Lots of Martial Arts Schools Are Closing?

[neilhytholt]

So calling around Seattle, trying to find places to train if I relocate there, a common thread has come up, which is that a lot of schools are in fact closing or their memberships are really down.

It seems the main schools surviving are the ones that have a lot of kids programs and teach really watered-down martial arts.

Anybody else see this happening? Like for example, there are no more Tracys kenpo schools around Seattle, they've all shut down. Several instructors I called said they teach kids to stay alive but there are very few students anymore even for kids, and they wonder what's going on.

[yutyeesam]

http://www.makskungfu.com/

your search is over! ;)

[neilhytholt]

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to learn a lot of useless forms.

I've found a place that doesn't require forms. It's called Ring Sports United.

[rogue]

The martial arts industry is just reaping what it's sown. Kids programs went from a way to generate money that went into the adult programs to taking over the schools. Also add on programs to learn self defense, weapons and all the other things that used to just be a part of learning martial arts and you have a great way to eventually undermine your own school.

On the other hand a friend of mine is doing well by orienting his school toward families and by also renting out floor time to other arts.

[yutyeesam]

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to learn a lot of useless forms.

I've found a place that doesn't require forms. It's called Ring Sports United.

Got it. You wanted martial sports, not martial arts.

[PlumDragon]

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to learn a lot of useless forms.

I've found a place that doesn't require forms. It's called Ring Sports United.
Im pretty sure that Maks doesnt teach but a handful of forms and focuses more on 2-man drills. Sounds like youve already nailed the coffin shut, but if you have an open mind, there is atleast one person on this forum that trains there who can give you more info.

[Chief Fox]

I think several things have impacted this trend.

First, the rising popularity of Mixed Martial Arts. I think you will see more traditional Chinese Schools close while the MMA gyms survive. I believe that this is just a trend though.

Second, the economy is bad. With rising gas prices everything is more expensive these days and it's harder for a small business like a martial arts school to survive.

Third, people are more lazy these days and don't want to put in the hard work that is required at a martial arts school.

Forth, some people think forms are useless.

[BruceSteveRoy]

It is a sad state of affairs for TCMA schools at the moment. I think the reason kids classes are booming and adult classes aren't is that parents will pay the money for their kids to go and get excercise (instead of sitting in front of the tv) much more willingly than spend it on themselves. What i think has been working at a few schools i saw in my search for a school after i moved to MD was that classes with parents and kids together were pretty successfull.

However, doesn't this bode well for the future of CMA? If you have all these kids learning at a young age it means that when they get a little older there will be more of a demand for CMA than there currently is. Of course that doesn't help ppl looking for a school right now.

[BruceSteveRoy]

Forth, some people think forms are useless.

Thats funny.

[Cat Nap]

I think it's a lot of reasons - the price of gas, having to travel distrances for a good school, the cost of training - a lot of schools take advantage of students with price for testing, fees for sparing gear, and other hidden costs. If you look at movies these days, there's more action films and not so much an emphasis on martial art action films: Seagal, Van Damme, Ninja movies, the Karate Kid, are all a thing of the past. It's more some martial arts with guns. There's no "Kung Fu the Series" or "Vanishing Son."

Finally, Americans are more overweight than ever. Joining a school and sticking with it takes effort and many people are looking for a quick fix with some flash.

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.makskungfu.com/

your search is over! ;)


Took a little look at this site and was amazed. The price was about $80-85 dollars a month!!!!:eek:

Is that high or about the norm these days?

Just wondering......

(and not to point out this school, it was just the link I followed)

[BruceSteveRoy]

i would agree with you if it was just the McDojos. Its been my experience that they are the ones that are weathering the storm. It seems that the legit schools are suffereing more. I think that the McDojos tend to be better in the marketing of their schools whereas many of the "good" schools tend to have the "the proof is in the pudding" approach. Whether this is true everywhere i can not say but it was true where i used to live. I haven't paid too much attention to schools other than mine since i moved to MD. This of course also goes back to the kids. Kids like sashes (belts). So you end up creating belt factories in some of the schools and that keeps mom and dad paying and the Mc Dojo survives.

I once spoke with a woman that ran a TKD school and she said to me that she hated that so many schools turn out such high ranking unskilled students. So i asked her why the students progress so fast if they aren't good enough. She said that many of those kind of schools get funding from the AAU but one of the requirements for the funding is that a certain percentage of the students attending have to show progress. So they pass them to keep their funding. That could be another reason for the longevity of the McDojo.

Honestly i don't know if the AAU thing is true. That was just something someone told me.

[lxtruong]

Took a little look at this site and was amazed. The price was about $80-85 dollars a month!!!!:eek:

Is that high or about the norm these days?

Just wondering......

(and not to point out this school, it was just the link I followed)

That's the norm and actually a little bit on the cheaper side from what understand. I do know that what Master Bill charges is super super super SUPER cheap. Like crazy cheap. Of course, the COL in general is lower in Lexington though.

[GeneChing]

Martial arts is a luxury in America. When the economy is bad on the middle/lower economic classes, attendance drops. It's happened before. Fix the economy and all sorts of wonderful things will bloom again, including martial arts.

The rise of MMA hasn't really shown much economic impact on the traditional martial arts. It has shown more impact on the health clubs than anything, just like TaeBo did a few years back. The demographic for MMA is too narrow. Actually, TaeBo had a more significant impact because it had sex appeal. MMA has some sex appeal, in a sort of brokeback way, but it's more of macho appeal, like boxing really. TMA has a much broader appeal because it grabs the young and old. It may surprise you tough-talkers here, but the bulk of bill-paying MAtists are just in it for healthy pastime, especially with kids and those slightly past their physical prime. Most parents look at MMA cage fights and are turned off. That's not what they want to put there kids into. Since MMA is very physically demanding, it requires far more time on task than most people can invest. For them, some 'useless forms' are very useful. Like wushu (and who else would compare MMA to wushu but me?) there's not much money in it because the demographic. Generally, it's only the teens to thirty-somethings that has the time and the energy to invest seriously in these arts, and they seldom have a lot of bank, accept on the upper end, and that's when they tend to start looking for something a little less hard. Of course, there are exceptions, but looking at general economic trends, MMA only poses a threat to the timid.

Don't get me wrong - I think MMA is great. I love sitting down with a beer and watching some good MMA. But I confess, I'm past my physical prime and there's no way I'm ever going to get in the cage at my age. Plus my whole interest in martial arts stems from sword practice, so MMA has little to offer me in that regard.

[neilhytholt]

For everybody that's ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time. For one thing, if you study the applications, they overlap between the martial arts.

Plus, who has the time to learn a bunch of new forms and practice them in addition to whatever forms you already practice? I sure don't. Add to that the fact that every new school requires you to do the forms their way. Yang Tai Chi, for example, there are so many different variations.

So I think that a school where you can train in a fairly realistic manner (sparring) that doesn't require you to learn their forms or a lot of new techniques is probably optimal. Hence something like Ring Sports United with a MMA focus.

As for what Gene said about the health thing, I think that's right on. Most of the people I've met recently in schools seem to be there to get healthy and lose weight. The martial arts was just a side thing that is less boring for them apparently than going to the gym and working out. Plus, you don't really want kids doing weights and treadmills.

For example, the local TKD schools are loaded with kids and fat teens. TKD seems to be primarily a way for parents to stick their kids in something to help them stay in shape and lose weight, and the tournament and belt aspect keeps them interested. (Oh, and not to mention the time the kids spend in TKD is like a babysitter).

Adult Tai Chi (non fighting and non contact) seems to be popular with everybody in the 35+ age range.

Plus, there is the liability thing. You teach people martial arts like they used to, and you get hurts, ouchies, sprains, broken bones, etc., and that's a big liability. MA insurance is like the 1-2 million range, so if somebody sues you for over $2 million (if they break their neck in a throw you're probably looking like $10 million+). This is the reason I personally don't open a school. Otherwise, I'd open a school tomorrow.

[Oso]

schools are having a hard time here as well.

Just had lunch w/ my jujitsu teacher and found out his enrollment was down as well as mine.

I've only had one student quit that cited economics though. She was driving 25 miles one way and is a small business owner selling a luxury product so her busines has been slacking off as well.

Everyone else either 'got busy' or lazy.

A TKD school nearby has closed.

There is one little thing happening though: a TKD guy, ATA I think, has opened several tiny little schools around town...3 or 4 I think. Word is he's not making a lot of money because he doesn't have a bunch of students at any school but is just carving up the pie into smaller bites for everyone. On the other hand, he's bracketing the city. This town sucks azz to cross between 3 and 7 for such a relatively small place. I have had people tell me they didn't want to come to a class on the other side of town.

I've been debating closing down and trying to get back into a rec center. I've been in the black exactly one month out of 18...

[neilhytholt]

Everyone else either 'got busy' or lazy.



Something strange is going on besides just the health craze and all that. It really seems like we're in a mini-recession or something even though most people out there seem to have jobs. I've noticed that there's a lot less stuff going on in general. (Stuff meaning everything from horseback riding to movie going to church to martial arts).

I can't really figure out why, though. People at work are now taking a lot of vacation now, and they just seem to be relaxing, taking time off, doing some walking around, work on the house, or watching T.V. !!!

Even the video stores are in a lackluster state. They said their sales are down due to video on demand and stuff like that.

Do you think the real cause might be TIVO, movies on demand, and stuff like that? Because it really seems like most people are just sitting at home watching T.V.!

BTW that part of NC seems really nice.

[Chief Fox]

For everybody that's ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time...
Where just busting on you man. Besides you're the one who said that you didn't want to learn a bunch of useless forms. Having as much experience as you say you have, you should know that the back bone of any Chinese Martial art or style is it's forms.

[neilhytholt]

Where just busting on you man. Besides you're the one who said that you didn't want to learn a bunch of useless forms. Having as much experience as you say you have, you should know that the back bone of any Chinese Martial art or style is it's forms.

Well, I have to say that I don't really agree with that. The way that a lot of Chinese martial arts are taught are starting with forms and then going to techniques. But it seems fairly obvious, doesn't it, that the people who invented the forms started with technique and then went to forms?

[neilhytholt]

Okay, so I raised this topic at lunchtime with my co-workers about what they're doing with their time, and here were the comments from people.

General consensus is that they're not doing very many activities and things as they once did.

Common themes:

a) Too much traffic, high property taxes, getting old (health problems), taking care of kids. Their kids are all in activities like sports, martial arts, etc.
b) Several people said they have signed up for video subscription services (video.google.com, for example), so they spend a lot of time watching that.
c) A lot of shows on television (Desperate Housewives, The Shield, etc, etc. etc.).
d) Spare time with home maintenance, fixing up the house, etc.

Basically they don't have a lot of free time or money and what free time they do have seems to be spent watching their new big-screen TVs.

[Chief Fox]

Well, I have to say that I don't really agree with that. The way that a lot of Chinese martial arts are taught are starting with forms and then going to techniques. But it seems fairly obvious, doesn't it, that the people who invented the forms started with technique and then went to forms?
Yes it does. How would you say that any particular style of martial art was able to survive for hundreds of years? Do you think a style or martial art survives on individual techniques or is it through the individual interpretation of those techniques through forms?

What I'm getting at is, you and I can interpret different applications from the same techniques in a form.

If you teach me one application, all I have is that one application. If you teach me a form, I can extract many many different applications.

A punch is a punch but a form defines a style. Saying a form is useless is just like throwing away hundreds of years of combat tested information.

I don't know about you but I would rather learn from history rather than say it is useless and just throw it away. To each his own, I guess.

[Chief Fox]

Okay, so I raised this topic at lunchtime with my co-workers about what they're doing with their time, and here were the comments from people.

General consensus is that they're not doing very many activities and things as they once did.

Common themes:

a) Too much traffic, high property taxes, getting old (health problems), taking care of kids. Their kids are all in activities like sports, martial arts, etc.
b) Several people said they have signed up for video subscription services (video.google.com, for example), so they spend a lot of time watching that.
c) A lot of shows on television (Desperate Housewives, The Shield, etc, etc. etc.).
d) Spare time with home maintenance, fixing up the house, etc.

Basically they don't have a lot of free time or money and what free time they do have seems to be spent watching their new big-screen TVs.
Sad but true.

[neilhytholt]

Yes it does. How would you say that any particular style of martial art was able to survive for hundreds of years? Do you think a style or martial art survives on individual techniques or is it through the individual interpretation of those techniques through forms?

What I'm getting at is, you and I can interpret different applications from the same techniques in a form.

If you teach me one application, all I have is that one application. If you teach me a form, I can extract many many different applications.

A punch is a punch but a form defines a style. Saying a form is useless is just like throwing away hundreds of years of combat tested information.

I don't know about you but I would rather learn from history rather than say it is useless and just throw it away. To each his own, I guess.

Some martial arts forms seem to be condensed, such as Xingyi or taiji, but some martial arts forms are not condensed like some forms of Fut Sao, etc.. The main reason I'm against forms is because many teachers these days do not know many or teach many applications of the forms. I personally don't want to waste my time learning a lot of forms and getting corrected only to find out the teacher doesn't know the applications. I disagree with you in 'finding applications' of the forms. This just seems to mean people make up weird stuff that doesn't work.

IMHO (and I have a large library of VCDs from China to support this that I went through this weekend and am throwing away), most of the martial arts from China the applications were lost and now people are making up stupid stuff.

But that's just one person's opinion, in case Judge Pen is reading this. LOL

[Chief Fox]

Well I didn't say "finding applications". I said "extract" and "interpret". You may do a technique a certain way because it works with your style and body type. I may do the same technique a different way because it works better with my style and body type. Same technique with two different interpretations.

But who am I to argue with you and your 20 years plus of studying your large VCD collection. :rolleyes:

Good luck finding a new school. :D

[neilhytholt]

Well I didn't say "finding applications". I said "extract" and "interpret". You may do a technique a certain way because it works with your style and body type. I may do the same technique a different way because it works better with my style and body type. Same technique with two different interpretations.

But who am I to argue with you and your 20 years plus of studying your large VCD collection. :rolleyes:

Good luck finding a new school. :D

I'm not looking for a new school. LOL I found a couple of leads on places to train, but they're not schools.

No, I bought those VCDs from China to check on how the martial arts coming out of China are now, if they're mostly wushu or what, if there's any use going to China to train. Turns out it's mostly really weird stuff. I don't think it's worthwhile going to china.

If I want to learn a ton of Chinese forms with dubious lineage taught in an acrobatic manner, I don't have to go to the Shaolin temple, all I have to do is go to Shaolin-Do. :)

[brucereiter]

For everybody that's ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time. For one thing, if you study the applications, they overlap between the martial arts.

Plus, who has the time to learn a bunch of new forms and practice them in addition to whatever forms you already practice? I sure don't. Add to that the fact that every new school requires you to do the forms their way. Yang Tai Chi, for example, there are so many different variations.

So I think that a school where you can train in a fairly realistic manner (sparring) that doesn't require you to learn their forms or a lot of new techniques is probably optimal. Hence something like Ring Sports United with a MMA focus.

As for what Gene said about the health thing, I think that's right on. Most of the people I've met recently in schools seem to be there to get healthy and lose weight. The martial arts was just a side thing that is less boring for them apparently than going to the gym and working out. Plus, you don't really want kids doing weights and treadmills.

For example, the local TKD schools are loaded with kids and fat teens. TKD seems to be primarily a way for parents to stick their kids in something to help them stay in shape and lose weight, and the tournament and belt aspect keeps them interested. (Oh, and not to mention the time the kids spend in TKD is like a babysitter).

Adult Tai Chi (non fighting and non contact) seems to be popular with everybody in the 35+ age range.

Plus, there is the liability thing. You teach people martial arts like they used to, and you get hurts, ouchies, sprains, broken bones, etc., and that's a big liability. MA insurance is like the 1-2 million range, so if somebody sues you for over $2 million (if they break their neck in a throw you're probably looking like $10 million+). This is the reason I personally don't open a school. Otherwise, I'd open a school tomorrow.

hi neil,

i understand it can be frusterating going to a new school and "relearning" ma. even within a single system teachers perform their arts a bit different.

have you thought about opening your own school? i think you said you have 20+ years of practice. if you have your own school you can do and teach what ever you want.

[neilhytholt]

hi neil,

i understand it can be frusterating going to a new school and "relearning" ma. even within a single system teachers perform their arts a bit different.

have you thought about opening your own school? i think you said you have 20+ years of practice. if you have your own school you can do and teach what ever you want.

Seriously, I have considered it many times. But there are a few problems with that, financial, liability and political. I don't want to teach kids and around here there isn't a market for non-MMA non health oriented schools that I can tell. Plus, I can't find a MA liability policy over 2 million, so if somebody gets hurt and sues me for more than that, I'm kindof screwed.

The political problem is the only style I have a senior rank in is basically closed-door and I can't really teach it out without seriously making my teacher mad. I thought I would teach once my teacher retires in a few years, but he told me he's planning on teaching for another 10 years until he's well into his '70s! (ouch!) Maybe he will change his mind. But if he even knew I was talking on forums, he'd be extremely upset.

[brucereiter]

Seriously, I have considered it many times. But there are a few problems with that, financial, liability and political. I don't want to teach kids and around here there isn't a market for non-MMA non health oriented schools that I can tell. Plus, I can't find a MA liability policy over 2 million, so if somebody gets hurt and sues me for more than that, I'm kindof screwed.

The political problem is the only style I have a senior rank in is basically closed-door and I can't really teach it out without seriously making my teacher mad. I thought I would teach once my teacher retires in a few years, but he told me he's planning on teaching for another 10 years until he's well into his '70s! (ouch!) Maybe he will change his mind. But if he even knew I was talking on forums, he'd be extremely upset.

i am sure there are many ways to protect yourself from being sued. do more research.

why wont your teacher give you permission to teach? would you be in compitition with him for students?

since you do not want forms it seems, if you were upfront with your students would you need to teach you teachers system?

[neilhytholt]

i am sure there are many ways to protect yourself from being sued. do more research.

why wont your teacher give you permission to teach? would you be in compitition with him for students?

since you do not want forms it seems, if you were upfront with your students would you need to teach you teachers system?

I better not say anymore since it's a highly political situation.

Suffice it to say that there's no money in this anyway, so it's pointless to try and teach other styles I don't want to practice. I don't think I could convince people to study with a non-ranked (or medium-ranked) person in other styles anyway.

[mantis108]

Suffice it to say that there's no money in this anyway, so it's pointless to try and teach other styles I don't want to practice. I don't think I could convince people to study with a non-ranked (or medium-ranked) person in other styles anyway.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to convince people to study with you whether you are ranked or not. Traditional Kung Fu has no ranks. I have no rank but I have black belts (some from another town) from other arts that come to me. The key is that you need to be exceptionally good at what you are doing (not saying that I am exceptionally good) or that you have a vision and organized materials for the potential student to achieve the goal and their best. The truth is when you have good stuff, people will come to you even if it's by word of mouth (the best advertising there is).

So worry about polishing and perfecting your program rather than worrying about people are going to come or not.

Mantis108

[rogue]

I've been driving 30 miles each way once a week for the last two years for private lessons, but outside of that I haven't set foot in the dojo much at all. For me it boils down to spending time with my family or spending time doing the three Ks over and over. I'm also using some of the time I used to spend in the dojo to get to the gym with my wife and get a good workout in. I'm surrounded by so-called affluent neighborhoods, but people have ****ed away alot of money on extra big houses and new cars so I can see why they've cut back on activities. It's funny seeing these 3600 sq foot $600,000 homes devoid of furniture. They'll cut back even more when they have to heat the **** things.

And now we're getting into the summer dojo duldrums when attendance always goes down.

Sorry to hear about your school Oso, have you thought of subletting it to other schools to reduce empty floor time? The guy that I know bought some top of the line mats when he opened his school and that made it easy for some Aikidoka and now a BJJ guy to set up shop in his school.

[emplion]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c184/emplion/DSC08745.jpg

Greetings, any schools here teaches lion dance?
Gd day,
Joshua

[Oso]

Rogue:

I just had an opportunity to do that. You must have missed my "Ya'll check me on this" thread.

I met a tai chi lady who seems to know her stuff...cute little chinese lady about 4'11. But...her tan tui style kicks put mine to shame (well, that's not saying much)...anyway, she seems to know her stuff and is very energetic and obviously excited to teach her tai chi...short version: we worked out a deal where she would start teaching 2 times a week. I was going to let her teach for the month of April for free and then do a 30/70 split with her. Well, they hung a few flyers around town...I got them a demo at the local community college...and they came for the first two days in April and then didn't show for the 3rd class because 'no one is coming'. I gave them a short dissertation on the number of times I was sitting in the gym aerobics room by myself the first year I was trying to teach and haven't called them back. Next time they call me, it's going to be a flat $25 an hour to rent the space....ya bend over backwards for someone and they just don't get it....

trying to work a gig with the local Girl Scout chapter to start doing some SD classes. I did one for a troop and the girls dug it and the leader was real happy with the things I said.

not giving up yet...it's just real low at the moment.

[mantis108]

Hang in there, buddy. You can do it. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

Thanks, Robert. Frankly, I can't give up...I don't know what I'd do.

[neilhytholt]

Rogue:

I just had an opportunity to do that. You must have missed my "Ya'll check me on this" thread.

I met a tai chi lady who seems to know her stuff...cute little chinese lady about 4'11.
not giving up yet...it's just real low at the moment.

Oso, you have a school in Asheville ... Tong Long Men ... sounds like some sort of Mantis. You probably have at least one form you can do nice and slow like they do Yang Tai Chi these days.

Just market the crap out of it. Claim this is the best thing for health, claim Buddhist Taoist influences. (Heck, what Chinese MA can't claim Buddhist or some Taoist influence), stick up fliers all over UNC and in the cafes and all that.

Or teach women's rape prevention. That should be a big one. "Get healthy and in shape while you learn how to protect yourself." Get a lot of padding and have them attack you.

Or teach to seniors ...

Start Asheville's "Little Mantis" kids program. Offer deals for the entire family or something.

[Chief Fox]

neil: I know we're going around and round on the forms subject and to be honest I was a little bored at work yesterday. So I apologize for being argumentative.

It sounds like what you really need is just a couple of good training partners that you can hook up with a few times a week.

I go to my sifu's house twice a month for instruction. The rest of the month I meet up with friends to review the material.

[Oso]

Oso, you have a school in Asheville ... Tong Long Men ... sounds like some sort of Mantis. You probably have at least one form you can do nice and slow like they do Yang Tai Chi these days.

I have a tai chi form...LOL...the Chao Family 36-37 ;)

Just market the crap out of it. Claim this is the best thing for health, claim Buddhist Taoist influences. (Heck, what Chinese MA can't claim Buddhist or some Taoist influence), stick up fliers all over UNC and in the cafes and all that.

naw, there's already too many idiots claiming that crap...we even have our own 'cosmic chi center' now. :rolleyes:

Or teach women's rape prevention. That should be a big one. "Get healthy and in shape while you learn how to protect yourself." Get a lot of padding and have them attack you.

working on that with Red Cross and the Girl Scouts

Or teach to seniors ...

too diversified...I have a full time job as well so I only have 3 time slots each night and saturday mornings.


Start Asheville's "Little Mantis" kids program. Offer deals for the entire family or something.

working on that as well...except it's "Little Bears"...not really. maybe 'mantis bears'...yea, just get with Mephesto and.....

this is a funky town for MA. very thick with over 20 schools trying to do their thing with a population of 70k or so....and there are another 8 or so schools in the county as well.

but, thanks for the input.



as far as forms and how old they are and what the 'old masters' did...what I'm hearing more and more of is that very few forms pre date the mid 1800's.

Cheif Fox: I totally agree with what you are saying about how you can interpret a move in a form a bunch of different ways. In the karate world, the differentiate between that interpretation, bunkai, and the 'original' intent of the form creator...can't remember what they call it...starts with an 'o' I think.

anyway, I find it great fun to figure out different ways to apply the principles or movements in a form. But, under the KISS rule...you don't really want a bunch of different options floating around in your head. You certainly can't train them all to a good enough degree to be reflexive.

I think this is where 'modern traditional' (post 1900) has maybe made some mistakes in propagating too many forms and the idea that those forms are the be all and end all.

just my thoughts.:)

[yutyeesam]

Oso,
Have you tried referral programs? Things such as having a "bring your friend" day, where all your current students have to bring in at least one person on a designated, and you have a specific, really high energy class for them (and even putting your students in front to lead sometimes), and then give an incentive to your students to have their friends to join, such as, whoever has the most people sign up gets a 3-section staff, for example.

Most of the time, it seems that what is needed is to just get people to the door. If you have good content, and are a great instructor with a great personality, that tends to sell itself. Getting people to the door is the biggest challenge.

As for getting your name out there, have you looked into the idea of doing a fundraiser? Like doing a Punch-A-Thon or a Kick-A-Thon, where each of your students take pledges from their friends, family, coworkers, etc., to sponsor them in an event to throw 1000 punches or 100 kicks. The money all goes to a charity, it's a special event that'll get students excited and on top of their game, and best of all, the media loves covering fundraising events, so it's free publicity. Some successful MMA do a Grapple-A-Thon, and some TKD schools do a Break-A-Thon.

You may want to solicit local publications and tell them that you're willing to write columns about martial arts. Anytime there's a story about where martial arts are involved, a lot of times, it's written by non-martial artists. Offer this service, and I think you'll be surprised.

Are you friends with other business owners in town? You may want to have a setup with them where they hand out your card/brocuhure to their customers, and for every person that joins, you can give them a percentage of your enrollment fee (like $50 or so). You can do this same method with other martial arts schools who are vastly different from yours, like say, a grappling or throwing school, or even TKD schools.

Marketing is tricky. Demos and flyers can only do so much. They tend to work better when you have other marketing methods (like what I mentioned above) in place simultaneously.

Are you the only Kung-Fu guy in town?

-123

[Oso]

Oso,
Have you tried referral programs? Things such as having a "bring your friend" day, where all your current students have to bring in at least one person on a designated, and you have a specific, really high energy class for them (and even putting your students in front to lead sometimes), and then give an incentive to your students to have their friends to join, such as, whoever has the most people sign up gets a 3-section staff, for example.

yep. I have a stepped program where they recieve weapons, sparring gear and even a permanent reduction in their tuition.

Most of the time, it seems that what is needed is to just get people to the door. If you have good content, and are a great instructor with a great personality, that tends to sell itself. Getting people to the door is the biggest challenge.

agreed...I won't blow my own horn in regards to how good a teacher I am or my personality (LOL). Till this spring my overall retention has been high. I just don't get that many walk ins.


As for getting your name out there, have you looked into the idea of doing a fundraiser? Like doing a Punch-A-Thon or a Kick-A-Thon, where each of your students take pledges from their friends, family, coworkers, etc., to sponsor them in an event to throw 1000 punches or 100 kicks. The money all goes to a charity, it's a special event that'll get students excited and on top of their game, and best of all, the media loves covering fundraising events, so it's free publicity. Some successful MMA do a Grapple-A-Thon, and some TKD schools do a Break-A-Thon.

well, I co-promoted the tournament that was a charity benefit but the ******* I teamed with stole all the media attention.

I just did and awareness/self defense program for a girl scout troop for free and will be working to start a program with all the troops.


You may want to solicit local publications and tell them that you're willing to write columns about martial arts. Anytime there's a story about where martial arts are involved, a lot of times, it's written by non-martial artists. Offer this service, and I think you'll be surprised.

that's something I haven't thought of. thanks.

Are you friends with other business owners in town? You may want to have a setup with them where they hand out your card/brocuhure to their customers, and for every person that joins, you can give them a percentage of your enrollment fee (like $50 or so). You can do this same method with other martial arts schools who are vastly different from yours, like say, a grappling or throwing school, or even TKD schools.

Marketing is tricky. Demos and flyers can only do so much. They tend to work better when you have other marketing methods (like what I mentioned above) in place simultaneously.

I have pretty much done everything marketing wise. We're getting ready to do another flyer push for a summer only program and will do another women's only class in the fall. dropped money in print ads w/ 0 return.

whenever I check with my students to see if they are having any succes with their friends they say they try and talk it up but nobody is really interested.

laziness is fairly rampant I think.




Are you the only Kung-Fu guy in town?

-123

nope...there's a shoalin-do school right down the street and another SD guy teaching out of a community center only about 3 miles away.

another guy who is doing a mix of stuff, mostly internal

3 or 4 tai chi folks

and about 10 other karate or tkd schools.

I'm reevaluating my curriculum layout and trying to pare it down a bit and maybe jazz it up some so it's a little more exciting...without feeling like I'm dumbing it down.

[mantis108]

Just a thought... I think a lot of schools these days are there to do business and business only. i don't think that's good for marketing the schools. I mean do they care what's happening to the community that provides the student base? I think you are somewhat on the way to caring about the community working with the girl guides and other groups. If you can capitalize on the momentum, may be it would open up a lot more doors for you. Business is about relationships too. An extra step goes a long way. So....

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Chief Fox]

do you have a website?

I could help you out with this if you don't.

I hate to hear that a kung fu school is hurting. I could put together a quick little website for you. Special, one time offer, kung fu brother pricing of no charge!

[Oso]

www.ashevillemartialarts.com


thanks though, I appreciate the thought.

my problem is I have what my senior students who are closer to me refer to as:
"The Conflict"

I've always trained hard with the only emphasis being on fighting. I guess I've been lucky that the teachers I've stumbled across have matched up well with what I want.

Nobody in this town seems to want to learn kung fu for fighting...or rather, they don't want to train kung fu the way you need to train it do fight with it.

anyway...gotta get ready for a sash promotion tonight.

[firepalm]

several of the clubs here are noticing a serious decline in numbers and some have shut down.

Personally I see several problems;
1) Culturally people are changing, short attention spans (MTV generation & fast food syndromn), a lot of different things to do now (too many chanels on TV, internet, etc...), and as someone said people are just lazier now...

2) so many different martial arts vying for the same students; Modern Martial Arts, Cardio Kick Boxing, TKD, Capoeira, Freestyle, McDojos, etc... all cut into the same market that CMA is vying for. And CMA is just harder to find, there is maybe fifty active CMA instructors here and only one or two of them can be found in the Yellow Pages or do any advertising, versus all the other forms of Martial Arts that maintain a much higher mainstream profile.

3) the CMA community is so fragmented and spends so much time dealing with it's own internal strife that it can't get it's head out of it's own a s s long enough to look around realize there's a problem and do something collectively about it... Vancouver's CMA community now has three CMA type unions / associations, none of which does very much of anything to promote CMA outside of the Chinatown community (and that they don't even really do much of).

4) Attitude, some (not all) CMA instructors have the most apathetic outdated attitudes when it comes to training & motivating students. Some still cling to extremely old methods of training and don't try absorbing anything new. Some still don't do much in the way of stretching, conditioning, supplementary training. Nothing wrong with trying to maintain your traditional style but keep an open mind and look into new ways of training and motivating students.

5) the image of CMA is not so strong as it was say twenty or thirty years ago. People don't immediately think of CMA when they think of practiical self defense or fighting. Let's face it the truth is not that many CMA clubs produce fighters and this doesn't do much to promote the image of CMA as a practical fighting art. Now certainly there are some schools that are an exception to this.

The good thing about CMA as I see it is they have diversity that typically can't be found in any other Martial Arts. What I have noticed is that the CMA schools that embrace this diversity are the ones that tend to do well and survive the lean times (be they driven by poor economy or changing cultural interests). Many of the CMA schools that I see doing well here in Vancouver will often teach a traditional style or two but will also include programs such as Modern Wushu, San Shou, Lion Dance, women's self defense and so on. Also schools that keep a high public profile tend to do well (advertising and promotions).

Personally the way I see it is that all CMA instructors should want to and try to help build up the mainstream pubic image of CMA and pushing the diversity of CMA is one positive way to do it. If the public image of CMA is strong then all benefit.

Just my two cents :D

[Oso]

Answer: Shoot one of them.

;)






I agree, firepalm.

dig this though: I've had this guy who is a bjj student back home (about 5 hours from here) but is in school here in Asheville come in once before to see what was up. Decent enough dude and decided who wasn't ready to do any crosstraining and was going to keep doing just the bjj for a while yet. He comes in last night while I was giving a test and asked if he could interview me for a journalism project he was doing in school. It was about 'MMA in NC' and he's interviewed some guys I'd never heard of on the MMA scene here and wanted to interview me to get a TMA's perspective. I've asked for a copy of the paper when he's done. :D I got to get on my soapbox a bit. We'll see how it sounds if he uses any of it.

[Green Cloud]

You said it kat nap.

[neilhytholt]

The thing that is really destroying the martial arts IMHO is a lack of standardization.

What I really want to find is a decent CMA system with schools pretty much everywhere, that includes self defense techniques besides just forms, but I can't find one anywhere.

So that really limits it for me. As a result, I pretty much don't want to study with any teacher. Why study one system or with one teacher, and then you move somewhere else, and have a new one correct everything or require different forms, etc.? It's just ****ed stupid.

But this came about because of the very greed of people. Most people who start a school add their own stuff on to create their own style and want to be a 'grandmaster' and make a ton of $$$ (so they think).

Instead, they go out of business because there are so many 'grandmaster's' around. Just look at what happened to Ed Parker's Kenpo (now split into hundreds of offshoots) or how many different styles of karate are out there to look at what happens there.

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, that is it. I think the only solution is just to quit martial arts.

I've searched and searched around for schools that will let me transfer my forms, or do my own thing, and all I've found is ridicule, apathy and scorn from martial arts teachers who all want you to do their martial arts, their way, and won't let you transfer anything over.

There are so many schools that don't teach proper self defense techniques in the CMA arena, instead requiring you to do a ton of forms, and every new school or 'master' seems to want to make a buck by adding onto their system or modifying it in some way, which IMHO is just shooting themselves in the foot.

I went to a BJJ school this weekend thinking that was the solution, but they do all these tricky gi techniques that will never work without a gi.

Therefore, I've had it.

[mantis108]

While I believe Martial Arts is an education, it is no ordinary university program. There simply isn't any such thing as western academic system of "transferring" the forms, credits and/or knowledge.

Frankly, Martial arts may not even be the best answer to self defense in modern times. Many people would tell you that go buy a gun if you want the most effective SD protection. But what if there's no gun?

If martial arts system to you means nothing more than self defense knowledge within a system, then really there isn't much for you to look for within that definition. You can find that in just about any "martial arts" or even martial sports.

Martial arts as a knowledge is about knowledge of self (or at least it points to that) IMHO. If your cup is full, then there is not much of a point to fill your cup unless you are ready to empty it.

I don't claim to understand BJJ but I respect it under the impression that it is an MA which offer a series of skill sets to reach the knowledge of self via four paths Gi, No Gi, Vale Tudo, and Street. In that regard, it shares similar goal with Kung Fu. Even though they may not be your cup of tea, that doesn't mean that they can't relieve other's thirst on the quest of self knowledge.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

While I believe Martial Arts is an education, it is no ordinary university program. There simply isn't any such thing as western academic system of "transferring" the forms, credits and/or knowledge.

Martial arts as a knowledge is about knowledge of self (or at least it points to that) IMHO. If your cup is full, then there is not much of a point to fill your cup unless you are ready to empty it.

I don't claim to understand BJJ but I respect it under the impression that it is an MA which offer a series of skill sets to reach the knowledge of self via four paths Gi, No Gi, Vale Tudo, and Street. In that regard, it shares similar goal with Kung Fu. Even though they may not be your cup of tea, that doesn't mean that they can't relieve other's thirst on the quest of self knowledge.

Mantis108

There should be standardized forms and techniques, not 1000 different variations that you can't practice with other people. All the CMA comes from the same place anyway, so there's no need for so many different variations.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. I'm done. Let others pay people $$$ and waste their time. IMHO the best self defense is at this point is either running away, a gun, or getting hit so you can sue the person's ass off.

[Golden Arms]

If you played basketball for one college, then went to another one, would you just tell the coach you know enough already, and you dont need to do things his way? You are likely better off not doing martial arts with the attitude you display in your posts if it hasnt changed yet in your 20+ years of experience.

[neit]

i'm not good at remembering a bunch of different forms and such. thats where empty the cup is good. just go with what the current school is doing, since that must be what i came there for.

[neilhytholt]

If you played basketball for one college, then went to another one, would you just tell the coach you know enough already, and you dont need to do things his way? You are likely better off not doing martial arts with the attitude you display in your posts if it hasnt changed yet in your 20+ years of experience.

Whatever. Like I said, I'm out. I went to what will be my last martial arts school tonight, and explained them my position, and they still insisted I do the basics, like up blocks (which isn't really a block and leaves your vulnerable bone open), and down blocks (same thing).

20 years experience you can open your own school. I have enough of dealing with teachers. :) 20 years experience in the NBA and you're retired. I'm out.

[Golden Arms]

I hope you open one here so that I can pay you a visit sometime...

[neilhytholt]

I hope you open one here so that I can pay you a visit sometime...

Yeah, you probably just want to beat on me. No, I'm never going to open a school. Like I said, I'm out. :)

Now all I have to worry about is finding a non-stupid school for my kids. I think I'm just going to enroll them in Aikido. LOL

[GeneChing]

The Cost of Covid. READ Closing Doors, Open Arms: Part 1 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1593) by Kurtis Fujita

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/2302_Closing-Doors_Lead.jpg

threads
Lots-of-Martial-Arts-Schools-Are-Closing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?41246-Lots-of-Martial-Arts-Schools-Are-Closing)
covid (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)

[highlypotion]

There should be standardized forms and techniques, not 1000 different variations that you can't practice with other people. All the CMA comes from the same place anyway, so there's no need for so many different variations.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. I'm done. Let others pay people $$$ and waste their time. IMHO the best self defense is at this point is either running away, a gun, or getting hit so you can sue the person's ass off.

Yes, especially if you're going out all by yourself.

[GeneChing]

Did Covid close your school? READ Closing Doors, Open Arms: Part 2 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1595) by Kurtis Fujita

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/1209_Closing-Doors2_Lead.jpg

threads
Lots-of-Martial-Arts-Schools-Are-Closing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?41246-Lots-of-Martial-Arts-Schools-Are-Closing)
covid (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)

[David Jamieson]

Running a martial arts club or a gym has been a hard go for the last year and half.
I have seen some innovative ideas from a few different teachers out there who keep their classes going with online instruction.

Still, rent and taxes on buildings that you have your physical school in are there.

I sympathize with those people who are going to have a little more uphill than they want or need to get their groove back.

[Jimbo]

Martial arts schools in general had been closing in my area for years now, since WAY before the pandemic. Even several BJJ academies had come and gone. In my observation, martial arts are nowhere near as popular, especially as an activity for adults, than they were back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, and maybe into the ‘90s, and may never be again. A lot of it is the popularity of MMA, but not all of it. Mostly the classes I’d seen while out and about in recent years are kiddie TKD, karate, jujitsu, etc., classes. And it’s clear that when children are the main (or only) focus of a MA school, standards of quality drop dramatically.

But I’m not lamenting the fact. It’s just the way the world is. Martial arts today don’t hold the fascination for young people/young adults that they did in past decades. Now, people can view anything at the click of a button and think they know all about it. And for most people, MA practice is seen as a high-effort, low-reward endeavor.

[YinOrYan]

In my observation, martial arts are nowhere near as popular, especially as an activity for adults, than they were back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, and maybe into the ‘90s, and may never be again.

Yeah, "high-effort, low-reward endeavor" sums it up well. I think another factor that's often overlooked is the amount of handguns out there compared to back in the ‘70s and ‘80s...