Wing Chun/fight other styles

[Emeraldphoenix]

I am not trolling or trying to start flame war.


I am curious if you guys ever spar other styles. It seems that i only ever see you sparring with in your own style.

I took Wing Chun for about 6 months and i have respect for the style. It just wasnt my cup of tea. I always hear stuff like, " other styles cant handle our tech." General stuff like that.

So any one that is stictly a wing chun practioner, have any experiences of fighting other styles i would love to get some feed back.

[Fajing]

I personally like to spar practitioners from other styles. A few of my buddies practice various arts like BJJ, Boxing, and Karate. It's fun to mix it up with them. Strengthen your own game by knowing what's out there. We all learn from each other. :) What is your preferred style?

[Emeraldphoenix]

I am with you on mixing it up with various styles. Just have a hard time finding any wing chun people that will venture outside of their style. That is why i posted the question. I study 7 * currently.

This issue of going outside your style is not limited to wing chun it just seems that it goes on more so in wing chun.

[fiamacho]

We have always encouraged sparring and competing with students from other styles, it is the only way to really sharpen up your skills.

What I have noticed over the years is that Wing Chun practitioners always seem to have a problem defending against styles that love to predominantly kick or lately grapple. I have always thought of this as just a mindset thing as a lot of the "sparring" seems to based around hand techniques only.

[viper]

Yeh 4sure I love sparring other systems its like they dont know me I dont know them its great. When you fight wc vs wc they know what youre gna do unless ur like our school we somtimes take other sysytem techs. Our school higher encourages spreading our wings so to speak but I agree alot no this works against a wc guy no on the street it doesnt matter just stick to ur principles. Also at our school we have alot of really good tkd guys train with us for hands so I kinda get best of both worlds still love my hands but. Also my bjj teacher is fun for sparring with he was a wing chun sifu and a karate black belt so he knows all the tricks we haveso it dont matter brain vs brain i think. Soon im sparring a guy who learns arnis in the phillipines frm the gm hes bak coz my sifu who is also my buddy i live near is his friend n has arranged it im gna get whooped but I love the growth i will get frm it.

[Liddel]

Ive rolled with a few differnt styles of Karate, VT, kickboxers and MMA styles.

It took me a while to get to a place where i had enough confedence to approach strangers of other arts to spar, but some have become good friends and it was an invaluable experience.

For those that are approaching a level where they would feel comfortable to do so i would reccomend training with any other style because it makes your learning curve a little steeper :rolleyes:


"So any one that is stictly a wing chun practioner, have any experiences of fighting other styles i would love to get some feed back."

My biggest test so far was sparring with my friend who is a member of a close protection squad for my countries diplomats - tough hombre's , mentally and physically -
They mainly use CQB and MMA techniques and approaches.

Im surprised how similar CQB tech's are to VT in relation to the straight foward approaches.

His MMA was far beyond my fighting ability (after all im not a proffesional) but during sparring, specifically being taken down, i realised my VT can help me in places on the ground and he helped me apply a VT mindset to a MMA style - subsequently he also adapted certain traits of my VT, such as elbows -
(mainly because of the smaller action with my VT elbow which makes it easier for him to smack suspects without on lookers being able to see it - yes they are a dodgie bunch !)

His first comment after we rolled was " you have very deceptive power"

[Green Cloud]

I have to agree with emeraldphoenix, from my experience in kung fu tourneys, when win chun people are in divisions like Chi sao they do good. But when they venture into continuous sparring where long arm tech. and kicks are employed wing chung people don't do very well.

I think the reason is that most wing chung practisioners don't like to venture out of their comfort zone. As a supplement to ones training I think it's great.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Expanding on supplemental training is important. Wing chung is great if you have some kicking skill and some grappling abilities. Wing chung by it self makes for an incoplete fighting style since it only concentrates on a specific range of fighting. Altough I think others would dissagree especialy wing chung purist.

greencloud.net

[ghostofwingchun]

I have to agree with emeraldphoenix, from my experience in kung fu tourneys, when win chun people are in divisions like Chi sao they do good. But when they venture into continuous sparring where long arm tech. and kicks are employed wing chung people don't do very well.

I think the reason is that most wing chung practisioners don't like to venture out of their comfort zone. As a supplement to ones training I think it's great.

greencloud.net

What is continuous sparring?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Green Cloud]

It's just sparring that is done in kung fu tourneys. Unlike the point system that is used in Karate tourneys where they stop you every time you get a point by hitting a legal target. In most kung fu tournaments they allow you to go full out to the body and allow controled contact to the face. The fight is interupted after the round is over and the fighter who controlled the round is the winner.
Usually most fights are two two minute rounds unless there is a tie.

Just to re cap in karate competitions they use the three point rule and you are stopped every time some one gets a point. Also there is no contact allowed to the face and light contact to the body.

In continuous you keep on fighting till the fight is over then the you get scored on your overal performance. A lot more realistic.:cool:

greencloud.net

[TenTigers]

There are many WC schools that do very well against outside stylists. It is totally up to the training methods of the Sifui. Sifus like Duncan Leung, and Alan Lee train their guys against kicks,and strikes ranging from muay thai kicks to CLF strikes-probably based on their Hong Kong days. I knoe there are other instructors who train this as well, but there is still a tendancy to pidgeon-hole in training, which will cause a rude awakening in fighting.
I would be interested in hearing how many schools also train against outside techniques.

[sihing]

Expanding on supplemental training is important. Wing chung is great if you have some kicking skill and some grappling abilities. Wing chung by it self makes for an incoplete fighting style since it only concentrates on a specific range of fighting. Altough I think others would dissagree especialy wing chung purist.

greencloud.net

What's the definition of "Complete"?

If it is the ability of the art to teach one how to deal with all ranges of fighting and all fighters from whatever range they specialize in, then WC is very capable in it's ability to teach one what to do. Whether or not people use what they learn correctly is another story. WC takes you half way, what you do with it brings you all the way.

I think there is alot of misconception out there by people that think they know what WC is. There is longer range fighting in WC, Mid range fighting in WC and shorter Range Fighting in WC, but really it is the practitioner that determines to which range they will fight at. If the art you are learning has only answers to specific things, like punches for example, and nothing else, then it is "Incomplete" IMO. Otherwise what you are learning is a complete art in the way it provides protection for you when it is needed most.

The basic idea behind closer range infighting is you are taking away space from your attacker, with this you take his ability to attack you away also because most people and styles need space to generate power from their structure. Also, visual cues and reaction time are taken away since the action is happening so close to the body, therefore contact reflexes are needed here, which most fighters do not have to a high enough degree to use functionally.

James

Geez, why I respond to this stuff is beyond me, I need help.........lol

[Green Cloud]

Sihing I'm not specifically talking just about wing chung all styles have gaps in there fighting. I'm just basing my argument on what I see from Wing chun practitioners at tourneys. Tournaments are not necesarally a represantation of wing chun on a whole, since I have also run across very good wing chun people. To be honest most of these guys also had various MA backrounds and in many cases used wing chung as a base for there fighting but also reverted to other fighting theory's.

Closing the gap is a very important issue that I feel the majority of win chun practitioners often avoid dealing with . I just think for most people it's a matter of preference. Even when it comes to styles like Bjiu jtsu wich is very effective tend to avoid the issue of stand up some guys do well closing the gap others just get knocked out while they try to close the gap by shooting in.

Most of us get too comfortable in the theory or range of our prospective style.

greencloud.net

[sihing]

Sihing I'm not specifically talking just about wing chung all styles have gaps in there fighting. I'm just basing my argument on what I see from Wing chun practitioners at tourneys. Tournaments are not necesarally a represantation of wing chun on a whole, since I have also run across very good wing chun people. To be honest most of these guys also had various MA backrounds and in many cases used wing chung as a base for there fighting but also reverted to other fighting theory's.

Closing the gap is a very important issue that I feel the majority of win chun practitioners often avoid dealing with . I just think for most people it's a matter of preference. Even when it comes to styles like Bjiu jtsu wich is very effective tend to avoid the issue of stand up some guys do well closing the gap others just get knocked out while they try to close the gap by shooting in.

Most of us get too comfortable in the theory or range of our prospective style.

greencloud.net

Closing the gap is a competition thing really. On the street, when someone wants to kick your A$$, you won't have to worry about "closing the gap" as the dude will be in your face. Since WC has nothing to do with Competitions, it is like comparing apples to Bananas...But just so you know there are things learned for "closing the gap" in WC, but this is only one man's opinion....Whatta I know ah?

James

[Green Cloud]

Once again Sihing, el gwapo is no match for your superior intelect. But I am still basing my opinion from tournaments not street fighting, I thought I was clear about that.

Here is a story, I was in my kwoon one day basicaly doing what I'm doing now wasting my time on this forum. Any way a young swarthy guy walks in with an attitude.

As I always do I asked the kid If there was anything I could do for him or any questions I can answere for him. The guy in a very frustrated way told me that he moved from the city to the Island and that he couldn't find a descent studio to train in.

My reponse was really where did you train before?? Turns out it was a very reputable BJ school. and he was frustated on how many paper tiger schools he had walked into. Looked aroung my school and noticed the professional set up, that and that my school is in a mall and responded. " huh youre probably a paper tiger too.

Of course I took offense and invited him to try me out on the mat. As I always do out of respect I took a bow. Mid bow he shot in toward my legs. Well being that he was a beefy young lad I imediatly responded with a pow choi( cannon punch). This tech is a long arm tech wich is used to keep an opponent at bay.

Well it was my lucky day, I caught him square under the chin and it was lights out.

My point is that if he maybe used a kick to close the gap he may have gotten me to the ground.

Now that was a real fight even though it wasn't in the street. At a recent long Island Kung fu tournament, I watched students of mine that actually trained for a long time and went to onother school to do wing chun. These guys entered the continuous sparring divisions using their newly developed wing chung skills and they got tooled. I don't think there was one guy from the various wing chung scools that won in the sparring.

If you don't believe me ask Pedro Yee cepero from Yees hung ga, he was the center ref.

The fact is that people stay with there styles because of preference and comfortability, regardless of the gaps that are inherent in their style.

[Lindley]

From a Sifu's perspective, having sparring matches against other schools/styles is all in presentation. Although sparring is not for everyone, school owners/Sifus (should) acknowledge that there are students who wish to test their "skills" in a dynamic environment. Facing someone from another style is an honest method to give you that "experience" against someone with a different set of techniques and ideas. It must be clear that this is not a test of Wing Chun against their style, your school against their school, your lineage against their lineage and so on. When I approach other school owners, I make this very clear. It is also important that everyone learns from the experience, hence we have one ring area and everyone watches a single match. Our intention is not to beat up the other group nor to pick winners and losers. It is to bring back the experience and look into what when wrong and what went right and see how to use the Kung Fu training to help the weak areas.
I have found this to be very good for my guys who want to spar. However, I also find it difficult for other schools to understand this concept. Traditional styles generally see it as a threat, as a blow to their ego if they do not do so well. Ironically, my point of view is that my guys learn MORE if they don't do so well. We video tape and review these sessions as well.
If there is no one to spar with, then it is difficult to spar outside your school. One should practice your kung fu more. Use the sparring as a gauge, come back to it after practicing a lot of Kung fu. Our Kung Fu offers you tools, like Chi Sao, to slow down and analyze many aspects of fighting.
Another thing to consider amongst schools is the insurance issues. This is why I feel that sparring, with students wearing protection gear, has it's purpose. My advice as the best way to prepare for "real life" situations is to become more confident in your abilities, play more Kung Fu so it becomes instinctive - no thinking. Sparring will help give you the experience to over come the "fears" of engaging with an unknown entity. However, the "life and death" aspect to a street fight is very difficult, if not impossible, to create in the kwoon. However, one must develop a warrior mentality, taking on the concept to not fear death but to put forth all they can be in a serious situation. The out come will always be the out come, as the truth will always be the truth.
Ving Tsun Kung Fu is a complete system. Those who reach the higher levels will understand and acknowledge this concept. It is the individual who strives for this completion, as Ving Tsun concepts are in everything.

[Lindley]

James' post about ranges and style completeness is on target. He points out how the true study of Ving Tsun (and should be of ALL martial arts) should not be limited. And that it is not the art that creates the limits, but the individual.

Just read Green Cloud's experience post. Unfortunately, many people are turned off by the rules in tournaments. And, these are often disorganized. Although I believe tournaments have their value, I can understand this. However, this also brings the less talented to the center stage. There are many, many Wing Chun schools. Don't judge Wing Chun by what you see in these tournaments unless you see something good. And when you do, you will know it. As for the BJJ guy, I would not be surprised if he was a spy. It's good to hear that Green Cloud could flow with the moment and defend himself effortlessly.

[Lindley]

We have sparred against a couple of Karate (Kenpo based) schools, another Wing Chun School, and a couple of Kung Fu groups. We enjoyed most matches except one of the Kung Fu groups. Their style was based in Baqua and they kept running. Could not handle the directness, and most of my guys were less than 2 years. The Wing Chun group was from another lineage, but we managed to make it fun and a great experience. It was probably our toughest match because most were the "bruisers" of the school and had some prior martial arts experience. For the most part, they did not use "Wing Chun" techniques.
We are in process of trying to arrange matches against the mixed martial arts groups in the area. I am waiting for one reply and in process of arranging another.

[Green Cloud]

Just to clarify I didn't mean to single out wing chun as an incomplete style, but to make a point that in order to be a well rounded MA you have to fill in the gaps that are inherant in any one system. The problem is many of fall into the imaginary make believe world of MA. How many times have you herd I got my but handed to me in competition, but that means nothing my style is meant for the street. That's what we call Ego, that gets in the way of reality.


greencloud.net

[Lindley]

Green Cloud,

You may wish to change "in order to be a well rounded MA you have to fill in the gaps that are inherant in any one system." What are the gaps in Wing Chun? Or is the gaps in your understanding? The Sifus' teachings?
You will find that the top guys in Wing Chun always have some ****her reaching conclusions that add to the understanding of the system. Again, we must make the distinction between Wing Chun and "your Kung Fu".
If you say Wing Chun has no ground techniques or methods, then why do so many Wing Chun people get taken to the ground and find they can do well with what they know? Just because you do not learn something titled "ground techniques of Wing Chun" does not mean you cannot create ground techniques from Wing Chun principles. Many masters have done this, and this is a mistake to say that the Wing Chun system "needs" these techniques. Wing Chun has done its job if someone discovers success in an area not formerly covered by the system.
I know what you meant to say, which is true, that one must go outside "the box" to be a complete martial artist.

"Kung Fu without a system is bad kung fu. Kung fu that depends on a system is bad kung fu..."

[TenTigers]

Hey Gus, what was that BJJ guy's name? This way, when he makes his way to my school, I'll remember not to bow!:D
Of course, after the a$$whippin you gave him, he probably will stay away from Kung-Fu schools altogether. Thanx for representin' !

[Jam_master]

I am not trolling or trying to start flame war.


I am curious if you guys ever spar other styles. It seems that i only ever see you sparring with in your own style.

I took Wing Chun for about 6 months and i have respect for the style. It just wasnt my cup of tea. I always hear stuff like, " other styles cant handle our tech." General stuff like that.

So any one that is stictly a wing chun practioner, have any experiences of fighting other styles i would love to get some feed back.

Every practitioner of any style, this includes wing chun partitioners too, need to always develop familiarity to moves not normaly familiar or inherent within their own style. Wing Chun people especially, need to continually train their touch sensory perception to recognize moves and techniques outside of the confines of chi sao, such as hooks, which I now to most WC practitioners it's considered an illegal action during double hand chi sao. To that I say yes and no. Yes! as a practitioner you should be endeavoring to keep your lines tight, but if the objective of chi sao is to sense openings and to train your hands to be perceptive, your training partner is going to need to throw an occasional hook, a kick, or a grapple for your sake so you can learn to recognize these actions. The Wing chun stylist can add more range to his wc if he experiments in this way. In fact! if your a grappler or Mixed Martial artist, you can also benefit enormously by doing some form of chi sao so you can feel your opponents every move before he can finish initiating it, allowing you to perceive his every move so you can cut him off every time instead of trying to over power the guy as I've seen many do (which is not every effective tactic if you want to conserve energy).

Personally in the past I had sparred with many other people (Karate, Jiu-jitsu, kempo, teakwando, shaolin, etc) with far more experience than me, and I must say wing chun theories and applications gave me a huge advantage in dealing with almost anything they had to throw at me in spite of my lack of knowledge, sparring and practice time which they already had over me. So even if I had never practiced how to counter a spinning back kick, WC gave me enough protection to somehow counter it at the time. It's a very conservative art form. It's not fancy. It's meant to just get the job done and move on. Very straight forward! It's definitely an old mans kung fu! Meaning there's a lot of wisdom behind it!

Later!

[Green Cloud]

Actualy after he came to, he asked ahh did I take you to the ground?? I said yea sure kid. He wanted to join after that but I sugested that he might be more comfortable at kioto jiu jitsu, a local Gracie school. I just didn't feel like having the entire clan after me if you know what I mean. I made sure we parted on good terms.

[Avelardo]

Actualy after he came to, he asked ahh did I take you to the ground?? I said yea sure kid. He wanted to join after that but I sugested that he might be more comfortable at kioto jiu jitsu, a local Gracie school. I just didn't feel like having the entire clan after me if you know what I mean. I made sure we parted on good terms.

A properly trained BJJ student would have used kicks and punches to close the gap to initiate the takedown. The BJJ takedown is our weak link and often overlooked in training but there's a proper way in executing the takedown. If it is done wrong, you can get knocked out. In your case, you avoided the takedown and knocked him out. He deserved what he got for going for a cheapshot takedown.

[ChangHFY]

Hi, emerald phoenix. I have studied both Ip Man Ving Tsun and Qi Xing Tang Lang Pai. I considered it to be great, thinking outside of my own style. So one thing to remember its always a good idea to venture out of your own four walls, just as you have done. And search around for systems that will address all ranges of combat. But to get back to the point, at the Wing Chun school I attended. We would regularly have people from different systems that we would spar from medium to occasionally full contact. And find out what we were missing in our fighting approach, one thing that helped was alot of us were already from different styles, or were studying different styles so fighting different styles was nothing new. But now im studying Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen. I consider it exceptionally beneficial, it doesnt address the particular system that were fighting but it addresses the realms of time, space and energy for the purpose of fighting.
So instead of thinking that the guy your fighting is a persay Tae Kwon Do guy. Then that means to combat him ill have to learn Tae Kwon Do, that kind of thinking is wrong which means that for as many people as you were to fight you would have to learn all their styles in order to fight that particular person.
In Hung Fa Yi they use the Saam Mo Kiu approach along with the principle of time, space and energy. with the ranges of combat, which is exceptionally beneficial for people that may participate in full contact fights, etc... But that just my thought.
Its interesting hearing everyone elses. Anyways i babbled on to much.



take care,
zai jian

[Jam_master]

[QUOTE=So instead of thinking that the guy your fighting is a persay Tae Kwon Do guy. Then that means to combat him ill have to learn Tae Kwon Do, that kind of thinking is wrong which means that for as many people as you were to fight you would have to learn all their styles in order to fight that particular person.
In Hung Fa Yi they use the Saam Mo Kiu approach along with the principle of time, space and energy. with the ranges of combat, which is exceptionally beneficial for people that may participate in full contact fights, etc... But that just my thought.
Its interesting hearing everyone elses. Anyways i babbled on to much.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more Chang. I've personally have always beleived that if you approach the fight game as a problem to be solved, that wing chun as a concept or idea,(not a style), can solve many or all problems, thus never having to resort to learning another style, (As many practicioners have done or will do - suplimenting), but rather learning to find ways within the concept ideas to deal with any issue or problem that may arise. Of course this is not to say that we as wing chun practitioners shouldn't practice familiarizing ourselves with what to do against say a spinning back kick, or a BJJ take down maneuver or any posiible hold. We should always be practicing to recognize all possible counters, and scenerios that may occur. This idea or way of practicing is also at the heart of wing chun philosophy of knowing our opennings and how to best protect it without compromising ourselves in the act. Always seeking the higher ground (Sun Tsu).

Many seem to forget that the whole idea or objective of wing chun is to be practical and economical in motion and in expendature of energy. Wing Chun is more than a mere style, it's really an adoptable concept of ideas that can easily evolve differently in appearance as ones experience progresses from one practitioner to the next within the same art or even school! Which would explain much why a lot of masters from the same teacher (ie...Yip Man), all don't look the same or teach alike. But, their core philosophy is still the same!

zai jian!!!