Taiji, form or function?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As my students prepare for upcoming competitions it occurrs to me that they train with competition rules in mind. For pushing-hands there are so many limitations to Taji's potential that it seems almost pointless, even counterproductive. After last year's Nick Scrima tournament there were some heated debates about expanding permissable techniques to include Qinna (without actually hyper-extending joints, etc...).. allowing "leg boxing" and leveraged takedowns. But, sadly, the debate lost momentum and once again, the inner beauty of Taiji will be kept off-stage.

I suppose i am asking if people really train to use Taiji as a martial art. I am a huge believer in the health benefits of Taiji and the many wisdoms built into the forms, but.. at the end of the day, Taiji was and IS a martial art.. and, as i tell my students, Taiji is for health and if you are disabled because you couldn't defend yourself, how healthy is that?

Should tournament Taiji competitions be more application oriented? Certainly, we want to preserve the competitor's health, but the current limitations are almost boring to watch or play. As we strive to advance Taiji as a total art form i think we should offer the tournament observer a much more realistic demonstration of Taiji's effectiveness.. It is difficult for the aspiring martial artist to discern the usefulness of Taiji by watching the usual Push-hands competition.. I mean, what do you do with an irate biker once you have pushed him off balance or made him move his foot? Taiji Push-hands competitions have no conclusion.

Just looking for some thoughts on these issues.

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

Make is so that both feet have to leave the ground for it to count as a point. this at least would demo who has a better grasp of the principles its harder to do (requires some real skill) and would be probably more interesting to watch.


(As we strive to advance Taiji as a total art form i think we should offer the tournament observer a much more realistic demonstration of Taiji's effectiveness..)

what you or anyone else does has little to do with the total art, competition is competition a sport. If people don’t understand what there looking at does it matter?

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Just looking for some thoughts on these issues.

Be well..

It's just a matter of saving face. If people thought that tai chi was more than a martial arts health dance, then masters would actually have to show fighting prowess, and when they can't beat the MMA guys, they couldn't make a decent living anymore by just teaching people the same form over and over again, and some push-hands.

[GLW]

I tend to be VERY closed minded on this subject...

Push hands is push hands.

From event to event, what is the breakdown of competitors that do MOVING step push hands vs. limited or fixed step push hands?

From m experience over the past 20 years, it is at BEST 20/80 with the 80 being fixed step.

So the competitors are not even using the avenues currently open...Moving step push hands is a vastly different game than fixed step. Certain approaches that end up with a point or whatever for someone in a fixed environment simply lead to the opponent flowing and stepping in a moving environment...and possibly even turning it into a counter.

Also, take a look at the light contact and full contact sparring events. (san da, sanshou) ...How many Taijiquan folks join in on those?

Not many if any.

So,...there ARE venues for using Taijiquan as a martial art that are open. Big hair deal if the sanda divisions are not Taiji only - THAT is what you want if you wish to show Taijiquan as a workable martial art.

So...if there were numbers of Taijiquan folks that were going in and cleaning up or even holding their own in large numbers of competitions..and they were then saying we would like to kick it up a notch...OK...

but right now, in most instances, they are not even making it out of the starting gate.

[mantis108]

Hi TCB,

This is hardly surprising. There simply is not set standard on the training methodology of Push Hand. Also the focus of developing attributes is vary drastically from one school to the next. Some schools believe in training the "sensitivity"; while others might want more technical training (ie Chin Na and throws).

I believe that to use actually combat applications from the Taiji form(s) is possible in so far as the martial arts combat basics are taught (ie breakfalling, striking, etc.) Also there should be a tangible program and progression of imparting skills. For example, single hand push to double hand, from double hand push, to linear moving step, then onto circular and finally free stepping. Chin Na (including takedown) and counters should be taught properly instead of a "lasser-faire" trial and error mindset. You might also have to apply the KISS principle encourage people to stick to the "high percentage" moves.

Most important of all, I think people have to look at the way BJJ became a success. It has held numerous challenges, demos and exhibitions before it actually became an integral part of what is now known as the NHB/UFC.

Personally, I believe public competitions of push hand at this point is FUBAR.

Just a personal opinion.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


If people don’t understand what there looking at does it matter?
Yes.. On one hand i see comments like this, then when a "fraud" is outed people lament how the public is deceived and it seems to really matter.. both instances are based on perception and misunderstanding.. The inexperienced see frauds and it reflects poorly on the Art.. likewise, they see push-hands and it reflects little as a "martial art".. The quote has an element of arrogance almost like the notion that Taiji applications are too dangerous for anything but actual combat..

At a not to distant tournament the Taiwan Taiji Team started pushing with some very robust techniques.. their opponents either met the challenge or got trashed, but i didn't hear complaints from the competitors.. the judges began penalizing the Taiwan Team for excessive force until the Team simply withdrew from the competition.. Prior to the withdrawal there was a nice crowd of interested observers.. after the withdrawal, the crowd dwindled to the players and their team-mates.. To the inexperienced, the robust pushing looked like Sumo collisions, fast and powerful.. To the experienced players, the collisions consisted of lightning quick applications of principles with street worthy results..

Perception becomes reality, the public sees polite "paddy cakes" push-hands and perceives a noble but ineffective martial art.. Taiji players can endure much more than the current US rules permit, why don't we? Our Kung Fu brothers fight with gusto and results, while we toy with elegant subtleties. Sometimes it seems like a stodgy exclusive club, controlling its membership with constricting rules and secret hand-shakes..

Keep it real, and.. Be well..

[splinter]

So, you're looking for a competition venue that properly demonstrates the martial value of Taiji?

As I think it was eluded to in a previous post, why not enter the venues that already exist? San Da, San Sau, MMA, etc.

I realize all of these venues will limit what you can do with your Taiji, but at least it's a place to start, and really test skills. If it's an issue of building public awareness of the art's effectiveness, this is a good way to go.

Of course, when there are fewer rules, there's more respect to be earned.

Another option might be Judo type of competition.

My experience in Taiji is pretty limited, but isn't throwing / locking and controlling the real meat and potatoes of the art? What about something like schuai jow (sp?) rules?

That way there are no gloves to inhibit felxibility or sensitivity, the competion rules put a focus on the skills that you're attempting to demonstrate, and with few enough limitations that people can go close to all out.

[qiphlow]

here are my two pennies:
regarding push hands, we unfortunately have to distinguish between "real" push hands and "sport" push hands. for me, push hands is not about competition--it's a partner exercise to develop sticking, listening, etc. i think the skills one acquires thru push hand practice can help add to one's self defense skill set, just like sparring can, just like form practice can. having said that, i think that when the object of push hands becomes winning a trophy, or a medal, or something like that, then that changes peoples mindset, and they turn push hands into a wrestling match. my personal feeling is that, like GLW said, push hands is push hands. if i am skilled, i should be able to unbalance my partner, or lead him out of balance, no matter if his approach is soft or hard. when i compete in tournaments, i always try to push the way i was taught (stick, listen, no force vs. force, etc.). i am not always successful, but at the end of the day i am satisfied because i played my own game. i try to get this concept into my students heads.

regarding taiji as a sport, i think we have to live with this. we don't really challenge rival schools in this day and age just to test our skills, so we have to do point sparring, or san shou, or the equivalent at a tournament. this is just the state of martial arts in america today.

i do feel that taiji should be taught as a martial art, and that students should learn applications, and use drills in class. and form work is important, and push hands practice is important. these are the foundation of taiji practice! the health benefits will come with the practice of the art, and if a student doesn't want to emphasize the martial aspect of taiji in their own practice, then they don't really have to. but in a school setting, then the martial aspect of taiji ought to be emphasized before the health aspect.

thanks for reading.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Geeeze, in the time it takes a dolt like me to type a post two good responses appear..

GLW: First, you are right.. there are venues for Taiji players to get down.. but, we (me included) have, largely, failed to prepare a Taiji only student for such a transition.. Second, i know of quite a few qualified Taiji fighters that have dropped out of the Taiji game in favor of the fight game.. I suggest a venue that bridges the gap between pushing and Sanda/San Shou.. like moving push-hands with controlled Qinna, leg-boxing and controlled strikes to the torso (maybe open-hand strikes to the torso).. not full-contact, but a stepping stone..

Mantis108: "Personally, I believe public competitions of push hand at this point is FUBAR."Evidence suggests you are correct.. Likewise, i think it would be a great service to the arts if we could begin to network and develop some training and competition guidelines among those that have a real interest..

neilhytholt:
It's just a matter of saving face. If people thought that tai chi was more than a martial arts health dance, then masters would actually have to show fighting prowess, and when they can't beat the MMA guys, they couldn't make a decent living anymore by just teaching people the same form over and over again, and some push-hands.BINGO!! nicely said, and.. all too true..

We can improve this image.. we simply need the will and and the perseverance..

Be well..

[GLW]

We TRIED a while back - read SEVERAL years ago - to include such venues in competitions.

Again, one of the starting places is going from fixed or limited step push hands to moving.... Typically, you have a hard time getting enough competitors to make it worth the competitors or the judges' time.

As for expanding techniques - it really boils down to a couple of issues:

The level or skill...or lack thereof - of most that go to compete.

Generally, they have limited skill or are good at dealing with someone that is following the rules (While they break them...) but can't do basic things....oh...like know how to fall down without breaking things...or know NOT to do a roll back with the opponent straight into your rooted leg....saw that one time where the guy did it and ripped just about every muscle when the opponent went into his rear leg as he was unbalanced....

So, if they can't execute those things, or respond to them, what chance is there of more complex or dangerous moves - like Shuai or Na...or leg techniques.

The second issue is liability.

Since the level is low, the liability in regards to injury goes up. The likelihood that a person will get carried away --- literally- is higher and no one putting these things on wants the insurance or legal hassle.

Originally, many of us trying this DID evision the level starting low but via the events and the other things that would be available and be seen, the hope was for the level to rise. We actually thought that stationary push hands would become a beginner/intermediate thing while moving would be intermediate and advanced...and then you would have Taiji folks also doing limited contact sparring (beginner and intermediate) and then sanda / sanshou later....

We can see how THAT vision went.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The quote has an element of arrogance almost like the notion that Taiji applications are too dangerous for anything but actual combat..)


makes no difference to me one way or the other, me arrogant hardly.

What does it matter what the public thinks unless one is selling something.


(For pushing-hands there are so many limitations to Taji's potential that it seems almost pointless, even counterproductive.)

yes counterproductive so why do it or train for it?

[viper]

Tai chi bob I practise wing chun as my primary system i do some tai chi but not as extensive though there are alot of transferable attributes. In australia there are limited options as to tournaments one called national all styles its very karate biased there are many limitations for a kung fu prac etc Im not able to use a larp sau or grabbing hand this is classed as graplling ,qinna is a almost unheard of word trapping is classed as grappling my point is that tournaments are for the testing of ones skill and if the other competior is unable to cope pherhaps they should not be in it. I belive control is definetly at parramount yet there is no reason competent ma cant use the techniques without injuring the other and displaying control. It pains me to see in comp that kunfu is reduced to mild shadow of itself.

[Shooter]

I'd ask myself whether or not I can participate in a competition without competing.

If the goal is to win, is it really a test of one's taiji?

If the goal is to test one's learning, then there should be no consideration given to winning or losing.

[yangyang]

I believe push hands competitions are a waste of time. Push hands don't necessarily show that one person is a better fighter than another person anyway imo. It is an isolated drill for someone to work on a few particular techniques. That's all it is meant to be. I will give you a perfect example of what I am saying.... In my first TC school, a new student started who never learned any TCC. He was 6' 2'' and a tad lanky. After 1 month of him just learning the 24 form and a wee bit of basic push hands, he entered a tournament in NH and WON FIRST PLACE IN TC PUSH HANDS. After I saw that, I was disgusted. That told me all I needed to know about tourneys.

Another HUGE issue that hasn't been discussed much here is the lack of skill in the judging. I've seen some very lame people who are put to decide skill in these contests. Some of these so-called judges aren't even TC people. Blah...:mad:

[bamboo_ leaf]

(If the goal is to test one's learning, then there should be no consideration given to winning or losing.)

this would be the only reason, i would say to go.;) but this can and is often tested out of a compitition enviroment.

( Push hands don't necessarily show that one person is a better fighter than another person anyway imo.)

true but it dose show skill and understanding of certain ideas, with out which the main tenants of taiji are lost. A better fighter, mmm there are many good and great fighters but this does not mean that they are good at taiji. Understanding and knowing taiji does not neassarly make one a great fighter.

The middle ground would be hopefully that one meets others who can demo the ideas in push hands and translate it to free hand and free step; leading to a way of understanding how and what to pratice, leading one to the essence of taiji. Having said this, if ones skills are pretty good in push hands it should be rather obvious as to what and how everything else works.

[neilhytholt]

If you look at push-hand type practices in other arts, it doesn't seem like push-hands is an end-all be-all in itself.

But I have yet to find anybody who agrees on the actual form applications of taiji (from a grappling and striking perspective). Therefore it would seem impossible to have a judging of the applications without actually agreeing on what they are first.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Understanding and knowing taiji does neassarly make one a great fighter.

Does, or does not.....? My view would tend to the latter.


The middle ground would be hopefully that one meets others who can demo the ideas in push hands and translate it to free hand and free step; leading to a way of understanding how and what to pratice, leading one to the essence of taiji. Having said this, if ones skills are pretty good in push hands it should be rather obvious as to what and how everything else works.
The problem with this philosophy is that it creates some interesting expectations as to what a fight, with a tai chi fighter involved, looks like. Every stylist out there wants thier fight to look like thier form, but reality has other plans and always will. The most graceful tai chi fighters I know of are that way because they practice fighting more than forms or push hands.....

[QuaiJohnCain]

But I have yet to find anybody who agrees on the actual form applications of taiji (from a grappling and striking perspective). Therefore it would seem impossible to have a judging of the applications without actually agreeing on what they are first.
Hmmm.... Postures and movements don't have concrete functions.... When it comes to a real situation, postures, principles and apps are usually mixed together in order to match the situation. On the technical side, a single movement/posture can be used as a strike, grappling move, or throw, depending on footwork, angling and postioning. But you can't get stuck on trying to define things statically. For instance, a low drilling punch is the same basic moving structure to open a door with a knob. You can use Bagua's serving tea exercise to put on a jacket pretty slick-like, too!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The problem with this philosophy is that it creates some interesting expectations as to what a fight, with a tai chi fighter involved, looks like. Every stylist out there wants thier fight to look like thier form, but reality has other plans and always will. The most graceful tai chi fighters I know of are that way because they practice fighting more than forms or push hands.....)

I would say my experience has been very different. If what one does not look or reflect ones practice then why practice?

Why is it a boxers look like boxers, wrestlers look like what they do but some how taiji does not? Again this has not been my experience, taiji looks like taiji in usage, even if one did not know taiji they probably would note something very different going on.


Post note: I never understand statements like these, how can one practice something for a long time and suddenly when called on to use it, looks nothing like what they have practiced? How does one do that?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Taiji movements are not something imposed on another but reflections of a reaction to change.


(Understanding and knowing taiji does not neassarly make one a great fighter)

thank you, it should have been does not ;)

[imperialtaichi]

Taiji movements are not something imposed on another



I see that one of the "signatures" of fighting with Tai Chi as opposed to other martial arts is that we do NOT impose on the opponent as such; it is more like "manipulating" the opponent. While many martial arts simply "overpowers" the opponent.

So if you see someone using "Grasp Pea****'s Tail" in such a way that they are overpowering the opponent with the movements and posture, it is not really Tai Chi. But if you see the opponent being manipulated by the movements and get projected out with seemingly very very minimal force/movement then it is more like Tai Chi.

Even in push hand competitions, we often see participants pushing like Sumos; Powerful it may be (total power = internal power + muscular power), but definitely not Tai Chi and the power will reach a limit.

Ok, for all the ones who do not believe in internal power, we can substitute the "internal power" with "skilled subtle power".

Unfortunately, I do not see how with Tai Chi one can use muscular power and internal power simutaneousely effectly. So for my money, I'll place my bets on internal power :o

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Internal Power"... how is it expressed? Externally!

There is a balance, as in all things.. great internal potential fails without the external balance needed to express it. The most refined fuel does little when used in a crappy engine.. We tend to focus on extremes, when balance is more appropriate..

A Taiji trained fighter should be identifiable as a Taiji fighter, not too different from an Aikido player.. similar philosophies..

Be well...