Anti Grappling Link

[lawrenceofidaho]

This link was posted on another forum, and thought it might be of interest to some here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5698924315871894275&q=ving+tsun&pl=true

[GungFuHillbilly]

Thanks for the link Lawrence!

I don't know the context of this clip (i.e., what they were originally trying to demonstrate)...however...

I would be curious to know what training the 'aggressor' had in grappling.

His shoots seemed to not be very aggressive and during some of the engagements when he was trying to force a joint lock the guy in the white shirt had some pretty huge openings that could have been easily exploited.

On a more general note about this topic...

IMHO one of the real weaknesses I see with a lot of martial arts schools is that the students attack each other using various 'styles' and they assume that this is a viable substitute for an attack by a competent fighter from that 'style'.

For example...a wing chun student with no background in boxing is asked to attack another student using a 'boxing hook' so that they can simulate defenses against boxing.

Exercise ensues and everyone feels warm and fuzzy because they feel they can now engage a boxer on the street and hold their own.

The same holds true for grappling...

I'm not saying that everyone has to go grapple with a Machado or Gracie in order to learn defenses against grappling. Just don't think that because you were able to defend yourself against Joe Schmoe [wing chun student with no other experience], that you can hold your own against a competent grappler.

Anyway, just a diatribe...

Any thoughts, comments?

-GFH

[reneritchie]

I wonder if BJJ forums post anti-standup links??

[lawrenceofidaho]

I wonder if BJJ forums post anti-standup links??
That's funny, but it's also kind of a sad....... :(

99% of the BJJ community do not consider cross-training "unnecessary", or worse, a "disrespectful affront to to their perfect and complete art" the way that some Wing Chun people do. I'm sure there are more than a few Wing Chun teachers that wouldn't encourage a student to do some training in other arts simply out of fear that it might possibly affect the rice bowl. (Lacking in confidence in their own abilities, it seems.)

[lawrenceofidaho]

His shoots seemed to not be very aggressive and during some of the engagements when he was trying to force a joint lock the guy in the white shirt had some pretty huge openings that could have been easily exploited.

I agree. Those were not the most realistic attacks.


IMHO one of the real weaknesses I see with a lot of martial arts schools is that the students attack each other using various 'styles' and they assume that this is a viable substitute for an attack by a competent fighter from that 'style'.
Might be okay for introducing techniques and some low level drilling, but real competency will not be achieved that way.


Exercise ensues and everyone feels warm and fuzzy because they feel they can now engage a boxer on the street and hold their own.
This is very irresponsible on the part of the instructor who would do this kind of cr@p, but unfortunately, I think this kind of practice is somewhat common.


I'm not saying that everyone has to go grapple with a Machado or Gracie in order to learn defenses against grappling. Just don't think that because you were able to defend yourself against Joe Schmoe [wing chun student with no other experience], that you can hold your own against a competent grappler.
If someone hasn't been on the mat with an athletic guy who has a purple or higher in Jiu Jitsu, or wrestled his way through the state championships in HS (or through college on a scholarship), etc. -they may very well be overestimating their abilities to deal with grappling attacks. The type of anti-grappling training done by many strikers will, at best, prepare them to deal with a drunken frat-boy tackle and perhaps a few aikido style locks they used to teach to cops & security guys (a couple of those types of things were seen in the video) -but overall, not much more than that. (There are some schools / orgs. which are exceptions, however.)

[GungFuHillbilly]

Might be okay for introducing techniques and some low level drilling, but real competency will not be achieved that way.


If someone hasn't been on the mat with an athletic guy who has a purple or higher in Jiu Jitsu, or wrestled his way through the state championships in HS (or through college on a scholarship), etc. -they may very well be overestimating their abilities to deal with grappling attacks.

I'm very much in agreement here. I'm not saying that wing chun schools should only train wing chun attacks...however I think a healthy perspective and realization that it is not wholly representative of different 'styles' of attack.

If your training with a beginning student your intent (energy) should be different than when you train your advanced students.

I think one of the problems is that most students don't feel comfortable ATTACKING 'the Sifu' in a realistic aggressive manner. Thus why the net is innundated with Sifu's who can magically beat the living cr@p out of their students and never once get hit!!! All the while making it seem like they are friggin' invincible...

That's why I think it's key to find a neutral ground where there's no sifu dynamnic and everyone can get past their egos.

I had a great situation when I lived in Phoenix, AZ. A friend of a friend trained under Christof Lindinger and was a really proficient grappler. We would all get together and just trade. He was really good about helping out and not letting you get away with junk.

-GFH

P.S. Lawrence, give a shout out to Justin for me. It's been too long...
Thanks!

[lawrenceofidaho]

I'm very much in agreement here. I'm not saying that wing chun schools should only train wing chun attacks...however I think a healthy perspective and realization that it is not wholly representative of different 'styles' of attack.

If your training with a beginning student your intent (energy) should be different than when you train your advanced students.

I think one of the problems is that most students don't feel comfortable ATTACKING 'the Sifu' in a realistic aggressive manner. Thus why the net is innundated with Sifu's who can magically beat the living cr@p out of their students and never once get hit!!! All the while making it seem like they are friggin' invincible...
Very well said.......


That's why I think it's key to find a neutral ground where there's no sifu dynamnic and everyone can get past their egos.
Or even better, -find a Sifu with no "sifu dynamic."

[Mr Punch]

The shoot in that video was terrible, as was the sprawl. Definitely nothing that will prepare you for a grappler, and a drunken fratboy would have a way more energetic and dangerous tackle than that.

I don't see the point of the halfhearted sprawl just so you can say you're staying on your feet. If you can't grapple, why not at least learn a decent sprawl sp you can sprawl his head into the concrete and then get up and kick him before you run away? Rather than that half-arsed nonsense that'll still get you dropped.

As for the locks, they were bs too. The point about the locks that LEOs are taught is that they are put on from a position where they already have your balance, where there are more than one of them, or where they are using a baton of some kind for extra leverage.

Why is it that wing chun people often assume that other people are always stupid enough to attack with two arms on one from a weaker position just because it's a staple no-no in wing chun principles? Nobody but a six-month aikidoka is gonna try a flying armbar (ikkyo) or small joint manipulation without setting it up with a punch or an unbalance (kuzushi) first. And I for one, am not afraid of anything a six-month aikidoka's got anyway! :D

All in all, this vid demo is pretty pointless. It shows defence against retards with no fighting skills.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mat's post about the vid is right on the money.

As for Sifus who encourage their students to do their best against them while sparring/rolling/chi sao, etc...as opposed to Sifus who don't...

the second group are a joke, imo.

But I have found through the years that the best way to go about this has to be an approach wherein all the possibilities are covered - and at the right moments.

There are times when I want my students to offer little or no resistance to what I'm doing - as a means of drilling and/or teaching others who are watching (as well as the student who's on the receiving end)...

and there are times when I want them to go at me with their "best shot" so that we can all see what happens.

AND ALL POSSIBLE SHADES OF GRAY IN-BETWEEN have their place also - depending upon what the lesson plan goal is at that moment.

And here's the biggest payoff to allowing one's students to offer complete resistance on a regular basis:

YOU FIND OUT WHAT REALLY WORKS - WHAT DOESN'T - AND WHAT ADJUSTMENTS HAVE TO BE MADE.

[stricker]

lots of coaches in mma boxing muay thai even judo bjj etc wouldnt last very long if all their students went 100% with them hahaha.

allso the only way i see to get over the bad boxing bad wrestling problem is to go out and D I Y

[GungFuHillbilly]

There are times when I want my students to offer little or no resistance to what I'm doing - as a means of drilling and/or teaching others who are watching (as well as the student who's on the receiving end)...

and there are times when I want them to go at me with their "best shot" so that we can all see what happens.

AND ALL POSSIBLE SHADES OF GRAY IN-BETWEEN have their place also - depending upon what the lesson plan goal is at that moment.

Hello Victor,

Good thoughts...yes, the intent and energy of any particular lesson is going to be context specific...

My point was that IF you are going to make a vid clip about defenses against grappling are you going to choose a student that has little to no real skill? And then when you come out looking like uber gung fu man...would you really want that posted on the net as an example of what you do?

Again, I don't know the context of why this clip was shot...I just thought it was a rather stinky demonstration of grappling AND wing chun.

However, at the same time I think many of us here feel that it is a neglected subject for the majority of wing chun schools...

-GFH

[GungFuHillbilly]

lots of coaches in mma boxing muay thai even judo bjj etc wouldnt last very long if all their students went 100% with them hahaha.

allso the only way i see to get over the bad boxing bad wrestling problem is to go out and D I Y

First let me say that if you are a student and everyone time the instructor asks you to help with a demo you try and take his head off...you probably have a real ego problem and need to empty your cup.

The intent/energy you feed your instructor is going to depend on the context.

It also depends on the context of the learning (i.e., are you a pro boxer, an olympic/collegiate wrestler, a student learning self-defense, etc.) that calls for different interactions.

I'm fairly certain that Tyson in his prime was not sparring 100% against Cus...

However, if my Sifu tells me he wants to shoot a clip of defenses against certain types of attacks...I sure as hell am not going to be timid or weak just to make him look good.

Also, if my Sifu can't outmatch me then why would I be training with him?

If that were the case I'd find another coach/instructor...

Just my thoughts.

-GFH

[jmdrake]

Well I suppose I'm the lone dissenter here, but I don't think those shots were all that bad. Both times the aggressor got low and shot in deep. And the moved he tried to use to spin around the sprawl was decently executed too. The simple fact is that it's not easy to shoot against someone who has half a clue how to defend a shoot if he's expecting you to shoot on him. I sincerely don't think the aggressor represents someone with "little or no skill". He probably wasn't a purple belt but he could have easily been a blue belt. Does this one video clip mean the defender is ready for the UFC? Of course not. But he looks to be realisticly developing skills against an opponent at a similair skill level using techniques that work. That's the same thing anyone in a BJJ school would do. (Yes, sometimes white belts and blue belts go against purple belts, but most of the time they go against other white belts and blue belts). I'll admit that the standing joint locks look cheesy, but that's probably because...standing joint locks are cheesy. Anyway, I don't know if this really qualifies as an "anti grappling" link. The defender is using basic grappling to defend grappling.

The "armbar defense" was laughable though. I've never seen anyone do an armbar from the position shown. Usually one leg is over the face and all the way to the floor. Also typically the defender would need to keep his arm bent before attempting to roll out. Doing what he did is asking to get your arm broke against someone competent.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Edmund]

The shot was in on his leg which was good but he didn't do enough to finish it. 9/10 times you can't just drive to finish a single leg shot which is why I found the comments that he wasn't energetic enough amusing. A little bit of wrestling technique would have helped a lot more.

The more he drives the more the other guy can just sprawl out.

[Knifefighter]

LOL at people criticizing what was actually not a bad example of takedown defense.

While the guy shooting is not a world beater in terms of takedowns, he did most of his attack somewhat correctly. He worked a distraction set-up up top, changed levels, took a bit of a “half man” angle and got a pretty good penetration step into his opponent. He even worked to cut the corner once he had secured the leg, although the entire takedown should have been worked from a double leg. Overall, not a bad takedown attempt- lots of submission grapplers never get past this stage.

His big mistake was not going for the double in the first place and then keeping his head down and on the outside when performing a single leg. These are very common mistakes. Head placement and set-up differences between double, single, and high crotch takedowns are confusing for even intermediate level grapplers. The defender did exactly what he was supposed to do in that situation- cross face. That is a perfect example of what to do if your opponent makes the common mistake of having his head on the outside when attempting a single leg takedown.

Overall, I’m betting both of these guys have some basic freestyle/folkstyle wrestling experience (the attacker's sit out counter-attack showed that he definitely has had some wrestling training) and probably know more about takedowns and defense than most of the people criticizing the clip.

[stricker]

lots of coaches in mma boxing muay thai even judo bjj etc wouldnt last very long if all their students went 100% with them hahaha.

allso the only way i see to get over the bad boxing bad wrestling problem is to go out and D I YFirst let me say that if you are a student and everyone time the instructor asks you to help with a demo you try and take his head off...you probably have a real ego problem and need to empty your cup. er dont know if im taking this wrong but was that an attack on me??:confused: :eek: funny cos both my teachers often choose me to demo stuff with ... anyway forget about it.


I'm fairly certain that Tyson in his prime was not sparring 100% against Cus...yup good exmaple of what i said earlier ;)

[Avelardo]

Overall, I’m betting both of these guys have some basic freestyle/folkstyle wrestling experience (the attacker's sit out counter-attack showed that he definitely has had some wrestling training) .

That was an interesting video and I agree with Knifefighhter. It appeared that both guys had some wrestling experince and I thought that the guy in the white shirt was the better grappler. He did a good job in countering the single leg take downs and your right KF the guy in the gray shirt should have gone for a double-leg takedown which we call in BJJ "Baiana". The guy in the gray shirt exposed his back at least twice and the other guy had his back at least once but did not know what to do.If he had some BJJ training he could have easily gone for a rear mount, put the hooks in, apply the stranglehold and sing a lullaby as the other guy went to sleep. :-) The armbar was terrible! If it was done properly it would have broken the other guy's arm.

[CFT]

I looked at the text alongside the video.

I think the defender is Aaron Vyvial (Moy 10 Tung) who used to post on this forum.

[Mr Punch]

LOL at people criticizing what was actually not a bad example of takedown defense. ...and probably know more about takedowns and defense than most of the people criticizing the clip.:rolleyes:

Why the LOL? It's a difference in opinion, that's all. And while I'm not so great on the ground, and I'm not as experienced as you, I know enough and practice enough to be pretty competent at at least single- and double legs and sprawls.

I know they weren't practicing full bore, but I don't think they were good shoots or sprawls... unfortunately since I've just wasted the minute I had spare to respond to your points on responding to your smartarse d!ckhead criticism, so I don't have time to talk about why I think what I think...

Oh well, another day!

[Green Cloud]

That was some weak sh!t

[Mr Punch]

OK, reviewed the vid again.

I was a bit harsh but I mostly stand by what I said. Would be interested to get Vyvial's input on this one, as he usually makes sense.

1) Shooter looks tired. On both of the shoots he goes straight down. He gets his lead leg in nice and deep and doesn't step in/round with the rear leg.

There are many different ways of shooting, I know, but the rear leg should be driving through the sprawler's centre of balance. In all the variants of sprawling I've been shown the shoot goes down, horizontal, up: this seems to be down, then down again.

In both of these cases, he goes straight down on one knee, effectively ending the forward motion and the shoot. In the first shoot this is maybe understandable because the other guy sprawls. The sprawl doesn't look that effective to me, but of course if it's working the shooter should be dropping somehow... but the second shoot the sprawler has a guillotine half on so why the shooter drops immediately to his knee I don't know (if he's really really unflexible maybe that would explain it but in fact it looks to me like he starts dropping before the sprawler grabs his head).

2) Posture: again shooter's head is down all the time. This maybe explains why he then goes down so easily.

3) The sprawl looks shallow and it looks like he's dropping his hips through empty air rather than using them to stick his torso to the shooter and drive his bodyweight down effectively through the shooter's upper body).

4) The shooter had the chance to change to double leg a couple of times. Also when he was half stopped, he seemed to half push it and half give up.

5) I've no idea why anyone would choose to do an armbar loosely across the chest like that. Maybe that's my grappling inexperience...? If one of you more educated grapplers could tell me please do... otherwise it's kind of as useful and realistic as practicing against an attack with soft fruit!

Otherwise:

Of course them training on a hard floor may have a lot to do with what I perceive to be half-heartedness. They look like they've trained together before a lot in this manner, so maybe they have got used to stopping when they assume the other one has something because they know they can pull it off. This is fair enough, and a common problem with training with the same people all the time. I appreciate some people shoot with their heads down. To me giving up your head in this way is asking for trouble, but again, I've been taught to shoot with my head up and I still make the mistake a lot when I'm tired.

Looking at my first criticism I was a bit harsh, and I do think they're doing a reasonable job in the shooting bit of getting some realistic grappling training and not straying from their wing chun. I still think the standing locks bit is extremely unrealistic though.

EDIT: just read your post properly Knifefighter, and I still don't know what your ****ing problem is.

[Knifefighter]

EDIT: just read your post properly Knifefighter, and I still don't know what your ****ing problem is.

The fact that everyone said they sucked at the takedowns and defense thereof.
They didn’t.
Neither was world class, but they showed what is a very common grappling exchange. The shooter made a few common mistakes that you will often face when going against someone who is an intermediate level grappler. The defender did a good job of cross facing and did not need to do much of a sprawl in this situation… this was a good counter when the shooter makes that common mistake. Often times, it is advisable not to sprawl deeply in this situation in order to finish the attacker with arm entanglements or to take the back.

What sucked were their submission attempts.
What sucked even worse was the dumb-a$$ striking attempts after the counters.

[Green Cloud]

What everyone is failing to see is that both fighters are out of shape. They are gasping for air as they are moving in slow motion. First of all since when did win chun practitioners grapple. It takes good cardio to win a fight not weed.

[Neo]

What's with the faraway look while defending :confused: If you're going to post up demo clips, at least make them look like you have some intent. hardly good martial awareness.

[Green Cloud]

Yea that's what I'm talking about, at least wear some uniforms or some athletic wear or something ****e it's like they should of started a thread on ebaum's world or something and some guys are actualy analizing this garbage. Please!:mad:

[Taff]

You guys have talked so much over just one video, you know that there is quite a lot more here:



http://sparrow.the.googlepages.com/resources

[Mr Punch]

What everyone is failing to see is that both fighters are out of shape. They are gasping for air as they are moving in slow motion. ...It takes good cardio to win a fight not weed.How long were they training before this vid clip? And do you know are smoking weed or are you just being pointlessly libelous?
Yea that's what I'm talking about, at least wear some uniforms or some athletic wear Yep, that's right. Cos we all know that what you're wearing makes a difference to your fighting skills :rolleyes: If they were wearing heels and tight skirts I could understand you'd have a problem but please!

Knifefighter: I thought the shoot had a lot of flaws. Therefore in my initial summary I said it sucked. You thought it had a lot of flaws but it wasn't bad. Fair enough. I take your point about the defence.

Taff: cheers, very funny! I knew Sparrow loved wing chun but I didn't know he had his own site!

[iblis73]

I have actually met the person in the video when I lived in Austin, he wasn't bad.

What I don't like is that people focus on the tool or technique-how to stop a shoot, a striker, etc. It's one thing to stand there and go "ok, now u grapple me..." but in reality there are a huge range of options. Few mma folks will attack without at least a feint jab or other strike. Just the fact that an aggressor could be within a few feet and have so many options (strikes, kicks, takedowns,etc) causes issues.

Of course all the other things in an attack could make a difference-surprise, state of mind, fear etc.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Few mma folks will attack without at least a feint jab or other strike.
My experience is the same.... I rarely see shots from the outside (as opposed to shots from a clinch) taken by themselves (i.e. not part of a combination), -except as a counterattack.

[stricker]

unless there straight out of gracie barra :p

[iblis73]

I guess this reminded me of the other thing that I did not like about wt when I did it....namely, standing there waiting for the other yahoo to do something. I guess I have moved on from wc/wt but I spent so much time in it I sometimes still get the urge to chain punch, lol.

[anerlich]

unless there straight out of gracie barra

No self-respecting Gracie Barra student would shoot on an opponent without a proper set up.

Besides, they'd probably pull guard instead ;)