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FEELERSTRIKE
04-17-2006, 12:33 PM
Dear members,
I will address this to both Shifu & student ( even Shifu were students at one time ) .
Why is it that when a student decides that they nolonger wish to train that it is always the Shifu who people feel sorry for ?
Poor Shifu he has devoted so much time to the student for them to just stop . He has wasted his knowledge etc . Not many people think of the student and why they left .
Prehaps the style was not for them , work commitments , injury , moving away etc all these reasons are just an example .
Have any of you changed teachers in your careers , swapped styles ?
If so why ?
Are you wrong for doing this ?
Have you ever recieved hatred & ill feeling towards you from your ex-school ?
If so why?
I have trained in Northern Mantis Kung Fu since 1988 . I will admit that it has been a love hate relationship over the years with more hate than love .
At the time there was only two schools available here in the U.K. One in the north of England & one in the midlands . For me it was an easy choice as I lived in the midlands .
I was introduced to Sifu's school by a workmate who studied Karate and having never seen Mantis Kung Fu before was impressed . I joined two weeks later .
Please be aware that the U.K. at that time was very limited in Northern Mantis Boxing and quality Chinese Martial Arts altogether . If you wanted it you had to travel .
The class was very hands on with little emphisis on form training & lots on conditioning & full contact . Injuries were very painful & frequent .A small sylibus of forms were taught which increased over the coming years . A ten form sylibus was taught to black sash level in 1988 .
After a few years the only original class member that was left was the assistant instructor to the Sifu as the other black sash and senior classmate had suddenly stopped training .
The training went from one night aweek to five nights aweek with us training at any venue we could find big enough . As with all Martial Art schools the student turnover was huge , I lost count years ago .
Our school introduced Lion dancing to the area for the first time (all the lion kit was funded by the students as well as the hundreds of miles traveled over New Year to the venues) This brought a very good income into the school over the last 10 years . Regular social evenings where well attended with again the students picking up the tab .
As more weaponry became available these were purchased for the Sifu in order for him to teach us . We all had to purchase any kit needed through the school and on many occasions had to reorder as shipments never turned up .
As time continued so did the financial burden with the cost of gradings , lesson fees , weapons etc , somtimes the class was only one or two die hard students but we made sure the fees were paid to the Sifu.
As there was nothing else available in the U.K. on Mantis Boxing we took all our Sifu told us as fact .
We meet members of the other school as well as the old Wah Lum Mantis guys and some of the top students came to us for lessons and seminars , infact one instructor still attends seminars every year with members of his school to catch up on forms he was never taught .
In recent years with access to the internet & forums such as this more information was obtained which led students to ask questions about the training . It also helped to bring in many loyal students who turned up every training night .
When the chief instructor & only black sash left suddenly it caused a huge void which we tried to fill but within a month all the students had left . The constant hour long full contact sparring with the Sifu and the senior students horrified and frightened off the students , after one session one student left so shocked and disgusted by what he had seen that he never returned . He is one of the most respected Karate teachers in the country & a veteran full contact fighter .
Another senior student & chief instructor left that night . He was three months away from his black sash grading which required over 50 forms & which was fully paid . Two days off work and two months of physiotherapy were required. His grading fee has never been refunded & is in the hundreds of pounds .
That was in August 2005 & I will not & have not trained in Praying Mantis Kung Fu since .
I have recieved numerous threats over the months only to find a STATEMENT has been placed pointing a finger at two ex-students . Is this aimed at me ?
Before people take the Sifus side , I must ask you to think of the student .
Why do we walk away after 18 years and a huge financial burdon ? Have we good reason ? Is it the Sifu's fault ? Why is it the Sifu is always right ?
Prehaps something was discovered ?
Why is it O.K. for the ex-Sifu to continue a personal vendetta of hatred against his former long term students by trying to discredit them without cause ?
If all your senior students suddenly leave then as a Sifu you should sit down & start to ask yourself why ?
There is always two sides to a story .
I would like to add that the U.K. now has two other schools of Praying Mantis Boxing although we have lost the Wah Lum guys to another style , a great loss .

yu shan
04-17-2006, 01:48 PM
What happened to the Wah Lum group? They changed Mantis styles?

mantis108
04-17-2006, 02:00 PM
If you don't mind my asking, what exactly happened during the session that changed everything?

Some horrible accidents happened? Also could you describe the "sparring" format (ie rules, gears, etc...)

Sparring for training purposes should be fun and safe under the watchful eyes of the instructors especially nowadays. So.. I am just wonder what happened?

Regards

Mantis108

mantid1
04-17-2006, 02:40 PM
I have trained in different styles. I usually start training other styles because they have something to offer that my current style does not have. I do not stop practicing everything I learned in the last style. I may not practice all of the forms but I focus on the fundamentals and fighting theories of the styles. Just to completely give up on what I had learned would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.


I try to never burn bridges.

You have to remember that an instructor is just a person. There are good people and bad people. As an adult you should be able to make that determination after a short time. Right and wrong shoud be obvious.

If you stayed 18 years with that person you have to take some of the blame yourself.

Dont think that people really care about the sifu or feel sorry for him. Because they dont. Most people are only worried about themselves (including the sifu) it doesnt matter what they say.


I have to say it is a sad thing when students are taken in by a fraud instructor.

There are many self proclaimed mantis instructors out there so watch out.

Im not attacking you feelerstrike, I am sure you are a good person

FEELERSTRIKE
04-18-2006, 11:13 AM
Yu Shan,
It is a great shame but the last I heard was that they have gone over to the Choy Le Fot style here in the U.K. & some of them nolonger train , one owns a great martial arts supply company here called Gwan Gung . They were a great bunch of guys , we used to travel to them in Hinkley to teach them 7 Star for a while .
Mantid 1 ,
I agree I may have been to blame , I tried very hard to promote the school & my old Sifu where ever possible , we were good friends for many years . When I left an old student asked me to start up on my own but I would not out of respect .
I feel on reflection it was a money thing , with what the senior students knew we could have gone out on our own . With not much left to teach the money drys up as less and less students start, the school would have closed . It is funny that every ex-classmate I meet all left for some of the same reasons . Thanks for your point of view though , taken on board .
Mantis108,
Hello & your input is always valued . Club sparring rules well ?
1, the size of the hall is the size of the ring .
2, no protective equipment is used as you don't use it in the street .
3, No striking to the eyes .
4, No time limits as you don't have time out in the street .
Everything else goes , no holds barred , full contact until your opponent cannot get up ,use everything in cluding the walls .
If students are sparring then the one not giving 100% will have to sparr the instructor afterwards .
I should also mention that you have never fought until you have had to spar with an expert in mantis technique who is also wearing Timberland boots .

mantid1
04-18-2006, 12:12 PM
Feelerstrike

If you spent that much time in a system you should be able to teach it even more so if you were an assistant helping out with the teaching.

If you would not start your own school after having that much experience it seems that you did learn one important thing. It proves that you are a respectful person not starting you own club after the bad blood. Of course there is a good chance you learned respect from your parents.

This is opposite of what happens to me. I am usually open and the student thinks they are an instructor after a year or so of classes. That hurts as bad as being taken atvantage of by an instructor. This has not happened in my mantis classes but it did two times in my tai chi classes. Still trying to figure that one out.

Good luck my friend. We all move on sooner or later. It is nice when it can be done under good circumstances.

mantis108
04-18-2006, 02:54 PM
Hi Feelerstrike,

Thank you for lending your ears. :)

I shared the following thoughts on drills on the other board here in KFM. I would like to share it here as well to show my line of thoughts coming from.


Hi Taichi4eva,

Allow me to share my opinion on this interesting subject.

Japanese Karate regardless of style came from Okinawan Te which essentially is based on the Kung Fu blue print. But Japan Karate in general is more modernize and argueably innovative; while Okinawan Te is more inclined to stick with tradition. This is why we can look at Okinawan Te and see a remarkable resemblance to the structure of Kung Fu.

Now Kung Fu in my definition is not necessarily equivalent to Wushu (traditional or otherwise.) This is not intended to slight Wushu. This is just try to establish that Kung Fu is a sysyem on to its own.

Time wise, Kung Fu as a system emerges around Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Traditional Wushu such as Shuai Jiao, battle field weaponry, etc... would have been existed long before that. So in a way, Kung Fu is a systemized training of martial arts that includes hand to hand combat, weaponry and special knowledge (ie medical, military, shamanistic, Buddhist, Daoist, etc...) Later in Ming dynasty (1368-1644 CE) Southern Shaolin Kung Fu as a method emerges and mirgated to the North and along the eastern coastline. During Qing dynasty (1644-1911 CE) Kung Fu system flourished and new systems bloomed like wild flower. Amongst these "new comers", there is the Fujian Baihe (White Crane) which is my mind is one of the most innovative methods in the history of Kung Fu.

Although Fujian Baihe is innovative, it did not break away from tradition. It retains in general the whole structure of "southern Shaolin Kung Fu" which many of the Kung Fu styles (both north and south), and Karate (traditional and modern) still adhere to even today. What changed or rather lost is the special knowledge. The original message is no more intact. It has been substitued by just about anything but the classica Chinese civil education that once governed the development of Kung Fu. But that can't be help since the standard and model of education have changed.

Sorry about the long introdution but it's sets up the answers to the development of drills which are progress in the Kung Fu structure. Drills in Kung Fu are designed not only as physical challenge. There are also mental and emotional challenges to hone the stylist. It is truely the 3 battles (San Zhan). In a well designed system, there is a thread that link through the following aspects that form the physcial core of the Pugilistic system (Quan Fa):

Giban Gong - kihon (basics)

Taolu - kata (forms)

Shou Fa or San Da - kumite (sparring)

Giban Gong once upon a time was regarded as the most crucial and the time spent on that was the most. These days people don't spent that much time on them.

Single person drill (Dan Jiao) can include style specific or more generic combinations. It can serves as cardio and coordination training. Try some of the solo footwork drills from mantis. They are pretty dynamic.

The partnered 3 star block (Jia San Xing) in Northern Mantis is known as Kao Da (lean strikes). There are stationary and mobile drills of this and can be done in a line or in circles. It could be think of as mirror drills where both partners are doing the same moves mirrorring each other. The forces will be cancelled out. Kao Da came from old southern training method of Fanziquan IMHO. Then there are the shadow drills where each partner has 3 moves combo that counter each one in different orders. Usually, they are one or two moves behind each other; hence, shadowing. There are plenty more different drills.

You might also want to try some solo and partnered strength training drills such as Shuai Pa Hu (a cross between sprawling and puch up). Stone key lock or rice bag throwing. This area enhances the others especially when it comes to the Shuai (throws and takedowns) element and handling heavy weapons.

Forms are intermediatery of the other 2 and you can stay in that for a long time to come. It contains most if not all of the system's special knowledge. In the case of mantis, you have the Giban Gong that polished the moves in the forms even before you come to practice the forms.

Shou Fa or sparring, this is the most misunderstood part of TCMA. I think the easier explanation would be that it is a progressive process. In western terminology, there are one-step drills, option drills, interactive drills, and game drills that lead to sparring. Most Kung Fu styles have them. The idea is to introduce, isolate and intergrate a practical skill and technique set.

Anyway, some thoughts to share for now.

Warm regards

Mantis108

So you see I think it is more productive to have progressive means towards a productive goal. Training can be safe yet still retain the dynamics of a real situation. I believe that a lot of the "master" today fall victim to traditional machoism which btw is the impression that I am sensing from your post about your teacher's attitude. There's nothing inheritly wrong about that. It different people's personal temperments. However, when taking in the consideration of culture or paradigm shift that is ever happening in our society today, it is better to remember that we have a huge domesticated civilian demography.

To teach the general domestic public about fighting we need to be sensitive and attentive to their needs. Sparring is a good tool and lots of fun if we can keep pace, pressure and progression in sync with the level of competancy. The thing is even professional fighters don't go all out 100% all the time. If your Sifu can do that, then more power to him. Honestly, at a regular basis, it's not that productive in producing long term student IMHO. I also believe that it is the Sifu's job to "feed" the student moves and counters so that the student can learn the weakness of their game. That's more productive than to literally "beat the crap" or strike fear in order to "drill" it into the student. I guess I am not a fan of tough love approach any more. I don't know if that's because of age or that I have become a reformed machoist. ;)

Sorry about the rather long winded post but this is a pretty good topic. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108