waist-hip work????

[norrin]

can anybody out htere tell me if there are different ways of using the waist-hips for developing power in wing chun?
must ur waist-hips be forwarded or back or both (depends on the action you dotan-bong,high fook -low fook)?
do you fell the energy of ur opponent in your elbow?hands?arms?or in your waist-hips?

does the elbow start the movement and the waist-hips follow or vice versa or are elbow and waist hips not cannected at all?
if u answer could you please tell me who your teacher is or what lineage you come from because i`am interested in the different approaches?
thank you for answering!

greetings from germany

[k gledhill]

can anybody out htere tell me if there are different ways of using the waist-hips for developing power in wing chun?
must ur waist-hips be forwarded or back or both (depends on the action you dotan-bong,high fook -low fook)?
do you fell the energy of ur opponent in your elbow?hands?arms?or in your waist-hips?

does the elbow start the movement and the waist-hips follow or vice versa or are elbow and waist hips not cannected at all?
if u answer could you please tell me who your teacher is or what lineage you come from because i`am interested in the different approaches?
thank you for answering!

greetings from germany


we unify the hip & elbow through 'chum kil' practice....

hips forward all actions from SLT [ your thinking of tan, bong , 'high fook' 'low fook' arent ours so ,respectfuly, cant respond relative to your thinking and use ]...
imagine to push/hit against a surface [head] that needs all your force at one point and you will drive your hips into the action to use the leg to add force to your arms....stick your hips back and you get your answer, not as much force.
Efficiency ,unity, no wasted action, you may not get a second chance to try again.

elbow / waist are one , trained in chum kil.

Wong Shun Leung > Philipp Bayer>me PB has several schools in Germany

http://www.philippbayer.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc

ha yu duin ! from nyc

[stricker]

some people use like a "double hip" eg in chum kiu as popularsied by the peter conterdine, geoff thompson etc realistic self defence crew. its pretty easy to learn and can generate a lot of power.

similar concept/body mechanic in some forms of karate, the thai kick, apparently chen tai chi and maybe bagua also. also very natural eg lots of sports players do it.

but then some other people use 3 harmonies idea eg hip-shoulder knee-elbow hand-foot together. eg especially wsl method (as i understand it) as the post above by k gledhill.

anyway this is something im doing quite a bit of research about at the moment after experience a few different approaches. ive got more info but ill stop here unless things get interesting.

orrrright mate. from sunny england.

[_William_]

Stricker, is the double hip concept basically leading with the hips/lower body to obtain a "prestretch" in the obliques? Please correct me if I am wrong. I have been experimenting with this and have been having a bit of trouble integrating it smoothly.

[Kevin Bell]

[QUOTE=stricker]some people use like a "double hip" eg in chum kiu as popularsied by the peter conterdine, geoff thompson etc realistic self defence crew. its pretty easy to learn and can generate a lot of power.
QUOTE]

Well spotted, i'm hazarding a guess they do that because they dont emphasise the elbow connection to the hip, it's more a kinda torque to it.

[Mr Punch]

So what's the double-hip?

[k gledhill]

Ive seen Go Ju Karate use a similar double hip action from Master Higoanna/way of the warrior show on tv [yeah Im that old LOL] ,the power generation is based on different concept ....very powerful regardless....he [as one example] will quickly and fluidly, drive his left side hip forwards a couple of inches , while suddenly retracting it to drive the right side hip forwards with the right hand strike or strike with each action of the hip ....If you watch way of the warrior videos from way back ,you can see him hit a Makiwara board .... !
The Go-Ju [hard-soft] is white crane based Karate on the island of Okinawa, with some concepts of [my] vt present...foot positions, striking over the bridges to simultaneously deflect like lin sil di da..but on a lower level, aimed at midsection cutting down from above, .they use fook sao to come up from under an attacking strike and eye jab from it...just a few things ...po-pai hands...low kicks...
it doesnt seem to maintain an elbow concept in the striking as my vt, more as mentioned earlier, a strong fluid torquing action ; like a dog shaking water off itself....

[stricker]

cooool got people talking


Stricker, is the double hip concept basically leading with the hips/lower body to obtain a "prestretch" in the obliques? Please correct me if I am wrong. I have been experimenting with this and have been having a bit of trouble integrating it smoothly.

id describe it like a twitch back before the main movement so if your gonna rotate clockwise you give a little kick back anticlockwise first. yup i guess it does prestretch the obliques but also other muscles esp in the hips. ties in well with adduction. i dont know the physiology of it how it ties in with plyometric effect etc. whats up with integrating it smoothly? if you want to get good at it practice practice practice. i used the same mechanic for chum kiu as in thai boxing. again swings and roundabouts...


Well spotted, i'm hazarding a guess they do that because they dont emphasise the elbow connection to the hip, it's more a kinda torque to it.

yeah exactly its two different approaches. one is simultaneous movement the other theres a delay as its momentum building up. have you seen or experimented with it at all?


So what's the double-hip?peter consterdines powerslap. gooogle! there are a couple of clips on some reality self defense type websites of it but id have to look them up. imagine doing the shift in chum kiu where your facing 45 degrees then go back to straight on neutral stance. well the idea is kick back your hips to more than 45 (could be as big as hips going to 90 could be just a degree or 2) like winding up a spring that adds power kicking back to 0 degrees. its a real quick movement. just like when you jump from standing you dip down a bit first to wind up. like that but a real small twitch.


it doesnt seem to maintain an elbow concept in the striking as my vt, more as mentioned earlier, a strong fluid torquing action ; like a dog shaking water off itself....exactly. although you can still keep elbow low etc. cool description the dog shaking water off. breaking the elbow hip knee connection maybe the downside, you get steam rollered. or could be theres some other pieces missing, or just relative skill levels etc. hmmm interesting you say it comes from white crane wasnt there a thread on the connection from white crane to wing chun? maybe relevant but my small mind can only cope with simple body mechanics and hands on experiences not so great with confusing history and grandmaster xyz stuff. have you had any experiences\what pros and cons can you see of different approaches?

anyway just one idea sure theres many more. also there must be pros and cons of different approaches, whats anyone elses experiences been? lets hear more about the hip-elbow connection idea.

[k gledhill]

my own take on it is that our concept of lin sil di dar in vt requires the force to come from the ground through the leg to torso using the elbowin for its 'idea' and connecting the body behind the arm [open the elbow up and we would be doing go-ju to get force]
so its 1/2 a dozen of one and 6 of another...
In vt our [my] force can applied without a sine wave action , with an attacking forward step 'each' time, making a ---------->of force at the trap or attack zone constantly , that way keeping it a constant attempt/attack to maintain our forces and structure AND footwork to go with the attack rather than hit and watch it move away then get ready AGAIN with the big power shot to hit ,hit, hit, kick, move back to a safe area ...while hip'n'flip power delivery is aimed more at SOLID SINGLE shots like a thai leg blow to thigh or a go-ju / karate '1punch kill ' to body type attitude...each works ....and works very well . just different ways.
vt is trying to put the leg power behind the actions at 'all times' to deliver our own unseen force[thigh muscles] extending into the timing of short bridge attacks using simultaneous defence / close quarter fighting...dogfight moving on airhockey pucks, rather than baseball bats bobbing and weaving at home plate with a wild pitcher hurling at you LOL , all hurts the other guy. and each benefits from knowing the other....

p.s coupled with the hiptourque they thai/ karate drive into the ground for the plyometric efect of rebounding back out to strike so its more than just a static , stand firm ,ground to pound idea , lot of power ! bouncing around gently waiting for the timing to drive into the ground as vt does just not bouncing ^^^^^^^ our center of gravity as we do it , but sliding____________> attacking the bouncing ball ....in theory anyway!

[stricker]

k gledhill, cool post man. you summed it all up pretty well. the problem i found was getting mown down, that gap in the timing where the hip goes back is the point of failure. of course a) theres an answer to that b) maybe some other mistakes of mine (connection broken in the middle) c) skill level.

[k gledhill]

thanks , what do you mean 'mown down' ?

[Kevin Bell]

yeah exactly its two different approaches. one is simultaneous movement the other theres a delay as its momentum building up. have you seen or experimented with it at all?

Two of my boys went to Geoff and Peter's seminar, think it's the one thats been released as a DVD. So yep when they came back we had a little play with it. I think they mostly work it of a pre-emptive strike with a tad of pre-fight verbal and it's effective. From a personal point of view pre-torqing the hip then hitting is on par with the normal hip/elbow punch in the WSL method, only thing that i would add is that whilst it's undoubtably effective for me personally i feel the chambering could give the intention away a little.

[stricker]

see budda fist vs stricker round 1 :D well if the other person is pressing forward constantly (like your first post above) they can press the gap when the hip twitches back, pushing the person over. of course doing it correctly you should be able to retreat under pressure ok but then retreat retreat retreat has problems when the other person is relentless.

im still playing around experimenting with different ideas.

[stricker]

Two of my boys went to Geoff and Peter's seminar, think it's the one thats been released as a DVD. So yep when they came back we had a little play with it. I think they mostly work it of a pre-emptive strike with a tad of pre-fight verbal and it's effective. From a personal point of view pre-torqing the hip then hitting is on par with the normal hip/elbow punch in the WSL method, only thing that i would add is that whilst it's undoubtably effective for me personally i feel the chambering could give the intention away a little.alright. well its not exactly the same just similar concept but in the wing chun shift and footwork etc. just they show it most obviously. what do you mean by on par? same amount of power or same sort of mechanics? what i took away from the GL crew was the pretorque wasnt there as it broke the hip-shoulder-elbow connection. maybe one of them could chime in.

also i actually found the opposite for telegraphing for two reasons 1. just the hips move not the shoulders so can be hard to read up close. 2. the hip twitches the opposite way so if you mix up using it, double it, fake it etc people have no idea what your doing. i found doing thai kick sparring drills people got really confused with what i was doing :D

[Kevin Bell]

alright. well its not exactly the same just similar concept but in the wing chun shift and footwork etc. just they show it most obviously. what do you mean by on par? same amount of power or same sort of mechanics? what i took away from the GL crew was the pretorque wasnt there as it broke the hip-shoulder-elbow connection. maybe one of them could chime in.

On par power wise was what i meant. I was reffering to Peter Consterdine with regard to pre torque, not WSL method. Cant pre torque whats already square.

Interesting you found it non telegraphic guess after ones trained it for a while you get to read it easier due to familiarisation of game plan, much like when someone puts to passive hands up these days kinda feel like sighing and saying "yeah Geoff's fence dvd was bloody good" :)

[norrin]

we unify the hip & elbow through 'chum kil' practice....

hips forward all actions from SLT [ your thinking of tan, bong , 'high fook' 'low fook' arent ours so ,respectfuly, cant respond relative to your thinking and use ]...
imagine to push/hit against a surface [head]
thank u kevin but what about pulling instead of pushing. your waist-hip work should be in the opposit direction or what do you think?



elbow / waist are one , trained in chum kil.
why dont we start training it in slt if it is so important?
i do by driving the force out in using the waist as starting force->my elbow follows when iàm forward i relax then i pull my elbow back with an closing movement of my waist(not pulling my waist back, but trying "to close it" in a way. hard to describe:) :)

greetings and have nice con

[Gert]

why dont we start training it in slt if it is so important?

We do start training it in SLT. The most important thing you train in SLT is the stance. There by bending the knees and pushing the hips forward you are training them. Further you try in SLT to keep the hips solid and without any motion when training the handmovements. This will develop the waist power more if you are first able to keep them still and build a strong structure of the whole body. Often people have the hip a little backwards and then the chain of power of the whole body is broken. Since the waist is the middle of the body it plays an important part in that chain. Later when you make the turning actions in CK you train the waist in movement, but with the same structure as SLT. Same when doing chisau try first not to have to move the waist and keep them solid and forward during all actions. Finally, training with the long pole is one of the best ways to develop hip power.

GJ.

[k gledhill]

thank u kevin but what about pulling instead of pushing. your waist-hip work should be in the opposit direction or what do you think?


why dont we start training it in slt if it is so important?
i do by driving the force out in using the waist as starting force->my elbow follows when iàm forward i relax then i pull my elbow back with an closing movement of my waist(not pulling my waist back, but trying "to close it" in a way. hard to describe:) :)

greetings and have nice con


Gert's answer .....

what line of vt do you do ?

have a nice con to you too

[norrin]

Gert's answer .....

what line of vt do you do ?

have a nice con to you too


ok i`was doing wong shun leung vt for several years but now i will begin to train
under a another lineage. yip man->dont ask me for his name fatshan-vt-man-my trainer.
i like the explaination a lot more then what i found in the wong shun leung lineage till now. the only one who really could ompress me much was barry lee. i still would train under him/his vt. but he is to far away from me.

greetings

[Gert]

Gert's answer .....

what line of vt do you do ?

have a nice con to you too

Are you asking me? Anyway I do WSL Ving Tsun. I have found the explainations the most logical.

GJ.

[k gledhill]

gert ,not you... I saw the site info

norrin good luck with your training....all wsl are not the same .

[Ernie]

all WSL are not the same .

of course ,,,,there is only one WSL and about 99999999 brain washed clones , marketing Guru's
snake oil sales men , Pipe dream sellers and my favorite catch phrase propaganda parrot's [ better Known as Si fu says junkies ] ;)

Oh and the newly converted Lineage leeches there like reborn bible thumpers !

[k gledhill]

norrin I only ask a lineage so i know your train of thinking...I may know it or not ?
when do you do the push /pull hip thing you do?

[CFT]

ok i`was doing wong shun leung vt for several years but now i will begin to train
under a another lineage. yip man->dont ask me for his name fatshan-vt-man-my trainer.Lun Gai or Kwok Fu?

[norrin]

@kevin gledhill
i train the pushing hip work whenever my elbow is doing a forward movement in the slt and when the elbow goes back i try to pull my elbow back with a little closing movement of the hip-waist and so shoild every movement be made within the other forms or chisao i think. have you ever tried to get in the stance like this? try to push the waist forward and the waist should seperate the front of your feet and then try to "close" your waist again and seperate the back of your foot. just with the power of your waist. sorry for my bad english. ever tried that? its worth a try.

@cft
there have been others from fatshan but i couldtn even tell you who it is->cant spell his name!:o

[couch]

What about when stepping with that waist-hip action?

Like when stepping forward with the left foot in a left-foot forward stance, punching as the step is executed (therefor loading the right hip a bit) and then firing with the right hand as the hip comes to a close.

Just thinking out loud how to generate within motion. I figure this also could be applied to an defense-attack senario as well.

Good conversation..had to jump in.

Best,
Kenton

[Kevin Bell]

Cham Kiu Saam Gok Bo step(s) hips stay square and keep the rear heel connected to the floor.

[[Just thinking out loud how to generate within motion. I figure this also could be applied to an defense-attack senario as well.]]

If i'm reading you correctly here you're reffering to whats known as Seung Ma (forward attacking footwork)

[couch]

Cham Kiu Saam Gok Bo step(s) hips stay square and keep the rear heel connected to the floor.

[[Just thinking out loud how to generate within motion. I figure this also could be applied to an defense-attack senario as well.]]

If i'm reading you correctly here you're reffering to whats known as Seung Ma (forward attacking footwork)

Interesting...

Was thinking in the way boxing develops power for the right cross. You gain extra power by throwing a jab and twisting the right hip back and then the waist, etc turns with the right cross.

Was just thinking that with my above example...you generate power like this with the Saam Gok Bo steps stepping forward.

But as you said in the way you do things...that you keep them square. Does the punch still come out like a whip. Do you get your power from the sinking action as well...like in the example of White Crane or Bak Mei? (these questions can be for all as well).

Just thinking about the *best* most effective way to develop power.

I guess it would be to link the heel-hip-elbow...but the timing has to pretty accurate. Agree/disagree?

Thanks for the input,
Kenton Sefcik

[stricker]

yo couch/kenton,

very good question about boxers body structure and how that ties in. i think its better to compare with like a left hook with turning the body, as theres less leaning and putting the torso into the punch, i think its more moving the body as a unit. kev b is the man for this... also some mma fighters move different eg dont turn the lead leg in with the punch but keep it pointing forward so its more rotating at the hip. the theory is its safer when theres takedowns to worry about.

also power isnt maybe the biggest issue. eg one of the big things i found in the wsl approach was its constant attacking your centre so any tiny gap in the timing (eg to wind up for a big hit even just a hip twitch however small) and there over you. but... maybe sometimes the big hit is what you want. pros and cons etc etc

[Kevin Bell]

Interesting...

Was thinking in the way boxing develops power for the right cross. You gain extra power by throwing a jab and twisting the right hip back and then the waist, etc turns with the right cross.

Was just thinking that with my above example...you generate power like this with the Saam Gok Bo steps stepping forward.

But as you said in the way you do things...that you keep them square. Does the punch still come out like a whip. Do you get your power from the sinking action as well...like in the example of White Crane or Bak Mei? (these questions can be for all as well).

Just thinking about the *best* most effective way to develop power.

I guess it would be to link the heel-hip-elbow...but the timing has to pretty accurate. Agree/disagree?

Thanks for the input,
Kenton Sefcik

Hi Kenton

It would be inappropriate for me to draw comparison to or comment on White Crane or Bak Mei as i have no experience of either system so my response would be based on conjecture only.

With regard to the best way to generate power this can throw up a huge discussion on different body mechanics as it can be drawn from many sources; hip/elbow, localising it to the shoulder only, body torqing etc but the reality for me is fighting application and im not gonna castigate myself if i employ any of the above sources sucessfully in a real life situation

[couch]

yo couch/kenton,

very good question about boxers body structure and how that ties in. i think its better to compare with like a left hook with turning the body, as theres less leaning and putting the torso into the punch, i think its more moving the body as a unit. kev b is the man for this... also some mma fighters move different eg dont turn the lead leg in with the punch but keep it pointing forward so its more rotating at the hip. the theory is its safer when theres takedowns to worry about.

also power isnt maybe the biggest issue. eg one of the big things i found in the wsl approach was its constant attacking your centre so any tiny gap in the timing (eg to wind up for a big hit even just a hip twitch however small) and there over you. but... maybe sometimes the big hit is what you want. pros and cons etc etc

Pros and cons. That's cool. I understand that the minute the centre opens up...shoot at it like an arrow. That's cool too. There still needs to be enough force in order to disrupt the opponents energy and timing with the hit.

Kev: I understand the whole idea of not getting caught up on this way or that way will only work for fighting. "Don't make a plan of biting, that is a sure way to lose your teeth!" Thanks for your input!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[stricker]

couch,

yeah the cons im talking about are more in chisao than at range. the wind up ive been talking about isnt like a big telegraphed haymaker type thing is a feeling pressure thing where you get driven in in chisao. makes me wonder about different situations different answers etc.

[stricker]

With regard to the best way to generate power this can throw up a huge discussion on different body mechanicsthats what im trying to do ;)


as it can be drawn from many sources; hip/elbow, localising it to the shoulder only, body torqing etc but the reality for me is fighting application and im not gonna castigate myself if i employ any of the above sources sucessfully in a real life situationof course your right :D

[Kevin Bell]

Stricker

If you're ever up for hooking up for a workout then let me know, sure with what little distance there is it would be more beneficial for both of us to have a hands on pooling of thoughts

[stricker]

kev, well have to sort it out :)

[couch]

kev, well have to sort it out :)

:jealous:

Best,
Kenton