The demise of Taiijquan

[gazza99]

Taijiquan="supreme ultimate fist" -or boxing
What has happened to the "fist", why is tai chi now some sort of new age health dance? Even some practitioners who claim to know the martial aspects are completly ignorant of the most basic principles. ie..fa-jing, how to use internal energy to produce tangible results! Also the true dim-mak applications within the forms!
Why is most taijquan so watered down it has lost its greatness? it was once known as the "Mother of all arts" baguazhang as the brother, and xsing-i as the sister. Now it is something old people do in the park, they put on funny panjamas and try to impress each other with bits of ancient wisdom.
The martial ability I have seen displayed in 98% of the Tajiquan people throughout the USA simply deserves to be laughed at. I am not trying to down play the healing benifits in any way, but that is only part of it. It is so common for taijiquan practictioners to take up some other art(common combo=hung-gar/taiji) to learn to defend themselves, when in reality, if one learns to use taijiquan correctly they would destroy a hung-gar person...[lol-insert sh storm here](I am speaking from expieriance!!)
Well I hope this starts some intelligent conversation and not ego driven rantings!!!
-and so endeth the sermon
Gary
"Why is it, that in humans its an abortion, but in chickens, its an omlet?" -George Carlin

[count]

I guess it's relative based on what you have been taught and what you have seen. To make general statements like "tai chi chuan is the mother of the arts" and "98 percent of practitioners are simply dancing in pajamas and deserved to be laughed at", you will surely start a flame war. I wonder why people who say they practice internal arts only think of Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang or Hsing-I when there are in fact MANY other Internal Chinese Martial Arts that have been proven even better. I would rather debate about when Tai Chi Chuan became separate from kung fu at all. What is wrong with a mantis practitioner learning tai chi chuan to increase their abilities? Shouldn't bagua training include external exercise as well as internal. Isn't fighting external? I have been watching your debate in the Hung Gar thread for days and I can't understand why people don't realize that internal and external are only levels of development and not separate arts. If the point of your post is to say that there is some bad out there you will get no debate from me. But I have seen more good schools and teachers in my travels and I haven't seen to many of these "new age hippy classes". What's wrong with old people or anyone practicing just for health anyway? That is the way the majority of people in China practice. I would say more people in the US that study Tai Chi Chuan are learning it as a martial art and far fewer are only in it for their health.

[GLW]

The translation of Taijiquan as "Supreme Ultimate Fist" is actually very sloppy and gives people the wrong idea.

In Chinese, there are the equivalent of conjunctions- words that get put together and then either stay the same or take on an entirely different meaning. The german language is great at this. For example, one word for computer sort of translates, if memory serves, to Electric adding machine....partly right but not really.

Tai Ji Quan translating the characters one by one gives you the original meaning you listed.

BUT, it is actually TAIJI QUAN. Taiji is the Yin Yang - also translated as the Grand Terminus or the concept of duality, etc....

Therefore, a closer translation is Yin/Yang Fist style or the long one..."The style of Martial ARt based upon the concepts of Yin and Yang"

This idea then applies to all movements and even to applications concepts...when he is firm, you yield...when he advances you receive, when he retreats, you advance...even in the techniques, one part moves forward, one part moves back....etc...

How can anyone hope to apply Taijiquan as a fighting art if they have not first understood the concepts involved...and the concepts lead to making the body work as a organized unit.

Take a look at people doing their form...do you see body parts not moving when other parts are? Most of the time you do. This violates basic ideas...:"One part moves, all parts move, One part stops, all parts stop" You see people then do the exact same thing in partner exercises such as Tuishou...and then what they do in fighting...Sanda...is even more removed from Taijiquan. All starts with the idea and its comprehension.

[Internal Boxer]

To GLW

To yield in Taiji is to invite defeat (unless your name is Yang Lu Chan of course). The purpose of Lu (roll back) is not to yield to the attacker for he will not see the the error of his ways he will just get up again and kick the crap out of you. Do not give a scum bag an even break, if someone attacks you the purpose of Lu is to yank is arm out of his socket as you rebound with a Fa-jing strike. This is done in a very small frame, where the energy of Lu is felt by the practioner and discharged to the reciever but it may appear as nothing has happened to a casual observer

If you disagree with this then I suggest you prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Get an experienced fighter to wear boxing gloves and ask him to fight you, punching you as hard as possible in the face, Lets see if you could "Yield" to a serious barrage of jabs, hooks and straight crosses. I am sorry but I feel very strongly about this cause I have heard so many Taiji practioners say they would yield to an attack, and when we have reality tested their view they realise they know very little about the powerful fighting ability of Taiji. But I must admit I do agree that Taiji no longer is a quality fighting art. Since the people who claim that to yield, do not want to think about getting their hands dirty in confronting, a mad fu.cking ******* trying to rip your head off.

They are deluding themselves that then can defend themselves.

Therefore we must conclude that 95%of Taiji taught is crap and not does not bear any relation to fighting. And it ****es me off. Well who cares I know that what I have learnt works and thats all I give a Sh.it about.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I would say that Taijiquan is healthier today than it has been for decades. Sure most Tiaji practitioners just wave their hands around, but most boxers can't jab as well as 30 years ago and most "hard" stylists are just upper-body meatheads who flail and puff. So what, I love to watch boxing and I'm in awe of my brothers who are so willing to work up a lathering sweat. The nature of art (any art) is that it takes a lot of people going through the motions to allow the inspired few to achieve greatness.

There are more people who are practicing Taijiquan (as opposed to Taijiwu/dancing) with martial consciousness than since before WWII.

Frankly I love people who really try to hit me because they are the easiest to deal with (I've toyed with a boxer but my experience runs more to disabling Wing-Chun punchers). Why is that? because absorb is what you do to steal their post so you hit them with a cannon. To just talk about yeilding is to describe only half of a spiral. Yielding allows you to stick, and it takes a profoundly subtle body to hide once you are stuck. The fastest and most connected guy I touched (in this context) managed to get half of his second punch out after I'd deflected the first (which left him overextended), but then his spine was mine and the fusilade abruptly stopped. I have no fear of someone who just flings their meat at me.

Just because you've only ever seen "park" Taijiquan doesn't mean the art is sick. Its like judging hockey in the NHL or WHL by going down to a local rink and sneering at the teams from the meat packing plant and the sawmill.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[cagey_vet]

Hsing-i, PaKua, and TaiChi are certainly in the mainstream respect of internal arts, but to say that there are "MANY" others that are proven even better is rather subjective of you, dont you think? Who proved them better? You? Thousands of Chinese practitioners? Thousands of US students?
Rickson Gracie? :P~
You were way off base here, and blew a chance at making your point valid. I challenge you to find more complete internal styles as compared to the 3 in question. You simply cant. I bet you cant name even 3 that are anywhere close... and you said "MANY"... :) if you understood Chinese medicine and cosmology, then you would know that
there simply isnt any comparison!
I will say that I agree with other posts so far about the lack of attention to martial detail in contemporary TaiChi... its a shame, but on the other hand, at least there are those who care enough to 'give it a try' to 'improve their health'. Hey, why not...
So is it their fault that they are ignorant of the real essence of internal arts?
No, I dont think so. Its on the teachers and students of the arts to make sure they are handed over in the way they were meant.
Another point: PaKua -does- have external training. At least the way -my- teacher teaches it. I thought that was sort of strange of you to say.
And to Kevin Wallbridge:
Dude that is HILARIOUS^!@$! "I have no fear of of someone who just flings their meat at me."
That paints the funniest picture :) Thanks for the laugh.

[GLW]

Depends entirely upon your definition of YIELD.

To yield is NOT to collapse. It can be interpretted (As I do) that it is to NOT go foce to force but rather redirect, lead to where you wish the person to go...do not fight their force but add a bit of your own to make the person do what you wish..and above all to not allow the other person to interrupt or disrupt your structure.

Sorry but yield in the sense you are talking IS bad...in the sense I am talking is more like inviting him in on your terms.

As for the rest of your post...I agree.

Yielding to a punch in the definition I give does not mean absorbing it...how foolish. It may mean intercepting it with one side of the body like an arm doing a redirecting block while attacking with the other side of the body ...hopefully borrowing the power from the opponent and directing it into your attack....harder to do but it DOES work.

By the way, don't assume. I HAVE used just these approaches in working with psychiatric patients out of control. They are fast, mean, and very dangerous, while as a technician, I could NOT damage them. The "Yield" I employed often ended up with them thrown into a wall, backwards, or immobilized on the floor or against a wall. Trust me, they WERE trying to do damage.

Also, I said nothing about confronting. Taijiquan must have active as well as passive - agressive as well as non-aggressive. At no time would I NOT take the attack if I knew the fight was there and the opportunity presented itself.

But, I also agree with you that people who think that you can do this without learning through pain and getting hit in training...and in reality...and I mean hit hard...are delusional. Fighting can be interesting but never pain free...it is also quite messy.

By the way, try to lose some of that anger. If you truly do not care about those others...let them go. There is truly nothing you can do about wimpy Taijiquan folks....they come and go.

If you teach, they will show up at your door, ask questions, and then tell you how you are not supposed to work out hard or sweat in Taijiquan....after HOW MANY years of study can they say this...:)

In the words of my teacher - "Don't pursue this"

[count]

Six harmonies eight methods (Liu Ho Pa Fa)
Word Gate Boxing (Zimen)
Natural Boxing (Ziranmen)

I heard a good story at a seminar this week about a Ziranmen master, Won Ni Sen. Won I-Sen was sent to challenge Yang Cheng Fu. He went to enroll in his class but said he wanted to try it first. As soon as they touched Yang punched and Won I-Sen chopped his arm down and threw him to the ground. Supposedly even though Yang had lost, his poularity grew because he had fought with Won I-Sen who had a strong reputation.

Wah Lun Choi teaches Liu Ho Pa Fa in the US. You can read a little about his fighting record at his website. (http://www.liuhopafa.com/)

Word gate boxing seems to by the most complete of all the internals. But hey cagey_vet, you already have your mind made up. If you are really interested, why don't you do a little research yourself. You might find there is more out there than you thought. There are many others, would you like to start another thread. BTW, My trippin days were over probably before you were born.

If there is so much more tai chi chuan being taught for health or as dance, how come ALL the repleys to this thread are from people who seem to think they have an understanding of application and fighting? I'm sure more will follow!
¿

[Water Dragon]

Yielding is getting out of the way. It is flowing out of danger so that you may crash back. I believe boxers call it "slipping" or "bobbing and weaving" depending on what they are doing.

I HAVE used it against boxers, wrestlers, and others. You ust remember that push hands is an exercise to develop the skill. It is not representative of how the skil is used in combat.

To say that you do not yield in Taiji is just as erroneous as saying you do not blast the hell out of someone. Perhaps even more so. The fighting strategy is dependant on yielding to do the following
1. Not get hit
2. Put yourself in position to attack an open target
3. Wind yourself up so that the hit becomes an automatic release of energy.

I think that the problems come in when people assume that they should be able to do what theur teachers do. My teachers are able to use the yield as an attack. They do not need to hit back. I'm just not there. I need to counter. I do know that I can lead someone much ****her than I could 2 years ago so the model holds true.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Brad]

It's not like there were armies of Taiji Quan guys running around beating the snot out everybody in old China. The fact is that there are more people practicing Taiji Quan now, for health and self defence, than at anytime in history. As long as there's a strong interest in Taiji Quan it will survive. The rise in popularity will bring in more students, not only for the health teachers, but for those that teach it as a martial art.

[Chris McKinley]

I think what Gary's getting at is almost a rhetorical lamentation on modern U.S. perception of what Taijiquan is. While practitioners of other arts may, to varying degrees, tend toward a$$-sucking in terms of viable martial skill, nobody does it better than modern American practitioners of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji. True, not all of them actually believe that Taiji is not meant to be used for fighting, but simple acknowledgment that the art can be used for fighting skill does not a martial version make. There are far too many Yin-happy fancy-pants bullsh*t artistes yielding their asses off out there. I've seen a better balance of Yin and Yang among Shotokan practitioners.

In all seriousness, I'd put any three-month Kali student of mine (unarmed) against literally any three-year practitioner of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the United States. ANY of them. That's how much a$$ they suck. Before any propagandist decides to rebut with, "but Taiji takes ten years to fight with", I call pre-emptive "bullsh*t". It does not. One need not be a master to learn to save one's own posterior, even using Taiji.

In many arts in this country, there are teachers who have never yet been in an actual fight themselves, much less real life-or-death combat. That's neither shocking nor particularly out of sync with other countries. Still, in my experience, nowhere is that condition more true than in Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the U.S. A larger percentage (relatively) of instructors of Taiji are women. So far, this is neither a good nor bad thing. However, statistically, women are less likely to have had fight experience than men on the whole.

For normal social concerns, this might be considered a preferred status. But we're not talking normal social concerns, we're talking about when normal social constraints and decorum break down and physical hostilities are involved. There may be some very good dance teachers who have never danced a step in their lives, but no one would deny that having actually gotten out on the dance floor and boogied a time or two oneself presents a definite advantage when trying to teach others, both in viability and credibility. Otherwise, it's much akin to someone teaching driver's ed. out of a textbook, having never actually themselves gotten around to driving a car before.

There is an intellectually dishonest and short-sighted argument to be made that these so-called buttmonkey Taiji instructors aren't claiming to offer real combat skills to their students, so no fraud is being perpetrated. That ignores the fact that Taiji is a combat art, first and foremost! One might argue that there are some good teachers out there, in various arts, who have never actually "had to use their skills" before. Groovy. All right. But how does anyone actually KNOW that what they are teaching is valid in real combat? Someone, perhaps one of their students, has to have actually used it him/herself in a real encounter. Until then, one can't truly be sure.

Before victims of America's simplistic bipolar extremism argument culture get their panties in a bunch....NO....I'm not advocating getting into fights just to lend credibility to one's teaching status. I hate thuggery no matter who perpetrates it. However, unless one is very clear that one is offering skills in sport or cultural pursuits with no claims of viability in real combat, it is ethically questionable to engender the trust of students to a degree that they rely on one's teaching for their or their children's very lives in a real attack without having personally used such skill oneself.

My advice to those who haven't had ANY combat experience themselves? Stay a student. But Chris, what about people you meet whom you want to have your knowledge and skills? Become their Sigung and send them along to your teacher.

Bottom line...I have no sympathy for the wimps and limp-dingled flakes who are misrepresenting a really great combat art and promulgating and multiplying their own ignorance. Find out what the hell you are studying, people. It's not as if the information isn't out there. And stop wearing multi-colored shiny satin Mandarin pajamas. You look ridiculous to those of us who know what Taiji is.

[This message was edited by Chris McKinley on 04-20-01 at 12:41 AM.]

[Dave C.]

B]However, unless one is very clear that one is offering skills in sport or cultural pursuits with no claims of viability in real combat, it is ethically questionable to engender the trust of students to a degree that they rely on one's teaching for their or their children's very lives in a real attack without having personally used such skill oneself.[/B]

I couldn't agree more.

I also am so sick of taiji's superiority complex. If I hear one more time that "taji doesn't compete in full contact tournaments because we're above all that" I think I'll puke. When they talk about "investing in loss" I sometimes wonder if they're talking about losing their lives. If so it's a pretty accurate statement.

[cagey_vet]

Ok, I can buy Liu He Ba Fa as being close.
The other 2 I am not so sure of.
Are you sure your tripping days are over? :P

[Mr. Nemo]

"In all seriousness, I'd put any three-month Kali student of mine (unarmed) against literally any three-year practitioner of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the United States. ANY of them."

I sure hope you're exaggerating. Are you slamming Yang Cheng-fu tai chi, the people in the US, or both?

[gazza99]

Mr. Nemo,
Chris is not exaggerating at all!! And Im sure he is slamming both, and rightfully so!

-Thanks for your input chris, Unless Nietszhe gets resorected i think that will be the most intelligent post on this thread! Also the one that holds the most truth! Amen...
Gary
"The day after tommorow is the third day of the rest of your life" -George Carlin

[Internal Boxer]

Regards to yielding, listen I realise you guys are sincere in your belief. But I have yet to meet a taiji practioner who can diffuse my attack with yielding. therefore I cannot take what people say through writing it has to be demonstated and unless any of you live in the UK or planning to visit the UK then drop in on me and we can see if the yielding you believe in works. Perhaps I did not clarify what I meant by "yielding", I refer to redirecting a serious attackers committed, lighting fast punch. What I am saying is why bother, he will just hit you again, better to use the energy of the yield ie Lu (roll back) to damage his arm, using that roll back energy as a spring board to deck him.

Maybe we have our wires crossed cause arguing through writing about this stuff is about as effective as a chocolate fireguard. Completely bloody useless.

[Sam Wiley]

While I pretty much agree that Taiji should only be taught as a fighting art, I no longer really care whether or not people practice it solely for health. There are some days when I practice qigong only, and there are some days when I practice my long form solely for the health benefits. The bottom line, though, is that I learned it as a fighting art, and will teach it as a fighting art. What I do mind are those teachers who teach Taiji for fighting but teach ineffective techniques and tell their students that certain training methods and the techniques in them are for fighting when they are in fact not meant to be used that way at all. These are the people who really bug me, the ones who for instance, teach people self-defense using push hands type yielding and pushing and pulling and a few basic techniques from the form. They are the ones who will get someone hurt. Please don't tell me that in China the push hands contests are hard contact matches, I've heard it before, and I'm talking about America, where many people learned these soft esoteric push hands practices complete with leaning clear over backwards to yield, which will get you kicked in the balls at least if not totally creamed. I learned to yield a different way than I have seen many do, and I know for a fact that the way I learned works remarkably well in a fight.

I agree that in the end, they will all probably come around to the more realistic and sensible Taiji styles and give up all the crap. I have met people who practiced other styles who really like some aspect of what I do, fa-jing, greater health benefits, fighting ability, whatever. They always want to learn it or add it to what they know.

And as far as Taiji's "superiority complex," maybe the line should be stated another way. "We try to be above all that." How's that? And in any case, just because Taiji fighters don't fight in the ring doesn't mean they don't fight at all. I mean, I like to fight, I just don't feel the need to do it for ego-driven reasons.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I think we may have our wires crossed. I don't consider yielding as redirecting as much as getting the hell out the way.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Destrous9]

I would say that for new age hippy reasons or MA reasons, at least kung fu is adding to the culture climate in America, and not detracting.

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."

[Dave C.]

Sam,
You make some good points. Perhaps I overstated my position. As to the "superiority complex" I guess I just get tired of hearing my friends call bagua a primitive art. And I think you would agree that fighting in tournaments doesn't always have to be about ego. Instead it might be the best way for someone to gain some fighting experience. In fact, I would expect my ego to be deflated somewhat afterwards. :)

[les paul]

Great post Gary!!!


Chris Mckinley: I bow and I am humbled by your masterful response.


Internal Boxer Give’m hell!!!!!!!!


I live in the Midwest "Michigan to be exact” I once learned the 108 long form under a major disciple of Yang Zhen Dao. I have never been more disappointed in a school or a teacher. After learning the form I was shocked when I found out that there was no more! She only taught push hands at seminars. I once got to see her leading students at a demonstration. Again a complete joke!!! Swords were clanging of the ground; people were tripping (probably because most of her students were fat slobs!!!) Their push hands were literally choreographed.

18 years of Xingyiquan is hard to break, especially the stutter step, once while in class I performed Pao quan instead of fan through back. She had no idea what she was looking at! She tried to admonish me about the stutter step. I just look at her in disbelief.

Since Yang Zhen Dao is the Linage holder of "Yang family style", and her direct teacher (her Sifu) I seriously question his or the grandson’s gung fu.


Tai Chi Magazine should be enough proof that Gary, Internal Boxer and Chris are on target. When is the last time you seen anyone in that magazine look like they could actually defend himself or herself

I follow the Mike Sigman philosophy to internal arts. He has been exposing scam artists for years. Hell, anyone can and breathe out their nose and wave their hands in the air.

The question is can you defend yourself! and are you fit/in shape "in the mind and the body!!!!" Notice that I didn't say fight. I'm an extremely strong fighter and if I beat somebody in some sort of contest, that doesn't mean they don't know a martial art or that their style is somehow inferior to mine. If you can defend yourself and are fit in the mind and body, then you know a martial art.(might not have mastered it yet, but that's why you study forever and a day)

However, if your overweight, have no stamina, can't balance on one leg, and have little or no experience learning how to defend yourself, but think your being taught some art and the teacher is always telling you it takes 10 years to even start to master, then you got a problem.

Unfortunately, I think I just described your average Taichi Chuan stylist.

Hopefully this last statement someday will be put into question.

Paul
Michigan.

[Anarcho]

"And stop wearing multi-colored shiny satin Mandarin pajamas. You look ridiculous to those of us who know what Taiji is."

Hey, don't knock the PJs. I don't study Taiji, but I've always thought they looked kinda cool. Better than a gi, anyway.

[Mr. Nemo]

Okay, I get your point that most US Yang Cheng-fu tai chi guys can't fight for sh!t.

But to say that your three-month Kali students could take ANY three year Yang Cheng-fu student in the US is what I believe are called "fightin' words."

Do you really think this?

[Braden]

Chen is completely external. Wu blatantly violates all the classics. Sun studied for one month and then randomly mixed in smut from other arts.

'nuff said.

[Chris McKinley]

Yes, Mr. Nemo,

I really think this....exactly the way I phrased it, too. And to quote from Braden, rather recently, "<Braden> "Chen is external. Wu leans forward. Sun is too mixed up with smut from other arts, plus he only studied for a month and was a weenie." His posted version was cleaned up just a bit LOL.

[gazza99]

Amen...
I was going to avoid being so mean, but well, the truth hurts!!!!

-and a voice rang from the heavens....
"Bother the weak" -George Carlin..(he was talking about you Mr. Nemo)

[dingo]

Hey Braden, Chris, please tell me you're joking, right? "Chen is external, Wu violates the classics..." Jeeez! Are you going to go up to Chen Xiao Wang or Chen Qing Zhou and tell them that? Tell me about it if you do it! :D

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Chen is completely external. Wu blatantly violates all the classics. Sun studied for one month and then randomly mixed in smut from other arts.

'nuff said. [/quote]

How can you argue with that? You must be kidding?!?! Who are you and what have you done with braden????? Have you ever learned anything about Chen style Tai Chi Chuan? It is tai chi at it's purest form. Sun style may sway from the classics due to the fact that Sun Lu Tang incorporated his Bagua and Hsing-I but his style can hardly be considered smut. I'm not so sure about Wu style (still making up my mind) but from what I have seen, it seems to follow tai chi principals closely. I must know, how many high level practitioners of these styles have you fought to come up with these "off the wall" assertions? To keep this on topic, I have seen more bad Yang style being done than any Chen, Sun or Wu. And I have seen more good Tai Chi Chuan from Chen practitioners than any style. If you want to see the combative side of tai chi chuan look to Chen style applications. Maybe more brutal and hard hitting but certainly not external. Chen style puts more emphasis on Chan Su Jin and Fa Jing than any other style of tai chi chuan. Are these characteristics of an external style? Didn't Yang Lu Chan learn tai chi from the Chen family in the first place? AND DON'T YOU EVER CALL BAGUA SMUT!

[Water Dragon]

May I ask you a question? ;)
Count, where did you learn Word Boxing ?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[count]

Our class had a visit and impromtu lecture from a man named Joe Kao. He studied from Won I-Sen himself. I have seldom seen such a display of internal skills from the older masters. I have been doing some research and I can not understand why so little is known about this style.It is truely a scholarly style and a sight to behold. I think this would be a topic for another thread but I brought this up here because one of the other posters did not understand there is more to internal fighting than Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing-I and Bagua! ;)

[Mr. Nemo]

"Yes, Mr. Nemo,

I really think this....exactly the way I phrased it, too. And to quote from Braden, rather recently, " "Chen is external. Wu leans forward. Sun is too mixed up with smut from other arts, plus he only studied for a month and was a weenie." His posted version was cleaned up just a bit LOL."

A couple of questions. First, if Yang style just sucks, Chen is external, Wu leans forward, and Sun is "smut," what style do you practice? It sounds like you practice some style of tai chi. I'm just curious, because it's not in your profile.

Secondly - Ok, so you stand by your "fightin' words." Now I've only taken Yang style for about three months myself last summer before moving to LA, and since then I've been practicing on my own. So all told I've been doing Yang style for almost a year, and most of that time without instruction.

I think I could take one of your three-month kali students, and with two additional years under my belt, I'd think that even more. Now, I understand you probably aren't going to fly one of your students out here to LA just for me, so this isn't really a challenge. But since I study Yang Cheng-fu tai chi and like it, when you slam Yang style you're slamming me. When you say Yang stylists have no fighting ability, I take that personally. I'm sure Chen, Sun, and Wu stylists feel the same way.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Braden, I'm going ot be in the Kingston Ontario area in the summer, perhaps you'd like to see some internal Chen style. I'll actually be there studying Yin Fu Bagua with Eric Tuttle, but we'll also be working on Chen. After all, internal doesn't mean "without cannons," otherwise no-one would ever have considered Xingyi to be internal. (btw this is an invitation not a challenge)

As for the rest of the discussion, Internal Boxer, no offence to your country but I have never heard any discussion of the great Taijiquan training available in Britain. In fact I would go so far as to say that Britain is known as something of a backwater when it comes to Internal martial arts in general. Please inform me of what high level teachers of the big three (Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua) are there. What Chinese "living treasures" are there? Have you ever been to China or seen any high level practitioners outside your own community?

I don't say this to be disrespectful, but the way you talk about punching suggests to me that you actually don't have a sophisticated understanding of power expressions. All you have talked about is "lightning fast" punches. The fastest punch is the one that is delivered from the point of contact.

What you describe seems to be long-power which is the lowest level of hitting. A weapon is launched from long range with the aim of intercepting a target on the opponent's body. It is not physically possible to strike this way without telegraphing the movement. Before the hit lands the body profile will change to a degree that anyone can see (or be trained to see in an afternoon).

Have you never heard of short power? Bruce Lee did not invent the one inch punch, its an old idea. With long power the full potential of expression of kinetic force is a narrow window that can be jammed short or drawn to hyperextension, and this can extremely difficult for the striker to react to because of the intent it takes to fire the "lightning fast" long power expression.

If instead of sniping from long range you touch the target area (this can be done quite slowly and softly), then connect the body internally from foot to fist you have a "lightning fast" hit that doesn't rely on hoping that the target area on the opponent will still be there when the hit reaches its range of maximum power.

So how do you set up short-power hits and disrupt long power-hits?

One of the key aspects of internal martial arts, and Taijiquan in particular, is the focus on mid-range grappling. To see this concept: reach out ot full extension (not too powerful, not much potential expression left as energy can only come back in), press your hands to your body (some potential to expand, but you could still be sealed in), finally round your arms away from the body but not fully extended (here you have the most power and possiblity to change).

If you can control the middle range you can keep the fast strikers from landing long-power shots and most importantly keep them from recovering to throw another. As well, it is in this range that you can exploit weaknesses in the opponent's structure to disable their strength on the one-hand and to deliver short-power hits into their unbalanced body on the other.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Water Dragon]

Kevin, are you there yet? I know what you're talking about but have only seen it twice. All I know is, if you got THAT, you da man!!!

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Chris McKinley]

The jig is up, count,

I, and Braden, I might add, was pulling the forum's collective leg. I'm never that categorically dismissive in such a blatantly ignorant way. Besides, I like Sung.

Mr. Nemo,

Perhaps you could, perhaps you couldn't. While there are always individual exceptions to things, I still stand by my claim exactly as worded. To be candid, it isn't necessarily a fair match. Taiji is known for its longer than usual learning curve, while Kali is equally known for having one of the shortest. In the very short term, i.e., 3 months to 3 yrs., Kali is likely to have a very distinct advantage over MOST styles, whatever their origin, all other factors being equal. Other arts in that category would include Wing Chun, the various Silats, a few of the modern "reality"-based systems, and others. Beyond the shorter term, it might be anyone's guess, as all the learning curved tend to catch up with one another.

Still though, I feel very comfortable, perhaps even conservative, about matching a 3-month Kali student against a 3-year Yang Cheng-fu stylist in terms of real combat ability. And yes, I'm fully aware of the implications of such a statement regarding the fighting abilities of students of Yang Cheng-fu style. It is uniformly pathetic, especially given what it could/should be, considering the art's real potential.

That's of course not the fault of the students, per se. The instruction is uniformly dismal regarding actual fighting applications....that is, when you even GET fighting applications from Yang Cheng-fu Taiji instructors.

[Braden]

Sorry guys, I was, of course, joking. :)

Frustration over school and frustration over martial arts bickering collided and formed a smarmy comment; my bad.

The fact is, I really don't get the bickering that goes on.

Picture for a moment that you lived a couple hundred years ago, and you studied some art under a master for ten years. Then life calls and you go out and venture to a distant city. One day in the city's park you see a group of strangers practicing what is clearly your art! Sure, some of the postures are a bit different, the training methods aren't the same, the form is in a bit of a different order, but it's clearly your art!

How would you react? Maybe it's my deep-seated idealism talking, but I'm convinced that just about everyone would be like a kid in a candy store.

Now let's say you even had some reason to believe what they were practicing was somehow flawed. Maybe your teacher told you how 8 generations ago his ancestral teacher taught their ancestral teacher, but taught them a few lies because he didn't like the cut of their jib.

How would you react then? Would you dismiss what they do? Or would you figure that, no matter what they were given, there was bound to be at least one person in eight generations who had some amount of talent and some amount of work ethic and that learnt something useful, even from a flawed source. Would you be interested in that "something useful"? Again, call me idealistic, but I really think most people would.

Why is it so different on the internet then? We have this incredible tool at our disposal, and for some reason it infects everyone with "if you don't do it the way I do, you have nothing to offer."

Truly frustrating. ;p

I apologize to those who took me seriously, heh. We all get in wierd moods, eh?

Kevin - heh, sorry for freaking you out. My teacher speaks favorably of Mr. Tuttle; I hope you enjoy your training with him. There's actually study groups under Joseph Chen and Li Lai Ren here in town that I'm sure are doing presentable Chen style; I've checked out some of the latter's stuff allready. At some point in the reasonably near future I'll be moving out to your end of the country (to work at the Riverview Psychiatric in Vancouver). You can bet I'll get around to pestering you and a couple others. I'm really looking forward to seeing Yang Gou-Tai's bagua. I hear great things about him.

[count]

Now there's the braden we all know and love.
;)

[Sam Wiley]

Actually, if I saw someone in the park practicing my art incorrectly, I would speak with them and try and give them what they were missing or correct what they had wrong. Just because that guy so long ago may have been taught incorrecty, does not mean that those people today do not deserve the real thing. I think that there is a very good chance that at least a few people who are really into it may have picked up something of serious value from practicing it incorrectly or by practicing an incomplete system, but just think about what they could learn and how far they could go with the same attitude and the real, complete system.

The problem with something like that is getting them to accept what you have to offer without offending them. It would be wrong to walk into a class session and tell the teacher he's doing it wrong, just as it would be wrong with telling the students in either public or private that they are doing it wrong, you know better, and trying to correct them slyly. You would have to lead the teacher into learning the correct stuff or learning something extra so that he would correct his own students.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Water Dragon]

Hey , that's cool. We do something like that too. We do it like this because....

Why do you do it that way?

Have a sincere heart and you can both learn something :D

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Internal Boxer]

Kevin, Do not worry mind friend, I realise as far as UK quality internal martial artists you are completely ignorant, it is not your fault, and I can never get upset by ignorant people. There are many quality teachers here in the UK. Steve Reilly, Bill Barnes, Dave Nicholson, Robert Poynton, Jim Uglow (who regularly goes to China to train with the Yang family) are to name a few. I have trained under most of these people, and I am a WTBA instructor myself, so to insult Erle (who comes here to teach), since he is not a “living Chinese treasure” really does highlight your bewildering outlook. It is not a good idea to insult the British instructors, as one may drop in and pay you a visit. A lot of Americans seem to have a quiet perception of England. Sadly this could not be further from the truth, no guns in this country means hand to hand violence here is common place in the city, knives, bottles, bricks, whatever. I live in the north of england, and I remeber a quote from a book by Ranulph Fiennes who was an SAS officer, who noted that street fighting was practically a sport in the North. By this he was refering to the mental acceptance of northerners attitude that we have seen and been involved with so many bar or street fights in Manchester, that it is ingrained in our mentality that we become de-sensitised to it.

Yes Fa-jing is known as inch energy as the power can be discharged, with no distance, every attacking portion of your body can deliver the energy, originating from your centre and flowing outwards like a tidal wave, and it is not limited to a punch, the centrifugal force generated by the waist always creates a recoil which results in a continued barrage of strikes which to the casual eye may look like one attack. What I always find is that there are many people out there who can be very articulate about the internal arts, but sadly have little internal power, and cannot practice what they preach. And I do not know if you are a “Ray”, because we have to take what you say at face value. Before you begin to get wrapped up in the superiority complex of Taiji. I suggest you go down to your local boxing gym, and see if you can yield to a boxers jab. Which skilful boxers employ the some of the tendon mechanics as inch energy, but with obviously much less power than a high level internal artist. Although a powerful boxer jab has the ability to knock someone out, and if he is a good boxer he will not telegraph upper cuts, hooks or straight crosses. So before you construct a reply, please test your “yield” against someone who will not play the game, but against a very skilled boxer who has the intention of knocking your head off, if you cannot find anyone, I would be more than happy to do this, you are more than welcome to come across the pond, and we can go for a beer down town, where you can test your yield for real. We could also go and see some of those “backwater” instructors who would no doubt like to try out your Yield.

[cagey_vet]

anyways, i didnt say there any other, or ANYMORE to the internal styles other then Tai Chi Bagua or Hsing-i.
i said you wouldnt be able to find any more COMPLETE then those 3.
sheesh, didnt your teacher teach you how to quote somebody correctly?!

ok, i posted this with a text browser, so i apologize for any inconsistencies, except for counts ;)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Internal Boxer, I'm very glad to stand corrected as to the state of internal arts in Britain. Clearly I was wrong, thank you. I was hoping that you would be able to enlighten me. Um... why then don't you go one of those skilled people and see if they can absorb a jab?

Three questions. 1) What is WTBA? 2) Who is Erle that I am supposed to have insulted? Mr Montaigue perhaps? I really didn't notice that was actually singling anyone out. When I met him in 1993 I found him to be powerful if a bit strange (of course it may just have been the difference between Australian and Canadian culture). I certainly disagree with some of his understanding of Chinese history but I've never thought to criticize his martial arts. 3) What is a "Ray?"

By the way, if you will notice, I'm not an American and I don't live in the USA. We have gun control here. I live in logging and mining country, so I'm sure that you can appreciate the sort of "tough guys" I get to see all of the time.

As to your suggestion of going to see a boxer, I have done just that for the past two mornings. I admit that the gentleman that I worked out with was not world class, but he still never got a second punch launched after his initial jab failed.

You can accuse me of being all mouth, but you may notice (unlike yourself I have to say), that I actually use my real name here. I'm not hiding anything. If I do speculate about something beyond my abilities I say so clearly. My understanding of the principles of boxing come out of my experience. I'm also a pragmatic person (I am a degree holding scientist after all) and doubt anything in martial arts mythology that I have not done or felt. So I have tested my yield and still I don't see how my partner could have helped but be obvious about his intent.

Anyone from Britain, or anyone else for that matter, who wants to come and see me and give me guidance will be welcome. Just don't beat me up too bad. I have a room for them to stay in, or there are some nice B&B's in town. The mountains are beautiful at all times of the year. Hot springs are near by and in winter the skiing is awesome with the snowpack exceeding 6 meters in a wet year. If I get to Britain again any time soon I'll come by for that pint and I'll gladly shake your hand.

Braden, you cheeky *******, now I feel silly. You'll like Yang Guotai, he is a fiend for people feeling the jings.

Thanks Water Dragon, bu gan dang.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[count]

Didn't I fulfill your criteria for 3 internal Chinese systems as complete or more. If not, start another thread or e-mail me directly and maybe I can show you where they fill the bill. Anyway, tell me where in ANY of my posts I have quoted you except to i nform you that my trippen and pipen days are long since over.

What amazes me about this thread is that so many seem to be of the opinion that their teacher is the only one that teaches the real thing and all others are just getting some watered down version of applications or no applications at all. I for one have been with 3 teachers in the past 20 years who were lineage holders or learned from lineage keepers in their styles. Each one had methods of teaching that were consistant across the board. None of them ever said another teacher is wrong. None of them ever implied that they were privy to some mysterious formula or method that would transform someone into an unbeatable fighter. All of them taught Tai Chi Chuan the same way. Hard work and practice. Am I just incredibly lucky that I have never met up with these ignorant instructors and practitioners? Maybe if people are looking for something they will find it. I still say there is more good stuff being taught in the US than is being implied here. That goes for Great Britan too..

[Internal Boxer]

WTBA is the World Taiji Boxing Association. My name is Matt Delaney, if you do not believe me authentic, then e-mail Erle Montaigue to cross check if I am a WTBA Instructor. I am sorry mate but I do not believe that to yield to a skilled fighter, that you are able to redirect the force and then think he will see the error of his ways, he will simply keep attacking you. If this was an effective defensive measure then a hell of a lot of Boxers would be learning Taiji, and you would be showing your skills to the like of Mr Tyson, to show how good you are at diffusing and redirecting his Iron punch. Mass TV coverage would then insue of you redirecting the punches of boxers. if you are so convinced that it works then I will look forward to seeing you on the next Ulitmate Fighting Championship. Where all the fighters would simply bounce off your superior powerful yield, and be thrown around like rag dolls.

There is a type of Energy in Taiji called Lu, Roll back which together with a V step and the force applied is redirected, not because he will not be redirected away, there is no yield the roll back is used to damage his arm, either bones or tendons. The waist has stored the attacking energy then to bounce back like a giant spring to blast the attacker. If you try to yield to a gang of lads attacking you then you wour wife will be a widow. Train Taiji for what it is a very effective fighting system. Do you seriously think that in ancient china when a mans loved ones lives were at stake that he would Yield to attackers. No he would kill them. I heard of a story of Yang Cheng Fu who at Dawn came out of his regular brothel, he was confronted by three swordsmen. Cheng Fu turned to them and said do you see that over there, he was pointing to the sunrise, he said that is the last one you will ever see, and killed them. This stuff is not about playing, it is about seriously maiming people, that is what Taiji was designed for, where every strike is a dim-mak strike, to kill with one finger not to bloody yield. ;)

[Water Dragon]

Selective listening

For the last time, the purpose of yielding is to move the body out of the way of an attack, then re-direct that force back into the other guy.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics ;)

[This message was edited by Water Dragon on 04-23-01 at 02:39 PM.]

[PlasticSquirrel]

taijiquan should not be translated as the "great supreme awesome boxing that can kill anything else." if you look up the word "ultimate" in any dictionary, it will tell you that it refers to extremes, or an extreme. the taiji refers to the extreme of yin and yang.

it all depends on the teacher and the student. personally, i've heard of the levels of many of the taiji practitioners out there, and it shows a lot of depth (mostly from ones in china).

there will always be idiots out there waving their hands around, thinking that they're getting really healthy. this happens when you release something like taiji on the masses. on the other hand, there are some incredible fighters out there; probably more than there have ever been before.

"the demise of taijiquan" that you write about refers to how many people practice it. the styles have not declined at all in my opinion (yang has CHANGED a lot, but not necessarily for the worse). taijiquan is still practiced very much (probably more than most styles of gong fu), but compared to taiji practitioners, it is much smaller.

the statement about the hung gar practitioner and the taijiquan practitioner was so un-controlled, in that there are no typical teachers or students out there, and they are all different. i would dare you to go to china, though, and say that to a 3-year practitioner in chen village. :p

[RAF]

Internal Boxer

Do you learn from Erle Montaigue's teacher mmmmm Chu or something like that? I saw he was at one time living in London. That would be quite a catch to learn from your grandmaster.

I wonder what we also mean by yielding. In some systems, you can take a half step back with your rear foot which some might call yielding. However, it permits you to get a larger frame for redirection, especially regarding attacking from an angle. Timing is everything and if done correctly, the one throwing the punch, over commits, providing you with the window of opportunity for striking back.

I agree that taiji has been and if taught properly is a killing art. I saw that most clearly with my current teacher. However, many taiji techniques are found in other Northern styles. These other styles, such as baji, contain all of the jings found in taiji. My complaint (not with you) is too many taiji players get this superiority complex without the skill to back it up.

When I first signed on with my current teacher, he threw me into 8 step praying mantis along with two man fighting exercises. I hated it. I had practiced taiji for a whole 4 years and thought this was a blow off: I was wrong. Internal/external, whatever, learning basic mantis provided me with some fighting skills in a quick 6 months. That humbled me quite a bit and although I still love taiji, I came to respect training in the other styles. In good mantis, I am as relaxed in delivering a punch as I am in taiji. Also have great respect for boxers and wrestlers. In the end, there is a lot good stuff out there and a lot depends on finding the rigth teacher

[Internal Boxer]

When someone attacks you do not move out of the way, do not go back or step to the side, take a V step forward, so you are in is face but on his closed side, he will not know what has hit him as all street fighters have mental switches that will expect you to do a defensive reaction to their attack like getting out of the way, so if you attempt to yield and he has feinted an attack, you will wear the next punch because you walked into the trap he has set you. Therefore you must step forward at an angle as he will not expect it, the momentum of your step forward should add the power to your waist and discharge a fa-jing strike.

If you in a confrontation as soon as he lifts his hands, or cocks, dips his shoulder, do not wait for the attack to yield to it or move out of the way, as soon as you see a move, V step, hit him, and keep hitting until he is down. When he is down start kicking him. Do not think you will not get hit in a fight, most street fights start off in the bar (well lit) then end up on the street (dark), your vision does not have time to adjust and you can see sod all so you have to maul the ba.stard, and mostly he will have mates who will be attacking you while you are dealing with one at a time. The mentality I have in street fights is to Fu.ck the attacker up with the least damage to myself. It is pretty fu.cking hard to deal with three di.ckheads all at once, but I am still here, and they are the worse off for the confrontation.

[Water Dragon]

I agree with a lot (not all, but a lot) of what you said. I just want to know if you acknowledge what a lot of people are calling as yielding. Go ahead, use my last definition if you want. Just a yes or no answer. We definately have the right to disagree. As well as change our minds at any time. But, IS YIELDING AS I DESCRIBED IT IN MY LAST POST EFFECTIVE? yes or no, and why. Who knows maybe I will change my mind. At least I'll consider what you said first

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Internal Boxer]

I am sorry but I have yet to meet someone who can convince me that yielding is effective when in a fight. I understand that you do not agree with this. But I urge that the next time some street nutter wants to rip your head off and sh.it down your neck, see if it works. If it does then you will be happy that what you believe in works for you. I prefer to hit and maul, and I believe that is what taiji is all about and I accept there are many practioners who do not share this view.

[Water Dragon]

Not gonna let me trap you? Did you catch it? If not, give me a yes or no and I'll spring the little trap. If you caught it, cool. You get props for that ;) :D ;)

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[count]

If I understand your application it reminds me of they way we learned in Lama Crane style. Always retreat forward!

[Internal Boxer]

If you want to play games then fine - No - Happy?
I am logging off now so I will not be able to see your reply, but I will check it out later. EEEK I am so scared of your deadly words. :eek:

[devere]

Get this one ... after my girlfriend mentions I "do martial arts" the other day to some bozo in her yoga class, he tells her "ah yes ... all martial arts derive from yoga." oh the humanity...

[count]

I feel your pain...
:D :D :D

[gazza99]

Excellent posts! Im glad to see there are more of us WTBA instructors here..ie me, you , sam wiley.
Oh, no disrespect to anyone..chris,braden,and myself just wanted to get a reaction! Also sorry to Mr. Nemo, didnt mean the "weak" comment.
Kind Regards,
Gary

[Water Dragon]

The quote on yielding comes from an Erle Montague article on his website. change the word Qi for energy and read the Da Lu article. No signifigance, just having fun ;)

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[brassmonkey]

I'm starting to wonder what WTBA push hands looks like without any yielding?

[Braden]

Brassmonkey - Mr. Montaigue has put up some clips of his ideas on push hands at http://www.taijiworld.com/Free/Share.htm .

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Mr Delaney (Internal Boxer), I apologize if you were offended by my remarks. There is nothing in there that actually defames your integrity, though you are very swift to trash my own. What in my post suggests to to you that I ever considered you inauthentic? I honestly didn't know what you were talking about.

I now see that you don't understand what I am saying at all, and that is because I really haven't understood the point you are trying to make. You are criticizing Yielding as a strategy. Of course if all you are doing is yielding you are being a f***ing idiot, as that is no way to end an agressive struggle. If a Taiji practitioner has suggested to you that this is all you need I agree with your assement of the inanity of the concept.

I am talking about something completely different. Yielding is not a strategy (overall fighting approach) it is a tactic (one of the methods used when engaged). Yielding is about stealing the opponent's balance and/or their ability to control their own body. At this point there will be a 1) hit, 2) kick, 3) throw, 4) chin'na, 5) or fajing. Yielding on its own is like a high performance car without a driveable road, incomplete.

Actually Taiji is not my main art, I'm a Bagua practitioner at heart. In my experience one person is harder to deal with than three. Three people are less cautious and tend to make more errors of overcommitment. Just do something overt and nasty to the first guy and that may be all it takes. If not, at least you aren't fighting him anymore.

Having said that I'd better bow out here as you have shown no room for the idea that neutralization is physically possible, so why bother? I feel that the reason that this kind of knowledge hasn't appeared in boxing is because they are close minded to anything that is outside their immediate realm of experience, like yo... nevermind. ;)

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Internal Boxer]

Water Dragon, Erle actually holds the same opinion that in a fight, never "yield" just hit him. But I am sure in Da Lu he would not suggest you should da lu in a fight. Look at the Lu it is roll back, and what are you doing - you are damaging the attackers arm, obviously you cannot in practice but the intention is present. In a fight this energy is used in a very small frame where there is an ever so slight waist movement. Not like the taiji practioners who to yield with a massive weight shift they go far back on their back leg to redirect.


Kevin. I cannot help but think that we have our wires crossed on the definition of yield I explained this before to Water Dragon before you began your slander spree on the state of British Internal arts, look back at the earlier post. I train in push hands to recieve the attack on the back leg (cause your front leg should be empty in case he kicks) then the correct shift of weight for Lu you are slightly coming forward at an angle to their attack. The combined waist movment and weight shift alters the postion of the spine,only slightly so the attacker cannot discern what you have done only that you are somehow "not there" therefore your opponent cannot find your centre, it also puts you in the idea postion to attack as you are already in his face on his closed side, he is completely confused as he would normally expect a defensive reaction to his attack. The frustrating thing about these webs sites is that if we were to meet and demonstrate what we are discussing it would totally clear up these continous tit for tat replies, which to be honest I am completely bored to the back teeth with. If someone attacks you and you yield going on your back leg it is a weak postion to be in because you are letting him dictate your move, no doubt you will not agree to this, but I am a fundamental believer in Quad Erat Demonstrandum which is latin for watch and I will demonstrate. Which is something I cannot do tapping away on this keyboard. So I suppose we will have to differ on this one.

I also have to disagree with your belief that one attacker is harder to deal with than many, to serious hard nutters they will not be phased at all. I was in a brawl, where I gouged a di.ckheads eye out, he was screaming in agony, when his mate threw a barrage of punches, if following your belief the others would be put off So do not think you can predict what will happen in a street fight you can never afford that luxury, many of these nutters are so pumped with adrenaline that they will not think twice about ripping out your spine with at no thought to themselves, just because you practice taiji does not give you the right to win or survive the attack, it is not the taiji that is fighting it is you that is fighting. I understand that you have to write what you believe based on your experiences, so I am sure you will differ in opinion, thats fine, I cannot convince you and you cannot convince me - stalemate.

[Kaitain(UK)]

http://www.nytaichi.com/itt.htm

He's the top dog Yang family guy and he lives in the states - last time I saw him he nearly took my throat out. He was taking a seminar (well - sitting in a chair watching and getting JD to translate) -
'ever heard the sparrow squark?'
'nope' (I'm confused at this point)
he grins, and using double ward off (one hand cupping my neck, the other spiralling into my throat)
"eeeeeeearrrrrk"
He laughed.

Also for a different flavour go see Willie Lim - I've attended a few of his seminars and I was very impressed. If you can land a hit on him I shall be impressed - he's a very cool guy but man he has a temper, so don't be surprised if you get a few back :).

Likewise in the UK we have John Ding, 1st disciple of Ip Tai Tak, based in London - someone who knows what he's doing. Like a lot of the Chinese teachers though, he only teaches what he thinks people are ready for, so I wouldn't waste your time with a lot of his students since they are stuck in 'you can't push me over because I'm rooted' mentality (I did mention a smack in the mouth might get them over quickly but they didn't agree). He teaches them something, they don't practice it, so why should he show them any more?

My opinions of Erle, I'll just leave it that I've watched a few of his videos and he suffers from 'floaty' hips amongst other things - as well as terminal ego inflation. Maybe he could try reading the classics once in a while.... Sorry if it's offensive to his students - but since he spends his whole time on video telling the world why other styles are ****e I feel no remorse in stating a few opinions of my own. Apparently he learned Taiji in a mud hut (no master mentioned). He also claims to know Old Yang - I saw nothing representative of that anywhere. My opinions are formed from watching him on video - also reading a recent article in MAI where he claimed he would give someone a teaching license if they studied his videos and wrote to him. Nuff said. Not sure how his Bagua is viewed.

Last point - Tai Chi or Taiji - the Yin/Yang is also known as the Supreme Ultimate - born from nothing. Check the I-Ching. There's no difference in the translation, just different phonetic spelling. Remember 'Fist' is usually better translated as 'Boxing' or 'Fighting' in CMA names.

Yielding - I always took this to be 'where my opponent goes, I am not there' or 'what good is a thousand pounds if it has nothing to land on'. As someone else stated, if one side is yielding then the other must be going forwards, although as someone else has said, you can use the yield to build energy in the waist (as in Lui in the form).

I think it naive to train to never take a hit - sometimes the best way to close on someone is to take a hit, usually you have no choice anyway. I'm sitting here bruised all over my chest, arms and shins from pushing hands last Friday - basically issuing energy into an opening to get the feel of surging and exploding, rather than the week hand pats that we did when we learning. Working kicks into stepping is also a part of it - finding ways to break the structure of the opponent when he gives you no easy opening.

Very last point (hey, I haven't posted for a while) - I do agree that there is a shortage of good quality instructors in the UK for almost any CMA ; but that doesn't mean there aren't any - they are just hard to find. In the US there are a lot of good instructors - I think 2 out of 3 Yang family disciples are based out there (ITT and one of the sisters I think).

Chen style - about as external as my bladder. Open your eyes. Internal doesn't mean soft.

"one room, many keys"

[brassmonkey]

Its simple. Compare what your doing against the classics then against kenpo karate.

[Sam Wiley]

Erle suffers from ""terminal ego inflation?"

I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

Thank you. :D

He is actually one of the quietest, most humble men I have ever met.

Anyway, yielding is a bit different in a fight. You would never back up, nor would you use Rollback like in Da Lu, with a big movement like that. It's the same tactic, but a bit different.

One of the reasons we do things like Push Hands and Da Lu is to learn yielding at a subconcious level. We do not learn it to learn a technique, we learn it to learn body movement. In fighting, the body movement is much smaller, and we latch on and roll back to lead him in. However, we do not actually have to grab anything like in PH and Da Lu.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Kaitain(UK)]

having heard his words on video I find it hard to believe he could be humble.

yet I have never met the man so I will take it as the propogation of his business and the denigration of others' rather than any deep-seated character flaw.

"one room, many keys"

[patriot]

Erle's people are the loudest on the internet.

What's this story on Yang Chengfu and the brothel and the killing of 3 swordsmen? I've never heard of it before. Is this another fiction created by Erle's people, like the Wudang secret book and techniques etc.?

[Water Dragon]

You just gave an explanation of yielding similar to what I was taught. In addition, you pointed out the difference between the method and the usage. Bravo!!!!

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[wujidude]

England has no real fighters . . . you've got to go to Glasgow or Belfast to find a real rumble. Unless, of course, you happen to get caught in a crowd after a Manchester United game . . . ;- )

I missed the chance to cross hands with Docherty when I was in the UK. Still, I have to take my hat off (except I don't wear one) to Dan for being one of the few in Britain to attempt to maintain a martial focus for his taijiquan. Of course, I'd expect that, since he's from Glasgow.

Generally, most students or grand students of Yang Shou Chong (Zhenming)have not made much of a martial reputation for themselves. This is not to say that they don't know that side of the art, only that if they do, their abilities are not well-known (outside perhaps of a few cowed students). What is known is that a number of them (John Ding included) know skills of off-balancing and proper timing of fa-jing in cooperative tui shou. I respect Rob Poyton's viewpoints on applications issues.

We've got to remember that Yang style and its derivatives are full of charlatans and spiritual marshmallows who couldn't fight their way out of a Nordstrom's shopping bag. That should not obscure the fact that the major taiji styles all have at least a few gems who retain and can demonstrate (if not necessarily teach) martial skills.

The one exception in my experience might be Sun style, and I think that's simply because I've only met a couple of people who actively practice Sun Lutang's taijiquan, and neither were interested in the martial applications. I'd be quick to add that I think Sun and Hao styles are perhaps the most straightforwardly martial in their form and technique.

I happen to know someone who knows Mr. Wallbridge, and attests that Kevin knows whereof he speaks. I also understand what Kevin and Water Dragon have been trying to say about yield, and have in fact successfully used that principle in a "real-life" encounter with success.

I'm not sure that one can objectively state that it's "easier" to handle one determined attacker than it is to deal with multiple determined attackers, or vice-versa. Every fight (in my limited experience) has seemed totally different. Every opponent is different in level of rage, ability and agility.

As far as Erle Montaigue goes . . . will people just give him a rest? None of the Erle-bashers I've ever seen posting here or on other forums have ever crossed hands with Erle, or with any of his WTBA teachers. They nitpick about his forms or his sweeping indictments of other styles or his ramblings about his lineage and connections with Wudang. One may fairly disagree with the principle of his correspondence-enlightenment courses. But I don't think anyone can credibly criticize him if they have not crossed hands with him to see if he actually does manifest the principles of the taiji classics under pressure. Historically the most martially effective taiji tends to be ugly in appearance. Yang Banhou and his nephew Shao-hu are an example. One could talk with Nigel Sutton and his experience studying bagua with the Gao family in Beijing. The person in that group who "handled" things for the teacher had an abrupt, ugly form. I'd be willing to give Erle the benefit of the doubt as to his effectiveness. In any event, I wouldn't go around bashing the man until I'd tried his art. Erle at times tends to bash other styles, but that doesn't mean we have to fall into the same trap.

There. I think I've covered everything I wanted to. Flame on!!!!!!

[Kaitain(UK)]

the USA doesn't really have any fighters, you have to go to Mexico City or Vancouver unless you get caught in the crowd leaving a Bulls game

about as absurd as your effort :)

with regards to Erle - If people put themselves on a sugar pedestal they should expect it to collapse under them when the rain comes down. Placing yourself in such a position and making statements like that are bound to invite criticism.

"one room, many keys"

[wujidude]

I'd agree. The US doesn't have any real fighters. I personally go to Canada, where the people are much more civil about mauling you.

I have no experience with Mexico.

**** it's hard to get my tongue out of my cheek.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Mexico is choc full of bad-ass mofo's who will fight you over the size of their maggot :P

don't mess

I suppose you could always go to the ghettos of Baltimore :)

"one room, many keys"

[RAF]

You want to see good applications of fighting in baji, pi gua, and praying mantis (maybe bagua but haven't seen them). Crank up Su Yu Chang's website and order a couple of the videos. Compare them to what you do. If you think its bs, then say so. If you think is good, then learn.

His fighters have taken Muy Thai fighters. Su Yu Chang has been around the block, so check it out. He is also TCM and a gentleman. Try his seminar. Oh yeah, and let him punch a couple of times. Then you'll have a pretty good idea of what he's about. A sore chest results in fast learning and I am a fast learner

[wujidude]

RAF:

I don't think I'd need to go to Su . . . I think just messing with Tony Yang would show me a thing or two.

As far as I can tell, Kaitain and I are just teasing a little. I sure am. There are plenty of people around here on the West Coast and around Youngstown and Akron where you are who can fight. I'm not saying I'm one of them . . . but I sure do seem to attract 'em. ;- )

[RAF]

Wujidude

I just think that you can get some pretty good stuff from Su Yu Chang's tapes regarding applications and fighting. Everyone complains that Chinese martial arts don't stack up, well here is a teacher that makes it work.

Actually its pretty silly sitting here typing about martial arts applications on the internet. Hell, everyone is a fighter here, at least in type. What can I say? To sit here and argue about what to do and not do in a fight struck me as absolutely crazy. So Su Yu Chang was my last shot. We don't have any tapes regarding fighting. However, what internal boxer cites regarding going in, is what we taught guys in the ring (for points) and was a fundamental principle in praying mantis fighting. Its interesting to note, I know of one guy, fairly well, who fought in the underground circuits over the last 15 years. He died in prison last year under some really wierd circumstances. They once entered him into a pushing hands contest, and he knocked the guy down with a punch. He said he didn't care how he did it as long as he predominated. He also tried to bite the ear off a guy in a match. In the underground, he said literally no fight lasted more than 17 seconds. His philosophy was that he trained for pain and enjoyed taking the pain. He said he was willing to take 5 shots to get his one in. If he got his shot in, unlikely you would be standing. His primary strategy was to break the leg. Well, he's dead now and all the training in the world didn't save his a#$@ in prison (actually we suspect the guards hung him).

BTW, a change of the subject. Did you meet Dan Docherty? I'd like to hear more about his wu style. Did you see it? Maybe a change of topics is due. As I tell some of the younger students, Genghis Kahn is not coming tomorrow, so take your time. The sun will still be rising tomorrow on schedule.

[Esteban]

Hi Wujidude,

you wrote:

"The one exception in my experience might be Sun style, and I think that's simply because I've only met a couple of people who actively practice Sun Lutang's taijiquan, and neither were interested in the martial applications. I'd be quick to add that I think Sun and Hao styles are perhaps the most straightforwardly martial in their form and technique."

Fwiw, I feel that styles that use "active-stepping" in practice are more martial than those that don't. Unfortunately, there are few people who are interested in the martial aspects of Sun's taiji. But, since it is so common to hear people complain that the style is "tainted" with bagua and xingyi, it's hard for me to understand how Sun style could not be considered martial. Well, maybe he just included non-martial bagua or xingyi, but I guess I think differently.

Best,
Esteban

[wujidude]

RAF:

I'll trust your recommendation of Su. I'd love to see his tapes. Would you please post the URL of his website? I'd also like to get a chance to visit with you guys when I'm back in the Midwest visiting family: would you please post Master Yang's website URL? Thanks.

No, I didn't get the chance to meet Dan Docherty. All I know is what I've heard/seen second-hand. I enjoyed his book, "Complete Taijiquan." I also played/pushed with some people who knew Michael Jacques, one of Docherty's earlier students in the UK, who said he was quite good (to the extent that the student is the reflection of the teacher). What I most appreciate about Docherty's approach is what (I think is) his fairly down-to-earth approach to teaching taijiquan, with due consideration given to the martial origins of the art.

Your prison friend had a pretty direct and pragmatic attitude towards physical confrontation . . . reminiscent of xingyi or maybe tanglangquan. I'm still figuring out how to train earbiting with "whole body power," however. ;- ) Maybe Mike Tyson can help.

You're right, it is ****ed silly to sit around typing out what particular applications work well and when. I will say that I've gotten some really useful information from particular posters on specific training practices, but not so much on applications. I appreciate the humor and the tidbits on history/lineage and philosophy on this forum and others. But it does take time away from practice and the rest of life. Plus the more long-winded one is, the more prone to repetitive stress injury/carpal tunnel syndrome one gets ;- ). I need healthy fingers for ripping out the hearts of my enemies and opening bottles of beer. I'm gonna be phasing outta here.

Esteban:

I totally agree with you about the martial potential of Sun style taijiquan. I was just saying that in my limited experience with it (and Sun style is fairly rare here in the US), I hadn't encountered anyone showing or teaching the martial applications. I've heard that Tim Cartmell in Los Angeles teaches Sun style and likes it for its direct and straightforward applications. I'm not sure that he learned those applications from Sun Jianyun (with whom he studied the form), or whether he figured them out based on his previous bagua and xingyi training. But the apps are definitely there.

I'd also agree that "active stepping" lends much to Sun style . . . and I would also add, to its precursor, Hao style (if you include the follow-step within "active stepping"). People may forget that the legends of taijiquan were known for their agility: Yang Luchan, for example. The way that it is most frequently taught, Yang Cheng-fu's form is excellent for rooting, but doesn't teach much about nimbleness and footwork for evasion. If, however, the Yang style is taught with the paired form ("Sanshou" A & B), the active stepping comes in. Wu Jianquan style has a seldom-taught "fast form" in the Ma Yuehliang/Shanghai lineage, which blends stepping with fa-jing. And Chen style, which I'm currently studying, has its Er Lu, which masters execute like a drop of water on a hot greased skillet.

I know by "active stepping" you mean the agile, quick yet rooted stepping that Sun Lutang brought into from baguazhang and xingyiquan. I definitely think it has a place in good taijiquan.

Well, cheers and best wishes for good training to everyone. There's work to do.

[count]

Here is the URL to Master Su's Website. (http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/mastersu.html) He has some video posted worth the download too.*

[RAF]

Wujidude:

Your always welcome to drop buy, even follow a class or two. My guess is that you'll probably hit the baji class---they usually do a lot of two man fighting exercises but if I'm around, we will do a bunch of other things.

The guy who died in prison was one of the most interesting persons I had ever met. 5'10'' Blue, blond hair, and talked very very soft. Often people mistook him to be gay (5 kids, a couple of wives, not in his stars) and they would start to pick on him---he loved it. None lasted long.

Our webmaster has been out for the last 5 months so the web is very limited. Here is the site:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/

Don't forget about the October tournment. The dumplings and egg rolls are homemade and they sell out fast! Hopefully there will be some great seminars.

I'll soon be off to Korea so will not be back until late May. Keep in touc

[Esteban]

Hi Wujidude,

you made several points that were right on target, imo, and I wanted to address them one by one.

"I was just saying that in my limited experience with it (and Sun style is fairly rare here in the US), I hadn't encountered anyone showing or teaching the martial applications."

The same is true, afaik, everywhere in the world, and the lack of martial applications is true of much of tjq. And, often, when one sees applications of Sun style, they essentially look like "push" as sometimes seen in Yang style. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but unfortunately it ignores the footwork that --if bagua and xingyi influenced it at all-- it should obviously have. Just like most traditional CMAs, though, those details aren't just given away easily. Especially in Sun style, when taught with any martial emphasis, there's often an expectation that the student understands ('cause few Ever "master") the principles of Sun's other arts. Then, it's just easier to see the martial applications. It's not necessary to do it that way, but a lot of people just go right to Sun's taiji, just learn that, and then try to teach it.

"I've heard that Tim Cartmell in Los Angeles teaches Sun style and likes it for its direct and straightforward applications. I'm not sure that he learned those applications from Sun Jianyun (with whom he studied the form), or whether he figured them out based on his previous bagua and xingyi training. But the apps are definitely there."

Cartmell also studied shuaijiao. The very first time one raises one's arms in the Sun form is quite similar, and can be used similarly, to a basic shuaijiao movement. Hmm, maybe it'd considered something like double inside-out arm bars. FWIW. (And then, if you do xingyi, you'll understand the application of "squeeze." Combine that with the pivot and the stepping, and voila. Of course, though, the taiji principles of calm, centered, using "jing" not force, etc., etc., apply, especially in terms of just doing the form. And, doing it relaxed and without force doesn't take anything away from this (possible) application, anyway, if the technique and (most important) the coordination ("all moves as one") are there. This ain't gospel, btw, just my opinion.

"I'd also agree that "active stepping" lends much to Sun style . . . and I would also add, to its precursor, Hao style (if you include the follow-step within "active stepping")."

Right on the mark, man: the "follow step" or "half-step" is kinda important to some folks.

"People may forget that the legends of taijiquan were known for their agility: Yang Luchan, for example. The way that it is most frequently taught, Yang Cheng-fu's form is excellent for rooting, but doesn't teach much about nimbleness and footwork for evasion."

You aren't the first to say that about YCF's form. He was a great martial artist, but also a very big guy who died young. I'd argue that YCF's problem was that, being so big, he had to be extra special or else he'd be accused of just being a "big guy." Maybe some of the legends about him have been exaggerated. I don't know of a famous master whose feats haven't grown with the years. But, imo, he must have been agile for his size or else he'd been run ragged by all the great little guys that we know were also around. Anyway, the form is just training, and people get that confused, imo. That's why newcomers always seem to ask, "How can you fight so slow?"

"If, however, the Yang style is taught with the paired form ("Sanshou" A & B), the active stepping comes in."

Yes, the "88" two-man form is good to learn. But, understanding (at least one of) the possible applications should allow one to practice it with a partner --who should find the "escape" or "responding" form. "Peng, lu, ji, an" would be a good place to start.

"Wu Jianquan style has a seldom-taught "fast form" in the Ma Yuehliang/Shanghai lineage, which blends stepping with fa-jing."

According to the Shanghai school, Ma Jiangbao (Ma Yueliang and Wu Chinghua's son), taijiquan was generally practiced fast until 1912, also when the family name distinctions were made. If you can read German or get it translated, he wrote a history of tjq that you can find here http://www.wu-taichi.de/witten/hintergrund/geschichte/KAPITEL3.html


"I know by "active stepping" you mean the agile, quick yet rooted stepping that Sun Lutang brought into from baguazhang and xingyiquan. I definitely think it has a place in good taijiquan."

Oops, I guess I'm preaching to the converted.

Best,
Esteban

[wujidude]

Esteban:

I have (or had) both the German and the English translation of Ma Jiangbao's book. I gave them to my Wu style teacher.

I'm never in LA long enough to take the time to stop by Cartmell's place. I understand he's pretty good, trying to blend all the various martial arts he's studied. I really like the conceptual framework he put into his book and tape on "effortless" throwing.

I'm sure there are others I don't know about, but Cartmell and David Lin(?) in NYC are the only ones in North America that I know of teaching Sun style with any kind of martial focus. A guy named Sebastian Guerrero studied with Lin (I'm not sure that's the correct last name) and posted something about Lin's shuai jiao training as well. I know Sun himself was highly respected for his point striking, but would have also learned grappling and shuai jiao-type moves with both his xingyi under Guo Yunshen and his bagua under Cheng Ting-hua. It makes sense that there would be shuai jiao possibilities in Sun style taijiquan.

I was just reading somewhere that the big Chinese shuai jiao guru from last century, last name of Chang, studied xingyi before shuai jiao or vice versa, and felt them to be ideally complementary arts. He remarked that xingyi gave him excellent entering skills for shuai jiao . . . enter/strike/throw.

Take care.

[Esteban]

Hi Wujidude,

you wrote:

"I'm sure there are others I don't know about, but Cartmell and David Lin(?) in NYC are the only ones in North America that I know of teaching Sun style with any kind of martial focus. A guy named Sebastian Guerrero studied with Lin (I'm not sure that's the correct last name) and posted something about Lin's shuai jiao training as well. I know Sun himself was highly respected for his point striking, but would have also learned grappling and shuai jiao-type moves with both his xingyi under Guo Yunshen and his bagua under Cheng Ting-hua. It makes sense that there would be shuai jiao possibilities in Sun style taijiquan."

Afaik, you're right about David Chih-young Lin, whom I know pretty well; and, by the way, Lin studied with Chang before he died. If you study with Lin, and he likes you, he'll expect that you learn xingyi.

"I was just reading somewhere that the big Chinese shuai jiao guru from last century, last name of Chang, studied xingyi before shuai jiao or vice versa, and felt them to be ideally complementary arts. He remarked that xingyi gave him excellent entering skills for shuai jiao . . . enter/strike/throw."

Chang was also befriended by Gen. Li Jinglin, the swordsman ("Divine Sword Lin, who created the Wudang sword set for the Central Martial Arts Academy in the 1920s. YCF was famous enough to head one of these schools.) Anyway, weapons work is also important. YLC was a renowned spearman. The Yang spear set is very short, but using a spear --in most CMAs-- takes a lot of agility. (Pole-shaking exercises are something else).

Good talking with you,
Esteban

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Internal Boxer, well met. I agree that we seem to be talking at cross purposes. I think we actually agree more than we differ.

What i meant about multiple opponents is simply that the bravado that comes from having your buddys there can lead a person to make errors than can be easily exploited. Errors that they probably wouldn't make if you were just toe to toe. If gouging the eye out of one of the attckers was no deterrant I suggest breaking the neck of the neck one ;) .

Thanks for the kind word wujidude, I appreciate it.

Laughed my backside off reading the "there are no good fighters in..." part of this. Time for anew thread?

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[RAF]

Here is a piece from Jarek's website. Well worth reading.

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/index.html

There is a lot of great stuff on Jarek's webstite. Its probably the closest we, as Westerners, get to good documentation of the martial arts.

[Esteban]

Hi RAF,

which topic did you have in mind on Jarek's site?

Best,
Esteban

[RAF]

Esteben:

Under taiji, it has stories about Chen Fake and talks about playing Chen's taiji intially slow. Under bagua, there is an interview with a bagua master with a good focus on how to train (inferred from the reading)

I am a Chen Fake fan and the pictures are great.

I always check Jarek's site on a daily basis.

[Esteban]

Hi RAF,

ah, yeah the Chen Fake pictures are great, as are the other articles. I also like the article on bagua taiji. It's a great site.

Best,
Esteban

[shog]

All this talk of yielding. I have pretty much finished the majority of my External Arts training (even though I continue to teach), and have recently taken up Taiji Boxing with a WTBA instructor (Gary). It took less than 5 seconds (over a period of several attempts on my part - stubborness rules when you've been practicing since 1979)for Gary to convince me that yielding (in combative principle and not necessarily Taiji technique), or using external against internal, does not work.

Now I am very, very non-aggressive, and at times, I fear that the reptile brain in me no longer functions. I am working on this, for this alone is what is stopping me from becoming better. I can get the relaxation, the sung, the kwa, the C back, the fa-jing, and all the rest over time. But they are meaningless with the reptile brain, which is constantly repressed due to my instantaneous yielding methods. Now in the more combative Karate systems, they too teach to strike first. But these are rare, for as we know (I myself have deeply studied or researched most forms of Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles) the external styles predominantly teach to block or parry (often with too much emphasis) then punch, which is mentally training a person that yielding is the preferred method. Yes, of course, the block becomes the strike at least in theory, but since modern Karateka do not torture themselves by hardening up those particular bones and muscles, those blocks are little more than something for the attacker to push through or simple go around. So much for modernization and theory in the external arts. Now if External systems (including jujitsu - for even they wait for the attack)were to actually go back to their roots, which were more combative and less yielding then they would at least have a chance out on the street. But at this time in Western(and some Eastern) history, this is not the case.

Because I yield, my throws will not work, punches do not work, kicks certainly do not work (have been a TKD person as well), and so on. I have been down the long road of just about every facet of the external arts, and now I am ready to move onto the actual second part of my training, which is internal. And certainly I wish to learn the proper methods (to yield is not one of them for now I am too old to mess around with people - the confrontation needs to end immediately), for my goal is for health first, then combative. I feel I need to learn to not yield and turn on my reptilian brain in order to be at least a little better. It all comes down to individuality and how something is taught, and not the system itself. But even the system (both external and internal) itself can and will have intrinsic flaws (since they are created by human beings), for no one person can or will have all the answers. It is the individual who brings out the best and worst of their training and the system they train under.

So I too will say that Chris M., Gary, Sam, and Internal Boxer(and those that go in line with them) are all right on the money.

[Fu-Pow]

Couple points to make:

Gary:
1)Taiji should not be practiced with an angry mindset. You should not think about fighting when doing the forms, this causes the chi to stagnate.

2)In addition, too much fa jing practice is bad for the health. You should not always be emitting your Chi outward, you should be storing it inward.

3)What you percieve as people doing "park" Taiji may be how it is really supposed to be practiced. This whole ultra-combat Taiji is western thing. (As someone stated before, it is not like their were roaming bands of Taiji practitioners beating people up.) And I have a feeling that people that rush too quickly into competitive push hands are not doing Taiji but something more like wrestling. As long as what these "park" Taiji practiioners are doing obey the principles of Taiji, who is to say they are not building internal power?

Just because people do not practice the sparring aspects of Taiji does not mean that what they are doing is useless. Taiji is a type of Chi Gung, it builds internal health and strength. Whether or not you choose to express the health and strenght outward is up to the practitioner......

Just my two cents.....

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[bamboo_ leaf]

This is from www.chengmanching.com (http://www.chengmanching.com) web site.


. A well-known mantis boxer surnamed Liao from Hong Kong once came to Taiwan to try conclusions with the locals. He traded punches (the accepted challenge method) with a leading pa-kua/hsing-i teacher and his free punch put the local man down to his knees. The local boxer did not hurt Liao with his punch so the affair had to be adjudged in Liao's favour. Strutting out of the park where this occurred, Liao asked if Taiwan had any other boxers. Someone mentioned Cheng's name. So Liao accosted Cheng at a party. Cheng resisted the challenge, saying that the place and time were inappropriate. Liao persisted until Cheng invited him to his house a day or so later. Liao came and watched demonstrations of T'ai-chi dynamics. But he wasn't satisfied. 'This is interesting, Liao said, 'but what would you do if I attacked you?' Cheng replied that he would attempt to push him away. Liao, by this time convinced that the small man before him was afraid to fight, retorted that it would be well to get ready for he was about to attack. At this point, Cheng said 'Very well, but if you even see my hands move I'll never call myself Cheng again' (to give up one's name is a serious thing which most Chinese would commit suicide rather than do.) Liao attacked him from 15 feet with a combined foot-fist action. Those watching did not see what happened, only its results. Liao first was on top of Cheng striking, next he was propelled backward by an unseen force, and bounced off the wall unconscious.


I learned the 37 step from 2 people who had studied directly with Cheng Man Ching (Ben Lo and Ken Wen Chi), prior to that I learned the 108 step from a student of Kai Ying Tung. I prefer and trust the interpretation of the CMC over the Tung TC but that’s just me. I think TC an idea can be found and expressed in many different ways. Each has to find one that fits.

Much has been said on yielding and the use of the idea as a strategy of TC. These are some of my thoughts.

I was under the impression that you stick, follow release. The amount of time and movement with a high level TC player after the touch is quite small, to some it may seem like the TC player didn’t move or actually moved in and the opponent flew out. The people that I’ve had occasion to push with here in San Francisco can easily send a person flying with just a touch. I might add that the force used is not felt only the sense of being moved back off the ground and wondering how to deal with the landing. Hard to believe until felt. Cheng Man Ching was asked why more people don’t get it. I believe his reply was that “they don’t truly believe in it” in his use of rollback, the description and practice is not so much of striking or shocking the arm but of leading the force to emptiness, at the moment the opponent changes we had our power to their power.

This is the level and ability I seek in my own practice and understanding, I have felt this with others so I know that it is real and possible but as CMC said you have to really believe in it.
I have practiced a couple of other CMA styles and have trained with what I thought highly skilled people. No matter what the style the best ones to me where the ones that could do things that you could not feel the force being used.

If some one hits me because he/she is, faster, stronger, or uses some type of tec. I can understand this and if I choose to I can work on some type of strategie to counter them but with TC nothing is felt this is what really impressed me.

Just some thoughts

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[EARTH DRAGON]

You can believe this or not it's your choice but the reason fighting Tai Chi Chuan is lost at least in this country is becuse of lack of masters!!!!!!!!please do not get me wrong I learned Wu tai chi and competion 24 short and 42 long stlye from some very good chinese masters, however I am one of the lucky one's whos been taught the application's of the movements. Not to many masters in today's world have what masters had before the reign of Mau Si Deng or even in the Ming dynasty so again this is not meant to put anybody down or judge their knowledge but as a whole the fighting aspect of real Tai Chi Chuan Is gone!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

Chris, Gary, Shog, et al, Re: Yielding:

As you know, I'm not that familiar with taiji, so I could be off base here, but wouldn't you say the action of Erle's bagua cross-stepping post is yielding?

The idea is not to yield then attack, but rather the yielding simultaneously generates the attack as their energy "pushes you into position" - position being giving them a solid smacking.

Don't you think this can be used combatitively?

Fu-Pow:

"too much fa jing practice is bad for the health."

Everyone I speak to doing true fajing says they feel internally and externally refreshed and charged by the experience. It doesn't seem like anything is being drained.

"This whole ultra-combat Taiji is western thing."

I would claim the exact opposite. The 'old masters' all learned their art to defend themselves.

"As someone stated before, it is not like their were roaming bands of Taiji practitioners beating people up."

There are also not roving bands of SAS beating people up. But there are plenty of cases of SAS using their combat training in appropriate real or training situations. As with taiji practitioners.

"And I have a feeling that people that rush too quickly into competitive push hands are not doing Taiji but something more like wrestling."

I've been told you should never go into competitive push hands. It's not a competition, it's a training tool.

"As long as what these "park" Taiji practiioners are doing obey the principles of Taiji, who is to say they are not building internal power?"

Everyone who's touched hands with them.

"Taiji is a type of Chi Gung."

Taiji is a martial art.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Everyone I speak to doing true fajing says they feel internally and externally refreshed and charged by the experience. It doesn't seem like anything is being drained.
[/quote]

I bet they feel charged. Feels good to get the chi out of the body as opposed to learning how to recirculate it around.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would claim the exact opposite. The 'old masters' all learned their art to defend themselves [/quote]

True, but combat was not the only emphasis. One version of the history states that these excercises started out as health building excercises before it evolved into martial application.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There are also not roving bands of SAS beating people up. But there are plenty of cases of SAS using their combat training in appropriate real or training situations. As with taiji practitioners.

[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know what SAS stands for??????


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've been told you should never go into competitive push hands. It's not a competition, it's a training tool.
[/quote]

Let me clarify. Not "push hand competitions". I mean "Competitive push hands." That is , trying to upset the balance of the other person before understanding the internal mechanism of Taiji and learning the other jings (eg listening).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Everyone who's touched hands with them.

[/quote]

If they don't touch hands then how do you know? This is a circular argument.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Taiji is a martial art.

[/quote]

Taiji, like all Chinese martial arts is a way to strengthen and protect the body. Its martial aspect is just an outgrowth of this mentality that has been honed and sytematized.


Peace... :D

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Kune]

**** straight gary. Tai Chi aint what it used to be back in the day. I believe that 90% if not more, of "True" taichi is lost or kept secretly underground. Most of the knowledge was probably lost to the communist, and the RedGuard, who would were on a mission to kill all scholars and kungfu masters on a large scale. So they whipped out their guns and went out by platoons to massacre anyone who knew kungfu, and especially kill the masters. As a result, walking libraries of kungfu knowledge and experience GONE, all killed. Lots of knowledge was lost forever. So say.. if a master is killed, and his top students, and all that is left is a junior, but that junior attempts to keep his masters art alive, you get a watered down version of that art because that dood will only pass down what he knows. So I guess the few that survived all this would probably become secretive about kungfu.

I am also pretty **** sure Tai Chi and the only system of kungfu that has suffered in this same way... ;(

[EARTH DRAGON]

Agian I say it's becuase their are no true tai chi chuan masters left please read my last post. There is a man in beijing who is a true Tai Chi master his name is Shu Ming.... ask any chinese sifu from the mainland they will know his name! It is said he is impossilbe to touch for his chi is like that of a force field "impervious" and impossible to penetrate. I have a 8mm tape of him shooting chi trough 5 people and knocking them to the ground with his palm.... mind you he is not touching them in any way........ thats Tai Chi Chuan

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Rory]

yes sadly theres only about 5% of people who really practice the traditional tai chi chaun. Sadly its become a "art of health". but hopefully the few real practioniners can reverse that

[brassmonkey]

I'm not worried about the state of Tai Chi Chuan in the U.S. being low as I understand it its low generally everywhere even in China. This is probably due to TCC being such a subtle art few attain true skill. Its my opinion there are some good teachers around and if your serious maybe you'll have to travel. The only thing I find depressing about the state of Tai Chi Chuan is this thread tho.

[Fish of Fury]

Fu-Pow
SAS = Special Air Service
British elite commandos.there is NO better SpecOps force anywhere. their ****s don't stink and the sun shines out of their collective rectums.
(there's also an SAS in australia)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[TaoBoxer]

terrorists?

Sorry, I'm irish...couldn't help it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“The martial ability I have seen displayed in 98% of the Tajiquan people throughout the USA simply deserves to be laughed at. I am not trying to down play the healing benefits in any way, but that is only part of it. It is so common for taijiquan practitioners to take up some other art(common combo=hung-gar/taiji) to learn to defend themselves, when in reality, if one learns to use taijiquan correctly they would destroy a hung-gar person...[lol-insert sh storm here](I am speaking from experience!!)
Well I hope this starts some intelligent conversation and not ego driven rantings!!!
-and so endeth the sermon
Gary”


So speaking from “experience” are you helping to disprove what you see in others?
Dose it matter what or why other people practice?
Why do so many talk only of fa-jing and not sticking power, is this to basic?

I never read: something like the other fell down because I lead him to emptiness or he couldn’t push me because he couldn’t find a place to push.
I always read: I pushed him out using fa-jing or he couldn’t push me over because my root was so strong.
These type of statments seem to have a lot to do with the self, and not the other is this the idea of TC?

Why is that?

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Braden]

Mr. Leaf: "something like the other fell down because I lead him to emptiness or he couldn’t push me because he couldn’t find a place to push."

That's what I was trying to get at with the "cross-stepping post" exercise from bagua, which does exactly this, and I think Gary is familiar with.

I understand his disapproval of yielding in the large scale, but this kind of subtle yielding that creates an attack - I've found to be very effective. In cross-stepping post, as you yield/lead the attack, you also use it's energy to "push you into posture" (notably - the "guard" posture from bagua), which conveniently situated dragon palms and elbows next to your opponent's temple and mastoid. So not only have you stolen his balance (so dramatically that I've had people literally fall when trying to get me, and I'm not even any good at it!), but you've also simultaneously given them a firm whacking.

Surely that's good stuff.

[PlasticSquirrel]

how many of us know this? how many times have topics come up like this? this is far too childish for people like us. i have seen far too many.

we all know what sort of taiji dancers are around, and why let that bother us if there is nothing that we can do but reaffirm our distancing from them? i think that affirmation is all too worn out, though, and most everyone here should know this.

i view the topics on this forum because i want to learn a little more from other perspectives and learn a bit about other styles. however theoretical our discussions get, i trust that the other posters will be practicing as much as they should be and in the right way.

so, why are posts like this here? we can't learn anything from them. we already know that most people that practice taijiquan in the u.s. suck. get over it.

p.s. i wouldn't go far enough to say that 98% of the people suck, though. think of some of the guys we have here in the u.s. like ren guang-yi and george xu. there are actually quite a few good guys here in the u.s.

[Braden]

Your post on a thread saying that posts on the thread are stupid and a waste of time is convincing.

[Nexus]

If you wan't to practice taiji, practice taiji. If you don't become a master because you have been practicing watered-down taiji for 20 years and your true skills are equivalent to a 8 year old in kempo at least you kept yourself busy for the 20 years instead of sitting on the couch watching tv smoking cigarettes, drinking beer and eating bag after bag of potato chips.

Then again, you might develop more qi that way then with the taiji dance half the "park-taiji" people do.

Do what feels right, not what looks right.

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[PlasticSquirrel]

i am not saying that no one should post on this topic. i am saying that the topic is one that we all have seen too many times. by post i meant topic, and that was what was implied by my use of the word.

i posted on this thread because i did not want to make another topic and then try to connect it with this thread. if you know a better way to address the people posting on this thread, then i would like to hear about it.

people comment a bit on the topic, and then others comment on that person's comments, and we have sub-threads, because there is not much of anything interesting in the main topic. what did he expect us to respond with? "oh, really? jesus f*cking christ i didn't know that!"

[gazza99]

Hello, been gone awhile, havent had a chance to respond to some posts,
Fu-pow: Angry? When did I state that I used any sort of anger? Being more Yang, or using the reptilian brain mode is NOT anger. You have not told me anything I didnt know, but thanks anyway!
As to the yeilding I would refer to shogs post, thanks for your input shog! Also I would much rather Blend with the opponents energy than to yeild, perhaps it is only rhetoric? Who knows? Its very difficult to debate such an issue over the net.
Bamboo leaf you stated :
"So speaking from “experience” are you helping to disprove what you see in others?
Dose it matter what or why other people practice?
Why do so many talk only of fa-jing and not sticking power, is this to basic?"
-disprove? Only stating a sad fact that taijiquan done properly needs no supplement art for self-defense. If this disproves someones idea of taiji then so be it.
Yes it does matter what others practice, it is common for someone to think they are learning a skill to defend themselves, when they are learning crap. My point is, that perhaps we should stop being so diplomatic towards these people and what they practice, then maybe not so many will believe the hype.
How others represent my art also directly affects the way others percieve me. So yes it directly affects me, and any other taiji practicioner that knows the true nature of their art.
Braden,
yes I am familiar with the cross stepping post, and subtle yeilding can be usefull, it just depends on what type of technique you are talking about. Like I said its difficult to debate such concepts, when many people define things differently.
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)