The Biggest fight I've ever been involved in

[SevenStar]

Long story short, over the weekend A fight broke out at my club invloving over 20 people, not including the bouncers. It started as a fight between two people that I rushed to break up because I KNEW it was gonna get out of hand - there were large groups of people from opposing sides of the city and the ones fighting were each from one of the sides. I grabbed the guy who threw the first punch and put him in an RNC. As I was dragging him out, one of his buddied comes behind me and starts punching me in the back of the head. It didn't hurt, so I kept with the choke, till the guy was unconscious. One of the other bouncers handled the guy that was behind me. After that, all he11 broke loose. Everyone jumped in and all of the other bouncers (7 of us total) were trying to keep everything under control, dropping any aggressor we came in contact with. Finally, a group of cops rushed in and started helping us take people out, arresting several of them.

[Ray Pina]

That sounds gnarley. You alright? Any damage?

Can you describe that choke? RNC? .... it took me some time to figure out "LOL".

[Hieronim]

how do you grab a guy and put him in a rear nakid choke? Did you grab his shirt and neck with the other hand and spun him backwards? the problem with that is what if they have their chin tucked in and/or bent forward awayf rom you?

[Shaolinlueb]

sounds like the late early morning (3am) of springfield mass on a sat night.... jsut about everyone.

[neilhytholt]

Is this a club you own, or are a bouncer at?

I've been asking around trying to figure out how often fights start in clubs and how much random violence is out there. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of people wanting to start fights in clubs, but I've never had to actually fight (although I've been on the receiving end of a few random swings and elbows on the dance floor).

I always figured any fight in the club would likely end in a gun fight outside later.

Knowing that they'll get arrested, do lots of people still get into fights? (like every week)? Or is it relatively rare (like once a month or something)?

[neilhytholt]

how do you grab a guy and put him in a rear nakid choke? Did you grab his shirt and neck with the other hand and spun him backwards? the problem with that is what if they have their chin tucked in and/or bent forward awayf rom you?

It's pretty easy, you just grab an arm, step behind him, and apply the choke. If you're behind him already, it's even easier.

[MasterKiller]

Can you describe that choke? RNC? .... it took me some time to figure out "LOL".

Rear Naked Choke

[Hieronim]

It's pretty easy, you just grab an arm, step behind him, and apply the choke. If you're behind him already, it's even easier.

yea but like I said he could than bent forward as you egt behind him his head away form you or tuck his chin in, also as you turn him he could be turning in the opposite direction to keep inf ront of you and making his arm/body hard like when u try applying a wrist lock and they make their arm hard its impossible.

[SifuAbel]

as opposed to a rear fully clothed choke? :D :D

[Ray Pina]

yea but like I said he could than bent forward as you egt behind him his head away form you or tuck his chin in, also as you turn him he could be turning in the opposite direction to keep inf ront of you and making his arm/body hard like when u try applying a wrist lock and they make their arm hard its impossible.

There's no such thing as "That's it." Something could be done for everything .... if you stand there thinking about the ifs and buts you're going to get stomped. One action made with intention is better than 10 pondered.

[neilhytholt]

yea but like I said he could than bent forward as you egt behind him his head away form you or tuck his chin in, also as you turn him he could be turning in the opposite direction to keep inf ront of you and making his arm/body hard like when u try applying a wrist lock and they make their arm hard its impossible.

Well you're relying on the inexperience of the person, and the drunk factor. IMHO somebody who doesn't do anything and lets you get a RNC is pretty freaking stupid. But usually bouncers will team up on the guy to do this.

One bouncer will get them from the front or the side while another bouncer will get them from behind. This seems to be a favorite bouncers technique -- they must teach it in a class or something.

[Fu-Pow]

I grabbed the guy who threw the first punch and put him in an RNC. As I was dragging him out, one of his buddied comes behind me and starts punching me in the back of the head. It didn't hurt, so I kept with the choke, till the guy was unconscious. .

Good thing the guy didn't have a knife or you'd be pushin up daisies. In a brawl like that I think I'd rely more on striking then trying to grab people and choke em, its too slow. You should learn some CLF in addition to MT its brilliant for multiple attackers especially when they're behind you....;)

[SevenStar]

how do you grab a guy and put him in a rear nakid choke? Did you grab his shirt and neck with the other hand and spun him backwards? the problem with that is what if they have their chin tucked in and/or bent forward awayf rom you?


remember - I break up the fights. he was fighting someone else, so his back was to me.I just had to apply the choke. as for tucking his chin, everything has a counter. had he tucked his chin, I probably would've thrown him.

[SevenStar]

Good thing the guy didn't have a knife or you'd be pushin up daisies. In a brawl like that I think I'd rely more on striking then trying to grab people and choke em, its too slow. You should learn some CLF in addition to MT its brilliant for multiple attackers especially when they're behind you....;)

the problem with this line of work is that you aren't supposed to strike. At the time, his buddies weren't involved - it was one on one. once the situation escalates, THEN you can strike. I coulda let the the guy go and hit the guy hitting me at that point, but if I did, I woulda had to deal with all three of them at once. Since the punches didn't hurt, I didn't worry with him.

one of our guys did get stabbed in the leg friday night though.

[SevenStar]

Well you're relying on the inexperience of the person, and the drunk factor. IMHO somebody who doesn't do anything and lets you get a RNC is pretty freaking stupid. But usually bouncers will team up on the guy to do this.

One bouncer will get them from the front or the side while another bouncer will get them from behind. This seems to be a favorite bouncers technique -- they must teach it in a class or something.


they don't teach it - it's common sense. two or three of use can get rid of a guy faster than one can. The faster the better, as the other patrons are more likely to be unaware that something happened.

As far as the RNC goes, it's not just that. dude swings, I duck, clinch and circle behind him. happens all the time. And remember that not everyone drinks. to assume they are drunk is not wise.

[SevenStar]

That sounds gnarley. You alright? Any damage?



I did it to myself. They allow alcohol on the dance floor. I slipped in a puddle as I engaged a guy coming to me. I went one way to hit him and my knee went the other. I think trying to brace myself and not fall is what really did the damage. I shoulda gone with it. I'm gonna get it checked out this week. right now, it hurts to straighten my leg all the way. I can bend fully and move it in all directions, but it hurts to extend it and to put pressure on it.

[neilhytholt]

they don't teach it - it's common sense. two or three of use can get rid of a guy faster than one can. The faster the better, as the other patrons are more likely to be unaware that something happened.

As far as the RNC goes, it's not just that. dude swings, I duck, clinch and circle behind him. happens all the time. And remember that not everyone drinks. to assume they are drunk is not wise.

I've never actually been in a nightclub or bar type situation where somebody was trained, but if you get one trained guy against 3 beefy bouncers, he's still not going to be able to pull something off.

Which is the other part of the reason I never get into stuff at nightclubs, because it's humiliating to be led away by bouncers and you can't fight them or you go to jail.

My favorite self defense technique in a nightclub is if somebody starts stuff just back down. Guy gets mad at you, is pushing or yelling or something, back down. Bouncers will usually notice the guy. Next time he does it, he gets taken out.

Of course some people might call you a wimp, but oh, well. In a nightclub you're not just fighting another person you're also fighting the bouncers, the cops, and all of that person's friends later.

[mantis108]

I think Seven Star did the right thing although I would worry about actually chocking the guy out with the RNC. If he's too intoxicated, which is a condition that you don't know for sure, there might be complications and the legal ramification won't be in your favor. But in veiw of the circumstances. It can't be helped.

Bouncer like LEO in most cases are not allowed to use strikes (ie punching). But if slapping "gently" (re:striking) someone around so that you can get him into some kind of a submission hold, that's somewhat understandable and reasonable. The issue has always been reasonable force and you are more or less using it for self defense and self preservation. Most of the time, tasers (police only) are used as primary deterrance nowadays. They won't even try to duke it out with the "buddy" So... Got to love policing technological advancement. ;)

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Is this a club you own, or are a bouncer at?

I've been asking around trying to figure out how often fights start in clubs and how much random violence is out there. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of people wanting to start fights in clubs, but I've never had to actually fight (although I've been on the receiving end of a few random swings and elbows on the dance floor).

I always figured any fight in the club would likely end in a gun fight outside later.

Knowing that they'll get arrested, do lots of people still get into fights? (like every week)? Or is it relatively rare (like once a month or something)?

we have fights all the time. they mostly happen on weekends though. fights do happen a lot - but it depends on several factors:

1. how much alcohol is involved
2. women
3. the DJ
4. the size of the crowd
5. are drugs involved?

and strangely enough, whether or not it's a full moon. We seem to ALWAYS have problems if the moon is full.

None of our fights have ever ended in gunplay, however there have been threats of it. We have had guys get jumped when a group of guys recognized them outside though. "Hey, you put me out of the club last weekend!"

not all fights lead to an arrest. If we put a guy out and he goes quietly, he just leaves. if he makes an ass of himself outside the club or struggle with us inside after the fight is done, cops usually detain them. if they calm down, they'll just let them go. maybe about 5% of our altercations result in an arrest.

[SevenStar]

My favorite self defense technique in a nightclub is if somebody starts stuff just back down. Guy gets mad at you, is pushing or yelling or something, back down. Bouncers will usually notice the guy. Next time he does it, he gets taken out.

Of course some people might call you a wimp, but oh, well. In a nightclub you're not just fighting another person you're also fighting the bouncers, the cops, and all of that person's friends later.


definitely. that's the best option.

[David Jamieson]

Thanks for the tip seven, I'll be sure to never have a drink in the club you work at.

sounds like a retardo fest.

If I were you, i'd find a different place to work. Only a matter of time before you're sporting a hole you weren't born with.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i think its funny how many people give seven star advice that arent bouncers or former bouncers.

jamieson's might be sound, its certainly not the safest job in the world, but otherwise im gonna listen to the man actually doin it.

[SevenStar]

Thanks for the tip seven, I'll be sure to never have a drink in the club you work at.

sounds like a retardo fest.

If I were you, i'd find a different place to work. Only a matter of time before you're sporting a hole you weren't born with.


ot be honest, I work at one of the safest and most popular clubs in the city. It's downtown, so there are lots of cops and we use metal detectors on saturday nights. We are gonna start using them every night now, after friday's stabbing. The club has three floors - the first floor has a live band. The third plays mainstream r & b and hip hop, techno, pop, etc. The second floor is all rap/hip hop. consequently, every wannabe gangsta goes to the second floor. floors 2 and 3 are only open on the weekend.

Guess which floor I work on the weekends? :)

[Judge Pen]

The club has three floors - the first floor has a live band. The third plays mainstream r & b and hip hop, techno, pop, etc. The second floor is all rap/hip hop. consequently, every wannabe gangsta goes to the second floor. floors 2 and 3 are only open on the weekend.

Guess which floor I work on the weekends? :)

Are you trying to get us to say something sterotypical? :) Sorry about the knee and your co-worker that got stabbed.

[SevenStar]

blasted lawyers. :)

yeah, I'll let you guys know what they say about the knee. my co-worker was stabbed right in the quad, and his leg cramps up when he puts pressure on it. The doc said he can come back this week though. He's back on duty wednesday.

[TenTigers]

where is your club? Sounds like my kind of party...except for the hip-hop muzik. Actually, most of the clubs I hang out at would be considered "Biker Bars"sawdust on the floor,-live rock music,scantily clad women,and too much alcohol,Bikes, broads, and booze, and surprisingly enough, there are hardly any fights.
In my younger days, all the fights were at discos, where guys wore jackets and ties. Dom and cocaine-bad combination I guess. Better off stickin to Jack and Cuervo.

[SevenStar]

actually....

wednesday night is biker night. they allow bikes onto the street and bikers from various walks come to the clubs.

as for where we are, the club is on beale st. (memphis, tn)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Guess which floor I work on the weekends? :)

i guess blue.

[Hieronim]

remember - I break up the fights. he was fighting someone else, so his back was to me.I just had to apply the choke. as for tucking his chin, everything has a counter. had he tucked his chin, I probably would've thrown him.

but what if he had a gun or knife and if you throw him it will give him enough time to regroup his weapoin wielding hand and/or fire the gun at you? The only way is to throw while grabbing the arm and holding it the whole time and just as he htis the ground spin him around with that arm but I cant think of any throws liek that that would work against big tough men.

what I wonder and havent ahd the chance to try is if say your standing in the back of a guy but his chin is tucked or his neck is leaning downwards, would grabbing his forehand with your right hand and pushing back on it and quickly putting your elft arm around his neck and putting him in a rear nakid work or as you put pressure on hsi forehead he would automatically with his natural reflexes sense you and turn aorund or get out of it before you have a chance to apply it?

[Hieronim]

There's no such thing as "That's it." Something could be done for everything .... if you stand there thinking about the ifs and buts you're going to get stomped. One action made with intention is better than 10 pondered.

yes but as Bruce Lee said its better to practise one technique a thousand times than practise 10 10 times each. Thats why you should master a technique and be abel to apply it under any conditions to any human on earth in order for it to be truly effective, even John Wang said that and he said (jokingly I think) to first practise against kids (resistance) than work your way up until you can apply it on giants, than you truly know you have the technique down. For instance alot of judo throws would eb sueless on a beach with no shirts on, so practising them would imo be better left for techniques that work under any conditions.

[Judge Pen]

I've always been told that the proof is in the pudding. Sure the guy could have had a weapon, etc., and if he did things may hve been different, or they may not have. In truth no one knows how they will react until they are in that situation. We train and train and at some point, the training takes over, but you still don't have time to think and ponder about what technique is best; you just react. The best technique is the one that works.

I'd trust 7Star to have my back anytime. Honestly, who here wouldn't?

[David Jamieson]

I'd trust 7Star to have my back anytime. Honestly, who here wouldn't?


Those of us who aren't gay? :p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I've always been told that the proof is in the pudding. Sure the guy could have had a weapon, etc., and if he did things may hve been different, or they may not have. In truth no one knows how they will react until they are in that situation. We train and train and at some point, the training takes over, but you still don't have time to think and ponder about what technique is best; you just react. The best technique is the one that works.

I'd trust 7Star to have my back anytime. Honestly, who here wouldn't?

thats what i was tryin to say ... lots of people want to be talkin all over sevens walkin and it just don't make no sense.

and i'd like the idea of seven at my back. it makes my naughty parts tingle.

[SevenStar]

but what if he had a gun or knife and if you throw him it will give him enough time to regroup his weapoin wielding hand and/or fire the gun at you? The only way is to throw while grabbing the arm and holding it the whole time and just as he htis the ground spin him around with that arm but I cant think of any throws liek that that would work against big tough men.

what I wonder and havent ahd the chance to try is if say your standing in the back of a guy but his chin is tucked or his neck is leaning downwards, would grabbing his forehand with your right hand and pushing back on it and quickly putting your elft arm around his neck and putting him in a rear nakid work or as you put pressure on hsi forehead he would automatically with his natural reflexes sense you and turn aorund or get out of it before you have a chance to apply it?


lol... I'm in a good mood today, so I'll entertain this.

1. I was holding him - his hands were visibly empty. If he were reaching and I saw him, then I'd kick him in the head.

2. we use metal detecors on saturdays. doesn't mean a knife can't make it in, but in most cases, it won't.

3. had he been visibly holding the knife, I wouldn't have choked him, leaving him with a free hand to stab me. but actually, having his arm and neck, I coulda done a throw similar to tai otoshi, depending on exactly how I was holding his arm.

What ifs are irrelevant though.

as for the second part of your question, yeah, you can do that. And yes, he will most likely resist. his head is resisting against your body though - you will win eventually. you can also work your hand under there by crossfacing him or by flattening your hand and trying to snake it under his tucked chin. All of that would've taken too long in this situation though - I woulda either put him in something else, hit him or thrown him.

[SevenStar]

yes but as Bruce Lee said its better to practise one technique a thousand times than practise 10 10 times each. Thats why you should master a technique and be abel to apply it under any conditions to any human on earth in order for it to be truly effective, even John Wang said that and he said (jokingly I think) to first practise against kids (resistance) than work your way up until you can apply it on giants, than you truly know you have the technique down. For instance alot of judo throws would eb sueless on a beach with no shirts on, so practising them would imo be better left for techniques that work under any conditions.


a lot of judo throws will work with a gi if you know what to do... However, what you posted has really nothing to do with what ray said. And there is no possible way that you can have a techjnique honed to a point where you can make it work on 100% of the people 100% of the time.

[SevenStar]

thats what i was tryin to say ... lots of people want to be talkin all over sevens walkin and it just don't make no sense.

and i'd like the idea of seven at my back. it makes my naughty parts tingle.


I make david's naughty parts tingle also. He just won't admit it.

[Hieronim]

lol... I'm in a good mood today, so I'll entertain this.

1. I was holding him - his hands were visibly empty. If he were reaching and I saw him, then I'd kick him in the head.

2. we use metal detecors on saturdays. doesn't mean a knife can't make it in, but in most cases, it won't.

3. had he been visibly holding the knife, I wouldn't have choked him, leaving him with a free hand to stab me. but actually, having his arm and neck, I coulda done a throw similar to tai otoshi, depending on exactly how I was holding his arm.

What ifs are irrelevant though.

as for the second part of your question, yeah, you can do that. And yes, he will most likely resist. his head is resisting against your body though - you will win eventually. you can also work your hand under there by crossfacing him or by flattening your hand and trying to snake it under his tucked chin. All of that would've taken too long in this situation though - I woulda either put him in something else, hit him or thrown him.


yea but wont he turn as your trying to apply it and bent forward or even fall to the ground to egt awayf rom it? and if you throw him and he has a gun in his pocket what if he pulls it out right away ebfore you can finish kicking him or egt to him or has it out already while you threw him and didnt drop it throuought the throw?

lets not talka bout guns, lets go a bit lower. Do you think you could disabel a guy with a knife say in a prison cell if you ahd to?

[Hieronim]

I've always been told that the proof is in the pudding. Sure the guy could have had a weapon, etc., and if he did things may hve been different, or they may not have. In truth no one knows how they will react until they are in that situation. We train and train and at some point, the training takes over, but you still don't have time to think and ponder about what technique is best; you just react. The best technique is the one that works.

I'd trust 7Star to have my back anytime. Honestly, who here wouldn't?

martial artsis full of what ifs, just look at scenario training or the spear system. If your nto training what ifs youll freeze in an unexpected situation and forget everything you know.

[Ray Pina]

Why are you such a pain in the a$$?

Nobody wants to see if they can disarm a man wielding a weapon. You train to have control of your body, to utilize as much leverage as you can from each beneficial position you put yourself in. From there you control the other man's body, that includes his limbs and extensions there of.

No technique is perfect. A good rule of thumb is: When I know and you don't know I win. When you know and I know we see who's better.

Each situation is unique. To say, " I could beat that guy" or "I could take the weapon" ...a real fighter knows that's just talk. There's only one way to know. But a real fighter will be prepared for that situation if it comes, he'll be trained, tried and tested. That's all you can do: prepare yourself to do your part.

[MasterKiller]

For instance alot of judo throws would eb sueless on a beach with no shirts on, so practising them would imo be better left for techniques that work under any conditions.

All you really have to do is replace grabs with an over-hook/under-hook to make most throws work without a gi.

Hieronim = Strangler imo. Save us all the trouble and re-ban him now.

[SevenStar]

martial artsis full of what ifs, just look at scenario training or the spear system. If your nto training what ifs youll freeze in an unexpected situation and forget everything you know.

no you won't. I don't train what ifs... we just drill and spar. you learn when to use what. spontaneous reaction is a byproduct of training and experience.

[SevenStar]

Hieronim = Strangler imo. Save us all the trouble and re-ban him now.


yeah, he's not too far from it...

[MasterKiller]

He's already treated us to his trademark misogyny. All that's left are two or three racist comments and a bunch of posts about prison rape...

[Hieronim]

no you won't. I don't train what ifs... we just drill and spar. you learn when to use what. spontaneous reaction is a byproduct of training and experience.
Than explain that to Tony Bauerand Paul Vunak among other instructors who train anvys eals and sepcial forces and who have alot more to say about this subject and authority than you do. And explain why almost every single tma one arth trains in what ifs and scenario training. Heck even Bas has a street fighting tape he has talking about what ifs. Sparring with gloves wont prepare you for a weapon wielding scum, or a prison rapist 3 times as large as you.

[Hieronim]

All you really have to do is replace grabs with an over-hook/under-hook to make most throws work without a gi.

Hieronim = Strangler imo. Save us all the trouble and re-ban him now.

yes but have you ever tried clinghcing with a monster 3 times your size? I had with a body builder and he threw me aorund liek a ragdoll no matter how I grabbed him, thius only leg type trips work or real quick sweeps against them.

[tug]

definitely. that's the best option.


Agreed. I bounced in a sh!thole dive bar in NYC for 6 years, and because of exactly that tactic that made it so I only had 3 actual physical encounters in those 6 years where I had to put my hands on someone. All the others either settled down and weren't any more trouble for the night, or they were "escorted" to the door and out to the street.

Sometimes clarity, playing it cool and level headedness can be very effective in confrontations. Just don't forget to keep eye contact until you are comfortable the situation has been diffused.

Where are you located 7? I'd be very interested in swapping stories.

TuG.

[Hieronim]

Why are you such a pain in the a$$?

Nobody wants to see if they can disarm a man wielding a weapon. You train to have control of your body, to utilize as much leverage as you can from each beneficial position you put yourself in. From there you control the other man's body, that includes his limbs and extensions there of.

No technique is perfect. A good rule of thumb is: When I know and you don't know I win. When you know and I know we see who's better.

Each situation is unique. To say, " I could beat that guy" or "I could take the weapon" ...a real fighter knows that's just talk. There's only one way to know. But a real fighter will be prepared for that situation if it comes, he'll be trained, tried and tested. That's all you can do: prepare yourself to do your part.


Dont quote me, John Wang is the one who said that and I just agreed with him. He said it on emptyflower, he believs the head lock can work against 100% of people one arth if traind and applied right. heck didnt he originally quit posting on this forum because of that kind of argumen with Ross? bruce Lee also agreed with this type of principle, in his one technique rather than a hundres speech or whatever it was.

Regarding your second point, if you only train unarmed combat you will enver be able to disarm someone no matter how much you spar. In order to be able to you ahve to spar unarmed vs someone who is armed and trying to hurt you not just play fight you.

[SevenStar]

Regarding your second point, if you only train unarmed combat you will enver be able to disarm someone no matter how much you spar. In order to be able to you ahve to spar unarmed vs someone who is armed and trying to hurt you not just play fight you.

last year there was an article about a thai boxer who came home to find 3 assailants robbing his home and assaulting his mother. two of the three had weapons. He sent all of them to the hospital.

[SevenStar]

Agreed. I bounced in a sh!thole dive bar in NYC for 6 years, and because of exactly that tactic that made it so I only had 3 actual physical encounters in those 6 years where I had to put my hands on someone. All the others either settled down and weren't any more trouble for the night, or they were "escorted" to the door and out to the street.

Sometimes clarity, playing it cool and level headedness can be very effective in confrontations. Just don't forget to keep eye contact until you are comfortable the situation has been diffused.

Where are you located 7? I'd be very interested in swapping stories.

TuG.


memphis, tn. We should publish a book about such stories... I've seen things from this fight, to guys p!ssing on another guys shoes to *yuck* a guy ejaculating on a girl's leg without her knowing. And it happened right on the dance floor.

[Hieronim]

last year there was an article about a thai boxer who came home to find 3 assailants robbing his home and assaulting his mother. two of the three had weapons. He sent all of them to the hospital.

but maybe his camp traine dkrabi krabong which is weapon absed muay thai, or maybe he just outstriked them. Would you recommend striking and throwing similar type attacks with someone that has a weapon, when i suggested jabbing and keeping a moveon I was laughed at on mma.tv so who knows?

Also how credible can all those articles or enwsletters be of masters demosntrating their skill by defending themselve sor others agaisnt bandits when you hear of storie slike william cheung beating up 30 guys in some newspape rwhen he coudlnt even keep a fight standing still against Emin boztepe? Oh but it was a thai boxer, so it must be real right?

[SevenStar]

but maybe his camp traine dkrabi krabong which is weapon absed muay thai, or maybe he just outstriked them. Would you recommend striking and throwing similar type attacks with someone that has a weapon, when i suggested jabbing and keeping a moveon I was laughed at on mma.tv so who knows?

Also how credible can all those articles or enwsletters be of masters demosntrating their skill by defending themselve sor others agaisnt bandits when you hear of storie slike william cheung beating up 30 guys in some newspape rwhen he coudlnt even keep a fight standing still against Emin boztepe? Oh but it was a thai boxer, so it must be real right?

grappling with him would be more effective. anything involving thai boxing must be real.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like this hemroid guy ... he's fun.

[David Jamieson]

actually just for a larf...

when i worked the door at a particulary unsavoury bar back in my home town I had two partners that I worked with. Both of whom resembled coke machines with heads.

They sort of framed me like two pillars of concrete while I would do the diplomacy thing.

anyway, one guy Glen actually one armed a guy into the air buy his jacket collar and marched him out the door with his feet dangling. Glen was about 350+ and 6'7" or so...big dude.

The guy he carried out realized how humourous it looked and we got a pretty decent laugh out of it.

reason he got carried out was the he drunkenly took a swing at Glen...for some bizzare reason. anyway, stuffed him in a cab and that was that.

doing that job made me more and more want the drinking in public age raised after the ki9ds practiced maintaining drunkeness and a modicum of etiquette at teh same time. so about 32 yrs or so would do it I think. :p

[chud]

where is your club? Sounds like my kind of party...except for the hip-hop muzik. Actually, most of the clubs I hang out at would be considered "Biker Bars"sawdust on the floor,-live rock music,scantily clad women,and too much alcohol,Bikes, broads, and booze, and surprisingly enough, there are hardly any fights.


I'm not surprised you don't see that kind of thing at the biker bar, and that this particular incident happened at a hip hop club.
Here where I live there have been more and more of these fights that escalate into large numbers of people brawling; it's been all over the news lately. I never saw that kind of stuff when I was younger and going to clubs, it seems to be something that has become more common in recent years, and I blame today's hip hop culture. You have all these kids running around trying to be 'gangstas'. And now it's considered cool to have your friends join in and help you out when you fight; back in my day that was considered cowardice. People would say, "yeah he only got beat because the other guy was a wimp who had his friends jump in" and the guy would be looked down on for not being able to fight his own battles; now all you hear is "mah boys jumped in, they've got my back" and everyone folds their arms and nods defiantly. These punk ass little wanna-be hoods are nothing without a weapon and their friends.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not surprised you don't see that kind of thing at the biker bar, and that this particular incident happened at a hip hop club.
Here where I live there have been more and more of these fights that escalate into large numbers of people brawling; it's been all over the news lately. I never saw that kind of stuff when I was younger and going to clubs, it seems to be something that has become more common in recent years, and I blame today's hip hop culture. You have all these kids running around trying to be 'gangstas'. And now it's considered cool to have your friends join in and help you out when you fight; back in my day that was considered cowardice. People would say, "yeah he only got beat because the other guy was a wimp who had his friends jump in" and the guy would be looked down on for not being able to fight his own battles; now all you hear is "mah boys jumped in, they've got my back" and everyone folds their arms and nods defiantly. These punk ass little wanna-be hoods are nothing without a weapon and their friends.


lol. you are describing every single younger generation taht has come before.

It's not what they watch on tv or the music they listen too, it's that the youth want to be who they are and not conformed into the role laid out and expected of them.

Every teen goes through his rebellious years, and virtually every young man has the shortsightedness to not realize his limitations and ergo is quicker to take to task a fight in whatever format. That what it is to be a young man. The fastidious student who is a good boy is NOTt he norm.

in the eightes we had mods, seventies had rockers
60's had hippies, 50's had beatniks, 40's had jitterbugs, 30's we had ...well gangstas, 20's had flappers and so on and so on.

anyone else see a pattern? lol

[chud]

lol. you are describing every single younger generation taht has come before.



I understand what you're saying and your point is well taken, but I think it's even more acceptable today than ever before to act like a thug. Young people have grown up watching Eminem and think that bustin' a cap or rolling with all their homies when it's time to fight is not only acceptable, it's downright cool. :mad:
Maybe it's just where I grew up, but if you had other people do your fighting for you, you were considered a wimp and a coward. Not today. Maybe I'm just getting old. :confused:

[tug]

At least for me, I think this is what it is. I can't stand the younger generation of today. I know we and all the previous gens had their things too, but it does really seem much different these days. I also think part of the problem is that things are way too accessible for kids, and that gives them a false sense of "I can do whatever I want and not reap any consequences".

Did anyone hear about the kid who was jumped by 5 or 6 others, then broke free only to run into traffic to be hit and killed by a car while the attackers laughed?!?!

This just happened the other day in Brooklyn, not too far from where I live.

I read about ****e like this every single day and it just enrages me to the point where I hate everybody. A little too brutally honest, I know, but that's where I'm at today.

TuG.

[chud]

I read about ****e like this every single day and it just enrages me to the point where I hate everybody. A little too brutally honest, I know, but that's where I'm at today.

TuG.

I feel your pain TuG.
;)

[tug]

Thanks man. At least I'm not the only one. ;)

[SevenStar]

I understand what you're saying and your point is well taken, but I think it's even more acceptable today than ever before to act like a thug. Young people have grown up watching Eminem and think that bustin' a cap or rolling with all their homies when it's time to fight is not only acceptable, it's downright cool. :mad:
Maybe it's just where I grew up, but if you had other people do your fighting for you, you were considered a wimp and a coward. Not today. Maybe I'm just getting old. :confused:


what dj is saying is that to blame it on the music is a cop out. It's not because of the music. It's just the age in which we live, no different from kids from the eras he described earlier. In this day and age, the kids want to be seen as "hard" no matter what the cost. you disrespect me, you get shot or beaten by my crew and I. you bump into me, you WILL apologize. And don't make eye contact with me for too long. That tells me that you have a problem with me. A problem I know how to solve. That's the mentality they have today.

[rogue]

Than explain that to Tony Bauerand Paul Vunak among other instructors who train anvys eals and sepcial forces and who have alot more to say about this subject and authority than you do.

I will resist, I will resist, I will resist...

[rogue]

Than explain that to Tony Bauerand Paul Vunak among other instructors who train anvys eals and sepcial forces and who have alot more to say about this subject and authority than you do.

I will resist, I will resist, I will resist...

One thing that I will say is that there is a very big difference between someone who gives a seminar to people in the SO community and actually being one of them. Listen to the guys who actually do the job with first hand knowledge and not the guys who advertise that they "train" them.

7*,
How good are you guys at picking out the trouble makers on first sight?

[SevenStar]

I'm getting better at it. I look for the groups of guys that separate when one of us walks by, the guys with their heads down (usually smoking weed) a person in the stall facing an odd direction or being in there for abnormal length of times (weed), people that come in looking trashed when they enter, real thuggish looking guys who seem to be looking for trouble, reading people's body language, women who seem uncomfortable with the guy talking to them, couples having discreet arguments, etc.

[rogue]

7*,
Most of those sound familiar, I was never a bouncer but I learned a lot from the stage.
Good thing most of the trouble makers never learn how not to stand out in a crowd. The downside being most civilians have never learned to read those signs that will help keep them out of trouble.

[Oso]

Thanks man. At least I'm not the only one.

not by a long shot...I'm totally training to be one bas tard of and old dude...Knifefighter is my hero and I'm gonna grow up to be just like him ;)

Seven, glad you got out of this one with out too much of an injury. Sounds like things are heating up though.

Your bar sounds like one in Richmond called "The Flood Zone". 3rd floor was all rap and hip hop. Me and a bunch of my cousins went there one time after a wedding and the bottom two floors were lame so we went to the 3rd...we got a few funny looks but we didn't give a shiat and started dancing and then no one else gave a shiat either...people just need to stop giving a shiat and we'll all be better for it.


*****

RNC: grab the frikken hair and the chin usually comes up just fine. :D

I do wonder about the liability of taking someone completely unconscious though.
If they never woke up...or if they were drunk and puked while unconscious and aspirated it and died...too many variables and too many ambulance chasing lawyers. The second reason I quit bouncing was that the lawsuit threats were becoming too regular and while no one ever pursued one I would have been up **** creek w/o a lawyer. The first reason is I was just plain tired after doing 3-4 nights a week on top of a day job.

[neilhytholt]

I dunno ... this whole only 5 percent of people are actually arrested thing really makes one rethink the entire non-violence policy.

There is such a shortage of places you can actually spar in a realistic environment that it seems like perhaps mixing it up in a non inner-city club (someplace where everybody doesn't carry guns outside), isn't a bad idea to get some real fighting practice.

If people do get arrested for a fight in a club, is it a felony or a misdemeanor? If you talk to **** at somebody and they start swinging at you, and then you fight back, is the worst thing misdemeanor assault? Somebody said that open hand strikes are considered less bad than fist strikes in such a situation.

[Judge Pen]

If people do get arrested for a fight in a club, is it a felony or a misdemeanor? If you talk to **** at somebody and they start swinging at you, and then you fight back, is the worst thing misdemeanor assault? Somebody said that open hand strikes are considered less bad than fist strikes in such a situation.

It all depends on where you are, what damage is done and if you were justified in your actions. I wouldn't recommend it unless you can show, pretty clearly, that you had to fight to avoid getting hurt yourself.

[SevenStar]

I dunno ... this whole only 5 percent of people are actually arrested thing really makes one rethink the entire non-violence policy.

There is such a shortage of places you can actually spar in a realistic environment that it seems like perhaps mixing it up in a non inner-city club (someplace where everybody doesn't carry guns outside), isn't a bad idea to get some real fighting practice.

If people do get arrested for a fight in a club, is it a felony or a misdemeanor? If you talk to **** at somebody and they start swinging at you, and then you fight back, is the worst thing misdemeanor assault? Somebody said that open hand strikes are considered less bad than fist strikes in such a situation.

even those clubs sell beer, and thus bottles are available as weapons. Have you ever seen or had a bottle of moet swung at you? It's like a baseball bat.

The other thing you have to worry about, I think I mentioned earlier. We've had instances where guys have been jumped on the street because a bouncer put someone out of the club and then saw said bouncer outside the club on a different day.

[Crushing Fist]

especially being a trained martial artist... the way I hear it juries don't look well on MAists starting fights.


plays into the trouble maker karate guy stereotype

[Ray Pina]

Regarding your second point, if you only train unarmed combat you will enver be able to disarm someone no matter how much you spar. In order to be able to you ahve to spar unarmed vs someone who is armed and trying to hurt you not just play fight you.


I train principles using short stick, medium stick, long stick. The overriding princinple is "run the general away" In this case, the general is your hand. Most people swing and lead with their hand, the general. I swing and lead with my weapon.

I learned the principle, trained it a bit. I had a friend who went out west and studied kali for a few years, comes back and wants to impress me with his stick fighting. Yea, he trained stick fighting alright ... cut 1, cut 2, cut 3, etc, etc., etc.

Who's banging your stick back and forth like a lightsaber?

I said fine, why don't you grab one of my lacross gloves... he didn't understand the need for it but took it anyway. He whent looking to knock sticks with me and I wrapped my stick across his gloved hand making him drop it like it was on fire.

Principles trained realisticly enable you to judge distance, timing, read situations.... that carries over into everything. Fighting all out bare handed only helps in my opinion. It relaxes you on that moment.

He had alot more "stick" training than me, but it was all bull$hit. Who ever said anything about "playing?" I use that term as not to sound like an animal and say, "let's play," sounds better than fight, because fight is to kill. But I don't even spar anymore because I believe it develops bad habits. You either go all out or you drill. Putsing around only reinforces bad habits like di(king around and trading blows toe to toe. Go in and finish, or withdraw and wait. The in and out and in and out of sparring I do not like.

[neilhytholt]

especially being a trained martial artist... the way I hear it juries don't look well on MAists starting fights.


plays into the trouble maker karate guy stereotype

Well I wasn't planning on killing anybody, just getting some stand-up grappling practice in and maybe breaking an arm in the worst case scenario.

Anyways maybe the guy who said to up to Quebec and go into bars and start insulting the French Canadians was correct. Supposedly you just get deported.

[Ray Pina]

Some things I learned over the years that might help both parties:

Bouncers may pat you down and grab in your balls, but they've NEVER checked under my collar (button-downed shirt) for the joints or what have you taped in place just to get it in.

Another interesting spot that a razor or joint could be, is under the band of trendy, wide watch band.

Check dudes with Dread Locks, they can hide all sorts of stuff in there. Same goes for pony-tails.

A simple paper clip, unfloder half way can cut someone pretty bad and can be inserted into the soft part of someone's neck quite easily.

Other than that, it's always good to know where the exits are

[tug]

even those clubs sell beer, and thus bottles are available as weapons. Have you ever seen or had a bottle of moet swung at you? It's like a baseball bat.



Yes, it is, and yes I have, among other things. How about a beer mug? Those things hurt and don't break very easily either.

[tug]

Excellent. When we take over the world we will be merciful and let the younglings' death be slow and painful.

[FatherDog]

as opposed to a rear fully clothed choke? :D :D

In BJJ and Judo, most chokes from the back involve the gi. That one doesn't; it uses only the arms, so it's called a "rear naked choke", as opposed to the many "rear collar chokes".

[Judge Pen]

Anyways maybe the guy who said to up to Quebec and go into bars and start insulting the French Canadians was correct. Supposedly you just get deported.

LOL! Let me know if you're up for a road trip. :D