Cop Out

[Fu-Pow]

One thing I've noticed in sparring is a bias against big guys. The bias is this: If you are a big guy and you win then your win is attributed to your size. If you lose to a smaller opponent then their win is attributed to their skill.

However, what if you are big guy who won not based on strength but based on skill? You're never going to get credit for your skill. IMO, it's a cop out for smaller guys who lose ie "I lost cause that guys was bigger (had longer reach, etc.)." :rolleyes: Translation: "I don't have the skill/knowledge to beat bigger guys."

If you got skills then you got skills if you don't you don't. Weight classes exist for a reason, however, within reason size isn't a major factor in your win or loss....it's how you played the game and used (or didn't use) your advantages/disadvantages.

My 2 cents.....

[Dale Dugas]

IMHO when you have two people who are trained. The bigger person is going to win ALL of the time. Only when you have some BIG person who does not have the same set of skills do you see the smaller person winning.

Hence weight classes in sports as you are talking trained against trained and the little guy is not going to be able to even begin to knock out the bigger people.

[Ray Pina]

I understand your point and it's valid.

At the same time I know a lot of big guys with big mouths and they only seem to challenge guys who are a lot smaller and older.

If you're 6'5 and 225lbs do you really want a feather in your cap for beating a 5'9 150lbs guy? You should be fighting guys 255+lbs.... that means you have something.

I don't brag about beating little girls.

Also, I've had 300+lbs guys declare a draw with me ..... draw? If they draw me what if the weight difference was reversed and I was double their weight? In that instance it wouldn't even be close than now would it?

If they're realy worried about the props though they could easily join a full-fighting competition and meet up with comprable-sized people. I wonder why they don't if they feel secure in their skills? They seem willing to fight lesser guys .... that's called bully.

[Ray Pina]

IMHO when you have two people who are trained. The bigger person is going to win ALL of the time. Only when you have some BIG person who does not have the same set of skills do you see the smaller person winning.

Hence weight classes in sports as you are talking trained against trained and the little guy is not going to be able to even begin to knock out the bigger people.


True that. That's why Sugar Ray, no matter how good of a boxer, could never face the heavy weight. Impossible .... especially in boxing.

Well, I don't like that word, but you'd have to be a lot better.

[Fu-Pow]

In most of the sparring comps I've competed in, heavyweight starts at 180. I'm 240. That's a huge difference. Tell me where the big guys are fighting San Da/San Shou and I'm there.

FP

[PlumDragon]

IMHO when you have two people who are trained. The bigger person is going to win ALL of the time. Only when you have some BIG person who does not have the same set of skills do you see the smaller person winning.

Hence weight classes in sports as you are talking trained against trained and the little guy is not going to be able to even begin to knock out the bigger people.Im with Dale all the way. All other things equal, the bigger guy has the advantage; which is just an unfortunate physical fact of life for us...smaller guys... =)

[Green Cloud]

LOL you mean size matters. Shoot no one ever told me that;)

[Ray Pina]

In most of the sparring comps I've competed in, heavyweight starts at 180. I'm 240. That's a huge difference. Tell me where the big guys are fighting San Da/San Shou and I'm there.

FP

Yea, that's the thing that's crazy about "Kung Fu" tournaments, they lump everyone over 180lbs together. I don't know how that weight works for San Da, but I saw some big boys fighting in Dec. that were probabaly your size. Ask Coach Ross.

Also, why not organize a Throwdown for big guys? Contact guys like Djimbe and BlackTaoist .... one is like 6'7 the other is nearly 400lbs. How about Asia? I don't know him but I think I saw video and he looks kind of big? How about that ex-con boxer? He's kind of big.

As a smaller guy I see big guys all the time who want to fight. This is why we sometimes call bull$hit on bigger guys. Seems like there's no shortage of them wanting to fight guys below 190lbs. ...... but they can never seem to find each other. Or if they do, they become instant friends.

That's just too easy.... and a sign of bullying smaller guys but not stepping up to see what they got.

Not saying this is the case with anyone in particular, just general observation from a 183lber.

[Green Cloud]

looks like the UFC might be your thing

[Judge Pen]

It's not a cop-out; it's true. It's also why a lot of big guys can't fight that well; they've never had to learn. The ones that do are dangerous.

Football analogy: I played in high-school; was pretty good too, but I was too small for my position (offensive guard). I routinely matched up against guys that outweighed me by 60 to 100 pounds. I rarely had a problem because I kept good technique and pad height. I was aggressive and quicker than most of them and I was strong for my size. But occasionally I met the big guy with technique and it was a long night. No contest; if the technique is equal, the size is the difference.

I'm assuming that you are the big guy with the technique. Be thankful; you can control your practice and technique, but not your size. You won the kungfu genetic lottery, my friend.

[sean_stonehart]

It's like my former teacher (former NFL linebacker) & current teacher (big guy in general) both say & agree on...

"Technique is one thing, but you gotta respect nature."

When technique & nature are brought together in the same person (both cases for them), you just have a bad day in front of you.

[Judge Pen]

It's like my former teacher (former NFL linebacker) & current teacher (big guy in general) both say & agree on...

"Technique is one thing, but you gotta respect nature."

When technique & nature are brought together in the same person (both cases for them), you just have a bad day in front of you.

Aint' that the truth. I wouldn't want to get hit by either one of them.

[Crushing Fist]

yeah, I was about to mention the linebacker/5th degree master... you beat me to it.

seriously bad day there.

there is one thing no one has mentioned yet though...


speed


speed kills


if the technique is the same, one guy outweighs the other by 50 lbs BUT the lighter guy is twice as fast...


now who wins?


I've always said the big three advantages are skill, speed and size

if you have all three there is no contest at all, just a spanking

with two its still almost a certain win

with only one its a fight.

[Judge Pen]

Sure, it's physics: Force = Mass time Acceleration. More mass means more force. More Speed equals more force. Technique is the means of delivering the force to the correct location while avoiding the force exerted by an opponent. If you are fast enough, you can overcome a lack of size, but, with all due respect to Newton and his second law, mass seems to have a bit of an edge in my experience.

There's another factor we have not discussed: will. If my will to fight is stronger than yours, then I can win by hurting you and causing you to give up even if my blows aren't enough to cause any real structural damage. Who wants it bad enough? Makes a huge difference in a fight.

[Ray Pina]

Judge Pen, you pretty much summed up my HS football career. I got to college and was like, fu(k that .... everyone was big AND good AND fast.

I used to be heavier, like 210 maybe even 225 when I first met my master so I still find quasi-big guys not too big because I'm used to playing with them. I can't wait to fight at 176lbs!

Or, now that I learned, I can't wait to weigh in at 176 and fight at 185lbs:)

[SevenStar]

yeah, I was about to mention the linebacker/5th degree master... you beat me to it.

seriously bad day there.

there is one thing no one has mentioned yet though...


speed


speed kills


if the technique is the same, one guy outweighs the other by 50 lbs BUT the lighter guy is twice as fast...


now who wins?


I've always said the big three advantages are skill, speed and size

if you have all three there is no contest at all, just a spanking

with two its still almost a certain win

with only one its a fight.


the thing with speed is relativity to human size. when you compare a sports car to a semi, yeah, speed kills. But the variation among humans isn't that great. de lay hoya is faster than tyson, but he's not so fast that tyson can't hit him. He's also not so fast that he'd easily KO a guy Tyson's size. I don't think speed is quite as much of a factor as many think. It plays a part, but it's minor compared to size, skill and will.

[SevenStar]

Judge Pen, you pretty much summed up my HS football career. I got to college and was like, fu(k that .... everyone was big AND good AND fast.

I used to be heavier, like 210 maybe even 225 when I first met my master so I still find quasi-big guys not too big because I'm used to playing with them. I can't wait to fight at 176lbs!

Or, now that I learned, I can't wait to weigh in at 176 and fight at 185lbs:)


won't that make you the big guy playing with the small guys?

[Ray Pina]

Yup.......

[Pork Chop]

Please reference Stanley Ketchel (155lber, maybe 170s for the fight) fighting Jack Johnson (heavyweight champion). Ketchel scores a flash knockdown, but loses once Jack puts his weight on him.

Also reference Kaoklai (175 or 180 for the fight) vs Mighty Mo (240+lb heavyweight); little guy wins with quick KO via headkick.

Little guys can hurt big guys. I don't know where little guys get off thinking they can't. The 3 hardest hitters I've ever met were 153, 165, and 150 respectively. I've fought a lot bigger guys who hurt me a whole lot less. I didn't take it easy on any of those hard hitters once it was established that they could hurt me.

Speed Kills. That's part of what made Mohammed Ali the greatest- nobody had been that tall and still that fast before.

The big attributes for me are:
height/reach, hand speed, technique, power, footspeed, reaction time, weight, and brute strength (for clinching situations).

I'm kinda sick of the "well he's bigger than me, so I can just tee off and he shouldn't be allowed to do anything" mentality. You tee off and I'm going to put my weight on you. It's that simple. The double standard in the gym between little guys and big guys goes out the window as soon as the little guy stops showing respect and starts trying to step it up. If he didn't want to be "bullied" then he shouldn't have stepped it up.

As far as which guys are bullies? I think bullying can really only happen if there's like a 30 to 50 pound disparity, even then it's iffy. I've never dropped Suntzu in training but have outweighed him in sparring sessions by almost 100 pounds at various points over the last 3 years since we started working out together. Part of that's good safety equipment, part is the good relationship we've got working with one another, and more than a little of it is his own skill and chin.

I don't consider myself a big oaf with no skill. I may not be the fastest guy, but when you work with quick little guys, any lack of speed or reaction time is amplified that much more.

PS - I'm really, REALLY sick of the wrestler mentality of dropping as much weight as possible before a match & trying to get into the smallest possible weight division. I think the logic is flawed for a few reasons: 1. dropping that much weight can hurt your performance, 2. going against smaller, quicker guys isn't always a good thing, 3. it just plain doesn't seem healthy, and 4. no offense, but it kinda seems cowardly- if you hit a lower weight through hard training, great, but if you kill yourself so you can bully the little guys...cmon...