new chi sao video and detailed analysis

[edward]

http://www.windycitywingchun.com/movies/scboth.wmv

The first part of the video, has both my student and I attacking. The 2nd part involves him just attacking and me just blocking.

In the first section, the majority of the attacks that are demonstrated are done from regular timing. Regular timing can be defined
as the opening you get in between 2 motions. For example, when a door opens and closes, in between those 2 periods is when you can go through. So, how can you see if it’s regular timing? Watch my student’s hand motions when it begins to move and just when it ends, and you’ll see that’s when I take my shots for attack. You’ll also catch an example of break timing, both my hands are on the outside and my student went for a pak + punch, I ended up kow sauing his punch in mid motion and then countered immediately with my own punch. So break timing you can say going back to the door example, is just when the door is about to close, I stick my foot in the door to stop its full motion. Finally you also get a glimpse of follow through timing, it happens within the first 5 seconds of the video and is my first hand combination, it begins with a chop and if you watch he’s already late to block it and he brings up a bong sau, by the time his late bong sau comes up, I’m already hitting him with another attack. And while he tries to block that next attack I’m hitting him with something different. Hand flow is so important with wing chun, all to often, people just practice chain punching. Its true that chain punching is very effective in a real fight and does help with the flowing, but if you chi sao and only chain punch, once you meet someone who actually attempts to block your attacks, you won’t know how to deal with the force.

Now watch the 2nd part of the video where my student attacks compared to how I attack. This is something I’m trying to work with him to improve, but trying to increase the speed of the attack will not lead to more success. You want to give as little hint as possible that you are attacking. What you can’t really see from the video is that when the hands touch, for example, the pressure let’s just say for the sake of discussion is only 5lbs, all to often, people will either go lighter or heavier, just before they attack. If you can maintain the same pressure your giving them less of a forewarning that you plan on attacking.

Also if you notice all the attacks are always done with full power and no contact. To me you need to practice and have this kind of control. I’ve been to both schools of thought from my earlier days before finding my teacher where we would just pound on each other and be all sweaty. The problem with hitting each other is chi sao is for development, if you start pounding each other and end up getting tighter, you’ll notice students start to develop flinching and leaning back and all other bad habits. It takes time to develop the guts to stare at a punch. Also, look at the range that attacks are done, notice that my attacks can still be extended through to follow through the motion, if you do an attack on your opponent and you end up fully extended, in a real fight you’ll be developing a fighting range that will end up being short to actual contact.

As for blocking, if you notice when my student moves to attack I immediately move to block. You can achieve this only if you know how to equalize and neutralize the force. A simple example is a bird who wants to fly, if he want to leave the branch he must push off with his feet, let’s say 2lbs worth and then he can take off. Now what happens though if when he pushes down on the branch 2lbs worth and you move the branch down equal to the 2lbs, he then can’t leave the point. In its simplest example, this is what it means to equalize and neutralizing the force, just coz hands are touching in chi sao doesn’t mean that you are doing this. If you want to take the 1st step to improving your blocking skills step 1 is simply learning how to e/n the force. Notice my turn motions are kept to a minimal since the range of all attacks I’ve kept at regular chi sao range, only if an when the attacks drew in closer would I place more emphasis on turning to defuse the force. In order to get good at blocking you have to first listen to what your opponent is telling you, the more muscle you use the less you can hear, in theory go with the force is much easier said then done.

[Dave P]

Well, I can say that you are quite busy evaluating the things shown in the video.

I see many mistakes and very unlogical footwork. (continuance loss of balance and sloppy non centerline attacks with completely streched out arms. ) Chi Sau is done to high and also not done seriously. I have also noticed a lot of tense in the arms, trying to absolutely block the opponents moves. Not even to talk about the use of a lot of force.

My opinion... Return to the basics, before doing flashy moves in front of a camera...

[couch]

Well, I can say that you are quite busy evaluating the things shown in the video.

I see many mistakes and very unlogical footwork. (continuance loss of balance and sloppy non centerline attacks with completely streched out arms. ) Chi Sau is done to high and also not done seriously. I have also noticed a lot of tense in the arms, trying to absolutely block the opponents moves. Not even to talk about the use of a lot of force.

My opinion... Return to the basics, before doing flashy moves in front of a camera...

I thank Ed for sharing. I love his clips because of his added charisma! One day I would love to visit Windy City WC or have him down to visit because of how much time he has spent studying with Augustine Fong.

Thanks for the clip, Ed. Not everybody shares, but everyone is a good arm-chair critic. Where was your Kiaaaa?!?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Matrix]

Thanks for the clip, Ed. Not everybody shares, but everyone is a good arm-chair critic. Where was your Kiaaaa?!?Hey Kenton,
I certainly agree with your sentiment. However, the criticisms seem justified from a technical perspective, except that I think having fun is a good thing. You should "play" the chi sao, IMO, and enjoy it. Being too serious can be an emotional form of tension.

When we post clips or opinions here, we will be attacked more often then not. That seems to be the case, at least from my personal observations. So if you have the guts to post, you better be prepared for the consequences. I also agree with your point of offering kudos to Edward for sharing the clip.

My big problem with Dave P's comment is that this appears to be his first post, so my suspicious nature leads me to believe that the criticisms are not purely constructive, and alterior motives are at work. I could be totally wrong here, but that's what my gut is telling me. Maybe Dave has a clip to share as well, so that we can all see how it should be done. :)

[Dave P]

Don't worry. No consperacy here. I'm new on this forum. Just want to look a bit further than the European forum. Yes, I just had a technical view at the movie. I just want to say that there is much to improve here. Especially basics.

Well, here a movie of wich I think there is a high quality Goa Sau...

http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/framevt/wongvideo/wonggoasaudivx.avi

Compare his footwork, stance and mobility with the movie this topic started with. Not even speaking of arm techniques.
Well, it's just a technical view of someone sitting in his chair behind the computer at this time. But I know what I'm talking about...

Greetings

Dave (Netherlands)

[Matrix]

Dave,

As I said in my previous post, I think that your criticism of the technical aspects of the video are justified. However, if we are all to be compared to the great Wong Shun Leung, I think that we might seem to pale by comparison. :)

Sorry to accuse you of any potential conspiracy. This forum has had many similar situations in the past, so I tend to be a little paranoid at times.

With respect to arm-chair critics, like I said before, it's the price we must be willing to pay to post here. As Norman Vincent Peale said. "The trouble with most of us is that we would rather be ruined by praise than saved by criticism."

[Liddel]

I to thought along similar lines with regard to horse and turning, Edward seemed like he had some turning and stepping to me, though IMO it was not connected to his hands as well as it could be, there were some actions that were 'all' arms
,but we all strive to be better :rolleyes: .

However Edward does explain his reasons for some things ( weather you agree with them or not ) in his first post Dave.....

I often find Vids a great training tool for those in them....being able to see yourself, your actions and timing is an invaluable tool, which is why they use them in so many other physical endeavours - football - golf - ping pong :D

The first part of the vid is a great tool for your student Edward, i thought for a number of actions you gave him if his Bong Sao and reaction with regard to said action was better he could have dealt with the attacks you gave him to maintain some control.

One other thing in the intrest of this discussion - fighting is not perfect but when we Chi Sao we "should be" looking to be as close as possible to perfect - with this in mind i noticed in the second part of the Vid after that transition your Bong Sao crosses your Fok Sao breaking a VT cardinal rule (for Me) of Crossing Hands.

Maybe this is how you do it but its something i try to stay away from with experienced skilled opponents.

Thanks for sharing Brother - it is appreciated :)

[k gledhill]

in [my] WSL VT we train to X the fook with bong in CHISAO ...but not in FIGHTING ...
One persons mistake is anothers goal ....there are a lot of things that are redundant in chisao to fighting.

[edward]

Let me just quickly say, posting a video is like giving out candy..... If you want the candy go eat it, if you don't like the candy then don't. I'm not hear to convert anyone to anything, do whatever wing chun, whatever line your heart tells you. As for critics I enjoy them, coz the majority of the time, when someone actually has something negative to say, something they've read or scene shock their own foundation in what their doing, putting enough doubt that writing negative stuff just makes them feel better........so the more negative stuff the better .

[Dave P]

Well, you can treat comments or critics any way you like. I agree, vids are very useful to help you observing and recognising your own mistakes and errors. If somebody posts a vid on the net with an explanation, others may think different about it. So be prepared. If you can't handle it, don't post it.

On the other hand, you could also get curious about the feedback handed out to you. Yes, I like to compare with GM WSL. Why not. Strive to be better.... never make compromises with yourself. You must not feel satisfied with the things you already know AND can do, but try to get even better, always! I understand that my critics in my first post are very confrontating, but every word I have said I mean. I think the overall quality of the WC shown in the video can use much improvement. Basics! Correct stance and footwork , use of hips, distance to the opponent, distance for attacking, correct elbow position, etc, etc...

Yes, we 'should' train as close to perfect as possible. So you can do two things now...

1. Don't bother my comments and continue doing the same stuff you were already doing

2. Just accept it, it is well meant. Perhaps even pay some more attention to basic exercises and improve it.

Greetings,

Dave

[edward]

Dave, nothing says brilliant and genius then quoting from a book or video, not. Hopefully you didn't spend all night trying to find that particular line so you had something clever back to say. Maybe your were fortuntate enough to have it bookmarked already or even highlighted. My quick tip to you, is once you can develop your own line of thought, (and from the looks of it the cubs might actually be closer to a world series then that happening), and not simply parrot what other people say, you'll take a tiny step into the world of progress.

As for your tip, if you actually read what I said... you know reading... group of letters become words and then you look from left to right then top to bottom to come up with a coherent thought, well if you don't... i clearly said i will be doing what i'm doing. Have a nice day :)

[Dave P]

Edward,

It's unfortunate to say that I think your way of responding is a bit childish.
No I did not need all night finding the right words. Perhaps you have noticed that I live in another time zone than you. The words I write are plane and simple and purely VT minded and so my own line of thought. Straightforward. If you find it clever, in this case I might take that as a compliment. I did not know you were some high level sifu, protecting his ego.

If you can't handle another person's opinion. Let's stop arguing. I find it a loss of time talking to a concrete wall. I have to quit writing for now. I have to train. Perhaps you should do the same....

Anyway...

All best wishes from the Netherlands.
Perhaps we can discuss this or any topic in a more adult way.

[edward]

No seriousl, have a nice day:)

[Liddel]

in [my] WSL VT we train to X the fook with bong in CHISAO ...but not in FIGHTING ...
One persons mistake is anothers goal ....there are a lot of things that are redundant in chisao to fighting.

Totally agree with your mindset in a way - IMO the only incorrect action is the one that doesnt work - Edward crossed his hands and the opponent didnt capitalise on this- so the action is fine.

It does break the rule of NOT crossing ones hands but Rules are made to be broken :cool:

IMO it could be said that this certain behavior would become redundant in real fighting like you say, but also on the other side of the coin one could develope this as a bad habbit if one were not aware why - you obviously ARE aware :D

There must be a reason why because WSL DID NOT cross his hands every time he did Poon Sao, one example exisits here in the link dave provided - its clear to see that he doesnt cross his hands although its Gor Sao which is closer to real fighting like you mention, but other pics ive seen of him he does, so.....

Im just a little curious now as to the reason you ( k gledhill and edward ) guys do it ON PURPOSE ?

[Vajramusti]

For some reason my windows media program wont open either Ed's or David P's links to videos. Perhaps tomorrow I will be able to see them from another location.
So my comments are limited by just reading the thread.
Inferring things from videos can be quite problematic. Discussing things is better- but then often enough an uncivil tone can end a dialog. Perhaps David P has a subtlety problem in English- his first post seemed uncivil-could be unintentional..
in any case- some opinions FWIW
1. I have nothing but admiration for WSL- but there sometimes can be the quality of true believer among discussants of any lineage including WSL's. BTW years ago I did poon sao with WSL- he was not dogmatic about whether the bong sao was one inch over the fook sao etc.

2. Chi sao is not fighting but it provides wing chun's training ground for lots of things.
Development and fighting are not the same things.

3. Wing chun folks should not allow others to trap wing chun hands...but it does not mean that wing chun hands are never crossed. Good grief- in training and in chi sao and the forms there are quite a few "crossings" in varying degrees,,,,
sup gee sao-in the opening of slt is a crossing hands, jip sao in chum kiu, biu sao in section of biu jee,
towards the finishing up of the sam pai fut motion towards the end of biu jee- each has a purpose. Sometimes the appearance of a crossing is not really a crossing.

4. there are differences in the details of body behavior that are not always easy to see in a video. I have NOT seen the video of Ed that was mentioned in this thread..it apparently involves training his student -giving him an opportunity to discuss different kinds of timing that apparently was not picked up.

5. I have seen other things on Ed's site and I also have a sense for what he does. He knows his footwork, he knows where his elbows are and he knows where the line is.

But then- things can be in the eyes of the beholder.

Everyone has opinions... good luck with the thread and all the opinions however expressed. Too bad another thread ended up with some confusion. and some patronisation(David P?)

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

1. I have nothing but admiration for WSL- but there sometimes can be the quality of true believer among discussants of any lineage including WSL's. BTW years ago I did poon sao with WSL- he was not dogmatic about whether the bong sao was one inch over the fook sao etc.

2. Chi sao is not fighting but it provides wing chun's training ground for lots of things.
Development and fighting are not the same things.

Dont get me wrong Joy, anytime ANYONE wants to cross thier hands while doing Chi Sao / Poon Sao or even in Gor Sao, BY ALL MEANS - DO IT !:eek:
I just saves me from having to find my own openings :cool:
If your more skilled and i cant take advantage then GOOD for you :D
Im sure for WSL "King of Talking hands" this wasnt really an issue given his skill, hence his dogmatic approach. I dont put myself in the same league....yet :)



3. Wing chun folks should not allow others to trap wing chun hands...but it does not mean that wing chun hands are never crossed. Good grief- in training and in chi sao and the forms there are quite a few "crossings" in varying degrees,,,,
sup gee sao-in the opening of slt is a crossing hands, jip sao in chum kiu, biu sao in section of biu jee,
towards the finishing up of the sam pai fut motion towards the end of biu jee- each has a purpose. Sometimes the appearance of a crossing is not really a crossing.


We all know Bui Jee is the exception to the rule but in most cases the hands are not crossed by my definition of the term, they just come from under the bridge IMO. Like you say its not really a crossing so i miss your point on that one. It has no relevance to the context i mentioned IMO.

Also IMHO the example you give such as "in the opening of slt is a crossing hands"
this is not an action but merely defining the center line, when would you use such an action where you have BOTH your hands crossed ? against what action do you use this ?......... :rolleyes:
I NEVER Block one action with two hands its against our ideals - if it happens it happens - try and make the best of a bad situation sure, but to do it on purpose only gives away an advantage to your opponent, thats all im saying here.

[Vajramusti]

Dont get me wrong Joy, anytime ANYONE wants to cross thier hands while doing Chi Sao / Poon Sao or even in Gor Sao, BY ALL MEANS - DO IT !
I just saves me from having to find my own openings

((You are entitled to your dreams))

If your more skilled and i cant take advantage then GOOD for you
Im sure for WSL "King of Talking hands" this wasnt really an issue given his skill, hence his dogmatic approach. I dont put myself in the same league....yet

((Did he have a dogmatic approach? Again- note carefully-I have nothing but respect for WSL. But- he was not the only one who spent lots of quality time with Ip Man)))



Also IMHO the example you give such as "in the opening of slt is a crossing hands"
this is not an action but merely defining the center line,
((More to it than that- if done right. The devil in the details---perhaps differences
in teaching and practice. Diversity-ok by me. I know where my center line is---dont need sup gee sau to find my center line))

when would you use such an action where you have BOTH your hands crossed ? against what action do you use this ?.........

((There are times....)))

I NEVER Block one action with two hands its against our ideals -

((You never use quan sao?? You choice- ok by me.
No sarcasm intended. To each his own.Cheers and bye for now-have to do wing chun)) joy chaudhuri

_____________

[Matrix]

Inferring things from videos can be quite problematic. Discussing things is better- Joy,
If you think inferring things from videos is problematic, then I would say that inferring things from videos you have not seen is exponentially more so. I'd really like to hear your honest opinion, once you've had the opportunity to view the video.

The potential sublties of language not withstanding, the comments offered were technically acurrate and valid as far as I'm concerned.
If someone doesn't care to hear these types of comments, then they should not post their videos. We all know that this is a not always the friendliest of environments.

Having said this, it's good to see you posting again. :cool:

Cheers,

[k gledhill]

bong moves force <---^---> relative to my centerline as I attack forwards.

wsl never worried about this angle that angle just that one understood the concept, master not slave.

[Vajramusti]

Bill sez: I'd really like to hear your honest opinion, once you've had the opportunity to view the video.

((Bill- I did look at the brief training video...Ed and his student are working on different timings. I did not see any special problems. Commentators are etitled to their own opinions-no big deal))

((David P- Media player wouldnt let me open the link you provided--- something about codex- and the level of security and possible lack of support from windows media.))



Having said this, it's good to see you posting again.
((I am not sure that it is all to the good))








Kevin Gledhill sez:wsl never worried about this angle that angle just that one understood the concept, master not slave.

((Bingo!))

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just watched the video...

Firstly, as to the issue of crossing one's hands: didn't see any big mistakes - especially since it's the WAY the hands are crossed (and at what moments) that makes all the difference when doing chi sao/poon sao/gor sao....sometimes it's actually a smart thing and sometimes even a good setup (he takes the bait) and you have an opening to make him pay.

Secondly: in the first part of the vid the guy on the right is dominating and in the second part it's the guy on the left who dominates - and I thought the guy on the left actually showed a more combat ready form of chi sao...as he was pressing the issue a little better - meaning a bit more forward energy and thereby taking some space away and being better able to fan sao (follow up hands)...

than the other guy - who seemed perhaps a bit too content to take "longer" shots that would not have done much damage if they landed and certainly didn't leave him in a good position to fan sao.

Conclusion: this was a fun chi sao (okay...nothing wrong with that, per se...) - but not the kind of chi sao that I would see as particularly meaningful if the goal is to maximize one's preparation for fight readiness.

[Liddel]

when would you use such an action where you have BOTH your hands crossed ? against what action do you use this ?.........

((There are times....)))



Joy - are you a member of government ? Im open minded, i see your POV on some things but i cant understand why you cant enduldge in some back and forth with examples, this is a discussion not a Argument where we are tryting to WIN.
Ultimate said it best -
"Conclusion: this was a fun chi sao (okay...nothing wrong with that, per se...) - but not the kind of chi sao that I would see as particularly meaningful if the goal is to maximize one's preparation for fight readiness"

I just offered MY OPINION on this situation and POSSIBLE points of focus. With examples.
I never mentioned my way is the $hiz, if thats what you think :rolleyes:
However "There are times" isnt really a sound rebutle to a ligitimate question is it ?



I NEVER Block one action with two hands its against our ideals -

((You never use quan sao?? You choice- ok by me.
No sarcasm intended. To each his own.Cheers and bye for now-have to do wing chun)) joy chaudhuri


Of course i Use Quan Sao - i think in your haste to stamp on my example you've lost your way -
My Quan Sao is NEVER used against one hand - in Chi Sao / Gor Sao it usually comes out whan my bong has being pulled down and a punch comes through the gap at which time my Tan comes out - Wa La - Quan Sao - but piucture in your head that one hand is pulling my Bong and the opponents second hand (hopefully) is blocked by my Tan - so Two Hands are Blocking / Touching Two Hands.

Use Quan against my one Sau and feel me Lop or Jut or Tut or Tok etc etc and Punch - Too easy, you may recover if your a seasoned VT practitioner, but you have taken a step back to take a step foward which makes you end up in the same place - thats hardly economic IMO.

Ive realised there is an exception for the rule for ME - if i get a side kick in sparring i use Quan Sao but actually Its Bong and a Wu Sau together touching (one) leg but this is because you need it against such a heavy action.

Just to reitterate - I did ask "Why do it on purpose" just to get thier POV because thats the type of person i am - Interested in others POV so i can understand and possibly learn.

I have my own ideas on "why" and Ultimate pointed out the most obvious in my mind - "sometimes it's actually a smart thing and sometimes even a good setup (he takes the bait) and you have an opening to make him pay."

Finally i do realise your POV when you say "I know where my center line is---dont need sup gee sau to find my center line"
But to give another example to reitterate my point - Lan Sao is one action in SLT that has overlapping hands but in application we use Lan Sao only on one side the odds of using left and right Lan Sao like you use in the form is next to Zero IMO. We practice these actions together but thier use is one at a time, while the other hand 'Catches the target'.
The same applies for your example, unless you could open my mind with an example that you use
- I respect your opinion Joy but if i disagree i will put my own point foward after all this is a DISCUSSION :)
Respect.

[Edmund]

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that you'd cross your hands in chi sao or gor sao whenever you're doing a pak da.

[Matrix]

Bill sez: Having said this, it's good to see you posting again.
Joy sez: ((I am not sure that it is all to the good))Joy,
My comment above is sincere. We've both been around here for some time now, so we know better then to take these things personally.

Difference of opinion is just that.

All the best,

[Vajramusti]

Liddel sez:
Joy - are you a member of government ?

((Sorry- no comprende the question. Sorry)

Also-
Of course i Use Quan Sao - i think in your haste to stamp on my example you've lost your way -

(I Just offered as an example of hands "cossing somewhat. There are other examples. I did not suggest only using it against only one hand. Lots of uses of quan sao .I dont know what you mean by haste-my key board skills are painfully slow.Rather write than type.))

Further-
overlapping hands but in application we use Lan Sao only on one side the odds of using left and right Lan Sao like you use in the form is next to Zero IMO. We practice these actions together but thier use is one at a time, while the other hand 'Catches the target'.
The same applies for your example, unless you could open my mind with an example that you use
- I respect your opinion Joy but if i disagree i will put my own point foward after all this is a DISCUSSION

((Civility is fine with me- you dont know me - so respect may be premature.
I avoid saying "never" in wing chun usage. The double lan sao in some conditions can be used explosively at close quarters to create space when you are cramped))

Edmund sez:I would have thought it was pretty obvious that you'd cross your hands in chi sao or gor sao whenever you're doing a pak da.


((many other situations- a double pak sao, some practical applications of tan/pak
inter alia))

Bill sez-Joy,
My comment above is sincere. We've both been around here for some time now, so we know better then to take these things personally.

((Bill-I dont think I have taken anything on this thread personally. I dont think there is enough discussion of wing chun- so boredom rather than taking offense somewhat involuntarily sets in. I break away for a while and then come back ... and presto- leave people alone to discuss (again) Draheim/Mazza, who is no longer with EWTo or which sifu has decided to give his secret stuff to whom. Maybe-its a net thing after all-the southern mantis folks have run out of stuff too- so they are revisting-Hagood/PooYee/Mak via students-major issues of our time.
Cant take everything on forums seriously))

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

(I Just offered as an example of hands "cossing somewhat. There are other examples.

Joy if were talking crossing "somewhat" then im right on board with you.
If were talking within inches where it makes it easy to trap the hands then i say dont do it if you can avoid it - thats all :)



((Civility is fine with me- you dont know me - so respect may be premature.
I avoid saying "never" in wing chun usage. The double lan sao in some conditions can be used explosively at close quarters to create space when you are cramped))


I may not know you Joy but ive visisted your web site (nice pics) i see Why your pushing this point foward - :rolleyes:
I was always taught to respect my elders -



I would have thought it was pretty obvious that you'd cross your hands in chi sao or gor sao whenever you're doing a pak da.

This is true Edmund but not the situation of specific instance i mean - you have much more space in this situation - space equals time - for you to react.

And the level of crossing hands, an inch maybe fine the hand is fine but when you cross past the wrist (which i thought you did but in watching the vid again you may have not) you do "run the risk" of a trap.

All i was looking for was the "why" you do it on purpose not to get into a PREFERENCE debate, we each have our way, my position has been made clear but i still ponder why you guys do it because you havent let me know.

Im not here to change minds :eek:
God forbid :D
Peace

[Edmund]

This is true Edmund but not the situation of specific instance i mean - you have much more space in this situation - space equals time - for you to react.

And the level of crossing hands, an inch maybe fine the hand is fine but when you cross past the wrist (which i thought you did but in watching the vid again you may have not) you do "run the risk" of a trap.

All i was looking for was the "why" you do it on purpose not to get into a PREFERENCE debate, we each have our way, my position has been made clear but i still ponder why you guys do it because you havent let me know.


Liddel,

You said:
"anytime ANYONE wants to cross thier hands while doing Chi Sao / Poon Sao or even in Gor Sao, BY ALL MEANS - DO IT !"

Which I thought meant you couldn't figure out when those situations would occur.

I think Joy say it best: You never want to let someone trap your hands but that doesn't mean the hands never cross.

It was pretty evident in the clip why Edward did it a few times.
His student pulled his hand down and chopped over it. When he did an outside chop, Edward had to put his back hand across his front hand to defend it.
When he did an inside chop, Edward was in a position to be trapped whether he crossed his hands or not. When his student tried to do it, Edward used his bong sao to counter.

As for the position of the cross - That's dependent on where the other person is attacking.

[YungChun]

What's up with all that use of 'tork sao'--the Pak like hand used to control the Tan instead of fook--we used to call that a 'cheat' in the old days and IMO it prevents both players from making use of position.. Also the over the top Lan sao is another one of those questionable moves which IMO don't help train valid attributes.

Beyond that there was a lack of Fan Sao, body connection--release of energy and forward energy in the 'attacks' which seemed to favor a 'touch him I win' nature to them.

[Liddel]

Liddel,
You said:
"anytime ANYONE wants to cross thier hands while doing Chi Sao / Poon Sao or even in Gor Sao, BY ALL MEANS - DO IT !"

Which I thought meant you couldn't figure out when those situations would occur.....

Hey Edmund,
No that was just my cheeky attempt at saying "if you wanna give me an advantage by all means DO IT " :)

But just to clarify - my concerns about crossing hands were not in instances of Say Pak Da as you mention but rather when practicing Poon Sao when one crosses the wrist of thier Bong Over the wrist of thier Tan Sao - my point was that it makes it easier for your opponent to trap your hands and catch your body before you can change and cover.
IE the trap is more direct thus faster than your recovery given a hypothetical situation of equally skilled people.

For me its a-kin to flying elbow and Chor Kui (sp?) or no elbow space.
If your more skilled than by all means you could do a lot of things that give advantages to your opponent and it wouldnt matter because they cant capitalize, but to develope good habits we TRY not to do it thats all......

Hence my wanting to know why you do it on PUPOSE ? which has remained curiously unanswered :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

Liddel sez:But just to clarify - my concerns about crossing hands were not in instances of Say Pak Da as you mention but rather when practicing Poon Sao when one crosses the wrist of thier Bong Over the wrist of thier Tan Sao - my point was that it makes it easier for your opponent to trap your hands and catch your body before you can change and cover.
IE the trap is more direct thus faster than your recovery given a hypothetical situation of equally skilled people..

Hence my wanting to know why you do it on PUPOSE ? which has remained curiously unanswered

((Single factor analysis-- the bong wrist crossing over the tan wrist- can be misleading and dogmatic. In poon sao--- many factors are being tended to and balanced-including the energy in the other fella's hamds. One is not doing poon sao by one self. So micro "adjustments" can and do enter in - for maximising the chances of controlling the opponent. Your question has not gone unanswered-because you appear to be stuck on the dogmatic assumption or pov that being trapped is very likely. If one's bong and tan can be simultaneously trapped- my suggestion would be that the person does not have a good enough sense for what bong and tan structurally are about and should go back to wing chun 101.
A good bong or tan should not "collapse" merely because someone is hell bent on trapping. The trapper can be hit before trapping is completed.)) joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

--we used to call that a 'cheat' in the old days and IMO it prevents both players from making use of position... Jim,
We still do. ;)
As for the rest of your observations, I agree. for what that's worth.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by YungChun
--we used to call that a 'cheat' in the old days and IMO it prevents both players from making use of position...
Jim,
We still do.
As for the rest of your observations, I agree. for what that's worth.
__________________

(((The details of poon sao can vary. The moy yat folks do it their way-others may do it differently? Use of position depends on skill -it would seem. ))Joy C

[Edmund]

Hence my wanting to know why you do it on PUPOSE ? which has remained curiously unanswered :rolleyes:

Given that Joy answered you a couple of times, I'm not sure I can add much that will enlighten you.

Your hands will cross in many instances in gor sao. Whenever someone does a lop da, they have the potential to cross your hands. Even if you don't cross your hands they have the opportunity to trap you. Whenever you do a pak da, you can potentially be trapped in a crossed position. Whenever you do a lop da also...
Gan da to the opposite hand. etc.

So with all those situations and more where it can happen why WOULDN'T you practice your poon sao with crossed hands?

[YungChun]

(((The details of poon sao can vary. The moy yat folks do it their way-others may do it differently? Use of position depends on skill -it would seem. ))Joy C

But how is skill developed--if any?

Is tork sao and fook sao interchangable in Luk Sao/Chi Sao in your lineage for WCK skill building? If so then I simply do not agree sir.

If you see your students using tork sao instead of fook what are you going to say?

How about trying a sneaky over the top lan sao as in the clip? Is that also cool?

Or how about like this:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/compressedmovies/sifu%20and%20neil%20chisao.AVI

Are these 'cheats' even allowed in Chi Sao competitions?

I question the lessons learned or not and the real possibility of training stagnation when these kinds of moves are ever present in chi sao training. Chi sao is after all a coperative drill with rules designed to develop specific system attributes--chi sao is not fighting, or worse point fighting.

Still there are other issues in much chi sao I have seen where body connection, fan sao and true control of the opponent's energy/position/balance is all but ignored in favor of flashy, flicky displays of "winning moves" that seem to go nowhere and only bolster the egos of those training--and I refer to no one in particular here..

Point is there are levels of learning and lessons to be learned and IMO not much of any of that is going to happen when 'winning' is the goal and defined in terms of what seems like "point sparring" based "chi sao".

[Vajramusti]

A bit on the run- gotta get to work. Please see brief responses(in brackets) to parts of your kind post.
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But how is skill developed--if any?
((In poon sao- learning how to control your motion and then gradually controlling the other person's motion))

Is tork sao and fook sao interchangable in Luk Sao/Chi Sao in your lineage for WCK skill building? If so then I simply do not agree sir.

(((See above- control, control, control))

If you see your students using tork sao instead of fook what are you going to say?

((Fok, tok.. in chi sao are dynamic enrgies not fixed static shapes IMO))

How about trying a sneaky over the top lan sao as in the clip? Is that also cool?

((If a line is open-its open))

Or how about like this:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images...l%20chisao.AVI

((I dont open links from this forum- some bad experiences))

Are these 'cheats' even allowed in Chi Sao competitions?

((I am not a fan of chi sao competitions))

Chi sao is after all a coperative drill with rules designed to develop specific system attributes--chi sao is not fighting, or worse point fighting.

((Not fighting, not point fighting, not really cooperative...))


Joy Chaudhuri
__________________

[YungChun]

IMO there are dissconnected cheap shots, easy ways out, ways to avoid training good structure, ways to stifle your partner and yourself and there is the reverse, which is a thoughtful progression that guides the student along a path of learning actual system components and tools. Goofing off is goofing off and methodical training are not the same thing nor will they produce near the same results.

And good grief... Chi sao, of course is cooperative, even with resistance, it's a given, it has structure and rules, well if it's any good it does--anything that isn't full resistance or a fight is cooperative and chi sao is about a billion miles away from a what is a fight.

[Edmund]

How is doing a lan sao cheating?
It's a technique. Don't you learn how to defend against it?

[Vajramusti]

Goofing off is goofing off and methodical training are not the same thing nor will they produce near the same results.

((Perceptual differences perhaps. I dont know what you mean. If you revisit Ed's original post you may sense his intention- its nota fight- he was demonstrating witha student two different kinds of timing. Try relating the video to his post.Nota fight and nota demonstartion of power
and nota points match. I understood what Ed was doing- he can explain further if he cares to. He is not in Chicago at the moment.))

And good grief... Chi sao, of course is cooperative, even with resistance, it's a given, it has structure and rules, well if it's any good it does--anything that isn't full resistance or a fight is cooperative and chi sao is about a billion miles away from a what is a fight.

((You are lost communication wise in your defintions...cooperative, resistance, full resistance... are
relative and subjective terms. Proper structure is serious business. But then there is timing. You obvious;y have reservations about what you saw- which is ok- people have opinions. Gotta go-actually have several days of chi sao ahead with different people. Chi sao has many purposes and levels of accppmplishment. It is not fighting but there is a relationship...much less than a billion miles away. Its a lab where many wing chun things are blended together.Ed's video was working witha student on two different kinds of timing as he said. If he was demonstrating closing- it would have been a different video--- positioning -a somewhat different video-lop sao- a different video- real match- a different video-regaining structure- a different video, fajing-a different video. Communication withouta context can become just noise- and perhaps we are approaching that. Easy to do in net communications.(( Joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

(((The details of poon sao can vary. The moy yat folks do it their way-others may do it differently? Use of position depends on skill -it would seem. ))Joy,
Very true. Please note that I said that I agree with Jim, not that we are necessarily "right" or conversely that anyone else is wrong.

I think it boils down to fundamental difference of opinion.
I'm happy to leave it at that.

Cheers,