Sifu Barry Lee is fantastic

[Anisole]

Hi folks,

I was fortunate to attend a class at the HQ where Sifu Barry Lee was teaching. The class was more like a mini seminar we went through the SLT and Sifu Barry picked some aspects to talk about. His approach is concise and realistic.

What I did not know until now was how BRUTAL wing chun is.

Here's some examples:
1. How the centerline relates to the bottom three knuckles. Sifu Barry said the bottom two knuckles connects with the lower and upper lip and the second knuckle goes into the nose.
He said what happen to the guy is the lips inside will bust open and huge amount of blood will go down the mouth. The flaps inside the mouth just before entering the food pipe will close off because it thinks that the blood are foreign objects. So, you cant breathe and this is not helped by the fact your nose is broken so your body goes into shock or shuts down.

2. Sifu Barry was talking about finger jabs and the starting movement in chum kil the two arms raising up before you turn. He said the thumb goes into a person's eye socket then push out gouging the eye out. He said it has to go inside then outside then he showed the same movement on the dummy.

It was a night to remember and an eye opener to what real wing chun is about, of course he stressed on the practise of SLT.

wing chun is really brutal. cool :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh my God! :eek:

Give this boy the antibiotic serum antidote for kool aid - and quickly!!!

His condition is critical...:rolleyes:

[snakebyte8]

OMFG! Good thing all windpipes don't closeup when presented with "foreign objects"!;)

[Liddel]

The only Line of VT ive seen explain the CK finger action as a eye jab with the thumbs is LT, is Sifu Barry a student of his ?

I personally think this is a misunderstanding of the action, anyone used this action with results ? As a finger jab with the thumb ?

Curious :rolleyes:

[wei wu wei]

Barry Lee is a WSL student. I have heard only good things about him.

I was taught the same application in relation to that CK movement.

[Liddel]

Barry Lee is a WSL student. I have heard only good things about him.

I was taught the same application in relation to that CK movement.

Interesting - was it taught to you as one possible use or the specific usage ?

Just for curiosities sake why the thumbs ?
To me the thumb being tucked in, is the underlying support of the plam and fingers, using the thumb seems to me to downgrade the hands strength :rolleyes:

One thing that stands out to me is the hinge movement of the wrist with regard to this action giving a snapping power to the fingers but this force does not (in my mind :) ) transmit through the thumb as well as the fingers :rolleyes:

Does it not make more sence that if you were to perfom an eye jab you would use the fingers instead ?

Why would one choose the thumb 'rather' than the fingers ?

Dont get me wrong, i respect your POV i am just wanting to understand a little more ;)

[Phil Redmond]

The only Line of VT ive seen explain the CK finger action as a eye jab with the thumbs is LT, is Sifu Barry a student of his ?

I personally think this is a misunderstanding of the action, anyone used this action with results ? As a finger jab with the thumb ?

Curious :rolleyes:
It is also taught by other WC Sifu.
PR

[Gert]

Why would one choose the thumb 'rather' than the fingers ?

I also use the thump instead of the fingers to attack the eyes. And not just LT teaches this but a lot of other trainers.

When I do it the thump makes contact at the same time as the palm, or sometimes a little after the palm has made contact. The thump is less vulnerable than the fingers, so also your change of hurting your hand. To hit the eye with just a finger jab isn’t that easy. First the reaction of a human when something is coming to the eye in order to avoid it is really fast. Second don’t forget that you and your opponent are both moving during a fight. The change of hitting the skull or facial bone is much higher than touching the eye and so also the possibility to hurt the fingers. Furthermore the palm and the fingers at the side of the face prevent the opponent form easy escaping by moving his head to the side.

GJ.

[Kevin Bell]

What you're talking about there is known as Cham Kiu Biu Sau in the WSL method. The idea is it can be anything you want. You can put whatever weapon on the handle (forearm) you want. Whilst it can indeed be an eye gouge, it could also be a punch, side palm, vertical palm etc etc. The point being one doesnt limit the thinking to an eye gouge alone.

[WingTsun20]

It's also a movement where the arms thrust forward and you yank the jaw bone down....(Using the wrists) Then back up....

[Mr Punch]

I also use the thump instead of the fingers to attack the eyes...
GJ.LOL :D

I'd use the thump too! Much more reliable than these poncy gouges! :D

(Note to Gert: 'thump' = 'punch': 'thumb' = 'the opposing digit' ;) )

[Mr Punch]

It's also a movement where the arms thrust forward and you yank the jaw bone down....(Using the wrists) More of that Kool-aid antidote please! It's an emergency!

[Liddel]

Interesting ideas here thanks for replying everyone...

For me i find it easier and more controlled to use my fingers rather than the thumb.

Interesting to know many teachers use it as a thumb strike, i never realised it was this wide spread. :rolleyes:

I would and do use my thumbs in a very close proximity to an opponent like in a type of clinch, however i tend to use my fingers when throwing a strike from a distance. And during Gor Sau.

This applies to Gerts point about his palm making contact at the same time - i can accept that - a different senario but a good point gert Thanks.

But as a jab with the thumb :rolleyes:

Kevin makes a good point that i also believe in - well put - but we are just discussing one aspect of the possibilities derived from Chum Kui Bil Jee.

WingTsun20 your action sounds good but, would it not break a VT rule regarding using two hands to deal with one ?
Regardless if you want to stick to the rules or not ( because it doesnt really matter if it works in fighting) but i believe this would never work against a COMPETENT opponent. Certainly not against a skilled VT fighter.

I have to agree with Mat on that one.
Kool-aid antidote STAT.

Anyway each to thier own, if you have used it with results good for you :D

[Gert]

Interesting to know many teachers use it as a thumb strike, i never realised it was this wide spread. :rolleyes: I use it in training and like you in gor sau, but I think there is also a mental or ethical line to cross to use it in a real fight. I mean not just treatening wise like in training, but actually damaging the eye is something else. I think in that case we wouldn't use it too much.


This applies to Gerts point about his palm making contact at the same time - i can accept that - a different senario but a good point gert Thanks.

But as a jab with the thumb :rolleyes: You welcome! And of course you could not call it a jab than, but I didn't think that was acquired or was the discussion. I only gave my opinion to the subject of using fingers and thumps.



Kevin makes a good point that i also believe in - well put - but we are just discussing one aspect of the possibilities derived from Chum Kui Bil Jee.
Yep Kev has a good point, I and agree with that.:cool:

Cheers,

GJ.

[Frank Exchange]

For those of you who dont know, whilst the original post may seem nothing more than "Oh, Sifu xxxx is the best thing since sliced bread", it is worth pointing out that Barry Lee is one of WSL's longest serving students since the early 70s, specifically trained by Wong to be a fighter, a demonstrator of the method.

I believe he even married WSL's sister. Whilst that gives no indication of anything other than closeness to the family, WSL's nickname for him of "The Machine" perhaps gives some indication of his ability and attitude to training.

For what its worth. I'm not a student of his, but like others heard many good things about him from people whose opinions I respect. He currently teaches in Australia and Germany.

The original post descibed two well known WSL method actions, so I dont quite see the need for "Kool aid" comments.

[Gert]

(Note to Gert: 'thump' = 'punch': 'thumb' = 'the opposing digit' ;) )OK thanks Mat! I didn't noticed your note earlier. Writing mistake by me, sorry English isn't my first language.

GJ.

[GlennR]

Hi all
Yes, Barry Lee did marry Wong's sister.
Ive trained with a lot of Barry's guys in Sydney as well as mixing with a number of other martial artist who have met/trained with him.
His reputation is second to none.

Heres a link to one of his Australian students schools.... Bill Dowding

www.vingtsun.com.au

Glenn

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Glenn,

Do you have any more information regarding Barry Lee's training method, attitude etc. or any other observations on his teaching method?

Regards,

WWW

[GlennR]

Hi WWW
Let me start by saying that ive trained another WC style but visited and trained quite frequently with some BL students & instructors over the few years.So im not a true authority.
Of all the WC ive experienced theirs is the most "direct" ive seen. Everything is simple. non flowery and straight to the point. It really is about finishing the job quickly.
They stress stance work a lot, something im told BL is really big on.
I like their mindset as well..... they dont mind getting down and dirty
Hope that helps
Glenn

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for your response. I have spent some time with a couple of WSL students (not nearly enough though) and similarly one thing I really enjoyed was the directness.

As I wrote before, I have only heard good things about Barry Lee.

If you have any other insights, now or later, I would appreciate hearing them.

Regards,

WWW

[russellsherry]

hi all sifu barry lee is a living legand of the wsl methord, wong said as far as fighting , barry lee was his best student , his nickname is the machine, if you have trained with barry i am quite jeolus in a friendly wayy of course i have never heard any person talk badly about sifu lee even though i am not a wsl student any more nor have i met him peace russelsherry

[dim sim]

Hi folks,

I was fortunate to attend a class at the HQ where Sifu Barry Lee was teaching. The class was more like a mini seminar we went through the SLT and Sifu Barry picked some aspects to talk about. His approach is concise and realistic.

What I did not know until now was how BRUTAL wing chun is.

Here's some examples:
1. How the centerline relates to the bottom three knuckles. Sifu Barry said the bottom two knuckles connects with the lower and upper lip and the second knuckle goes into the nose.
He said what happen to the guy is the lips inside will bust open and huge amount of blood will go down the mouth. The flaps inside the mouth just before entering the food pipe will close off because it thinks that the blood are foreign objects. So, you cant breathe and this is not helped by the fact your nose is broken so your body goes into shock or shuts down.

2. Sifu Barry was talking about finger jabs and the starting movement in chum kil the two arms raising up before you turn. He said the thumb goes into a person's eye socket then push out gouging the eye out. He said it has to go inside then outside then he showed the same movement on the dummy.

It was a night to remember and an eye opener to what real wing chun is about, of course he stressed on the practise of SLT.

wing chun is really brutal. cool :)

Guys! Never! Never! Never! hit a stranger or even someone you know in the mouth-teeth! If he has HIV, AIDS, Hepatitis A, B, C, etc, you'll get it also by cutting you knuckles on his teeth, as his saliva contains blood, as all saliva contains blood! Most likely you'll get infected by his mouth blood onto your cut knuckles! I know of two people who have contracted Hepatitis fighting the same aggressive-hard core junkie dude on two different times several months apart. Lucky he didn't have AIDS!!!!!! Cheers. Dim Sim. ps. They have got this disease for life, and have had to make some lifestyle and diet changes, including wearing condoms for life while having sex!

[Lee Chiang Po]

And they eventually die.

[TenTigers]

I am sure Barry Lee is very good, and he has a good reputation.

but....




I1. How the centerline relates to the bottom three knuckles. Sifu Barry said the bottom two knuckles connects with the lower and upper lip and the second knuckle goes into the nose.
He said what happen to the guy is the lips inside will bust open and huge amount of blood will go down the mouth. The flaps inside the mouth just before entering the food pipe will close off because it thinks that the blood are foreign objects. So, you cant breathe and this is not helped by the fact your nose is broken so your body goes into shock or shuts down.:)

what if the opponent is...


wait for it....








.....moving?

[bennyvt]

hi guys. I learn off bill and have learnt and trained with barry. The blood thing he knows as it has had it happened in many fights. Barry was the first westerner to finish under wsl. This was not seen as a good thing and had most me hk trying to kill him. And being a westerner everyone wanted to beat him. The eye thing is a gouge. The reason for his explainin it in a seminaris this is the most easily seen application but there are several. Any questions i can answer about him are welcome.. Also when did you go to the seminar. In aus or germany. As he is not currently teaching.

[dim sim]

hi guys. I learn off bill and have learnt and trained with barry. The blood thing he knows as it has had it happened in many fights. Barry was the first westerner to finish under wsl. This was not seen as a good thing and had most me hk trying to kill him. And being a westerner everyone wanted to beat him. The eye thing is a gouge. The reason for his explainin it in a seminaris this is the most easily seen application but there are several. Any questions i can answer about him are welcome.. Also when did you go to the seminar. In aus or germany. As he is not currently teaching.


Hello Benny. I also trained with Bill Dowding and Barry Lee(only for a short time) round about 1993-94. This was before Barry went to Germany to live and teach. Barry Lee went from student to Sifu in 2 years under WSL in Hong Kong as he trained nearly every day, and WSL taught him all he knew about Wing Chun or Ving Tsun, and its applications in fighting other styles including western boxing. WSL was already an accomplished fighter before he began his training with Yip Man. Both WSL and Barry Lee were undefeated in their challenge matches in Hong Kong against all comers. Barry's incredible short range punching power comes from hitting a wall bag filled with bluestone(small hard granite stones)and pounding the wooden dummy day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year!

When I asked him once, he said he never trained with weights, knew little about chi, or had any secret internal chi forms he was keeping to himself! He basically told me he just trained in sticky hands, wooden dummy form, and wall and punching bag training! He practiced the three forms when it suited him, and he placed great emphasis on the first or SLT form! He has a great knowledge of the practical applications to go with the forms etc, and he also said he was learning new stuff that came into his mind from time to time. Barry Lee performed a half inch punch on me where he only moved his closed fist upwards/forwards on my chest. All the rest of his body remained perfectly still, including his feet and legs. It felt like someone had rammed the top/tip of a baseball bat into me! There were witnesses also. I felt so embarrassed as I thought I could take it with a smile and a grin! I nearly fell backwards and I was mentally stunned! If this was followed up with a another punch from Barry, say to the jaw, the 'fight' would have been over for me in less than 1 second! Cheers. Dim Sim.

[Vajramusti]

I heard nothing but good things about Barry Lee. Why did he quit teaching? is he ok health wise?

joy chaudhuri

[dim sim]

I heard nothing but good things about Barry Lee. Why did he quit teaching? is he ok health wise?

joy chaudhuri

Hey Joy. I don't know! But since I came upon this thread, BennyVT might know, as I have not had any contact with Bill Dowding or Barry Lee since the middle or late 1990's. Sifu Bill Dowding, I last spoken too(on the phone), told me that WSL had died, and that he, and his Sifu-Gung Barry Lee were going to the funeral in HK!...I have not spoken to him(Bill)since that date that I can remember. Sifu Barry Lee was offered the WSL lineage-school-academy in HK! after WSL's death, but Sifu Barry Lee knocked it back preferring to be himself, and teaching through his own schools and trusted Instructors!...Cheers. Dim Sim.

[goju]

"The original post descibed two well known WSL method actions, so I dont quite see the need for "Kool aid" comments. "

welcome to the wing chun board! where pettyness amongst practioners is unrivaled!
seriously i think to many wc guys think because wc was invented by a woman they have to act like one as well lmao!:p

[bennyvt]

barry had a bike accident. So he is in aus at the moment but will be teaching soon. Barry was not undefeated, he told me that any loss he had he trained more and he beat everyone the next time. Barry is human and he says the fights were normally much better people and more advanced then him at the time as they hated the westerner learning off wsl. Oh and barry normally mentions the eye gouge as when the face is bloody your punches can slip off his face so a palm tends to have less chance. A natural progression from the palm is the eye gouge. He mentions it to teach the gouge should be done on the opposite side. My right hand his left eye. If it is done mirror image like most moves the hand can not control the face and they can slip out without losing an eye

[GlennR]

Hey Benny

Glenn here.... hows things?

Is Barry looking at doing any teaching in Aus??

Glenn

[dim sim]

barry had a bike accident. So he is in aus at the moment but will be teaching soon. Barry was not undefeated, he told me that any loss he had he trained more and he beat everyone the next time. Barry is human and he says the fights were normally much better people and more advanced then him at the time as they hated the westerner learning off wsl. Oh and barry normally mentions the eye gouge as when the face is bloody your punches can slip off his face so a palm tends to have less chance. A natural progression from the palm is the eye gouge. He mentions it to teach the gouge should be done on the opposite side. My right hand his left eye. If it is done mirror image like most moves the hand can not control the face and they can slip out without losing an eye

Hey Benny and Glenn, When I trained with Bill Dowding and Barry Lee in the early to mid nineties, and only for a short time, Bill D. told me that Barry Lee was undefeated in all his challenge matches! I never asked Barry Lee if he was undefeated in his challenge matches personally. Thanks for pointing this out to me that Barry Lee did lose some of his fights! It just seems typical that some instructors glorify their Sifu's beyond comprehension to invincible like status, including telling some fibs! But one things for sure! I was on the receiving end of one of Barrys less than 1 inch punch to the chest! It's 100% true about the power of his punches!

The worst comes from those Japanese karate schools. When I lived and worked in England from 1973-1982, and especially in London, I would join the nearest karate school to keep myself fit and to learn some attack-self defense. I was moving around, living in various places there, including around England itself with a waterproofing company. Martial art schools were only just springing up thanks to Bruce Lee movies, but the vast majority were karate schools of many different styles. Some TKD and other Korean schools also. As I was moving around London, and living around England with my work etc, every friggin' karate school I trained in had the same bullsh*t story! The instructor would tell us how his instructor or 'sensei' was attacked by 4 or 5 heavy dudes, and he cleaned them all up!

When I wasn't told the above, I would ask the instructor, and nearly 99% of the time he would tell me that classic story that floated around all karate schools. When I returned to live back in Australia in 1982, and later I moved to Gosford in 1985. I joined the biggest karate school there, and guess what! The instructor told us there that the schools owner and chief instructor, who still runs the same school today, and Glenn knows about this school, cleaned up and beat up 4 or 5 guys that attacked him in Hungary before he emigrated to Australia. It wasn't until years later that I learned that the schools owner and chief instructor only reached black belt status after emigrating too and training with an australian school-instructor!

What did I get from all those Jap karate schools I trained in? It kept me out of the pubs after work, and it kept up my fitness with those heavy-intense warm up and stretching exercises, plus all those thousands of punches, kicks, and blocks! I did enjoy the sparring which was nothing but second to third rate western boxing! All those katas to just box like a poor amateur!? It's no wonder why so many karate guys keep getting cleaned up in real street fights! If you hear of a good karate fighter it's because he goes and trains in western boxing to add to his karate kicks. These days there's Muay Thai, Kickboxing, etc. Why bother with karate!?

I did enjoy training with Simon Lau(Wing Chun)when he opened his first school in London. I was his first student, together with 80 others, who turned up for the opening and training in his school! But work took me way from London again. When I returned to London I had a girlfriend in tow, and Beer, Bongs, and Boxes ruled my life! Living up the north coast of NSW, Australia for many years now, there's only Korean or Jap styles nearby. I would have loved to stay with Wing Chun(any lineage)just for my love of it, until I dropped dead. Cheers. Dim Sim

[goju]

lyoto machidas a karate fighter and i know i know people will say he trains with other guys with this and that but the has specifically said the majority of his traning is done out of fathers karate school and he is a karate fighter

kata worthless? no ,the legendary bas rutten was a staunch believer in kata he believed it keeps you in great shape to be able to preform full power full speed kata and in improves your foot work and fluidity


as far as karate sparring looking like boxing well karates allways had punches that boxing has. the hook? karate has it the upper cut? karate has? slipping? karate has it and this is keping it in a tradtional sense

hell theres even a few chinese stiles that bob and weave and flurryI(and no im not talking about chinese kickboxing)

[dim sim]

lyoto machidas a karate fighter and i know i know people will say he trains with other guys with this and that but the has specifically said the majority of his traning is done out of fathers karate school and he is a karate fighter

kata worthless? no ,the legendary bas rutten was a staunch believer in kata he believed it keeps you in great shape to be able to preform full power full speed kata and in improves your foot work and fluidity


as far as karate sparring looking like boxing well karates allways had punches that boxing has. the hook? karate has it the upper cut? karate has? slipping? karate has it and this is keping it in a tradtional sense

hell theres even a few chinese stiles that bob and weave and flurryI(and no im not talking about chinese kickboxing)


Duh! Duh! Duh! Amigo!....Learn to spekada and write da Engleesh! before you try to fill me with your Karate Krap!.....I've been there, done that, in the Karate world, in the 1970's-80's! Karate hand-fighting techniques today, copies western boxing, and other styles including chinese boxing, and they try to make it out as traditional stuff, devised hundreds of years ago by their Jap ancestors!?????????!!! Cheers. Dim Sim

[goju]

Duh! Duh! Duh! Amigo!....Learn to spekada and write da Engleesh! before you try to fill me with your Karate Krap!.....I've been there, done that, in the Karate world, in the 1970's-80's! Karate hand-fighting techniques today, copies western boxing, and other styles including chinese boxing, and they try to make it out as traditional stuff, devised hundreds of years ago by their Jap ancestors!?????????!!! Cheers. Dim Sim

first of all.....wow:D
second you must have seen some very lousy karate
third copying chinese boxing? karate is derived from chinese martial arts! lol!!!

the hook uppercut etc etc have existed in asian martial arts for thousands of years it isnt a recent boxing addition

sheesh man dont talk about something you dont have a clue about:D

[David Peterson]

Kev Bell is right on the money - the CONCEPT is introduced in Cham Kiu form, the specific APPLICATION is trained in the Muk Yan Jong form, as taught by my late instructor, Sifu Wong Shun Leung. Using the thumb in this way, as a potential eye gouge, is a far more reliable method than utilising the fingers and suggestions that it lacks power, etc, are not at all justified. Whether this is unique to our "family" or not, I am not in a position to say, but I've not seen it done as such by other lineages in my own experience. As for Sifu Barry Lee's abilities, I can safely say that they are not exaggerated.
DMP

[Vajramusti]

That motion in chum kiu has many possible applications- including the use of thumb with control when the opportunity is there. There are other possible applications.

joy chaudhuri

[bennyvt]

yeh we always got told not to hit the eyes with the fingers. Too hard to aim and the blink reflex is very quick. As stated before this can be an eye gouge (not strike) or simply learn you can hit over the top when the other hand will not be moved to strike as long as you still control. This is more like when the fut san guys do the phoenix fist over the top.