every teacher must go through."

I'll see that and raise you this - wouldn't that mean that truly traditional was essentially phased out early on? Not that I disagree with that statement, obviously we understand that times always change and that we as humans must adapt to the most current standards, but all that can be left of it is the essence of the art and not the actual apps?

Please excuse me for being obtuse, but the more I think about this, the harder it is to wrap my brain around say, one move or step or application or even a form standing the test of time and staying pure as it was originally meant to be.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[

There is as much ignorance and disagreement within the TCMA crowd as from the outside so I don't really blame the MMA crowd for their views. You have the choice to study what you like so I wouldn't go getting aggrivated too much. Personally I don't obsess over traditional vs. modern. If you like it, do it.[/QUOTE]

Good point Anthony. I believe things such as lineage squabbles, mysticism, and other romantisized idiocy in TCMA is ridiculous. The traditional aspect I was speaking of is in training methods. Basically, is what you learned effective. Does your training have a realitic approach. Do you punch and kick air all the time or do you work out on a heavy bag or with focus mitts. When doing two man drills, is one person compliant or do both train with resistance for a more alive style training. I believe that what many believe is traditional in training methods is not so much traditional as watered down. Perhaps I should clarify that. Realistic arts have evolved more into an MMA style format, which is good, because whatever does not evolve dies. However, ignorance will always be a part of everything which is why you will have some wannabe MMA player spouting crap that all TCMA are long haired passive hippies. Somewhat like how every cage fighter is as tough as Chuck Liddell.:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

I think that traditional methods are seen as inneffective because they are not looked upon for the duration of the path.

By this I mean, in the beginning you learn structure. You learn how your body is and not how it is interacting with another. You learn shape, pattern, structure and principle.

Moving along, you start to learn how to take that information and adapt it to force feedback so you can further adjust the shape to teh unique qualities of you as an individual and guide the shape change with teh driving principles (i.e keep elbows down, cover up, stay tighet make a smaller target, make a larger shiled area atc)

From there, we learn to interact with each other. At first there is compliance so that the mechanics of a given attack or defense can be learned effectively and it ramps up from there from slow and metered sparring to a more free flow.

as teh person develops, the 'style' becomes ingrained through the slow and steady progress made in each step along the way. the methods in this format are often considered 'traditional'.

Now, in newer lines of thinking, there is a prevalance of the idea that you can't swim if you don't go in the water. I generally agree with this, but I also think walking before running is a good idea. And so, you will see more injuries the more aggressive the training wants to take it to the level of 'reality'.

In the long run, I feel the traditional methods are a safer path to travel and you will eventually get to the realism, it just takes longer, but the quality is higher. It is when someone who has taken the slow path dives in that we see pretty amazing skills displayed. there are a great deal of very successful mma fighters who do indeed have some time on the traditional path.

also, some people have innate qualities and abilities and take less time to fully understand what it is they are doing. this is true one both ways.

100 years from now, the best practices of mma training will be considerd traditional because they have kept and nurtured those parts that are useful and show results and have sliced away those parts that are ineffective.

[Merryprankster]

In the long run, I feel the traditional methods are a safer path to travel and you will eventually get to the realism, it just takes longer, but the quality is higher. It is when someone who has taken the slow path dives in that we see pretty amazing skills displayed.

I fundamentally disagree with the assumption behind this comment, and the comment itself in its entirety.

The underlying idea is that somehow MMA is the "fast" method while "traditional methods" are "slower," and that that slower training produces "higher quality" results in the end.

This is dead wrong. I'd have to say it's definitely one of the "excuses" of "traditional" arts and an almost unique hubris as well. If in your face aggressive assholish tough guyness is the trademark of MMA snobbery, then the "oh, you MMA guys will never develop our eventual skill level," is the snobbery of "traditional" arts.

There is NOTHING fast about getting good at MMA. There is drilling, and then drilling, and then drilling, and then drilling.

And then, when you're tired of drilling, there is more drilling. The subtleties of a movement are perhaps not obvious, but they are there. One of the most basic moves in BJJ, for example, is the triangle. Roy Harris broke this day one move down into SEVENTEEN different aspects that make up the perfect triangle. Any mistake in them enables an escape or prevents it from working.

It takes a lot of time to get good at this stuff. The path is NOT fast - I've been a purple belt for about 4 or 5 years now, and the guys who know me on this board will tell you I'm no slouch about my training.

On the other hand, there are guys like Mike Fowler, who got a legit black belt in around 3.5-4 years of training. He also put in about triple the mat time on a daily basis than me because that's what he chose to do.

You can't tell me with a straight face that a person who dedicated themselves in a similar way in a "traditional" art would experience a similar level of success. TMA mythology ABOUNDS with such stories.

And both sportive combat and TMA abound with stories of the old, creaky guy you just couldn't lay a finger on and could kick your ass without thinking about it.

Sounds to me like there's nothing to the "slow" and "fast," and nothing to "higher quality" from one method or the other.

Quality, rather, is just about your personal choices over time.

Now, if you mean that a lot of sportive combat guys are broken at 70 and a lot of TMA guys aren't, then I can only say this: Introduce the same level and frequency of full contact competition into "traditional" arts, and watch the injuries and ****ed up old guys who were badasses in their prime roll in.

[mantis108]

We have to bear in mind that history is written from the perspective of the story tellers. It is often baised at best. In the case of Chinese martial arts, you have at least 2 types of records - written and oral. Please remember that Chinese as a culture goes back a few thousand years into Shamanistic culture where story telling is a big and vital part.

In the dynastic time, there are official records of all things concerning the government. But they are written from the perspective of the ruling government. For example, there are military records from Ming dynasty (1386-1644 CE) that are semi-public published. One of which is by General Qi Jiguang who wrote in details in training army and marines to fight the Japanese pirates invasion. It is of note that fire arms (muskets) and canons are already in regular use arround 1550s in the Ming military. Both army and marines used guns (canons/Fo Lang Ji, and muskets). This is the reason why General Qi commented in the hand to hand combat section (Quan Jing) that empty hand fight training is not really that much of a use in battle (contemperary at the time) but it is definitely a great way to keep up the physical training of the troops. This has a lot to do with the use of fire arms on the battle field where Japanese pirates used guns also.

There are researches going on about the rise of merchant class during Ming dynasty and the need for martial arts tradesmen (ie teachers, armed escorts and body guards). Of course there's the bandits and secret societies sides of the story. These "trades" didn't generally get to come into contact with fire arms. So they do things a bit differently than that of the military obviously.

Martial arts permeates Chinese culture both in the upper classes and the grass root level. Written recordes comes from upper classes and oral history comes from the grass root level. In modern times, you will see a mixture of both since a lot more educated folks all over the world are taking up CMA unlike any other period of time in China.

Traditional CMA especially Kung Fu can be clearly defined. There is a sort of a formulation templet or an alpha formular available. But you will have people calling it non sense as it has to do with the mystical side of the practice. So... what's the point to waste everyone's time on arguing about that?

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

merry, can you honestly say you have good experience with both paths?

Before you toss out phrases such as 'dead wrong' and so on, that is.

Because my experience is different, and some of what you say is supporting exactly what I said.

argument for the sake of argument isn't an eye opener.

[Anthony]

"Basically, is what you learned effective. "

This may be a bigger question than you realise. When you say effective I assume your'e talking about "street fighting effective." Or, will your training make you proficient in defending yourself in an attack. I think it's important, when comparing styles or methods such as TCMA or MMA or anything else, to realise that there can be different goals associated with each method. For instance, if I chose to study Tae Kwon Do for the purpose of winning an olympic medal, it would be pointless for some MMA guy to tell me that my training is no good for the street, wouldn't it? Or, if I'm studying Kung-Fu for the purpose of personal health and fitness, I may not want to roll around on the floor and try to choke some guy out. It would have nothing to do with my personal goal in studying Kung Fu. You have to know what your goals are and pick the method that will help you achieve them. Once you've done that, the "other guy" can't say anything because what you do is effective for you (your goals).

I think that the MMA guys your'e talking about who are quick to trash TCMA don't realise this or just assume that all methods are for the same purpose.....they are not.

"Does your training have a realitic approach. Do you punch and kick air all the time or do you work out on a heavy bag or with focus mitts. When doing two man drills, is one person compliant or do both train with resistance for a more alive style training. "

Just as most TCMA schools do, I started out at a certain level of light or no contact (to attain proper technique and control) and progressed to the most realistic level that is practical within a controlled training environment (school or with partners). I would reccomend that nobody should feel too confident in their ability to defend themselves in a street fight. In today's world there are simply too many variables (knives, boxcutters, guns, disease,...you name it) to be fully prepared to handle any situation safely. No matter how trained you are you've got to do your best to avoid the point of actual contact with someone.

[Hieronim]

traditional often means stagnation.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

traditional often means stagnation.

Sometimes this is true, but it also depends on your outlook. Kung Fu translates roughly as a skill or trait, so why not use whatever skills you can learn to make your art effective. Now to some this may seem non traditional, but the true form of what CMA is about is using one's body to hurt, maim, kill another human being. I'm not saying this is why we are training, to kill people, but the ability is there and to me this is more traditional. Obviously this is all subjective but there have been some interesting discussions on this board so far, particulary from Anthony and Merryprankster.

[SPJ]

traditional often means stagnation.
there are 3 levels.

1. how much is "original". each generation of practitioners will include their own experiences and interpretations and add on or "modify". there will be time to diverse and also time to integrate several branches and become one again.

a. Tai Ji, Chen Chang Xing Lao Jia-> Yang style-> Wu style etc
b. it is said there were only 3 big palms and later people added 5 more to make 8 big palms in Ba Gua.
Cheng Ting Hua included a lot of Shuai Jiao. Zhang Zhao Dong->Jiao Rong Qiaon included Xing Yi. Liu De Kuan had linear walking Ba Gua etc.

c. Ba Ji evolved into small frame and big frame and merged again.

2. training method or Gong Fa. with modern medicine and technology, some training methods or props may be "upgraded"?

3. effectiveness.

If one only trains very well with one skill, one may be an expert on that skill.

Each person has different physical attributes, so what is most effective for you may not be for others.

Liu Feng Cun practiced singl palm change very well.

Guo Yun Shen half step Beng Quan was famous, etc.

:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

What is it about TMA that makes normal people’s brains fall out? Seriously guys, step out of the constraints that have been put upon you and look at the facts.

Do you really accept that studying the traditional way will eventually make you a better fighter than a MMA guy who trains w/ aliveness from the beginning?

If that is true than certainly the same logic would apply to other sports, activities, etc. right?

Let’s use basketball, which has very little to do with fighting, but beyond a doubt requires skill, athletics, coordination.

If there are 2 twins (identical) and one begins practicing basketball in grade school, playing pickup game on the playground, becoming involved in biddy league games with his peers etc and follows this same training into high school where he is a standout and then makes a college team and finally onto the pros where he becomes an all star and a seasoned pro by the age of 30. (Literally hundreds of cases of this scenario right?)

Now let’s say the other twin did not practice in games against other kids, he only shoots hoops by himself, practices solo drills and reviews dozens of books, coaches materials etc. The kid knows ESPN like it was a 3rd parent. He doesn’t begin to enter games until he is in high school and never competes against champion teams, just local pickup games.

Do you think this kid will get to the level of his brother? Why not? It’s obvious right? Brother #1 plays alive most of the time, sure he does drills and he spends his time building skills, but most importantly he’s out on the court playing ball with guys that want him to lose! They want to win! He’s had to deal with this pressure and nature his entire career and thru this he knows what he can and can’t do and timing, reaction, conditioning, things his brother will not get because he does not train like this or compete like this.

So how can it possibly be that TMA is somehow the exact opposite? Magic? What is the absurd explanation that would let brother #1’s skills to plateau early and allow #2 to constantly increase?

I think you’re all much smarter than this. Please give MMA'ers their credit. We work very hard to be the fighters we are.

[WinterPalm]

Shaolintiger, I think you have some valid points. If one wishes to become a great athlete in so and so discipline, then obviously twin #1 would be the better path. However, if one wishes to defend themselves in a situation that is on the street, then there are an infinite amount of variables.

Here's my twin scenario.

Let's take twin #1, he trains everyday at boxing, judo, jiujitsu, sport this or that and from day one he puts on the gloves and practices in a highly competitive environment and everyday he trains against his peers and soon he starts to enter local friday night fight events, then amateur fights, and then onto some bigger arenas. He is able to because from day one he has been training with like minded people and he knows the rules and shape of the game like nobody else. He is well-rounded and can play the game better than anyone else.

Now let's take twin #2. Twin #2 starts training in a kung fu hall, (and I'll give the benefit of the doubt that this is a good training hall much like I gave the benefit of the doubt to the MMA hall above), and he starts building up his stances, his conditioning through sam sing, iron palm, etc, and he participates in self defense and awareness drills. Everyday he is told and believes, that an attack can happen instantly and he must get out alive. There may be knives, there may be many people, they may bite, they may spit, they may do any sort of disgusting behaviour because it is REAL combat. So, twin #2 is not keen on fighting because he wants to protect himself and get away without getting hurt. Therefore he trains in the a multitude of ways to prevent any type of attack and trains two on one, with realisitic circumstances and weapons. He has no need for trophies, or to win tournaments, and considers his mind his best weapon.

He has never competed in an event but spars full contact, sans gear, and puts real scenarios to work with movements that will kill someone if need be. His mindset far exceeds his physical abilities.

This is the difference, nothing against MMA, but if you tell me that twin #2 is not prepared then you are wrong. Martial arts are not a game, this is hard to take, but they are for real fighting, where any awful thing can come. There are no rules, and there is no gear, and there is only one chance where a loss can mean a death. We train hard and we put in the daily time, but we are not concerned with what others can see but what may happen if all else fails.

[David Jamieson]

st-

no ones getting uptight about traditional martial arts being better or what not, and I personally don't have a problem with mma training methods, just saying they are different, have different aims and goals and mma training has it's goodness as do traditional martial arts.

besides, we all know that neither stands well against the odds of the modern martial art of cap in the ass.

im not into competitive fighting so i don't train for it, but i do spar, do standard drills, bagwork, mitts, pads, + kungfu stuff. It feels good to workout in this way for me, replenishes me and in my opinion is a good path to walk on. I, like many tma-ists don't have any delusions about abilities or limitations and can judge odds in a situation ok without assuming an outcome based on what I known and can or cannot do.

all anyone can do in an optimum way is their best at what it is they are doing.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Thanks for recognizing some of my points.

I’d like to comment on your “twins” scenario because I believe that there are some problems (and hopefully you’ll see my points.)

What makes you think that twin #1 won’t fight dirty on the street? You don’t really think that you have to train how to bite, eye gouge, groin strike do you? Using a base of skills tested in live training, physical conditioning, and competitive mindset (insert the dirty tactics here), on the street this guy shouldn’t have a problem.

“He has never competed in an event but spars full contact, sans gear, and puts real scenarios to work with movements that will kill someone”

Without gear how often can he spar full contact? 1x a week barring major injuries?

You say he trains with no rules, but that is really a lie isn't it?. There are rules in the kwoon ..you’re not maiming each other. They are just a different set of rules than mma. – BTW – Can you think of a set of less restrictive rules than MMA that let 2 fighters from any style or school fight to determine who is better in civilized society. (not purposely trying to kill each other.)

How is competition a bad thing? I've been fighting for a long time..I know that I can beat 95% of the population. But what I really want to know is how many of the 5% I can beat

If Twin #2 is so obsessed with self defense why isn’t he carrying a firearm and a knife backup?

[ShaolinTiger00]

BTW,

just in case someone thinks I'm an MMA A$$hole..

I've recently started a regional group of "advanced" martial artists from just about every imagainable background to get together and train.

We've got MMA guys, TKD guys, MY TangSoDo buddy, some JKD guys, etc.. It's essentially a group of guys that get together to spar, teach, discuss, drink beer without the challenging nature of a "Throwdown". I say advanced because it's really for the teachers/instructors of their schools not the students. This is a time when we can all be students and pass along useful info to our classes.

If anyone in the Ohio Valley/ Western PA ever want to join email me. kungfu guys are welcome.

[Anthony]

Let me give this a try:

"If there are 2 twins (identical) and one begins practicing basketball in grade school, playing pickup game on the playground, becoming involved in biddy league games with his peers etc and follows this same training into high school where he is a standout and then makes a college team and finally onto the pros where he becomes an all star and a seasoned pro by the age of 30. (Literally hundreds of cases of this scenario right?)"

Or, most likely, as is true with 99% or more of all great schoolyard players, he never becomes Pro. He ends up working for UPS making not-so-great money and continues to play in playrounds for fun while paying his bills but never having a "great" life.

"Now let’s say the other twin did not practice in games against other kids, he only shoots hoops by himself, practices solo drills and reviews dozens of books, coaches materials etc. The kid knows ESPN like it was a 3rd parent. He doesn’t begin to enter games until he is in high school and never competes against champion teams, just local pickup games."

Now this guy, with his great knowledge of sports trivia and ESPN, instead becomes a sports writer or sports announcer. He makes millions of dollars, lives in a big house, dates hot women (because he's on TV) and, wines and dines in high class restaurants. Not to mention drives an expensive sports car.

What does this have to do with Martial Arts?

There's more than one way to survive in the world. Nobody is putting down MMA guys, it's just that you have ONE mindset. So you think you have to be the best fighter you can to survive in the world? Ask yourself, "does anyone live a good/successfull life in my neighborhood who doesn't know how to fight?" Chances are.....yes. So what does this prove? That you don't need MA for survival...hence, people do it for many different reasons. This is especially true with TCMA. MMA people have to get it out of their heads that we are all training for "knock-down," "spit-teeth," street battles. MMA guys may be better equipped for a real fight than the average TCMA guy, I'll give you that (generally, your'e all in it for the same reason and you train hard for that). But, a real fight is NEVER a good thing and alot of times it CAN be avoided if not for pride. So you choke some guy out on the street, now deal with his lawyer or, worse, he bit you (go get a blood test). I'm a track star, I ran the heck out of there and laughed about it later. So what's better training for survival Track Team or MMA? Sometimes running away is also a fight.

MMA for sport is fine but youre not going to survive with it better than anyone else in the REAL world.....I firmly believe that.

[MasterKiller]

What good is a fighting skill that takes 30 years to become proficient?

If you train MMA techniques the TMA way, they'll be about as useful as any strip-mall Karate technique.

If you train TMA techniques the MMA way, you'll be able to fight with your TMA skill-set within your life span, and probably before you start growing hair in your ears.

MMA is a training methodolgy to produce fighters. If you aren't interested in becoming a better fighter, then the argument has no bearing on you. But I guarantee you if someone would have shown Wong Fei Hung how to train to become a Matt Hughes, he would have jumped at the chance.

[ShaolinTiger00]

MMA for sport is fine but youre not going to survive with it better than anyone else in the REAL world.....I firmly believe that.

I disagree Anthony. I'll give you a very recent example.

My student was entering his first MMA fight last weekend (which he won after 3 mo. training vs.a guy with a lifetime of wrestling, karate, etc.)

After the win we went out and sat down in box seats for the team that the promoter had given our families. GREAT!

So we're in the fighters box seats and sitting about 4 seats to the left of me is a MMA fighter named Todd "Crazy" Carney. He was the cornerman for his fighter that night and was now sitting in the seats with his wife and kids.

Behind him was a large group of obnoxious guys who were drinking and yelling the entire night, they kept running forwards, putting their hands on the back rail of the box and screaming "Kick his F$^*&(%$@ A$#%$^%$#^%" you get the idea..

now Todd is there with his family so he asks the guys "hey guys chill please" and at this point I realize that something's gonna happen so I stand up and turn towards the back of the box.

The guys kept at it and Todd stand up and warns them that if he has to say something one more time, someone is getting their ass whupped...

Of course this fuels the group of guys so they start jawing, Todd jumps the rail and throws 4 punches dropping 3 guys before I even get a chance to get between them. I am not exxaggerating. 3 full grown men, dropped to the ground in about 2 seconds.

Where am I going?

Todd is a highly trained mma/boxer with physical attributes.

Strength, conditioning, reaction, and Experience will always be part of winning an encounter in any circumstance.

and re: fighting.. I think most people don't want to fight. and I don't think that I'll ever get involved in a streetfight for the rest of my life.

but the truth is that I do want to fight and I want to test myself and fight the baddest MF'ers I can find. I'm leaving this world in a used and abused body and people who know me are going to say "**** that boy can fight!" I want to have documentation and evidence and students and their students so that it's beyond question and no one ever has to wonder or imagine if I was a fighter or how I'd do vs. Bruce Lee. That's part of the legacy that I want to leave behind.

The only reason that I made the initial post was that I was presonally offended by the statement that MMA builds quick skills, but in the end the TMA has better skills. That's just crap. Intelligent people can see that.

[Anthony]

I think you missed a big point of this discussion. "Useful" is pretty much a matter that's up to the individual. You can practice kicks to use in competition or you can practice them to burn calories. So, strip mall karate schools ARE useful to some people.


"MMA is a training methodolgy to produce fighters. "

"Fighting" is not an all inclusive word. You need to make a distinction between fighting for sport or fighting to defend yourself or fighting to survive. Now I know that there is overlap....a good boxer can hold his own in a street fight (when an actual exchange takes place). What i'm saying is that unless your MMA class is training you to dogde bullets or to avoid "dangerous" places then it's really of no great use in the real world is it?

Most people don't get into real fights on a regular basis (so why train so much for it?), most fights are preventable, so if your training for a situation that you are putting yourself in what does that really make you?

I think people need to accept that Martial Arts have evolved into either recreational or sporting activities. Little practical survival use in the real world.

[SifuAbel]

If the MMA method is different in that it spars full contact, then its actually more traditional than what passes for traditional today.

[ShaolinTiger00]

What i'm saying is that unless your MMA class is training you to dogde bullets or to avoid "dangerous" places then it's really of no great use in the real world is it?


I think people need to accept that Martial Arts have evolved into either recreational or sporting activities. Little practical survival use in the real world.

I think that unarmed combat training is useful in the real world.

The "ego fight" & rape prevention come to mind.

[ShaolinTiger00]

If the MMA method is different in that it spars full contact, then its actually more traditional than what passes for traditional today.

I think that there is more to the MMA method than just the degree of contact, but to keep on Able's point I'd add that in this case MMA has improved on was certainly a very limited amount of hard sparring that TMA were doing without the modern sports medicine, nutrition and equipment that me have.

Personlly I think that the "back in the old days is was hard core" has not really been proven with much success.

ex. at it's core, jujutsu is not really much different than TCMA and it's a known fact that they did little live sparring and what was done was closer to a 2 man set that allowed the uke to counter attack if the tori’s attack wasn’t properly executed.

Why? Well because like kungfu it was fighting without your weapon so the attack had to be as “deadly” as possible. So the actual technique wasn’t executed (at least not on any consistent level and remain in good health) which led to the inherent flaw in this training: the lack of the delivery system to execute the technique.

[WinterPalm]

In training with no rules, I was meaning that we are pulling those punches, etc, right before contact, it is no secret to hit hard from any angle, and so we train to hit hard for that angle but don't make contact during our training. We have sparring where no equipment, or sometimes gloves are used, we don't hit those areas but we still incorporate everything and yes, sometimes you do get some pretty sore shins, and yes, after taking a good bare fisted hit to the face, you start to train a little harder, and smarter, or try to continue after getting hit in the junk, which is always an accident, or a body shot that leaves you winded.

As to in the kwoon versus the ring, again, we are not training to enter a competition, we are training to fight. I agree that if people from two schools want to meet up and compete than MMA is a pretty good idea...however, many techniques removed give a definite advantage to the wrestler, for instance. Commonly in a takedown the head is placed on the outside of the body or waist as the legs drives the guy down. This is the perfect position to drop some BACK of the elbows but those are almost always barred. Or small joint manipulation? I understand that anyone can do these things but these are definite advantages to a non-wrestler.
As well, just for giggles, I've seen a fight with Royce Gracie and some karate guy and the karate guy started applying pressure on Royce's eyes and everybody got all panicky and said that he couldn't do that. And somehow Gracie style is better is the conclusion? Come on it's just a matter of people playing the other guy's game.
However, I would rather not see an open style tournament that allowed everything. I have no desire to see humans maim each other but I do agree that if they are to compete then safety should be paramount.

[SifuAbel]

I think that there is more to the MMA method than just the degree of contact, but to keep on Able's point I'd add that in this case MMA has improved on was certainly a very limited amount of hard sparring that TMA were doing without the modern sports medicine, nutrition and equipment that me have.

Personlly I think that the "back in the old days is was hard core" has not really been proven with much success.



Well, we all have our own opinions on this. The true decline of TMA into the "ricebag syndrome" that it is today started around 1985. It all boils down to contact. Pure and simple. Nutrition, equipment etc didn't have as much impact as the removal of purpose that contact provided. People were padding up and going full in my sigungs school in 1975 so the equipment point is moot. Physical conditioning was paramount. Nutrition, meaning mostly "supplements", were around too. Surgery may be better and give old far ts like me more time but thats negligible in the overall scheme of things. Theres always another sharktooth waiting to replace the old ones. The young replace the old. No loss. AFAIC, there is nothing new here. Whats REALLY new is what traditional schools have devolved into, a shadow of its former self. We didn't even see the term "traditional" come into vogue until arts like Wushu began using "modern" as a spin word and "traditional" became the anti spin.

Most here weren't around in the old days.

[Anthony]

"Of course this fuels the group of guys so they start jawing, Todd jumps the rail and throws 4 punches dropping 3 guys before I even get a chance to get between them. I am not exxaggerating. 3 full grown men, dropped to the ground in about 2 seconds."

My point here is that obviously Todd wanted to fight. He initiated it. It would be as if your'e saying that you train so that you can go around starting fights. Todd could have taken his family and walked out.....right? He took a chance with himself and his family.

"Strength, conditioning, reaction, and Experience will always be part of winning an encounter in any circumstance."

Not unless the fourth guy has a gun and shoots Todd for assaulting his friends. This is why I say that people should avoid confrontation at all costs. You don't know who youre messing with.

"but the truth is that I do want to fight and I want to test myself and fight the baddest MF'ers I can find. I'm leaving this world in a used and abused body and people who know me are going to say "**** that boy can fight!" I want to have documentation and evidence and students and their students so that it's beyond question and no one ever has to wonder or imagine if I was a fighter or how I'd do vs. Bruce Lee. That's part of the legacy that I want to leave behind. "

At least your being honest. Do you mean in a sport or real environment? Good luck but I seriously feel that (if youre talking about real life) this is a dangerous attitude to have. You may end up leaving the world sooner than you planned. Do you think your wife or your fatherless children would appreciate your "tough guy" attitude if it gets you killed? It's just my opinion but is martial arts really worth it?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

If the MMA method is different in that it spars full contact, then its actually more traditional than what passes for traditional today.

This is actually one of the points I was trying to get across in the original statement of this topic. That and the fact that there are Kung Fu schools that cross train and are not stagnant.

[SifuAbel]

... or at the very least fight those from other styles to see how they would fare and form strategies to their way.

[mantis053]

When Training in true traditional martial art you are training your body, mind and spirt. It's not just about learning how to fight. I train in Kung Fu and to me it is a state of mind or a way of life. I try to study as much about philosophy as I can. Kung Fu means hard work and there is alot of people out that don't want to put in the effort it takes. They want to walk in. Train for a short time and except to be some kind of martial art expert. Most of the MMA guys have been training there whole lives in one art or another. For an example Matt Hughes he been training in wrestling since he been a kid that's why he is the welter weight champion.
In the age of the lawsuit people are try to sue for anything. People are looking for the big pay off. The easy way out why work and earn money when you can sue for it. So I can't blame teachers relaxing their sparring practices. Do you know how expense insurance is if you have sparring in your school if they insure you at all. Teachers have to have alot of students or they have to do other things to earn money so they can keep the doors open. I think every school should have some form full contact sparring to help students apply what they learned but it's hard when you have Big Brother watching over you. Alot of people want to train but want to get hurt. In sparring the chances of you getting hurt are very good.
The MMA isn't for every one. Some of us want to learn alot more than how beat people up. Kung Fu teaches you how to be a better person in general and not just how to be a better fighter. I've been reading the TAO lately and found that the teachings are very interesting. As far as Kung Fu being flashy. Things are not always what they seem to be at first glance. For example if you fake left and strike right. If your opponent commits him self to the left he gets hit with right. In traditonal Kung Fu there is free hand sparring and condtioning tech. like iron body and iron fist or hand. They also have meditation tech. that improve the thought process and techs. to improve things like vision and reaction time and herbs to improve you interally. I could go on and on but I think that the true meaning is self improvement in all asepts of life at least that what I've been getting out of it. I don't worry about what other people think because I'm the one who chose to study Kung Fu and I have no regrets. Well you all have a good day.
SIGNING OFF NOBBY

[SifuAbel]

par·a·graph Audio pronunciation of "paragraph" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-grf)
n.

1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
2. A mark ( ¶ ) used to indicate where a new paragraph should begin or to serve as a reference mark.
3. A brief article, notice, or announcement, as in a newspaper.

[mantis053]

I've tried to edit the post but it kept jamming everything together. So I left it that way. P.S. I'm like a lotus flower growing in muddy water; touched but not soiled. So get some change and call someone who cares. One more thing I've figured it out and fixed it. I hope it lives up to your standard. You have a nice night.
SIGNING OFF NOBBY

[ShaolinTiger00]

When Training in true traditional martial art you are training your body, mind and spirt. It's not just about learning how to fight.



Some of us want to learn alot more than how beat people up.

It only re-enforces the stereotype of ignorant and close-minded tma artists when I see things like these spit out by some holier-than thou guy who thinks the traditional arts have the market cornered on character development.

Sorry buddy, but there isn't a single virtue that is taught in kung fu that can't be taught in a dozen other activities including MMA.

It's probably hard for a guy like you to imagine as you're so caught up in uniforms, rank, politics, advancement, and other trappings.. typical of people who don't really want to actually fight and become amazing fighters they just want to look and act the part.. Let's do another form! **** yeah!

Instead of talking about character development MMA guys just do it.

Conditioning until you puke and then wiping it off your face and you keep going.
Sparring a guy 3x as skilled as you day in and day out but you don't ever quit because you know that if he screws up you're going to own him. and someday you will. Getting up at 5 in the morning to run hills before you grab a shower and go to work 8 hours and then attend 3 hours of class at night because to be the best you have to train at least 2x a day. Training thru an injury that would have most people lying on their couch because you know a team is depending on you. Eating "food" like your on a desert island to make weight for a fight and being constantly hungry and the only people in the world who understand you are a family of hard-core bad-asses who just got done bouncing your head off their knee.

Character is forged.


Please don't make me pull up one of at least a hundred or so news stories over the last year involving a tma instructor doing something illegal, immoral, despicable, unthinkable etc..

Yeah the MMA's have got a few bad apples, but we sure as hell don't put up the false front of moral superiority that TMA do.

Luckily I know that most tma guys know this and wouldn't dare say such stupid stuff, but everyonce in a while some nailhead pops up and you've got to pound them back down with the hammer..

[Pork Chop]

Just feel like adding in my 2 cents.

I started out in a TMA at the age of 16 (January 1994). I trained with a guy for a couple years. His lineage was messy, but he could fight. Unfortunately I was catching him at a time when his body was breaking down and class was going from rough & tumble to more health oriented. He still talked a good game and was very opinionated on who he knew he could beat. Unfortunately, spending most of my time with him, i picked up that bad habit as well- nasty, nasty habit. Still, I managed to pick up a TON in 2 years of 6 or 7 days a week training with that guy.

After getting stuck at a college I never wanted to go to; I finally found my way to another kung fu school. This time the lineage was nice and clean, masters all over the place with big names, people stoppin by the mo gwoon who I'd seen in magazines. Learned some forms, lost confidence in my skill, and spent more time worrying about politics & meditation than sparring or realistic training. Lasted there a year and a half before it was time to go back to school.

This time at school a sport fighter showed up. In my last few months before graduation I picked up a lot with him. He was open and friendly; a breath of fresh air - it was all about refining stuff for use and using it.

After graduation I moved back east. This time a good traditional school with a good name. Learned a lot of lion dance and tradition. Had a lot of fun; especially at first. After a while the tournament game seemed the priority and politics took some of the fun away. I still wasn't really fighting, or allowed to fight, but i was getting close enough to smell what I was missing.

I decided that the competition side of things was in my blood. That's what I was really in it for all these years. I jumped into sanshou, which lead to boxing and muay thai.

Sometimes I miss the lion dancing & the forms but I don't feel they're necessary for fighting.

The reason I gave the whole "this is your life" thing is coz i've been on both sides of this argument.

I used to get on these websites and argue on the side of the staunchly "traditional". I had faith in the old masters and the current sifus. I believed in the "longer gestation, higher end quality" view point.

These days, I don't think i quite fall into the "traditional bashing" sport crowd yet, but I'm definitely not on the other side of the fence any longer.

I felt if my Sifu ever told me i was "ready" to enter a freefighting competition, that I would do it, and I would win- because I trained with good names in good stuff that came from the source. It took me years (and 3 schools) to realize that I'd never be able to fight. I'd never be "ready". Coz it wasn't in the sifu's best interest to get me "ready".

I learned that Traditional was about 3 things: forms, fighting, and lion dance. Of course the fighting only means "fighting where other kung fu people can see it" so it really just meant "continuous" tournament sparring.

I don't think that what we now call "traditional training" gets you ready to fight. As much as "traditional" folks whine about politics, they love talking politics, and take them more seriously than anyone should. I honestly feel that when it comes to "traditional" the Thais got it more right than anyone else- sportify as much of your art as possible, make sure you pass the rest on for people to play with & use if they can, and to leave all political arguments to be resolved in the ring.

Too many people get caught in the cult of personality and the chinese recreationism stuff.

I back up what ST00 says. I used to hate his posts coz i thought he was close minded. Thes days i read them with a different understanding.

That's not to say I don't feel TCMA has it's purpose, or that it couldn't get better. I'm just saying that the way things stand now, it's not the best place to learn how to fight.

I thoroughly expect to get flamed for this one; coz i know i woulda been flaming me 5 or 6 years ago.

[mantis053]

Wow I must of hit a nerve. You must not like people with a different opinion then yours. If anything your the one that thinks your holyer than god. I'm just presenting a different point of view. If you want to think that I'm stupid go head it don't bother me one bit. Just one more thing all I keep hearing is how good MMA is and bad traditional martial art. I think there both good. I just choose to study Kung Fu and I don't think there any thing wrong with that. So I guess will have to agree to drsagree.
Well I also have been on both sides. I started out with Kempo karate the Ed Parker system but something was missing. So than I studied the Dan-te system of fighting and it was brutal. They had a ring in the middle of the school and all we did full contact sparring no pads. We learned grappling striking, and Posion Hand. I had the chance to learn the dan-te death charge. Something was still missing. So take Kung Fu now and I like it . It been somehting I always wanted do since I was a kid. I not trying tell any body what's good or bad and I'm just to express my take on things. So that being said. Thanks for your input and you have a nice night.
SIGNING OFF NOBBY

[Royal Dragon]

That's not to say I don't feel TCMA has it's purpose, or that it couldn't get better. I'm just saying that the way things stand now, it's not the best place to learn how to fight.

Reply]
Hmmm, I think the issue is more that, few, if any TEACH traditionally. Today what is often *Called* traditional is a modern practice. The old traditional methods are not often seen in most TCMA schools. You get the forms, and conditioning, but in the old days they also did pretty much what the MMA guys do today. They just had 6-8 hour days in which to get it all done.

Today we practice a few hours in the evening, and that is just not enough time to realy dive into HUGE traditional arts that were meant to be practiced as a full time occupation.

Also, in the old days, I suspect the arts were much leaner too. Look at my style, by the Ming dynasty some lines of it had a single empty hand form that was like 1000 moves long (Shaolin's branch). But originally it had just 32 methods, and that was it. Many styles today have over 100 forms, when they orginally had 3 (North Mantis for example)

My style was developed by a career miltary general. After a LIFETIME of warring, and practicing a variety of styles, he settles on 32 core methods. He basically studied all he could, from many sources, and then refined it all down to a small system that worked well for him under a large variety of conditions. Which is exactly what the MMA guys do today. Only he was doing it 1000+ years ago.

So from my view, you have some really old school styles out there, and they are great to develope a foundation and give you a large variety to chose from when devloping your own method, but the really ancient way is to test yourelf in battle, and really hold to what is keeping you alive and make it your own style.

The real question is not "Who is traditional,and who is not". But more like who is just *Preserving* the technology for the future, and who is actually following the ancient path. Both paths are traditional.

Those who codify things into forms,are prserving the past, so everyone else has a database to live the ancient ways. BOTH are nessasary as everyone has a little bit different angle of understanding. One group focuses on one aspect of the art, the other the opposite, basically becasue no one has time to do it all.

[Merryprankster]

David,

You are generally smarter than to try the "if you haven't experienced it then you can't comment on it," argument. This is akin to saying "if you've never been in war, you have no right to comment on strategy/tactics etc."

My points were only two and very simple:

1. MMA is not "fast." There is nothing fast about it. The only thing that might make it SEEM fast is that many people who train MMA are training to compete. This forces them to put in more training time than the "average" TMA person, who, we have all agreed, is typically not training to compete. The rate at which people get better is nothing more than a function of focus and time spent practicing properly. This is universal. The fast but not as good, slow but better in the end thing is a false distinction.

2. If anybody is basing their perceptions of skill later on in life off of the disparity between old competitors and old-noncompetitors, it's bad logic. Put a full contact competition circuit with medium to high participation into any "TMA," and watch the old cripples flood in.

[metsubushi]

This stuff boggles my mind. Why is MMA considered non traditional? Just because it mixes traditional sport muay thai with traditional Brazillian JiuJitsu, or traditional greco roman wrestling with traditional boxing, or traditional karate/gung fu with traditional BJJ/Sambo/etc? People have been blending martial arts since the beginning. I adore MMA and it's athletic focus. How it allows grapplers and stand up fighters to test their mettle against one another in a reasonably safe context. But there's still a huge divide between a Lidell and a Nog. MMA'ist are not perfectly ****genized fighting machines anymore than TCMA'ist are throat striking internal organ exploding killers. Most are grapplers with so so stand up, or stand up guys with so so grappling. Comparing your average martial artist, MMA or otherwise, to a Silva or Saku is every bit as ridiculous as comparing random kids in a boxing gym to Floyd Mayweather. Get real. MMA did not prove traditional training methods to be worthless. That doesn't even make sense. What it did was prove that there was a dimension of fighting that most martial artist were unfamiliar with. The ground. I think that's great, as it can only lead to further improvement. But honestly alot of the attitudes expressed when discussing this stuff is no different than the attitudes of those following the Karate craze of the 60's, or the Ninja craze of the 80's. The whole "This style is in the spotlight now, so it's obviously the best thing ever."

All of this battle of the buzz word 'Alive' Vs 'Dead' stuff. My God. Any good training program involves elements of both. Nobody spars all of the time, that's absurd. Nor do you always have a training partner or heavy bag with you when you want to work body mechanics or whatever. Hell forms/shadowboxing/etc. If fighting is your goal then training forms exclusively(does anybody anywhere actually do this?) is even more absurd. In my opinion, this is just a false dillema spawned by either ego or capital concerns. Not logic. If you hit a heavy bag, you probably aren't hitting too differently from how Joe Louis or Marciano hit it. That's tradition. If you're rolling BJJ you're rolling in almost a hundred years of tradition. If you're off somewhere swinging a broadsword or Escrima stick around, you're probably playing tradition too. If you fight full contact, like, welcome to planet earth. Until you start flying or breathing underwater, nothing is going to change too much. Various traditions will continue to merge as they always have. People are so steeped in tradition that they don't even realize it. Tradition is something that's handed down from one generation to the next. And usually with additions. Tradition is not Dogma.

And I have to say, a Mixed Martial Artist isn't any one thing anymore than a classical MA is any one thing. Sometimes the difference is as simple as two years of groundfighting, or a year of boxing. Someone kind of implied that MMA get up and run at 5am. DO all MMAist do this? Hellllll no. But it only stands to reason that someone training as a Pro or Semi Pro athlete will probably train harder than a "hobbyist". :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

This stuff boggles my mind. Why is MMA considered non traditional?
MMA is a recent development and is not traditional. Modern MMA training has been evolving only over the last 30 years or so, starting in Brazil, moving to the US and Japan in the early 90’s and then to the rest of the world.

Traditional MA’s do not focus on all of the aspects that MMA does. MMA combines standing kicks and punches, clinch work, takedowns, and ground work into a comprehensive whole. It also utilizes protective gear and other techniques that allow for hard sparring against resisting opponents in each of these areas without having an unreasonable amount of injuries. “Traditional” martial arts, while sometimes doing some of the things MMA does, have never combined everything the way the modern MMA does.



In training with no rules, I was meaning that we are pulling those punches, etc, right before contact, it is no secret to hit hard from any angle, and so we train to hit hard for that angle but don't make contact during our training

Pulling punches = TMA.
Punching hard with minimal protective equipment = MMA



When Training in true traditional martial art you are training your body, mind and spirt. It's not just about learning how to fight. Kung Fu teaches you how to be a better person in general and not just how to be a better fighter

Adding spiritual aspects = TMA
Focusing 99.9% of effort on what works for fighting = MMA



I believe in the concept of forms being set patterns that improve footwork, motor skills, application and set ups, and are an essential part of the martial arts training regiment.

Theory that forms training is an aspect of training = TMA
Theory that forms plays almost no role in training = MMA



I think this comes from the fact that not everything in TCMA is directly for fighting. There's an entertainment/artistic aspect to some forms and movements. I think that even some instructors don't get this and incorrectly try to teach movements that are for aesthetic value as self-defense movements. So obviously, outsiders will see these so called self-defense movements as impractical and many movements are.

Teaching “artistic” movements = TMA
Throwing out “artistic” movements and using only functional ones = MMA



Well I also have been on both sides. I started out with Kempo karate the Ed Parker system but something was missing. So than I studied the Dan-te system of fighting and it was brutal.

These are not MMA training.



If the MMA method is different in that it spars full contact, then its actually more traditional than what passes for traditional today.

That is only one of the aspects of MMA training. It is all of the variables of MMA training that make it different from traditional training. The sum of the whole ends up being more that the sum of the individual components.



And I have to say, a Mixed Martial Artist isn't any one thing anymore than a classical MA is any one thing. Sometimes the difference is as simple as two years of groundfighting, or a year of boxing. Someone kind of implied that MMA get up and run at 5am. DO all MMAist do this?

No, but most MMA guys will train punches, kicks, clinch, takedowns, and groundwork. They will also spar hard against resisting opponents in each of these areas and will utilize protective equipment to minimize training injuries.



All of this battle of the buzz word 'Alive' Vs 'Dead' stuff. My God.

Alive also means training and sparring in each area that may occur in the fight (outside range, clinch, takedowns, ground work). Leave out any one of those areas and you are not training in an alive manner.


A truly traditional martial arts trains in many of the same manners that MMA fighters train, excellent physical condtioning, hard contact sparring, throws and groundwork,

TMA’s have “traditionally” left at least one of these areas out of the equation. For example, hard and continuous training on the ground was unheard of in TMA’s before BJJ and MMA were introduced to the world outside of Brazil.

[Green Cloud]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about but ground fighting teck. are a part of kung fu training. In my sytem we call it dei saat (ground cruelty) or dei tong (from the ground up. Styles like dai sing peck gwa moon ( monkey style focus on floor fighting. Mongolian wrestling, and just about every kung fu system focuses on china Joint locking Tech. You can say styles like ying jow pai are like jiu jitsu in that respect. sui jow like judo and stlyles like tai chi or bat gwa are like akido.

greencloud.net

[lkfmdc]

(Dear lord, I can't believe I'm about to post and get involved in this mess)

There are, simply put, no "new techniques".... EVERYTHING you see in the ring or the cage you can find in tradtional martial art (TMA)

The fundamental difference is that the so called "MMA" people train those techniques realistically and many TMA do not

TMA as it is practiced today is also filled with utterly useless clap trap, primiarily a result of 1) lots of spare time on their hands since they don't fight and 2) a desire to sell "cool stuff" to unsuspecting rubes

Other fundamental differences between so called TMA and so called MMA

Most TMA people view their method and their lineage as religion. They do not change what they do, they do not look outside it. Frequently I've heard people say "oh, that technique? We don't do that, it isn't part of our system"

MMA people don't care if it is "part of their system"... they are more of the "use what works" sort of crowd..

A TMA person might sneer at me for using a Jiujitsu style arm bar, I'll just laugh because I don't care, I use what will work, don't care if it wasn't part of the system 150 years ago

TMA also tend to be clan-ish. They train with their class mates, they view outsiders as enemies.

Most MMA welcome the opportunity to work out with other people....

Most TMA attitudes have groundings in historical context... but people need to realize that this is 2006... not 1906

[neilhytholt]

I think MMA is cool because they don't guard their groin or their head at all.

So if I ever fight an MMA guy that gives me an instant advantage. They go for a takedown, box their ears or break their neck. They try to put me into guard, just punch or knee their groin.

[SifuAbel]

(Dear lord, I can't believe I'm about to post and get involved in this mess)



I feel for you . Really, I do. And can live with your description.

Although, I would like to strip the word "Traditional" from what is called TMA today.

[neilhytholt]

I feel for you . Really, I do. And can live with your description.

Although, I would like to strip the word "Traditional" from what is called TMA today.

TMA today is not really TMA. What is TMA today? In most Chinese circles it is wushu and fancy dancing along with some sparring, sanda or san shou. In karate/TKD circles it is forms + sparring that is basic punching and kicking.

It is not usually about getting into knife fights in some back alley, which is what it used to be about.

So most TMA today I call 'Traditional Modernized Arts'. Or 'Tacky Modernized Arts', in the case of the people who go to tournaments and do speed kata and stuff.

[Knifefighter]

I think MMA is cool because they don't guard their groin or their head at all.

So if I ever fight an MMA guy that gives me an instant advantage. They go for a takedown, box their ears or break their neck. They try to put me into guard, just punch or knee their groin.

Perfect example of why MMA people think many TMA practitioners are clueless.

[Knifefighter]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about but ground fighting teck. are a part of kung fu training. In my sytem we call it dei saat (ground cruelty) or dei tong (from the ground up. Styles like dai sing peck gwa moon ( monkey style focus on floor fighting. Mongolian wrestling, and just about every kung fu system focuses on china Joint locking Tech. You can say styles like ying jow pai are like jiu jitsu in that respect. sui jow like judo and stlyles like tai chi or bat gwa are like akido.

greencloud.net

Prior to the UFC's being introduced into the US, what percentage of your training time did you spend training and sparring on the ground?

[metsubushi]

Pulling punches = TMA.
Punching hard with minimal protective equipment = MMA


Say what? What about boxing, kickboxing, bareknuckle competitions, the old full contact karate, street fights, and whatever else there is out there? MMA competitions are not even among the first to involve full contact striking. I specify competitions, because in day to day training MMA uses safety equipment and limited semi hard contact like everybody else.


Traditional MA’s do not focus on all of the aspects that MMA does. MMA combines standing kicks and punches, clinch work, takedowns, and ground work into a comprehensive whole. It also utilizes protective gear and other techniques that allow for hard sparring against resisting opponents in each of these areas without having an unreasonable amount of injuries. “Traditional” martial arts, while sometimes doing some of the things MMA does, have never combined everything the way the modern MMA does.

I know what MMA is and includes, what I disagree with is the idea that it's somehow completely non traditional. This is like a big game of semantics. You take a guy that has trained BJJ all of his life, and give him a year of Muay Thai, and he's a MMA'ist. Like I said earlier, the only aspect that was missing before, was groundfighting. Fighters from various disciplines are adding it to their repetoire, but that's not necessarily anti tradition. That wasn't even a reality to most martial artist back in the day. Back then(say the 50's) your odds of getting in a fight and being taken down and worked for a superior position were next to none. BJJ is the tradition that most people over here had no clue about, making it's techniques strange and ridiculously difficult to counter.

But in America there are Martial Arts schools that have been using equipment for hard sparring for decades. They sparred in ranges they were likely to encoutner, or stuff that they knew existed. Sparring hard is nothing exclusive to MMA, and that does not free it from tradition. Another tradition(BJJ) has been added to the mix because the cultural and geographical borders have once again began to blur, but that's always the way. This idea of TMA being argued sounds ridiculously negative/stereotypical to me. There are undoubtedly schools that train as mentioned, but that's not all there is out there. Or maybe that's just my view because I've never come across any cultish traditionalist outside of movies and the internet. But tradition isn't limited to forms or chi or whatever the ****. It's any training method that was handed down from the generation before you. It's setting up hooks and crosses with jabs, or skipping rope, or roadwork, etc etc etc. To me, MMA is a modern blend of traditional styles.



Teaching “artistic” movements = TMA
Throwing out “artistic” movements and using only functional ones = MMA


Yeah, non artistic/non flashy techniques like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=R9o85Gi-StY) or this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xehQPfgJj7g). ;)

[Knifefighter]

Say what? What about boxing, kickboxing, bareknuckle competitions, the old full contact karate, street fights, and whatever else there is out there? MMA competitions are not even among the first to involve full contact striking. I specify competitions, because in day to day training MMA uses safety equipment and limited semi hard contact like everybody else..

You will never hear a MMA stylist say that he and his training parnters never punch full forcel when training and/or competing. However, you will often hear that from TMA practitioners, as cited poster had stated.




This idea of TMA being argued sounds ridiculously negative/stereotypical to me. There are undoubtedly schools that train as mentioned, but that's not all there is out there.

Watch any old clip of traditional CMA fighting and you will see it was nothing like modern MMA fighting.

[Green Cloud]

Prior to the UFC's being introduced into the US, what percentage of your training time did you spend training and sparring on the ground?


Actualy alot I didn't have to watch TV or wait for the latest craze to say ok it's time to be realist and learn how to fight from the ground. then again I did have a jiu itsu backround and one of the first styles of kung fu I studied was monkey kung fu wich mostly focuses on ground fighting.

Not to mention I went to high school and like everyone else I was exposed to wrestling. As a martial artist it's natural to evolve if your going to be any good.

[Ao Qin]

I found these definitions in a book - are they accurate?

"Martial Art; A struggle against your own bad habits, laziness, sloth, etc. - developing self-discipline - over YOURSELF - may in fact lead to emotional and mental (and perhaps spiritual) discipline. A quiet and lonely path. Does not need to hurt other people to feel their lives have meaning. May not lead to anything - one doesn't advertise to others or promote oneself, as this is a wasteful ego pursuit. It's simply your own path in life - the pursuit of individual excellence.

Martial Sport; A struggle against others. For ego (or monetary) rewards. So...after a cage fight, you don't go out and get drunk, have promiscous sex, hit people for no reason...right? May lead to...ummm...hospital bills, imprisonment and jail time...enemies, etc...oh yes, and pride, arrogance, etc."

Probably all BS anyway.

Cheers - AQ

[mantis053]

I would to clear something up. The Dan-te system is like the MMA because the founder of the system was an expert at judo, jiu-jitsu, tai chi chuan, shaolin boxing, kempo, karate, Yawara, boxing and wrestling. additionally, he held a black belt in aikido and a masters certificate in kibo. His second in command had a 10th dan black(red) belt & gold sash of the "dan-te (deadly hands) system of fighting, 6th dan chuan fa kempo (kung fu), 5th dan yawara ryu jiu jitsu, 4th dan chung do kwan/ tae kwan do (korean karate) , Shorie goju (okinawan karate) as well as black belts in ju-te aikido/ bo-ki-bo, and Kodokan judo and when I was styuding there he was graci certified.
Count Dan-TE was the first, last and only person to win his title after the 1967 world fighting arts "Death Matches" (now illegal). Black Belt magazine, the worlds oldest self-defence magazine, in 1964 referred to Count Dan-TE as one of the top instructors in the world then went on to give him the largest personal write-up in their history in a two piece article in their april 1969 and july 1969 issuses.
On Sept. 1 , 1967 the Directive Committee of the World Federation of Fighting Arts declared Count Dan-Te the "worlds deadliest figthing master " in recognition of his having defeated the world's foremost fistic and grappling arts masters in "no holds-barred" fighting matches. Count Dan-TE was never defeated tied or even injured in any of the full-contact, no holds barred matches he had against some of the world's top experts' and masters of street fighting, judo, karate, kung fu boxing, wrestling' savate, tai chi chuan, aikido, jiu jitsu, dim mak or other of self-defence or fighting arts.I only studied there for a year but it was a great experience.
What the MMA is doing is nothing new. The reason I mentioned the different styles I've had studied and am curently studing was to let people know I wasn't totally ignorant to the subject. I like MMA. I watch the UFC and PRIDE all the time and think there should be some form of full contact sparring in every school but I still think that martial arts have a little more to offer to students then just fighting. OH ST00 I'm like a crooked nail I don't hammer in to place so easy. All you have a good night and again thanks for the input.
Signing off Nobby

[metsubushi]

Watch any old clip of traditional CMA fighting and you will see it was nothing like modern MMA fighting.


Because of the ground. I've said that multiple times. I recognize that. The groundfighting in the current blend is much more intense thanks to a traditional brazilian art.



You will never hear a MMA stylist say that he and his training parnters never punch full forcel when training and/or competing. However, you will often hear that from TMA practitioners, as cited poster had stated.



Oh you just wait until it becomes even more commercial. It's just a matter of time.

[Knifefighter]

and when I was styuding there he was graci certified.\

What year(s) did you train there?

[ShaolinTiger00]

OMG I just realized something...


Mantis053 is talking about Count Dante as in the Black Dragon Fighting Society!!

Count Dante is a world Reknown Fraud!!!!!!!!! You could do a search and find dozens of pages of people who have busted his lies.

LMAO..... so much for your MMA training...

[rogue]

Quote:
A truly traditional martial arts trains in many of the same manners that MMA fighters train, excellent physical condtioning, hard contact sparring, throws and groundwork,

TMA’s have “traditionally” left at least one of these areas out of the equation. For example, hard and continuous training on the ground was unheard of in TMA’s before BJJ and MMA were introduced to the world outside of Brazil.

So that means that BJJ is not MMA since it leaves out at least one of those areas. Would you consider BJJ traditional since it does have certain traditions?

[Knifefighter]

So that means that BJJ is not MMA since it leaves out at least one of those areas. Would you consider BJJ traditional since it does have certain traditions?

BJJ is not MMA. BJJ is 90 to 95% focused on the ground.

BJJ is more traditional than MMA but not as traditional as CMA.

[lkfmdc]

In the "old days" we certainly did spar with "ground fighting" but, and this is a big but, what we saw as ground fighting was influeneced by the traditional Chinese martial art idea of ground fighting....

We never thought about pinning, controlling position, submissions, etc... we thought about hitting the guy who was thrown, stomping on him, and we thought about kicking and sweeping from teh bottom and getting up....

You could fault it in a few ways, that's on you really, but the idea that TMA never sparred or never worked "live" is not 100% correct

[Green Cloud]

Dave I have video footage of sifu CTS taking us through advanced ground controlling Tech. I havent wached it in years, but my point is that we always practiced ground fighting. I must admit you are right when it come to doing sport oriented wresteling type pining and what not. Our ground fighting was more for the street.

These debates now a days are silly. Every style has its weaknesses if people haven't made any modifications to there systems by now than that's just stupid.

I can remember a time when we first opened the Mineola school when you were totaly against any westernized train of thought. In fact these were your words verbatum " I'l be damed if I turn this into A Jeet Kune Do school.

For me our kung fu sytem was good because it provided us with many ranges and theories of fighting. But I was always aware of gaps in the style so I filled them.


greencloud.net

[MasterKiller]

Perfect example of why MMA people think many TMA practitioners are clueless.

Have you seen Bas Rutten's Street Fighting video? He talks about using these very same techniques.

[Green Cloud]

I saw it but I was too busy laufing, I wonder if he knows how funny he is. Everything that he did in the bar is stuff that we focus on, you know street fighting. But most of what he did is from Krav Ma ga. wich seems to be a well rounded system of self defese that is influenced by many systems.

greencloud.net

[metsubushi]

haha Bas Rutten's video is so violent.

[rogue]

The hot sauce move was hilarious.:D

[Green Cloud]

I like the part where he snaps the guys ankle off the chair for looking at his wife:D

[mantis053]

I studied there from the begining of 2000 to the begining of 2001. I studied under William V. Aguiar and his son. He took over after Dan-TE died in 1975. Master Aguiar died in 2005. ST00 I don't if he was a fraud or not the man died in the year I was born. When I said it was like MMA was because in the manner in which we trained. They taught me a variety of grappling arts and striking arts in full contact combat. I will not sit here and participate in dishonoring a dead master that's nolonger here to defend himself but if you have documented proof on this. Educate Me. Just don't make empty staments. Back it up with clear undisputed facts and not just hear say.
Kifefighter I was told by Master Aguiar and I seen a certificate on the wall certifying him to teach bjj other then that I can't tell any more. Well everyone it's been interesting reading all your posts but this debate can go on forever. I guess it comes down to what your looking for. I would like to make one more point before I go. From What I have read Tai Chi is a martial art and alot of older people take it because of it's slow and low inpact training. Can you inmagine a 70 year old training in MMA they probably would have a heart attack or break somehting with in the first 2 min. All of you have a good night.
SIGNING OFF NOBBYwww.blackdragon.co.za/kate_dante.htm

[David Jamieson]

1. MMA is not "fast." There is nothing fast about it. The only thing that might make it SEEM fast is that many people who train MMA are training to compete. This forces them to put in more training time than the "average" TMA person, who, we have all agreed, is typically not training to compete. The rate at which people get better is nothing more than a function of focus and time spent practicing properly. This is universal. The fast but not as good, slow but better in the end thing is a false distinction.

2. If anybody is basing their perceptions of skill later on in life off of the disparity between old competitors and old-noncompetitors, it's bad logic. Put a full contact competition circuit with medium to high participation into any "TMA," and watch the old cripples flood in.


first, i for one know that there is no teacher like experience. In matters of this nature it is not as simple as the self evident "it's hot so don't touch it". Experience is required to give insight in regards to this subject and armchairing is only that. As you know, we have many armchair guys on both sides of the post, those who have only training in so called mma and those who have only trainined in so called tcma.

Neither camp can speak with any authority on teh other with the exception of those people who have experience in both. Please accept that I can't accept the calls of someone who has zero experience and can only congeal and regurgitate the commoents they've glened off others. That's not directed at your merry, But suffice it to say, there is no teacher like direct experience, never had been and never will be.

on your first point, I disagree. the cycle of training in mma type venues is quick and focuses on far fewer things than a traditional buffet of training.

IN an mma club, if you are not in the ring inside of 90 days, then what the he11 are you doing there? You aren't training for the venue that's fopr sure and short of being severly disabled or mentally handicapped, you will be crossing hands and getting into teh thick of it much more quickly than someone in a traditional venue.

the mma-ist will get better faster with his smaller selection of tools and will be able to use them more effectively. Only thing is, injuries will be higher and the toolbox will take more time to grow and structure and form will gradually improve and in doing so will improve the delivery of the techs.

In the meantime, the traditionalist is doing things that will never make their way into regular mma training cycles. Things are done with an eye towards longevity, general health and peace and well being etc etc. These things are common in tcma training and mma training is virtually completely devoid of this type of training. IN fact, many despise it because they feel it has nothing to do with competitive fighting...and, well it doesn't, not directly anyway.

so on point one, I disagree with you. I see it and have seen it differently than that. So that's an experiential thing and when I see more consitent difference than this, I may be easier to convince, but for now, my opinion is that it is your view that is incorrect.

on point two, that is just hypothetical. Can't say really. The idea in many traditional arts is to curb one's violence because of the typically pseudo-religious oprigins of many tma. the buddhism, the taoism, the philosophy of non agression paired and juxtaposed against the training of fighting and kiolling methods and techniques.

In short, people may choose which ever they like or both, but if they're not going to taste then they have no place commenting on a falvour they do not know.