What do you people do all day

[TheBigToad]

I truly respect anybody that practices Bagua for its martial side, as somebody who does work in and wants to further his standing in the private security sector I understand the time and amount of repudiative practice that goes into this.

I truly respect anyone who practice Bagua for the art and health, its a beautiful and benefical art.

On top of continuing my college courses and maintaining a social life (however limited it can be) as well as trying to get in what I consider to be a bear bones minimum of practice a day (somewhere between 60-90 min) I find I'm able to meet occupational hazards and stay in pretty good health. For Maoshan, Black Taoist, or anybody, what do you think is amount of time per-day to develop a good and competent fighter within Bagua or Xingyi?

The question arises from a flyer I saw yesterday form a local "Shaolin" school talking about just 20 min a day of circle walking to develop true internal power and devastating fighting skills.

I know this isn't accurate, but something is better then nothing, I'm just curious on how long a day the higher level people in here feel is adequate time.

BTW is response to something I saw on-line, how long do most of you stay on the Internet? This took me about 5 min to type out, and now I'm done.

[Chris McKinley]

I truly respect anybody that practices Bagua for its martial side, as somebody who does work in and wants to further his standing in the private security sector I understand the time and amount of repudiative practice that goes into this.
I truly respect anyone who practice Bagua for the art and health, its a beautiful and benefical art.

On top of continuing my college courses and maintaining a social life (however limited it can be) as well as trying to get in what I consider to be a bear bones minimum of practice a day (somewhere between 60-90 min) I find I'm able to meet occupational hazards and stay in pretty good health. For Maoshan, Black Taoist, or anybody, what do you think is amount of time per-day to develop a good and competent fighter within Bagua or Xingyi?

The question arises from a flyer I saw yesterday form a local "Shaolin" school talking about just 20 min a day of circle walking to develop true internal power and devastating fighting skills.

I know this isn't accurate, but something is better then nothing, I'm just curious on how long a day the higher level people in here feel is adequate time.

BTW is response to something I saw on-line, how long do most of you stay on the Internet? This took me about 5 min to type out, and now I'm done.

Hi Kevin,

Asking how long one should practice per day to become a competent fighter is like asking how long one should fish in order to catch enough for a family meal. Simple volume of time is not the crucial variable here. Learning does not occur in an exact linear fashion such that N number of hours = X amount of learning. Personally, I would recommend you devote more energy to exploring the other factors which affect your learning more than volume of time.

RE: the "Shaolin" school's flyer claiming 20 minutes of circle walking/day would yield true internal power and devastating fighting skills. Hogwash. Not to mention that beginners almost never possess the ability to simultaneously exhibit proper form in circle walking AND to use the Yi (conscious intent) properly in order to make the exercise a useful qigong, circle walking, alone and in and of itself, never yielded ANY fighting skill. Circle walking can be thought of, to use a modern analogy, as a .zip file. There is an abundance of useful information stored within it, but unless and until the information is 'unpacked', it remains merely a pretty if repetitive coordination drill.

The 'AHA!' experience when one discovers the inherent application possibilities is where leaps in learning take place. This can come either from self-discovery or through the explanations of an instructor. Either way, this process has to occur before circle walking, the Single Palm Change, etc. can be used for real fighting.

[Sam Wiley]

Well, it's not so much how long you practice each day, but how long you have been practicing. If all you can do is 20 minutes a day, then make it a quality 20 minutes. You may learn slower overall, but it is still going to take a long time before you reach mastery, years and decades.

Myself, I used to practice qigong for hours a day and when I started learning forms and stuff, I would do about 8 hours a day total. While I think that that amount of time each day is a good foundation, I also think for many people it is overdoing it a bit. I finally reached a point where my agenda of stuff to practice was too much to practice in one day, and now I have to alternate things. I mean, my list of qigongs to do, if I did them all once each and sequentially, ended up being 3 hours (as opposed to my starting out with just a few and practicing them for 3-4 hours), and with forms and stuff, the time limit was astronomical. When it got to where I had to watch the clock I decided it was time for a change. Now I alternate stuff, and since I have to work, I cannot get in near enough time for qigong in my opinion, but I get in what I can. My pratice sessions now run about 1-2 hours, with a little qigong to begin, some forms, maybe some weapons forms, and if I'm lucky I can get in some 2 person practice like Push Hands or something.

If you have only a couple of hours to practice, I would suggest doing qigong during the first third, or until you feel you need to move on to something else, doing forms (both empty-handed and weapons) during the middle part, and doing two-person stuff during the last part. I consider walking the circle mainly qigong, so I always did it immediately after standing qigongs, and went right into the circular form from there. I always walked the circle for 30 minutes or so, which is about the minimum I would recommend, but I had other things to practice with it after a while. The circle walking and standing qigongs are pretty much the foundation of Bagua, the basics of the basics, then you have your forms, and then your two person exercises, sparring etc, as the last of the basics. Just walking the circle will teach you a lot, but it will not teach you everything, and you should move onto something more advanced after a while, so the advertisement you saw was not quite correct. The circle walking is done in conjunction with the rest of your training after a while, and it is then that its benefits and real teaching start to appear, when you are able to correlate it with the more advanced stuff, which actually enhances your circle walking. In fact, one of the things that I was told but did not understand until several years after beginning walking the circle, is that the forms are there to enhance your circle walking and make it better, and not the other way around as many believe.

And I try to stay on the net as little as possible. But sometimes I get bored. :D

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[TheBigToad]

Hmmm so your saying doesn't matter about quantity but quality of practice. I would almost agree with that seeing how it makes some sense, but what about stanima/endurance and over-all body conditioning. I'm a firm believer in hard work and sweat to be martially powerful. I'm asking about martial practice and for usage in a very martial type line of work, not as hobby/health, I tend to think there is a great difference between the two and as one would practice such. Maybe length of time may not be to crucial deciding factor but to persist in a non stop, lots of confusion and stress situation, I doubt 30 min of qigong is gonna cut it at all, thus comes in the long circle walking and standing practice, the numberous push ups and pull ups, and heavy weapons practice, thats what I'm talkin about. I'm interested in here from guys that have spent some serious time is this type of training and for the same reasons, I know thats a slim majority but its worth seeing if they'll speak up.

Induce the quality of your quantity, makes for a much better fighter

[joedoe]

I think the amount you train can also depend on your level and experience. I have trained (not in an internal style) for 14 years, and find that 20 minutes a day is enough to maintain my level. If I want to improve I need to put in more time. Also, my instructor spends something like 15 minutes each morning and that is all he needs to improve.

Sam, where the hell do you find 8 hours a day to train? :)

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You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[Sam Wiley]

Actually, ABandit, the question should read where DID I find that much time. LOL. I used to practice that much back when I first started because I only worked part time and spent time and money on nothing else. But my practice sessions run about an hour or two every day now, if I can even squeeze that in. My suggestions on how to divide the time were based on someone not having a significant amount of time to spend on training every day. If you want my real opinion as to how much time you should spend training, it would be that you should spend every minute of every day training that you are not spending eating or sleeping. Every step you take should be training, every breath should be for qigong, every hand movement should be related to fighting. Actually, if you dream lucidly or travel astrally while sleeping, you can even train while your body rests. But that's something you'll have to experiment with on your own.

Train as much as you possibly can. But if you can only get 20 minutes in, then make it a quality 20 minutes. Seriously, though, how many hours a night do you sleep? Maybe you're sleeping too much and that's what's eating into your practice time. ;)

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[count]

You are correct that the amount of training you do is related to what you are training for. I am a web developer so I doubt I will ever need fighting skills in my job. That should answer your second question as to the amount of time I spend online per day. Almost all of it when I am not practicing! What you are training for will dictate the time per day you spend in practice And what the focus of your practice is. I spend 2 hours practicing in the morning and 1 hour in classes in the evening. Saturday, I spend an hour practicing Tai Chi Chuan and a 4 hour class in Bagua. Sunday is for basketball and rest. I totally agree with Sam, that in a sense you are practicing every moment since after a fair amount of time, kung fu changes the way you move, think, breath, eat, sleep, even sex. I feel totally comfortable that I could defend myself against anyone, even a skilled fighter, but I no longer train for that purpose. In the past when I trained to fight, I would spend probably 2 hours more on the pushups, situps, rope jumping, bag work, running, weights etc. etc. IMO This kind of training has absolutely no benefit in advancing your ability to use your skills beyond endurance. My personal training consists of a half hour for chi kung and 20 minutes to a half hour for stances. A half hour to 40 minutes on forms and a half hour on heavy weapons. Classes are for drilling, conditioning and learning new forms and applications. When I practice, I practice hard. This probably has little relevance to your first question since I am not in your occupational field although I have been recruited several times by law enforcement people who saw what I was doing and the results under pressure, and thought I would be a great person for the job. But I just don't see putting myself in harms way. The amount of time you should spend on training depends on your level of talent, your level of effort, and your goals. As you can probably tell, my goal is not to be in any situation where I need to depend on martial arts to save my life. But if I find myself unable to avoid it, I should have the skills it takes to survive. If you have the intention to continue in the private security profession, you should practice at least twice as hard as I.
d

[razakdigital]

count,

I've been focusing on praticing and less on writing for the past few weeks but I read the posts. I could not resist this one...you are right on your point with your response...its practice practice practice there is nothing else to discuss ... this is my biggest battle to make sure I train a lot and train correctly.

keep up the good training

Acton may not always be happiness, but there is no a happiness without action."

Benjamin Disraeli

[maoshan]

In order to answer the question properly, you first have to understand my perception of BaGua.

Ba-Gua is the PHD of the Martial Arts. It's an advanced system based almost Totally on principles
8 of the 10 Disiples of Dong were taught principles to apply to what they already knew.
I could go on but that's enough for this thread.

For what we do, 20min of circle walking is a bunch
of Bull. While Xing-Yi will develope a fighter
faster than Ba-Gua(in terms of techniques), you can't stand in San Ti for 20min either and expect
the results of being a fighter.

As for how long? It depends on the individual, Some are talented, some are not. If you've had some experience(Martially)maybe a year. If not,
3yrs.

As for the Qigong aspect of this, yeah, 20min a day will get you results, but only halfa$$.
From my research into the Internal, the heath benefits were a side effect. No one who practices
for health is as healthy as the one who embraces
the art as a whole. Why be half ass about it. If your going to do it, then do it. All the health
claims we read about the arts were mainly about
the masters(fighters)not people who practice for health. Those who practice for health are only getting 50% of the benefits at best. I don't want half, I want all of it.

For the Occupation your talking about, minimum 2hrs a day period. First hour stance, second hour conditioning and live fighting to perfect personal
skills(your strenth and weaknesses) the weekends,
4-8hrs. All aspects should be covered in respect to what your doing.

I understand Kevin, The Blacktaoist and myself
both do Bodyguard work for MoTown Records. and while it hasn't happened yet, we expect to have to bring our students in on some of our jobs. so at this time our concentration is on conditioning.
If you can take a blow,you can give better than you got if you've trained properly.

The amount of time spent on any thing is useless
if what your doing is wrong. Like i always say
"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice
makes perfect".

Abandit,
I had the same amount of time and longer to train.
8hrs is not impossible to the dedicated person.
Sam happens to be one of the few. Me and my Best friend(a wu Styist)trained and fought together
for at lest 5hrs almost every day for 10yrs. and that was together,that had nothing to do with our indiviual practice.
It's like Sam said, you practice all the time.
Every thing you do is practice. My friend and I
practiced everywhere, Bus stops, Train stations,
We fought everywhere. This isn't 1801 it's 2001
we don't have the time that the Masters of old did
so never stop training.

Just for the record,
After recieving some e-mail from various people
about why we aren't Online any more.
My classmate and I Have had enough of the bull
we're fighters, we don't talk . and especially
after meeting with some of the people whopost on this board who try to seem so deep. They had no Power what so ever. No bridge, No pushing skills,
or sensitivity for that matter. they couldn't fight, etc. You guys know who you are.
You guys are the reason that most Martial Artist
look at the Internal as being only good for health
and useless in a fight. I don't care who your teachers are living off thier rep isn't going to save your ass.
My Classmate won't post at all, he's through. so he's concentrating on his website. I look in from time to time just to see if a good topic is brought up, if I feel it I answer. I have respect for few people on this board. Most are wannabee's
If your a student than act like one. you waste people's time and stunt your own growth. Hell, both me and my classmate are still students, we
just tried to give the benefit of our experience
to those who need it and get from those who have to give. Me myself, I've been doing Ba-Gua for over 20yrs. It's just now in recent times becomming popular and quite a few teachers have jumped on the commercial bandwagon. For those who came to see us I hope your re-evaluating your situation, unless yall like giving your money away

Who do i think is cool on this board?
Sam Wiley
Kevin
Chris McKinley
Count
Daniel Madar
Braden
BagwaBoxer

These are the only people on this board that actually have some thing to say.

I could go on but enough.
Sorry, but I feel this had to be said.

So to the true practitioners I bid you Peace
and may your training always breed results.

Maoshan

[Guandi]

Dear Maoshan

>From my research into the Internal, the heath
>benefits were a side effect. No one who practices
>for health is as healthy as the one who embraces
>the art as a whole.

I think you are mixing here to different subjects. One is the reason for training and the other is the intensity.

I can train for health and embrace the art as a whole. It is even possible that one who is practicing for health is embracing it much more than the one who is practicing it for other reasons. I think most people really do not need the martial ability to survive in todays world. So practicing for health can be a much stronger motivation -- especially when you have to deal with some health problems -- than the nebulosity need the defend yourself sometimes in the future.

As far as I know Cheng Man Ching started his Taiji also for health reasons. Training for health does not mean that you abandon the martial side -- it can be, but not necessarily -- and simply take it as a hobby two times a week.

Kind regards
Guandi

[joedoe]

Is a avg of 6 hours too much? :)

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You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[Destrous9]

Guandi:

I agree 100%. I train mainly for health, but still want to knowing all about my art. The reason you want to learn an art has nothing to do with your ability to learn it. Only close-mindedness prevents a person from learning.

...but we all know this.

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."
Internal Arts Message Board (http://pub41.ezboard.com/bpencaksilat)

[maoshan]

In order toget better you must be pushed, tested
and refined. It has already been affirmed that just about any physical activity is good for you.

today, even if you embrace the art as a whole while entering it for health, if you don't have someone to test your mettle you will only go but so far.

Sure, most people today don't need martial Arts
to survive, and it's that mind set that will hinder thier highest potential. You see, what most people consider good health is totally superficial.Ex:
People that run marathon races for whatever amount of miles. When the race is over thier done.
If you were to say let's do it again they whould look at you like your crazy. that's one side.

The other is: A Tribe in Kenya Thats not as advanced (technology wise)as the west, that still hunt for thier food. will chase an antelop for 50mls kill it and bring it home and tomarrow get up and do it all over again. Who's healthier?
It speaks for it self.

And as far as Cheng Man Ching is concerned,
Yes, in the mid 20's He started learning from Yang Cheng Fu to help the TB he had. With in a year He was all but cured. Yes he entered for health reasons but he was a fighter and he had to be to be named as one of the inheriters. which means that he was constantly pushed to be better.
He Knew and fought many of the turn of the century masters. Cheng didn't even teach the way he was taught. in fact, none of the cheng Fu lineage does. The watering down of of the style sacrificed a certain amount of it's health benifits. Compare Cheng Fu's style with Yang Ban Hou and Shou Hou. Yang isn't considered part of the martial world anymore(Cheng Fu that is).

The mind controlls the body if the mind isn't stressed to push the body, it won't, which means
after some point you will stagnate. Even if your not aware of it. The concept of relax is benificial for the health over all and works regardless of the martial arts. We want more.

And wanting health is not enough, in fact, it can hinder your goal because the mind, not properly prepared for whats it's doing (or not)will block the benefits because of anxiety of the desire of health. The mind has to be quiet in order for the body to do what needs to be done. In todays society, we think to much. you have to unlearn quite few things before you can actually begin to learn.

I'm not mixing, it's all one and the same to me.
I call the Internal Arts Life Arts. I don't catorgarize any of it. It's every thing i do every day.
For those who do it strickly for health and are not pushed to the next level, Your recieving the bare minimum. Teachers don't push because thier trying to get paid, if they push to hard, like most westerners, they'll give it up. When i started learning, it was with the Chinese. the difference was like day and night. It wasn't about the money with them, it was about perfecting them. Time, energy, and effert were
requiered all the time. With westerners, they do what they feel. and the teacher needs to keep a roof over his head. so what can you do? And there's much evedance on this board alone on how westerners have lied to themselves that thier good
when they haven't even touched the surface. Health or Fighting.

Mixed? I know exactly what I said, and i hope that this helped you understand what i said.

I mean I could go on and on, But if you don't get it yet, you won't.

Peace
Maoshan

[wujidude]

I love Maoshan's lists . . . sad to say I'm not on his list of "authentic" posters. Sigh. Guess I don't practice hard enough. But considering he hasn't met most of the people he listed, and almost none of the rest of us . . . it's pure bull****.

But that's OK, because his main point about serious, focused, diligent practice and sparring/fighting to achieve a real level of skill is valid. I think the point could have been made without Maoshan's personal slandering of people left off the list, however.

[Mr. Nemo]

"Yang isn't considered part of the martial world anymore(Cheng Fu that is)."

Isn't considered part of the martial world by whom? And why not? Is there something wrong with it?

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

No disrespect but that last guy on your list "Bagwa Boxer" was a troll and used other names like bak mae_ and ironvest till he got kicked off. I doubt he even studied Bagua.

Peace

Daryl

[8 Sweaty Palms]

I'm a writer.

Bagua is the perfect excuse to get up and walk around in circles for no reason what so ever.

8SP

[maoshan]

Bull ****?
What's wrong? Ego get the best of you? Or is it just out right jelousy? I spoke of the individuals
I've(so to speak)Conversed with since I began posting.I don't know you. I've seen your name in passing, but that's all.
And what does it matter that I didn't list you?
If your secure in your training and progress, what does it matter? You need to check your Ego
man,traing is all this should be about.

Come to think of it, perhapes we might have crossed swords at some time in the past when I was posting a lot.I don't remember if we were pro or con each other in the particular debate.

I simply listed my feelings of who I thought chould add some knowlege to this board. And yes,
I can say that. I've been doing BaGua Longer than most. The way BaGua is taught today, is not the way I was taught.My personel opinion is it's been diluted(in terms of it's usage,A True, moving root
Etc.
This is the reason we stoped posting.
I didn't slander anyone, I spoke fact.
And the more I think about it, Your another one of those faceless individuals trying to come off
like a superior. You don't like what I wrote, so now's the time to denounce me?
You wild ,man.

Enough.


Mr. Nemo
There are plenty of San Shou Tai Ji Players today,
What I speak of is the real tech's. It is a fact that Yang Cheng fu watered down the system.
When the main populance got it, this is what they got. Chen and the others didn't go through this,I think. Most of the teachers of yang that I have met that taught it was for health and in fighting did a differnt system. Now don't get me wrong, what they did was apply the priniples of thier tai chi, if it was a hard/soft style or not at all if a hard style. But none of them thought of the system as a combat system anymore, the real thing wasn't being taught.
To learn true Yang is with Pan Hou Or Shou Hou
I had the oppertunity to met with a guy who Knew it. and he was good. I've never seen Yang done like that.
It's what they said, and then, what I saw.
thats why I said it.

Peace Maoshan

[This message was edited by maoshan on 04-29-01 at 06:56 PM.]

[joedoe]

wujidude,

Does it really matter if you are on the list or not? I would also like to think I had something to contribute, but if people don't see my postings that way then that is fine. You take it or leave it.

maoshan has some interesting things to say, and some very strong opinions. I don't agree with all of it, but that is my right as well :)

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You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[wujidude]

Wooohoooo! I obviously had too much caffeine when I posted previously. Maoshan, sir . . . seems I misunderstood what you meant when you listed those folks. No, I wasn't sobbing because I'm not in the "in" group . . . it just struck me that you were saying that people not on that little list had nothing worthwhile to say. Specifically, you said:

"Who do i think is cool on this board?

Sam Wiley
Kevin
Chris McKinley
Count
Daniel Madar
Braden
BagwaBoxer

These are the only people on this board that actually have something to say."

Obviously I took your statement the wrong way. Except for the last one, whom I don't really recall, I've enjoy the contributions of all those guys to this forum, too, and have learned a lot from what they've posted. But there are a lot of people on here that I've enjoyed and learned from (Kevin Wallbridge, GLW and Taoboxer come to mind).

I don't mind strong opinions, as long as they're right on. I've always liked what you've had to say about the importance of strong practice and keeping the focus on the fighting aims of the art. Miss Novell Bell's contributions, but he's got his reasons (including practice) for putting his time into other things.

[Mr. Nemo]

"It is a fact that Yang Cheng fu watered down the system."

Everyone tells me this, but no one tells me how. He changed the system, I know, but I think Yang style when taught properly and trained properly, can work in combat just like any other style.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I have a suspicion about Yang Chengfu's teaching. I have no other reason for believing this other than a hearsay story I heard and longstanding practice amongst "family" stylists.

What I believe is that Yang Chengfu held-back teachings that he himself had recieved, perhaps expecting to share them later on in his life. So his legacy was actually transmitted in an incomplete way.

The anecdotal story is that he was seen practicing a fast set with "cannons" in Shanghai in the 1920's. I don't know where this story originated but it was related to me by a Chen stylist, so he may have been biased :) . If he did train this way then where is it in the system he transmitted? I've actually had the opportunity to train a fairly complete Yang syllabus (the 108, Chen Weiming's and Fu Zhongwen's broadsword, the old two-person broadsword drills, Chen Weiming's straight sword and two-person straight sword drills, spear drills and two-person spear drills, the 1-8 push-hands drills, dalu, moving-step push-hands, Chen Weiming's and Dong Yinjie's 88 two-person form). Nowhere in this syllabus are are any empty-hand fajing drills (it is said that it is present in the spear).

The other reason that I suspect that Yang Chengfu may have held back is that was a common practice in the 19th century to teach three levels of information to students. "Courtyard" students were the people who learned very simple things from senior students, and who basically provided income. "Public" students, were those who trained in the courtyard behind closed doors and would have the priveledge of feeling the master's touch, but who were not family members. The last level of student was the successor, the one person who would be given all of the secrets and was trained to be better than all of the rest.

I believe that Yang Chengfu may have struggled with the problem of who he would pass the mantle on to, his sons were clearly less keen on the art than his nephew, Fu Zhongwen, but Fu wasn't in the direct line. Fu Zhongwen did take the mantle eventually, but he never taught, as far as I know, specific fajing training. Now that Yang Zhendou is the lineage holder I fear for the future of the lineage, but not the style. YZD is a nice man and very sincere, but he is not the pugilist that either his father nor Fu was.

None of this is to say that Yang style is a weak system. I can certainly appreciate the incredible sophistication of the Yang's approach to the energies of engagement. Although when I began the serious study of the style I could already fire short-power from my Chen Xingyi and Bagua background, so I don't know what it would feel like to try to learn cannons just out the system itself.

Well, I do love to share my thoughts. Sorry for the tome.

What i do all day is teach at a school of Chinese medicine. Aside from medical history and medical ethics, I teach Chinese physical culture (Qigong and Taiji). So I get to train alot everyday as a part of my job. In my private life I'm single and celibate so there are no relationship issues to distract me from my training. I guess it can come down to the question of what you are willing to sacrafice ;) .

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[RAF]

In another posting at another website, someone cited that Fu Zhong Wen's son was on a tape doing single moving fajing exercises. I finally tracked the tape down, its the China's Living Treasures, the George Xu series and sure as shootin there is Fu Zhong Wen doing the form and later his son doing fajing exercises.

These were similiar to what my first teacher, Tom Phillips showed us in 1983 (he was a very early student of Jou Tsung Hwa). Since then I have never seen them, even in the late 80s and 90s at the Tai Chi Farm.

Does anyone practice them and where exactly do they come from

[wujidude]

Kevin:

You may already have known that Fu Zhongwen taught single-movement fa jing drills. His son demonstrates some of them on his instructional videotape of the long form. If in fact Fu Zhongwen received more of the transmission than, say, Yang Zhenduo, this fuller transmission may be the origin of Fu Zhongwen's single-movement fa jing drills. Or Fu may just have developed them on his own. I will note that I haven't found every one of the 108 postures as done in Yang Cheng-fu's long form to be amenable to fa jing.

A number of instructors teach a "Yang family fast form," supposedly taught to the indoor disciples. Dong Yijie was supposedly one of those indoor disciples, but he had to create his own fast form (based in part on his Hao style taijiquan training . . . although it's not clear that Hao style had a "fast form" before Hao Weizhen).

In any event, these various "fast forms" of taijiquan probably reflected the original structure of Chen style training, with its Yi Lu and Er Lu forms. Daniel Blacklock wrote an interesting article in one of the "Internal Martial Arts" newsletters (www.sixharmonies.org)comparing the Lao Jia (old frame) Chen forms with the "Xiao Jia" (small-frame) Chen form coming down from Chen Qingping (who was perhaps Wu Yu-hsiang's major teacher; Wu Yu-hsiang taught Li I-yu who taught Hao Weizhen who taught, among others, Dong Yingjie and Sun Lutang). Blacklock indicates that he was taught the Yi Lu of the Chen Xiao Jia style so that every posture could be performed quickly and with fajing. Lao Jia Chen is not taught this way; only a handful of Yi Lu movements are executed with fa jing in Lao Jia. Perhaps correlating with Blacklock's statement is the apparent lack of an Er Lu routine in Chen Xiao Jia (or at least I've never come across any reference to one).

One other tidbit for when you're sipping a beer or herbal tea or whatever your choice of post-training longevity elixir is: Yang Chengfu may not necessarily have been the one to receive the "full transmission" from his daddy Jianhou. Many, even within the YCF line, talk about YCF being a slacker until after his father died, at which point he threw himself into diligent practice. The point is, YCF may have figured out a lot of what he eventually wound up teaching on his own.

One intriguing claim to the "full transmission" of Yang taijiquan can be found at www.aymta.org (http://www.aymta.org), the website for the Yang Jianou-Zhang Qingling-Wang Yen-nien partisans. They have produced people pretty decent at tuishou, but I don't know what if any training they provide for fa jing. Their "michuan" form is significantly different from YCF's.

[brucelee2]

Didn't the blacktaoist (and maoshan?) make claims awhile ago to be recognized by a bunch of masters, including william cc chen, and didn't chen's daughter than come onto the forum and say that chen didn't recognize the blacktaoist (and maoshan?)

Also, I find it interesting that Kevin is on Maoshan's 'list' when I seem to recall awhile ago the blackdaoist (and maoshan?) saying that they thought that Kevin's two teachers (BK frantzis and john painter) don't have skillz.

Also Maoshan, didn't you recently 'swear' that you were going to visit the school of one of the posters on this board in the immediate future and beat him up? Did you? If not, why should anyone here take your word for anything?

just asking-

[This message was edited by brucelee2 on 04-30-01 at 12:43 PM.]

[Metallica]

I called up Chen Xiao Ping the other day and asked him as to whereabout is his school. To my big surprise, he said that he does not teach and most of all, does not have any student!!!
I politely asked him whether it was possible to meet up with him and he told me he usually hangs out in a park in Queens.
Hence my confusion: both Maoshan and Blacktaoist claimed that Chen Xiao Ping is their teacher and Chen Xiao Ping claims that he does not teach and does not have students. Maybe both gentlemen above are Chen's "secret disciples", or Chen was lying, or worse of all, the two gentlemen were making false claims.
Conclusion...... you decide!

[wujidude]

Mmmmmm . . . I don't know that I would call Chen's response "lying" so much as perhaps polite Chinese offputting . . . in Chinese culture, and particularly in Chinese martial arts culture among high-level practitioners, a wee bit of introduction is appreciated, usually by someone known to the teacher. Chen may not run an open commercial school . . . that does not mean he doesn't teach martial arts, nor that Maoshan a.k.a. Ben Hill and Novell Bell are not his students. Metallica, this kind of dissuasion is not all that uncommon. Then again . . . you could be right. I know that Chen Xiao Ping has done some seminars . . . maybe that's what Ben Hill means by having Chen as his teacher.

As for Maoshan's "list", let's not be childish about it. Maoshan either meant only to list some of the people he thought are "cool," which I take it to mean that he values their opinion and assumes they have some good experience and skill to back it up, or he meant the list to be what he wrote, an exclusive list dissing everyone not on it. Either way it's kind of amusing, since he hasn't crossed hands or practiced with even most of the people he lists . . . let alone the rest of the people on this forum. I just think he gets lonely out there in Syracuse, and jumps in here for company.

[count]

e-mail me!
count@kabooom.com

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Thanks RAF and wujidude, I did know about Fu Zhongwen doing individual movements with fajing. However it seems that this training was considered supplemental, like zhanzhuang, not an actual part of the syllabus. I agree that there is a good chance that Yang Chengfu's reluctance to train Taiji as a youngster may have led to him missing some of the depth. After all, he seems to have only switched back to Taiji from Shuaijiao after losing to some of his father's students.

To answer your queation RAF, it is a basic part of my Chen training to do individual movement fajing, primarliy punches and elbows. As well there are many specfic power traning exercises including, but not limited to, the spear. In the context of Yang style, I trained the 88 two-person form with Sam Masich and one of his goals was to get me up to "live" speed. The last time I worked with him August we were managing to move rather explosively without losing the smooth connection so characteristic of the style.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[RAF]

Kevin:

I saw the area you live in from one of the website links. My doctor is from that area. It looks really beautiful.

For my own Chen training we do some single moving postures but I sort of *******ized things. I use the xiao baji training which is a form that uses 24 movements of linked static postures and breathing but can also be played with fajing and fast. We also do a lot of single moving exercises with a significant amount of emphasis on dropping one's weight and kao.

Sam Masich, I don't know him, but have watched him on a number of the Taste of China videos. He seems very decent.

Regarding Yang Cheng Fu style ala Fu Zhong Wen, Ted Knecht, a friend I've known and trained with over the years, is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys regarding the style. His teacher, Mei Sheng, is both an Eastern and Western Doctor of medicine. Ted is a genuine martial artist and Yang Cheng Fu system he practices has fighting applications and additional training exercises.

If you contact him at his website, I am sure he will privately answer all your questions regarding the style.

I still can't get those images of your town out of my mind. Winter must be really something.

[TheBigToad]

Well, for the record BK. Frantzis is not my teacher, I know some students of his and a certified Qigong student of his lives very close to me and her and I spend time together and I have meet BK. Frantzis once, thats it. These was a bit there that I was being falsely portrayed here and it was written that I had racist views and what not, but a lot of posts sometime ago written under my name wasn't really me.

As for Maoshan and BlackTaoist they seem to have the want to back up what they claim and while you can't tell a lot from pictures they seem to really study and work hard in their Bagua ability.

My Baguazhang teacher is now Shifu Dr. John Painter and I am grateful for his advice and instruction to me.

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[razakdigital]

As some of the people on this post are aware of I haven’t posted on any forums for a while. I wanted to dedicate my time and energy to other endeavors as well as practice. Now in my past residence on this board, I’ve met many practitioners face to face, over the phone and via email. These individuals are cool with my crew and me and we all show love to each other as Pa Kua Chang brothers. I wanted to start the letter of with this intro to make a statement what I’m about to say is directed to brucelee2 and Metallica. These words are from my mouth and mine alone. I will pull no punches on this post because what I’ve seen on this post is atrocious and has to be answered with expediency.

Brucelee2

“Didn't the blacktaoist (and maoshan?) make claims awhile ago to be recognized by a bunch of masters, including william cc chen,

Well first of all Mr. Brucelee2 they were not claims. All you or anybody has to do is to do your OWN investigation and ask Mr. Chen about Novell G. Bell. Is that so hard? Go down to the school and see for yourself. In fact on Sunday, April 29, 2001 I was at Chen school to get some corrections on my form with the blacktaoist. Grandmaster BP Chan was there plus other students. The respect he received at the school was by leaps and bounds from any so-called “claims”.

“and didn't chen's daughter than come onto the forum and say that chen didn't recognize the blacktaoist (and maoshan?)”

If you remember the post correctly, Mr. Chen’s daughter had an issue with CK Chu name being mention on the same line and topic as her father. There was no issue between blacktaoist and his daughter. At the tournaments I’ve been in, I’ve never seen Chen’s daughter so any ill will towards the blacktaoist.

“Also, I find it interesting that Kevin is on Maoshan's 'list' when I seem to recall awhile ago the blackdaoist (and maoshan?) saying that they thought that Kevin's two teachers (BK frantzis and john painter) don't have skillz.”

If this sentence is true about their issues with BK Frantzis and John Painter so what? Blacktaoist didn’t write the list it was Maoshan, so why are you mentioning the black taoist name? Second – so what if Kevin is on Maoshan’s list? If he is cool with Kevin so what is wrong with that? If I don’t like my friends father does that mean I shouldn’t like my friend?

“Also Maoshan, didn't you recently 'swear' that you were going to visit the school of one of the posters on this board in the immediate future and beat him up? Did you? If not, why should anyone here take your word for anything?”

Yes, Maoshan did state he would visit a school in the future. And your point is? How did you know that he won’t visit tomorrow or in the summer or next year? How do you if something is planned? Why even bring it up? Both schools have not discuss this topic and it should be left like it was for months now…alone…what does a statement that Maoshan make have anything to do with having to take his word for anything? My man, there is a saying that the “Streets are watching and bad boys move in silence”. This is not a Shaw brother’s martial arts flick.

Metallica

“I called up Chen Xiao Ping the other day and asked him as to whereabouts is his school. To my big surprise, he said that he does not teach and most of all, does not have any student!!!”

First of all I doubt you were able to get Mr. Ping’s number. He is not listed. Second even if you did get his number that must mean he does not want to be bother with you. Don’t you think?

“I politely asked him whether it was possible to meet up with him and he told me he usually hangs out in a park in Queens.”

You are correct

“Hence my confusion: both Maoshan and Blacktaoist claimed that Chen Xiao Ping is their teacher and Chen Xiao Ping claims that he does not teach and does not have students. Maybe both gentlemen above are Chen's "secret disciples", or Chen was lying, or worse of all, the two gentlemen were making false claims.
Conclusion...... you decide! “

I will show you how so wrong you are my friend…. First of all Mr. Ping has had two Yin Style seminars that everyone on KFO was aware of. In both seminars, Novell was his assistant because he is HIS student. Second we have advertised that we are going to Beijing to learn under Mr. Ping brother Zhang…everyone and anyone was invited based on the availability of the seats. Does that sound like theblacktaoist is lying? Oh by the way please follow this link - http://pages.zdnet.com/niwah64/Ba-GuaZhang/id3.html Everyone was fully aware of both of the Black Taoist fight with a Beijing San Shou champion and Chen Xiao was there at his side. If you go to http://www.blacktaoist.com/graphics/practitioners/index.htm or http://www.blacktaoist.com/Liberate%20yourself.html . Note Mr. Ping pictures with the Black Taoist? Isn’t that Mr. Zhang Lei picture on the website who is Mr. Ping brother? Doesn’t Maoshan and the Black Taoist have Zhang Lei’s picture on both of their websites? (Oh by the way Pa Kua enthusiast if you look at Joseph Crandell’s book on Yin Fu you will see where he got his illustrated his pictures from Zhang Lie that is another story for a another post.) Feel free to come down the park and see for yourself.

Mr. Brucelee2 and Metallica what was your purpose in writing these post? You guys know **** well that TBT has not posted in such a long time. What bring his name up? What is your beef? Why question the black taoist? What is the real underlying reason for such hatred? Amazing all you guys do up here is talk about so – called great pa kua teachers that write books and such and the black taoist has never lied about who and what he is. He has never hid himself behind a computer screen. He has clearly told everyone where to find him and how to see him face to face. Does this sound like someone dishonest? What is the reason for this? This is why he doesn’t post anymore because of the foolishness that goes up here.

I had to write this to in support of my family to ensure the real information was posted. It is such a waste of my time to be on this forum posting information on crap like this but I need to bring the truth forward. Now feel free to dispute my information but the proof is there. I’m not going to get into a back to forth debate over these issues. Mr. Metallica if you are interest in learning Cao Branch Yin Fu from Mr. Ping I’m sure you will have to go learn from the Black Taoist. For some reason I think learning from the “Black” Taoist doesn’t appeal to you….

Razak da mind boxer aka beng to the chest

[brucelee2]

Razak,

I do not feel any nor did I demonstrate any hatred for Maoshan or the Black Taoist. (I've never met them- why would I hate them or care much about them?) I asked some fair and honest questions- that's all- there's nothing wrong with that. And Maoshan and Black Taoist should speak for themselves- my post did not mention you nor was it addressed to you. Finally, I find it interesting that you find my post 'full of hate' but when your buddy Maoshan says that nobody but his 'list' has anything worthwhile to say- you have no problem with that. Was that 'list' an act of love? As far as visiting the BlackTaoist and Maoshan goes, I'd like to, but I live in Vancouver now and I don't think its gonna happen in the immediate future. I don't know you guys, but I do feel a real lack of humility coming from their posts, and its offputting. The first credential of mastery is humility. PERIOD

[Mr. Nemo]

The only Yang style fast form I've ever heard of was created by a guy who used to teach here in LA (I can't remember his name - tell the truth, I'm not really that familiar with the whole Yang tai chi community).

I have heard of a yang family longfist that Yang Cheng-fu only taught to certain people, and I believe Fu Zhongwen was one of them. Could this be the form "with cannons" that he was seen practicing in Shanghai? I've been told that yang family longfist is heavy on chan ssu jin, and has a strong chen-style flavor.

"Fu Zhongwen did take the mantle eventually, but he never taught, as far as I know, specific fajing training."

Actually, he mentions some fajing training in his book "mastering yang style taijiquan" (but he doesn't describe it).

I'm not nearly as knowledgable about the lineage and such as Kevin Wallbridge or wujidude (whose name I like, by the way). The general impression I get is that combative yang style training tends to be less form-oriented and more single-posture oriented (at my school in san diego, group classes were single posture drills when they weren't tuishou). The way I understand it, eventually these single posture drills are done with fajing.

[dingo]

I noticed that in your most recent post in this topic you said that Yang Cheng Fu studied shuai jiao in his youth. Can you give me any more details about this (i.e. source, how long for, who with, what style, etc..)?

[count]

Skill, the second is experience. I'd say humility, although not an undesirable personality trait, ranks down around 9th or 10th. Brucelee2, is this your contribution to a thread about what you do all day?

Metallica, sometimes high level teachers just won't teach without a recommendation from a teacher. Do you have a good teacher? Maybe Chen Sifu is not the teacher for you. I have found the adage that when a student is ready, a teacher will present itself to be true. I don't think any of the conclusions you have drawn in your post are even close. I know none of these men are lying or hiding any secrets. In fact, maoshan has shared more truths than almost any of the contributors to this forum. (blacktaoist too!) I think if you are serious about studying from Chen Xiao Ping, you should meet with blacktaoist as he is openly teaching. Possibly, if you seem like you can learn, he will recommend you.

Wujidude, e-mail me.

maoshan, thank you for taking the time and reading my posts. Your input is valuable to me. Your posts are also valuable to me. Keep on posting.
0

[razakdigital]

Like I stated in my previous post I will not get involved in back to back discussions. As far as myself stepping into the discussion...well its like this - theblacktaoist is my teachear and a friend so just like if I'm in the street and someone is trying to attack him I will defend him as such he would do for me. I guess you can blame part of my attitude because he is training me to be a warrior. (remember a soldier is told when to fight and a warrior knows when to fight) Now in regards of myself mentioning Maoshan's name I did so because theblacktaoist name was mention along with him. REMEMBER THEBLACKTAOIST DIDN'T POST ANY LIST IT WAS MAOSHAN. If no one ever mentioned theblacktaoist name I would not have said anything myself. I know full well that Maoshan can handle himself. Anyway most of the cats up on this post can't handle the knowledge Maoshan puts out. Yeah Maoshan put that list out...it wasn't my idea...I've never did that on this forum...is it hate? It's all from your individual prespective...but again if theblacktaoist name was not mention I would have never came into the subject. You have to remember that when you speak on one person you are testing the whole crew. That is another reason why I don't post as much because I represent a group of people. Most of the people on the forum I have good relationships with outside of this forum. I can name a lot of names but there is no need. We are all cool. To be honest we've been told that we are giving out too much information and wasting our energy. I needed to post because I KNOW the facts better then anybody concerning the questions that were asked. Believe me my friend me responding to the post is doing everyone a favor because I'm sure theblacktaoist would much better job then I would to these questions.

Oh by the way did I answer your questions? How about your boy Metillica? Did I answer his questions from the last post?

[razakdigital]

One other thing as I stated in my previous post...this is not a Shaw Brothers martial arts books...humility is not the question here...you step to us step back ....

"...It doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't call it violence when it's self- defense, I call it intelligence."

Malcolm X

[wujidude]

Man, this is getting downright silly. Let it go, OK? No one is benefiting by this. I originally objected to the tone of Maoshan's list, the way in which he put it--not whether or not he thought me "cool" or competent. The guy has a right to his opinion. He either meant the list the way he stated it, as an exclusive list--or else he didn't, and I simply misunderstood him. That's it. I don't know Maoshan or his abilities, and he most definitely doesn't know me. To make sweeping generalizations just shows ignorance, or an immature mind. Let's not let this degenerate into the kind of debacle that the earlier verbal sparring between the eternal Nubian and David Ross of High-Carb Lama Boxing turned into.

Kevin, some weird **** has been written here under your name and other aliases that, if it wasn't you, I'm glad. I'm talking about unsubstantiated reports of blowing through a Wing Chun sifu and his students using xingyi down in Utah . . . and other claims. Elsewhere you're apparently hunting vampires (http://users.twave.net/b13/morons.html).

Metallica, it would be worth continuing to check into training with Chen Xiao Ping. It would not at all be unusual for him to refer you to a senior student for training. He may in fact just be interested in doing seminars. I would enjoy learning the Cao style of Yin Fu baguazhang if I were in NYC more frequently. But if you don't have any luck with Chen Xiao Ping, there are certainly other good bagua teachers in the NYC area. One who hasn't been teaching much bagua but is supposed to be highly skilled in 9 Palaces (Cheng Tinghua) baguazhang is Li Tai Liang.

brucelee2, you've got a great teacher in Yang Guo Tai. I wouldn't be moving from Vancouver any time soon; I'd be putting in as much time as you can, every morning every day, as Master Yang is getting on in years. I don't know that you'd find any better teacher in NYC anyways.

Maoshan, Razak . . . what's the point? You've spoken your truth. Anything from here on is just mouthboxing. You guys are above slander. If we've gotta talk, let's talk about training, technique . . . the art.

Thanks.

[wujidude]

By the way, folks, I'm bowing out of the forum for the foreseeable future. I've got a new business opportunity to pursue and some life exigencies to attend to. I'll be on the road this spring and summer. There are some great teachers out there, and maybe I'll get a chance to visit with them. But I'm sort of with Water Dragon--there are more important things than posting--and the gentleman from Manchester (Internal Boxer)--there are talkers and there are walkers. All in all, when the discussion is about specific hard information--where is there a teacher of a particular art, how do you do a specific technique--a forum like kungfuonline's is great. The rest seems to be far too much vapid meandering and trashtalking to be worthwhile.

Good training to all of you.

[brucelee2]

Razak,

Its all good. The only reason I mentioned blacktaoist is because I tend to associate him with maoshan and I can't always remember who said what -that's why I said 'blacktaoist (and maoshan?)'. Anyway, it doesn't matter all that much. I let it go. Next time I'm in New York I'd like to check you guys out (if I'm still welcome).

much love

Count- Is that YOUR contribution to a thread on what people do all day?! -whatever dude

[This message was edited by brucelee2 on 05-01-01 at 12:00 PM.]

[count]

So Long!

[razakdigital]

Listen fellas,

We will move on from this topic. I agree we should not be mouthboxing (good one I will use that in the future). brucelee2 its all good also no beef between us, I was just backing up friend so you can understand that. In NYC we are always in the heat of battle physically and mentally so it is not uncommon for such a reaction from us NYC warriors. Nevertheless let's squash this whole crap...this goes also for Metallica too...anyone is free to check us out ... thats what www.blacktaoist.com (http://www.blacktaoist.com) is up there for..

Peace fellas ....

hey count how are you? Look time my friend...

[TheBigToad]

Ok..now that I read what you where(website) talking about WujiDude it makes some sense, but still altogether strange....

I used to write short stories for a now defunked publishing press here in Boise, that was a small excerpt of one, or at least has the same references that my stories had in it. Thats wild you found that! I E-mailed the webmaster but his e-mail is now invalid so I guess I'll never know why or how he got that, but still..

I problem was that I had a shared hotmail account and up to 5 other people where using it at the same time, but that was over a year ago I rarely if ever use that e-mail account.

I have take a lot of precaution in making this profile and keeping it under my access only and my e-mail account is lostforest2001@aol.com.

I did work a lot for sometime in Utah the Salt Lake area and did some very heavy sparring with Wing Chun guys, but that was here in Boise and yes I used a lot of Xingyiquan against them and had no real problems doing it.

I have made sure that when anybody sees a post from "Kevin" its me and only me, I put my name there and where I can be contacted in person, anything before this was just too tainted to trust.

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[wujidude]

Well-spoken, brothers. Thanks.

Peace.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Dingo, I'm trying to remember where I read the detail about Yang Chengfu's youth, but I'm sure it was in print and in English. I've looked through a couple of refernces but I haven't found it. So I can't relate any details about his teacher or the style of Shuai Jiao. As well, the story was related to me by Sam Masich, who has met and trained with some of the brighter lights in the Yang Taiji world. He is good friends with Yang Jun, so it may come from him. Maybe someone at the Yang family forum would be able to point you in the right direction. Cheers.

Glad to see we are all playing nice now. The mud-slinging is not why I come here :) .

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[maoshan]

No.
Before it's over I will responed to this.
Your right, I need no one to speak for me. Razak defended his teacher. Cool.
But now let's hit it.
First.
Bruce Lee2,
As Razak pointed out, The entire William cc Chen,
aspect of this is too easy to verify. Tiffiny is our friend and has been for years. You mis-read
some part of her post. But that was pointed out as well.
As Far as Kevin is concerned, We reconcled our differances, And moved on. Why go back there?
In the recent post, Kevin and I have been Quite Cool with each other. No animosity. What's the point? To Incite?
As to the list, These are people I think have something valuable to say in particular. not to say no one else had anything to say, in fact i couldn't think of every one at the moment I was posting. The list is who I remember at that time.
And no I haven't met any of them face to face. I don't have to see you to gather weather our not
were on the same page or not. A simple conversation will do. Now testing True skills, that's a face to face. There's no other way.
As to my absent humility? We don't like that fake crap. Keep it real. No teacher of mine was ever humble. There's a differance between Tact and humility. We write the way we do because most are talk aided by books and mag articles. With no real
experiance at all. so the theory they speak on has holes. We're trying to promote true BaGua not
Not BaGua Chat where Fantasy rules.


As to the conflict with that other,
I said what I said, I know what I said, and I mean
What I said. I'm on no one's time table save my own. And understand this, This is personel between us. It's not a show for ya'll.

Now Mettalica,
You Straight up LIER.
How and where did you get our Sifu's Phone # From?
He has no school. Only three people have his #
Me, The Black Taoist, and Sifu Li. How could you have called Him? Whered you get it? from a Ba-Gua Directory?
How would you have even heard of Chen Xiao Ping
If not for Me and the Black taoist? No one would.
As for you saying that he told you he hangs out in a park in Queens, You took that from Novell's site. Almost word for word. As to the verasity
of my self and my classmate. Our Sites speak for them selves. How do we have the pictures on my site? How do I have the original book? These things were givin. and not to just anybody but someone close. And if i was simply a siminar attendant, I don't think I would have been given
what i have. Chen Xiao Ping has said over and over again he will only teach me and novell. You can only(at this time)the Cao style through us. You might get advice as students of ours,
but that's as far as it goes.
So I repeat, your a LIER.

You wanna meet with us? Because I know you don't know. It's Kessena Park By the lake. We're there every weekend in the mornings.
Please come so I can Floor you. You straight up
tried to Defame us with this LIE.
Our historys are clearly on our sitesand can be verified. Razak put the links See for yourself.

Wujidude
Your right, I do get board up here.
But lonely I'm not.

Maoshan

[virus fist]

This commercial has been brougt to you by courtesy of Maoshan & Brothers Inc.

Maoshan,you are the man,but show them some compassion,after all they don't know you are a Pa Kua Chang walking enciclopedia of knowledge.

Keep up the good work.

Virus Fist

[razakdigital]

virus fist you are funny cat!!! you got jokes!!!

This is why I tried not to speak for Maoshan - I'd knew you had to get a piece of this!!! LOL

Anyhow fellas I hope as Pa Kua Chang warriors we can put this behind all of us and move on. Let's all just put out opinions and information so we can learn from each other. To keep it real ...Our crew has brought this forum up to a whole new level. Now again we are not bragging but and we are not the best. We are just hardcore people trying to elevate the art. I've learn from so many people on this forum and I hope to continue with my experiences here.

Let's all learn from this...I've said things in this forum that my Sifu pulled my coattails on. Thats' why I don't post unless absolutely neccessary.

In summary, please lets not post and ask us any question or make accusations if you do not have your facts straight. Because not only we will come at you with the truth but we can move any discussion from the digital world to the analog one...

peace and lets have less talk and more circle walking ...

[dingo]

Thanks for the info, Kevin. ;) I think I'll go post on the Yang family board like you suggested.

[brucelee2]

Maoshan,

Its all good. I'm over it- I don't really care anymore. One day I'd like to come and check y'all out and I'll see with my own eyes what kind of skillz you have.

peace