8 Step - 6 Essential Forms

[DocWho]

If any 8 Step practitioner(s) can provide further insight on the essential forms (1-6). From what I have read in the archives, it is the heart of the 8 Step Praying Mantis system created by Master Chiang Hua Long with Master Wang Zhong Qing and Master Chen De Shan. It combines Plum Blossom Praying Mantis with Bagua, Hsing-Yi and Tong Bei.

I did not find any in depth information on these forms. Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

The Zhai Yao (essentials) sets in any system (except Liuhe where we do not have any zhai yao) are considered the essential or standard movements/techniques of any style. Babu, Qixing, and Meihua all have them.
Jake :)

[DocWho]

Three Harmonies - Thanks for you the brief description.

In my discovery I found what master John Chang wrote in his website best describle 8 Step Praying Mantis http://www.8-step.com/info_articles_internal.htm (Internal Mantis). It is very fascinating to see 8 Step resemble closer to an internal art rather than an external art.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Doc?
I personally try not to fall into the internal/external thing too much. But from the angle you are observing it at I would agree that it is softer than many of the other styles. The only arguable one would be Liuhe Tanglang.
Mr. Chang's site is very informative, and from what I understand he is quite the practitioner.
Cheers
Jake :)

[mantis108]

I believe while it is true that Tanglangquan styles in general don't share similar mechanics to Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi; it is not true that all other Tanglangquan except 8 Step are external. In fact, I don't buy the internal Vs external business. All Kung Fu are internal and external at the same time (Yinyang). If it's not there is something seriously lacking in the style IMHO.

That's a personal opinion not criticism or attack. :)

Mantis108

[DocWho]

Thanks for the opinions and different perspectives. It broadens my understanding of the praying mantis system.

[bungbukuen]

I think the terms internal/external and hard/soft can apply to any system. The problem is that people use these words without knowing their contextual meaning, or worse yet, without actually knowing anything about the system that is being discussed. Here are my simple ideas on in the matter.

Internal = qigong training methods. External = all other combative training methods. Most if not all traditional Chinese martial art (TCMA) systems incorporate both. Praying Mantis is no exception. The matter of how and when it is incorporated into the training regime is another matter for discussion. But I think it is short sighted to label systems as being only external or internal, or more internal or extenral.

Hard and Soft is a distinction of Fighting Strategy. Hard = direct attack strategy. Soft = indirect attack strategy. All TCMA systems use both direct and indirect strategies and Mantis is no exception. Some people mistakenly use the words hard and soft interchangeably with external and internal, which causes confusion. Hard and soft are concepts of fight strategy and have nothing to do with conepts of cultivating and moving qi. It is also too hasty to label a system as being some relative degree of hard or soft without truly understanding the complete mix of strategy, tactics, and techniques specific to that system. Watching a single form and judging the overall strategy of the entire system on it is a big no no.

[K.Brazier]

Hi bungbukuen,


"Internal = qigong training methods. "

This definition appies to the term nei gung or internal attainment.
It is differnt from the term nie jia or internal family(of boxing).

I think I posted the original definitions of internal and external as they first appeared in Chinese boxing in another thread.



"Hard and Soft is a distinction of Fighting Strategy. Hard = direct attack strategy. Soft = indirect attack strategy."

Here is how hard and soft were defined in the keywords definitions of short strikes (yin and ran are different types of hard and soft which don't easily translate into words besides hard and soft).


"Gang, rou, yin and ran(hard, soft, yin and ran).
That which is hard can not be bent.
That which is yin can not be broken.
Soft is like a branch that flutters in the wind whipping back and forth with no escape.
Ran is like the winding waters soaking into the sand. There is no place that they can not enter."



" Some people mistakenly use the words hard and soft interchangeably with external and internal, which causes confusion."

I agree.

Kevin

[mantis108]

I believe the Zhai Yao, especially the first Routine, of Greater Meihwa Line tradition quite possibly came form Liang Xue Xiang around 1868 CE and onwards. I based this assumption on 2 facts:

1) In both Quanpu of Liang dating 1842 CE and 1852 CE, there seems to be no mentioning of Zhai Yao. So it's likely that it has not been created yet at the time.

2) One of the early students of Liang Xue Xiang was Sun Yuanchang (1857- 1935 CE) who learned Tanglang from Liang at age 11. In Sun' line There is at least the first routine of Zhai Yao that I learned from GM Chui is has about 5 roads instead of the 4 roads that's commonly found today.

It is also believed that Zhai Yao is based on Mizhou 90 hands that is mentioned in the "Ke Shi You Yong" manuscript (1852). My impression of 8 Step's first Zhao Yao is vaguely resemble the first road of other GML schools. I have an idea of the other five routines looked like of the GML but I have no clue of the other 5 of the 8 Step school.

I also have see a DVD of the 8 Step first routine of Zhai Yao with applications. It's rather interesting but I come away with an impression that the applications are more about trapping and striking than anything else which btw much of them can be found within other mantis schools. They are kind of intricate but I didn't see much of Shan (dodge) Zhuan(turn) Tang(leap) Nuo(shift) which are 4 of the 12 keywords that 8 Step used. So I am a bit at a lost with that demonstration of the application of 8 Step Zhai Yao.

Again this is not an attack or critisicism. I am just puzzled about how the 12 words fits into their forms and applications. So may be the experts in the 8 Step would be kind enough to enlighten me who believe that 8 Step is quite a unique style. Thanks. :)

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the thoughts. I think it would help if we talk a little bit about where your definition came from.

Here's the Chinese text

短打緊要：
進退虛實 躥跳出入 閃轉騰挪 開合收閉 長短起落 剛柔硬軟 各有所長 慎勿疏忽
夫短打之要訣 總是八八六十四門 九九八十一變化 有中門三十二 左右三十二 知此
門路方可入手 化者 入手而變也 亦可變化乃至無窮矣

This is IMHO definitely one of the most important aspect of mantis fighting theory and it is written without a doubt with the knowledge in advanced classical education.

Warmest regards

Robert

[lapu_squared]

Very interesting thread. Words like "internal" and "external" are just such clumsy placeholders for concepts that can be difficult to describe verbally. In 8 Step, we use "internal" as shorthand for certain concepts. Another style might use "internal" as shorthand for somewhat different concepts. So, I'd like to clarify what "internal" means to me as one of Shifu John Chang's students.

To me, there are 2 kinds of "internal"--mental and physical. "Mental internal" is shorthand for practice that works almost entirely on the mind, such as meditation and certain aspects of Qigong. "Physical internal" is shorthand for certain principles that add efficiency to physical movements. I don't think 8 Step is unique in "mental internal" arts. However, 8 Step does focus more heavily than usual on "physical internal" arts. The focus on "physical internal" principles is the reason 8 Step was created, and the reason why Hsing Yi, Bagua, and Tong Bei are so foundational to 8 Step.

Having an internal focus doesn't make 8 Step any better than any other style. There are benefits of an internal focus, but there are also drawbacks. For example, 8 Step doesn't have as many forms or as wide a variety of techniques as many other Mantis styles. 8 Step can also be very boring to many people, since practice is sometimes almost as slow as Taichi and the amount of detail spent on every little movement is excessive. Also, it generally takes longer for people practicing any internally-focused style to be as effective as people practicing more externally-focused styles. Styles that have a more "external" focus spend less time on every little detail about body movements and spend more time learning applications and techniques. Ultimately, every style has both internal and external elements. The differences are just in emphasis.

From my point of view, hard and soft is just another trade-off, just like internal and external, mobility and stability, speed and accuracy, etc. Every style has some amount of both, and it's just a matter of choice as to where each style focuses on the spectrum between the two extremes. Generally, 8 Step is a bit softer than most of the other styles I've run into, Mantis or otherwise. Soft and hard principles have different pro's and con's. From my viewpoint, soft principles concentrate on closing in on the opponent, feeling their intentions, and controlling them, while hard principles concentrate more on repelling the oponnent and inflicting damage. I don't know that the 12 soft can be truly visible in forms or applications. They're more just principles baked into the movements used in techniques. The difference is obvious when you feel it, but isn't always visible.

But getting back to DocWho's original question, the 6 sections (Zhai Yao) are common to all Mantis styles, as Three Harmonies said. Of course, there are differences in 8 Step's Zhai Yao, just as there are differences between all styles or even branches within styles. However, in my opinion, these differences are not at the heart of what makes 8 Step unique. The primary difference in 8 Step is simply how the movements themselves incorporate "physical internal" principles from styles like Hsing Yi, Bagua, and Tong Bei. Differences in the forms, techniques, and applications are--at least in my opinion--not as significant as the differences in body movement.

[DocWho]

I have been busy for the last few days and did not get chance to visit this forum. But I want to thank you all and to express my gratitude on the wealth of information shared on this thread.

All of you have provided me with a deeper insight into 8 Step Praying Mantis, Greater Meihwa Praying Mantis, Internal/External MA and history of Zhai Yao.

Also I viewed the excellent video clips from 8-step.com and babutanglang.com that were performed by Master Zuo Xian Fu, Master Wang-Jie and the late Grand Master Wei. After view the clips and reading lapu_squared's last thread, I came away with a better understanding 8 Step Praying Mantis.

Are there more video clips of Grand Master Wei, his students or others performing
8 Step?

Thanks,

[Chizica]

There are some great books available from the following links:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/lb_kungfu1.htm#210

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_trad5.htm -- listed as Practical Praying Mantis - TC 502


I do have both books, and they are written in Chinese. As I cannot read Chinese yet, it doesen't do a whole lot of good, but they are nice to have.

[lapu_squared]

DocWho: We have a few more videos of GM Wei's students on the way. They'll be posted on 8-step.com once we have everything ready.