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count
04-03-2001, 05:59 PM
Scarry stuff, :eek: How do you guys and gals deal with it? Does it overwhelm you? Do you love the thrill or hate it? This is a spill over from the bagua and UFC topic. I have had many experiences where the fear has saved my life. Should we be training to be fearless or should we be training to be courageous in the face of fear? Share some of your stories and let's see how fear has effected you!
@

Water Dragon
04-03-2001, 06:37 PM
I can post some personal stories later.

I think that everyone faces fear. It's actually a common topic on the NHB boards. The consensus is that the adreneline rush is always there. It doesn't go away. My personal experience verifies that. The question is what happens immediately after that response. Some people just fight and some freeze up. I've seen both.

With me, I get that rock twisting in the belly feeling with a "Oh my god what am I doing?" thought going through my head. After about 30 seconds, I calm down and am "serene" for lack of a better word. I become almost detached like I'm looking at what's going on without being involved. Strange, no?

On the streets, it's different. I get very wired and almost hyper. I think it has to do with the fact that a street situation has more variables and you have no idea what to expect. It's probably a psychological thing.

Fear is the one thing you get from full contact sparring that you absolutely CANNOT learn somewhere else. The other things gleamed can be taught in class but take signifigantly more time to develop without the feedback you receive from sparring. Fear cannot be reproduced in the kwoon to the same extent. You have to have someone who really wants to hurt you to bring out the response.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

razakdigital
04-03-2001, 07:30 PM
I realized that fear is something that cannot be avoided. It is about controlling that fear and making it your ally. Once you do that and you have faith in your skill...

That is what I'm working on...you see - any fool can try to hit someone with a Pa Kua Chang Palm strike ... but can you take the punch or the thought of the punch landing on you? Thats what my sifu works with me all the time... "to give you must receive"

"Fear is the one thing you get from full contact sparring that you absolutely CANNOT learn somewhere else. The other things gleamed can be taught in class but take signifigantly more time to develop without the feedback you receive from sparring. Fear cannot be reproduced in the kwoon to the same extent. You have to have someone who really wants to hurt you to bring out the response" - Water dragon

Mr Dragon you are on point...I mean you have to fight to know how to fight...books, videotapes, and internet chat will not help anyone with facing fear and using skill...

Hey count I hope you get some starts on this forum!!!

razakdigital
04-03-2001, 07:35 PM
I meant in my last post that I was hoping Count would get "stars" from this post...

One other thought that passed my mind...I've notice that in certain post that have to do with real usage of techniques and knowledge that less people post...(when I mean real info I'm real fights, friendly sparring, and tournaments)


just a thought

...It doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't call it violence when it's self- defense, I call it intelligence.

Water Dragon
04-03-2001, 08:01 PM
I don't think we ever will get as many people posting on those types of posts. The harsh reality is that most people don't even want to train correctly. Solid martial arts training is mundane, repetitive, boring, and uncomfortable at best. Usually it is painful. Honestly, I don't enjoy the training. I do it because of the results. I COULD do nothing but pretty forms and nice little cooperative 2 man drills and have a pleasant little CMA experience. I believe the classic term for that type of training is "Flowery Fists"

That's just the training. That is what you have to do before you even get into sparring. I like to talk to people that share my views on CMA with like minded people but have realized that most don't want that. People are happy with the illusion they have created for themselves because of the security it brings. That's fine. Maybe it is needed. Hopefully they will never have to test their dreaded Dim Mak abilities for real. Even if they are wasting their time, it does no good to try and argue as what you are taking away is their sense of security. They will fight to keep that until the end.

As far as fear, I don't think it can be an ally. I think you just learn to deal with it. It becomes familiar, and therefore manageable. Razak, what do you do when your on the street and a couple of thugs walk by. I would assume you notice them, keep them in your mind until they're gone and then go back t whatever you were doing. The fear is still there, it has just become very non-chalant and common. I guarantee a person born and raised in the 'burbs wouyld respond differently. It is a new experience to them.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Scarletmantis
04-03-2001, 08:25 PM
I have noticed a strange thing about myself concerning fear. When I'm at work (mental hospital), and something goes awry I rarely get that gut wrenching I'm-gonna-throw-up feeling. I just calmly observe the situation, things seem to slow wwwaaayyy ddddooowwwnnn... I have no trouble remaining relaxed and detached. I have noticed that most other people get very tense, and consequently very slow. My partner, if I'm lucky enough to have one, dosen't seem to have this ability. She'll let me initiate contact with a client in crisis because she knows I won't escalate the problem.

Now I've been in a street confrontation a couple of times, and these situations are TOTALLY different. Physically, things have really boiled down to a basic crisis (which I have been trained handle, and do, all the time) but my own fear response gets in the way. I'd really like to figure out what it is that's different about my mindset at work, and carry that with me all the time. I don't think that for me it's about variables, as WaterDragon suggested.

Perhaps it's really about pecking order. You see, my attitude at work (with the clients) is that I am top dog. It's not that I am threatening, or even particularly "bossy" with people. I FEEL self confident. I KNOW that I am in charge, I BELIEVE that if things get out of hand, I can deal with it, and come out on top. How to do that on the street? Is that even a good idea?

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

Sam Wiley
04-03-2001, 08:43 PM
I used to have a paralyzing fear of heights. If I came even close to a cliff or ledge I would panic and freeze. I remember going up onto the roof as a child to retrieve a football, and freezing when I looked down. I couldn't even climb down the ladder without encouragement from the other kids below and having two of them hold the ladder for me.

Yet about a week ago, I had to climb to the top of an outdoor sign (I did it to keep an amputee coworker from doing it) and didn't feel the slightest twinge of fear. On top of that, I flew in an airplane twice this past week, and had window seats, and didn't feel any fear then either. In fact, looking out the window was quite pleasant.

I don't think I would take any chances at great heights, but I'm no longer terrified by them for some reason. I mean I fell down a steep flight of stairs on my belly face first when I was a kid, and have fallen out of trees and off of roofs and stuff. I should still be paralyzed when it comes to being up high, but I'm not.

And I think the reason is my martial training. I've lost teeth from getting hit in the mouth, broken my knee, dislocated my elbows and wrists, and I keep coming back for more. Maybe it's because I have been hurt and have fallen so many times now that I've grown insensitive to the fear. I think that's at least part of it.

In any case, I really don't have all that much fear when it comes to facing another person any more, though I used to. I could meet someone for a challenge and never bat an eye. Maybe if I went into the ring with someone trying to take my head off I would feel fear or stagefright again. I am sure I would, but at least I have a better way of dealing with it now...breathing.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

count
04-04-2001, 03:13 PM
Fear goes back to our caveman ancestors and it comes from something that is unknown. It comes in many different forms and phobias ranging from the rational to the irrational. There are fears that lurk in the back of the mind and ones that are brought on suddenly in certain situations. This topic is developing nicely! For my first post I would address fear as it directly relates to martial arts. Later I would like develop other directions like the fear of heights, which by the way Sam, I have overcome in my life as well.

When you are facing an opponent in a tournament or a fight. You don't know what's going to happen. There is a moment before a fight when you become clammy and shaky. The pit in your stomach can almost weigh you down. The noise around you becomes muffled and loud at the same time. Your vision is blurred and it becomes difficult to swallow. Your arms feel like lead and you can't even lift them. You feel like your knees can't support you and you just want to turn and run.

Once the first contact is made you become very focused. I remember times when I was the first one to get hit. After it was over and I was still standing I knew the other fighter didn't have a chance. Or other times when I hit first and realized I had the skills and training that would pull me through. In that instant you make the decision to fight. The adrenaline kicks in and everything moves in slow motion. I become very alert to what is going on around and tuned into myself. I can hear people in the crowd shouting for me or the other guy. Every word became clear. Everything is slowed down in my mind. More time = more reactions.

But what happens when the other fighter is better than you? Stronger, quicker and more prepared. You get hit and you are hurt. What do you do then? It's happened to me.

Fighting is the ultimate way of embracing your fears and overcoming them.


:eek:

Zhin
04-04-2001, 06:06 PM
Little Story...

I was walking the circle in Chinatown when some random guy sat down. You can guess what happened from there. He tried to "Sneak up" behind me, and that's when the first palm change came in. Then I was behind him. When he realized it, he turned around, and that's when I saw it. I saw *FEAR* in his eyes.

I can't exactly explain it, but the realization that he was afraid made me unafraid. I suppose learning martial arts in the first place was a fear based reaction of being beaten up in high school. After taking martial arts, the fear was that my arts were ineffective, or that I was wasting my time. I had never tested them after all. The palm change came naturally, and the effect was perfect, my fears were unfounded. I could have taken him then, and maybe I should have, but I didn't. His fear was enough.

He backed off very quickly, and then challenged me to a sword duel of all things. That actually made me laugh, since having a background in Kendo, I have never been worried about smacking someone with a sword. It also made me laugh since a sword duel sounded ludicrous. I accepted, and we were to meet the next day at dawn. I also seriously doubted he'd show up, but I had to, simply to put the cement to the growing confidence I had gotten from the experience to that point.

The end result is that I spent a restless night, and got up in the morning, grabbed a bokken and headed to the park. Ain't nothing like that feeling. The second I stepped outside into the cold air, and realized... "I have a sword, and I am going to fight someone with it", all the nerves were gone. Maybe it just seemed too unreal. I don't know how to explain it, but I have not had a problem since then. I'm simply not afraid anymore.

Since that time I've sought out aggressive sparring partners and never have I flinched or worried. I've been in violent situations and sometimes my demeanor has been enough to convince people to back off. Sometimes it's been my elbows.

I have also learned to exploit the fears of others, and that's a huge advantage.

Fear, btw, is not the same as adrenaline.

Scarletmantis
04-04-2001, 08:14 PM
A Sword !?!? Good God man! Did the guy show up? That is by far the weirdest "Street Fight" story I have ever heard. Sounds pretty cool, I wish it would happen to me. Anybody wanna challenge me to a duel? You are awesome! :)

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

Zhin
04-04-2001, 09:44 PM
No, he didn't show up, but the cops did, doing their early morning sweep for homeless people. Luckily I brought the wooden rather than steel one.

It's undoubtedly one of the weirder things I've done. And the best part is, I told my wife that I had a duel the next day, and all she said was "Don't get arrested if you kill him".

Man, I love her.

wujidude
04-05-2001, 01:27 AM
Yeah Scarlet . . . here's my challenge. You show me a single decent bar with microbrews in Dulzura, and I'll buy every round. Last man standing, OK?

PS .. . any decent hotels there in San Diego County?

PlasticSquirrel
04-05-2001, 02:54 AM
that's the first time i've heard anyone actually say that they don't enjoy their training. to be honest with you, i don't enjoy it all that much either. it's all about the end results for me, and that's what keeps me going. i even make it a point to read a couple excerpts of legends out of books once in awhile to keep me motivated so i want to train more. it's that prospect of being able to be the perfect fighter, like sun lu-tang that keeps me going. the more i've been training lately, though, the more i want to, because i get more results.

Water Dragon
04-05-2001, 03:26 AM
Well, Squirrel...
Part of it has to do with the fact that I am lazy. Yup, I admit it. I can't really look forward to an hour of pain after a 12 hour day at work. But, after I threw my brother-in-law last weekend it's all worth it. Esp. since he outweighs me by about 40 lbs and I got him over my back no problem. It's a good feeling when you get to the point where you can do this stuff on a resisting opponent. But still, 100 reps of Southern Mantis coiling followed by 100 reps of Baji coiling followed by 20 reps of the hip throw form followed by 50 reps of belt cracking followed by the same number of reps of the diagonal cutting throw followed by 50 reps of bag snapping JUST IS NOT FUN. And when I get my heavy bag up it's gonna suck even more. And that's just the Yang part. My Yin days are worse as they wear my mind out too for some reason.

Yes, I just got done working out, that's why I'm whining.

--edited part--

I forgot about stance training at the end. See, I hate it that much I tend to forget about it until it's "that time". And then, I sit there looking at the **** clock trying to convince myself the 2 min 15 seconds isn't really that long.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[This message was edited by Water Dragon on 04-05-01 at 06:34 PM.]

razakdigital
04-05-2001, 04:17 AM
"I don't think we ever will get as many people posting on those types of posts. The harsh reality is that most people don't even want to train correctly. Solid martial arts training is mundane, repetitive, boring, and uncomfortable at best. Usually it is painful. Honestly, I don't enjoy the training. I do it because of the results. I COULD do nothing but pretty forms and nice little cooperative 2 man drills and have a pleasant little CMA experience. I believe the classic term for that type of training is "Flowery Fists""

Good for you ... I love what you wrote...fear is no joke friend...thats why I bug out on discussions on fantastic discovery of chi and discussions on this and that...training is hard and sometimes boring but its about results...

"As far as fear, I don't think it can be an ally. I think you just learn to deal with it. It becomes familiar, and therefore manageable. Razak, what do you do when your on the street and a couple of thugs walk by. I would assume you notice them, keep them in your mind until they're gone and then go back t whatever you were doing. The fear is still there, it has just become very non-chalant and common. I guarantee a person born and raised in the 'burbs wouyld respond differently. It is a new experience to them."

You are correct on the Thug part because that is a reaction I have for thugs and cops...

ope
04-05-2001, 05:19 AM
Those are some great posts i must admit.. infact everyones post are pretty good.. there is nothing much i can add because everyone pretty much covered it :) what i can say from my own experience is that for me fear always comes first but once i get into the fight it quickly goes away.. Water dragon: "i don't think we ever will get as many people posting on those types of posts. The harsh reality is that most people don't even want to train correctly. Solid martial arts training is mundane, repetitive, boring, and uncomfortable at best. Usually it is painful. Honestly, I don't enjoy the training. I do it because of the results. I COULD do nothing but pretty forms and nice little cooperative 2 man drills and have a pleasant little CMA experience. I believe the classic term for that type of training is "Flowery Fists""

This is a great point! we train traditionaly well i would like to think so and it is very painfull.. it must be this way the pain conditions your mind.. i as well do it to get results.. i stand in horse stance for 30 minutes every day before i start training to help me warm up after that i throw 500 kicks to warm up my legs... for my last grading i had to stand in horse stance for 5 hours.. and that is just baby stuff i had to as well have sticks little thinker then a mop stick broken over my shoulder and my leg while i stand in horse stance.. and usualy twice a week we have to run up to our instructor and he swings a sword at us and we have to be able to move out of the way and he does combination swings like he swings high then low then down.. at first its very scary (well the beginners he doesnt use a sword he starts off with a stick) but after a while it becomes like nothing.. and when some one in the streets pulls out a sword instead of freezing i can deal with the situation.. infact there is some stuff that my instuctor doesnt make new people who join do.. because it scares them alot and you have to be very open minded to do it..

SanHeChuan
04-07-2001, 04:09 AM
i think that my natual reaction has allways been to confront my fear, and in some cases to use it to my advatage.

as a kid when i was afraid of a moster in my room i'd turn on the lights and go looking for.
If a friend jumped out and scared me, i'd yell back at them.

all though i've never been in a "real" fight(and by real i mean life threatning) where i was afraid i think that my fear (and reacation to fear) would serve to help and not hinder my fight.

Although i'm still afraid to talk to chicks :) and my fears arn't helping me ther :mad:

(by the way i haven't read most of the post that have come before mine

Civilize the mind but make savage the body