non titled Wing Chun

[Roy D. Anthony]

If you want to stop the politics of Wing Chun, then we all have to stop naming our Wing Chun. If Wing Chun is Wing Chun, then there is no naming. Action speaks louder than words. Let's act upon that. Does everyone out there not realize that we are all victims of Wing Chun Name Branding that was started only after Yip Man Passed away? and also after Bruce Lee gained fame for Wing Chun? We are all falling victims to others Branding in order to make themselves Famous. Poor Us!!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have a different take on this subject, Roy.

I've said what I'm about to say several times before on this forum - and with very little support from other people. But I'll say it again...:rolleyes:


The best way to calm down all the politics within wing chun - and the best way to, shall we say, UPDATE wing chun's viability and appropriate visibility within today's martial arts world...

would be serious wing chun sparring tournaments wherein real spontaneous hard contact would be the order of the day within weight divisions and while using thin, semi-fingerless MMA-like gloves to determine what's what.

Reality always trumps rhetoric in the end.

It's hard to claim king-of-the-hill status for one's particular wing chun "lineage" if you just saw three-out-of-three fighters from your school/lineage get their arse kicked...

And it's hard for others to have any credibility when they try to badmouth your "lineage" if you just won three-out-of-three matches. :D

LOL.

[viper]

God **** i love that idea victor god **** id fly to america to compete in that. I want to see all the wing chun gm go at it then well see whos system of ideas are better then we work down the chain.

[anerlich]

Does everyone out there not realize that we are all victims of Wing Chun Name Branding that was started only after Yip Man Passed away?

Branding and product differentiation are a fact of life in many areas. You'll be able to buy generic athletic footwear or sunglasses before you can buy generic Wing Chun.

If this is the biggest thing you have to worry about in your life, you are extremely fortunate.

I've seen factions form and lifelong bitter enemies made in canary breeding, of all things. Human nature.

Victimhood in this context is absolutely a state of mind. You choose to be a victim? Sucks to be you, I guess.


Poor Us!!!

Poor you.

[splinter]

Hard sparring events may seem like a good idea, but IMO, in reality they wouldn’t solve anything.

I mean, it’s very rare that you find someone who REALLY knows how to fight, and ONLY does wing chun. The people who can fight with their wing chun are the people who realize that if they want to learn how to fight, they need to spar people from out side their school, and outside their art (unless they happen to be privileged enough to go to a HUGE wing chun school where there are LOTS of people at your caliber that you can spar with regularly, in which case it MIGHT not be necessary).

If the person has gone out and sparred people from other schools, they’re no longer doing PURE wing chun. They might be doing mostly wing chun, but at some level, they’re fighting style will have been influenced by other arts (even if it’s actually another lineage of wing chun). The practitioner begins to develop their own styles based on their experiences, and what they’ve learned from fighting people who do things differently.

The point is, that it’d be VERY hard to find people who are pure practitioners of a particular lineage, never mind finding people who are from a pure lineage (whatever that means) and can actually fight. I realize this is flame bate, but I’m saying it anyway.

So, hard sparring events will not help to determine which lineages are legit.
The only thing that hard sparring events will determine is which individuals fought better on that particular day. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

The lineage debate can’t be solved, it can only be forgotten (and only once people realize how stupid it is).

If someone wants to prove that the wing chun they do is effective, there’s only one way to do it, and that’s to fight. But again, they’re not proving that their lineage is effective, they’re proving that THEIR wing chun, and their particular approach to training CAN BE effective.

[stricker]

good idea Roy, im down for that. maybe time to send all that see foo grandmaster stuff too :)

anerlich I disagree a bit, what about judo or boxing or even muay thai? no crazy sales pitches going on there or financial structures etc just regular coaches doing their thing. of course there are good bad better worse coaches and clubs but none of this 'my stile is better than yo stile' guff.

no ones trying to sell xyz judo for $$$ are they (except the brazillians :p)


splinter
If someone wants to prove that the wing chun they do is effective, there’s only one way to do it, and that’s to fight. But again, they’re not proving that their lineage is effective, they’re proving that THEIR wing chun, and their particular approach to training CAN BE effective.good quote. i bet lawrenceofidaho will have that on his sig line too he snipes all the best bits :D anyway thats totally the way i see it too. maybe thats why so few wing chun people enter (eg mma) fights as they dont want to embarrass their brand of wing chun in case they lose. if youve never been beaten you must be invincible :D

having an all wing chun tournament is just building it up so of course no one would enter. people should do mma fights or whatever for themselves and their personal evolution not their line or brand. sure all the mma fighters i know love representing their gym etc and thats cool but not the same as thinking anythings proven about lineage etc. i mean my mma club kick ass but i still suck :p

thought id end on a nice quote from my main man bill H:

"It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one."

seems relevant somehow.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hard sparring events may seem like a good idea, but IMO, in reality they wouldn’t solve anything.

I mean, it’s very rare that you find someone who REALLY knows how to fight, and ONLY does wing chun. The people who can fight with their wing chun are the people who realize that if they want to learn how to fight, they need to spar people from out side their school, and outside their art (unless they happen to be privileged enough to go to a HUGE wing chun school where there are LOTS of people at your caliber that you can spar with regularly, in which case it MIGHT not be necessary).

If the person has gone out and sparred people from other schools, they’re no longer doing PURE wing chun. They might be doing mostly wing chun, but at some level, they’re fighting style will have been influenced by other arts (even if it’s actually another lineage of wing chun). The practitioner begins to develop their own styles based on their experiences, and what they’ve learned from fighting people who do things differently.

The point is, that it’d be VERY hard to find people who are pure practitioners of a particular lineage, never mind finding people who are from a pure lineage (whatever that means) and can actually fight. I realize this is flame bate, but I’m saying it anyway.

So, hard sparring events will not help to determine which lineages are legit.
The only thing that hard sparring events will determine is which individuals fought better on that particular day. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

The lineage debate can’t be solved, it can only be forgotten (and only once people realize how stupid it is).

If someone wants to prove that the wing chun they do is effective, there’s only one way to do it, and that’s to fight. But again, they’re not proving that their lineage is effective, they’re proving that THEIR wing chun, and their particular approach to training CAN BE effective.


***GREAT POST, splinter...however, every point you made has been the route that virtually every other martial art that flourishes today has had to follow.

So why should wing chun be the exception?

And the idea that it's always the individual (and not the style/lineage) that shines or loses is way overdone nowadays, imo. It's the politically correct thing to say - but the fact still remains that out of the literally hundreds of martial arts/grappling arts/boxing, etc...that exist....

there's only about maybe 10 arts or so that have consistently demonstrated their efficiency in combat again and again in various tournament venues.

That has to be taken into account, don't you think?

There are Muay Thai only venues...
jiu jitsu only venues...
boxing only venues...
kickboxing only venues...
karate only venues...

ETC. And these tournaments/matches are (and have been) an excellent springboard to competitions that include various styles. And if it turns out that the only wing chun people who excell in fighting are those who are no longer doing only pure wing chun - then so be it!

If it turns out that certain wing chun styles/lineages need to make MORE adjustments/changes than other wing chun styles in order to stay competitive - then again...so be it!

[stricker]

hey victor,

just out of curiosity what sort of rules would you suggest for a wing chun only sport? what about weight categories and classes (eg A,B,C etc as theres no belts)

[stricker]

also forgot to say again...

yeah your right but for boxing muay thai judo etc theres only one 'boxing', one 'muay thai' unlike wing chun which has a million different names.

[splinter]

And the idea that it's always the individual (and not the style/lineage) that shines or loses is way overdone nowadays, imo. It's the politically correct thing to say - but the fact still remains that out of the literally hundreds of martial arts/grappling arts/boxing, etc...that exist....

there's only about maybe 10 arts or so that have consistently demonstrated their efficiency in combat again and again in various tournament venues.

That has to be taken into account, don't you think?

Yes, that definitely needs to be taken into account, but at this point the discussion leaves the realm of lineage debates, and enters the area of trying to make a name for wing chun as a whole, and we all know that nobody can agree on what encompases "Wing Chun as a whole".

All of the arts that you mentioned are highly sportified, and tend to be defined by the rules that they use in their tournaments. So, maybe that really is what we need to do... Try to come up with a set of rules that allows our art to shine in a realistic full contact (but safe) environment, and sportify the art to an degree. This would allow people to develop real fighting skills within the context of the art. Once this is accomplished, the move can be made to broader venues (MMA) to develop real skills outside of the context of the art.

So, to stricker's point, how would we do this? What would the rules be? Of course, no matter what the rules are, people would complain because "wing chun is designed for the street!! There are no rules!!" :D .


ETC. And these tournaments/matches are (and have been) an excellent springboard to competitions that include various styles. And if it turns out that the only wing chun people who excell in fighting are those who are no longer doing only pure wing chun - then so be it!

If it turns out that certain wing chun styles/lineages need to make MORE adjustments/changes than other wing chun styles in order to stay competitive - then again...so be it!

Exactly.

I probably should have read your whole post before I started typing this rather than restating what you said.

[splinter]

Actually, after a little consideration about what I just posted, I realized that it raises an interesting question.

If we try to come up with a set of rules for a realistic, safe environment to test our skills, do we run the risk of losing some of the art?
Do we really want the art to be defined by the rules of the venue?

Presumably by introducing a sportive environment with rules, we'd end up having to throw at least a couple of things away, which might be lost forever. The introduction of competition introduces a change in training goals, and therefore how we prioritise our training.

What's the point in training a biu jee if you're not allowed to attack the eyes or throat?
Iron palm if you have to wear gloves?
Elbows, knees, and head butts if they're deemed too dangerous?

[Lindley]

Ving Tsun, like other martial arts, will always have politics as long as the people who do them have egos. Splinters observation is most correct. The term "pure Ving Tsun" is often presented as the limitations of a three form system using tan, bong, and fuk. The true study of martial arts should not allow Ving Tsun Kung Fu, or any other style, to be used as a limitation but as a foundation. Like the true concept of "Jeet Kune Do", the style must evolve into the person's own expression of the system. We are most fortunate that Ving Tsun is a system, not just a collection of one person's beliefs and ideas. The only way to see one lineage versus another would be to have the best fighters from those lineages go at it. Never will happen.

Moy Yat, William Cheung, Victor Kan, etc. happen to be some guys who were in the class under GM Yip Man. They also happen to branch off and translate their experiences and teachings. And, because they are human, their teachings reflect differences. Nothing magical. Ving Tsun Kung Fu has principles and ideas. The truth in what one does is whether what you are doing is in line with those ideas.

The top top guys in any style can make that style work. But, most people who gain that level of knowledge tend to "learn how to learn". The traditional Kung Fu then becomes just a vehicle to learn how to make a technique, any technique, work. It is this learning that comes in line with Bruce's saying "absorb what is useful, discard what is not...". One cannot truly do this without experience and knowledge. Otherwise, you are only listening to the advice of others.

[anerlich]

no crazy sales pitches going on there or financial structures etc

Judo I concede, MT perhaps ...

But BOXING? Ever heard of a guy called Don King? Pro boxing is arguably the most corrupt sport in the world ...

I don't really hold with the notion of a WC elmination tourney. If WC's any good, it's got to work against all styles, not just under a specific set of rules suited to it ... even if this happened, the MMA bigots would still say we sucked because we haven't fought anyone but ourselves.

IMO MMA basically made WC lineage wars irrelevant.

If you want to prove yourself, enter a kickboxing or MMA tournament and succeed. If any other WC guys take ussue with you or your style, challenge them to do the same thing. Or both enter the same tournament. If WC is as good as you say it is, you will obviously end up crusing through the elimination bouts and face each other in the finals ... won't you?

The notion of "Grandmasters" duking it out is stupid. Who wants to see a bunch of sexa- and septagenarians beating each other over the head with their canes and zimmer frames?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Thank You all for proving my point.*S*

[lawrenceofidaho]

If we try to come up with a set of rules for a realistic, safe environment to test our skills, do we run the risk of losing some of the art?
Do we really want the art to be defined by the rules of the venue?

Presumably by introducing a sportive environment with rules, we'd end up having to throw at least a couple of things away, which might be lost forever. The introduction of competition introduces a change in training goals, and therefore how we prioritise our training.

What's the point in training a biu jee if you're not allowed to attack the eyes or throat? Iron palm if you have to wear gloves? Elbows, knees, and head butts if they're deemed too dangerous?

Guys who want to use iron palm and biu jee attacks to the eyes & throat can still fight in this:
http://www.felonyfights.com/

[splinter]

I don't really hold with the notion of a WC elmination tourney. If WC's any good, it's got to work against all styles, not just under a specific set of rules suited to it ... even if this happened, the MMA bigots would still say we sucked because we haven't fought anyone but ourselves.

IMO MMA basically made WC lineage wars irrelevant.

If you want to prove yourself, enter a kickboxing or MMA tournament and succeed. If any other WC guys take ussue with you or your style, challenge them to do the same thing. Or both enter the same tournament. If WC is as good as you say it is, you will obviously end up crusing through the elimination bouts and face each other in the finals ... won't you?


Well that's just great. There's always some smarty pants who has to come around and make a bunch of perfect sense, and ruin the discussion.

[anerlich]

There's always some smarty pants who has to come around and make a bunch of perfect sense, and ruin the discussion.

Sorry. As some of my older posts illustrate, I often manage to avoid such an outcome :cool:

[stricker]

Judo I concede, MT perhaps ...

But BOXING? Ever heard of a guy called Don King? Pro boxing is arguably the most corrupt sport in the world ...
yeah exactly splinter someones a smartass, but where did i say PRO boxing :p and even then the money is not based on making training super expensive, ripping people off, where you have to go pay your $$$ to the guru.

[reneritchie]

Don't even call it Wing Chun. Please. It begs you...

BTW- Nice to see you posting, Roy!