Large and Small frame Yang style

[Mr. Nemo]

I often hear of a "small frame" Yang style which Cheng-fu supposedly only taught to certain people. Can anyone give me any information on this style, or tell me where I can find information on it?

[khinbu]

Yang Chengfu didn't teach small frame. He taught Taiji Changquan (Taiji longfist) to certain advanced students.

It was Yang Banhou who taught Small frame (which comes to us in present time as Wu Jianquan style Taijiquan) and there is Yang shi Xiaojia (Yang style small frame) or the Usage form handed down by Yang Shaohou to his students.


Wish for peace

[PlasticSquirrel]

i believe that both yang jian-hou and yang ban-hou taught and knew more than one frame of taiji. they were probably very similar, with the only differences being in the size of the frame, rather than a different sequence/different footwork. the main form probably differed quite a bit between jian-hou and ban-hou.

there is a natural progression in taiji that moves from large frames to small frames. this is quite obvious, especially amongst the yang style. once people reach certain points in their training, they will want to be more conservative in their forms and use more internal movement than external, resulting in a more efficient, smaller frame.

[Internal Boxer]

Small frame cannot be taught it has to be experienced. When the higher levels of Taiji are reached, the body no longer needs to do large movements to finish the posture. Gradually the moves become smaller and smaller, and therefore the changes from yin to yang are felt internally. As a rule of thumb, when you watch a master of the internal arts the less that is happening on the outside, the more that is happening on the inside. A master will show small frame to his students, as more of a signpost. So when you begin undertaking smaller movements without realising, you will no it is the correct path to advancement. But like everything in the internal arts, do not force it and do not search for it. It will come to you when you are ready.

[JerryLove]

Small, medium, and large frame postures do somewhat different things and are more appropriate in different situations and against different opponents. Certainly, some are more difficult than others to learn, but it's not as simple as "beginners do medium, experts do small" or anything like that.

[Scott Nordeng]

The large frame and small frame have two clearly different objectives. Although fighting applications are very similar, the large frame uses larger more stretched-out movements that align themselves with the meridians of the body. The small frame uses more compact movements that align themselves with the core energy channels of the body (i.e. left, right and central channel.) Whereas the large frame conditions the body from the outside to the inside,the small frame works from the inside to the outside. The small frame is the father of the Wu style (the Wu style IS the small frame Yang style.) However, the Yang family were not meditators. They were hard core martial artists so Wu Jien Chuan was more involved in Taioism and meditation and added some more Taoist and meditative components to the small frame that are found in the Wu style. You hear a lot how Tai Chi is movement meditation. Tai Chi is not meditation. Although it has a meditative quality as well as martial applications and cultivation of chi. One can lean toward one or the other at any given time for any specific reason. For healing purposes, the small frame can be more effective for cerrtain conditions because you can actually gain more energy than you give out whereas the larger frame is more balanced in that you give out as much energy as you get. Fruthermore, Chen stylists have a tendency to give out more energy than they get from their practice and some can develop kind of a "Tai Chi burnout". So it is clear that the small and large frame have distinctive differences and effects on the body.

twdsn

[Sam Wiley]

Small frame form is not merely based upon how open or compact the posture is. It has to do with the Internal being expressed physically. Internal Boxer is right.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Scott Nordeng]

Sam, you missed what I was talking about. Internal Boxer is not wrong (he just isn't really saying anything). What he is describing is the natural progression of large frame training. Like I said in my post above, the large frame works from the external to the internal, so as training progresses, the moves become less external and more internal, "smaller", if you will. The small frame develops the body from the internal to the external and the moves will get larger as the body opens up. The small frame and the large frame employ different principles. One example is large frame 70/30 weight distribution vs. small frame where the entire weight is on one leg or the other. No matter how small or compact your movements are, if you're doing the large frame, you would adhere to the 70/30 rule. The Yang style small frame is as different from the large frame as Wu style is from Chen Fu Yang style. I hope this clarifies things. The small frame isn't just a shrunken down version of the large frame.

twdsn

[Sam Wiley]

Both forms would have to employ the same principles, or else at least one of them would not be Taijiquan.

No offense, Rhino, but what you just wrote sounds like technobabble to me.

Small frame is an expression of the internal, where you do what your internal energy tells you to do, and has nothing to do with the openness or compactness of the postures, though typically the postures are smaller, because when we do the form at this level, the movements are less external and more internal, less physical and more energy and mind. Certain movements become imperceptible. Also, many postures are done differently, though they look the same. It's sort of like a form within a form. And because we are doing what the internal energy tells us we should do, we do not always adhere to 70/30 or 100/0 weighting, because if we have already finished the movement internally, then to go beyond that point physically is a waste of energy and movement. If we have finished the movement when the weighting is 51/49, then it is finished and to go beyond it is over-reaching as described in the Classics.

You are correct in saying that it is not merely a shrunken down large frame form, though. I have heard people talk about this same subject, and they describe small frame as just that. I have also heard people saying that small frame and large frame are two completely different forms (they are, but not the way they meant it). These arguments make no sense for a variety of reasons.

I cannot explain to you what I mean by small frame, you'd have to see it. I just get the feeling that we are still talking about two completely different things.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Scott Nordeng]

Sam--I suggest that you go back and review the post by Wish for Peace, basically saying that Wu IS small frame Yang style. To better understand what I wrote about in my last post, perhaps you could get together with someone who practices Wu style and compare that with your large frame Yang style. (I recommend finding someone who practices Wu style for your comparison because it would be almost impossible to find someone who practices traditional small frame Yang family style.) The three major styles, Chen, Yang, and Wu, have distinctive differences and yet are all Tai Chi. Just because one employs a different principle from the other, it doesn't mean they are not all Tai Chi. The same goes for small and large frame--the differences do not exclude one or the other from being Tai Chi. The examples I listed above help illustrate this point. If you can explore these differences with a Wu style practitioner, hopefully this point will become clearer. Good luck!!!

twdsn

[Sam Wiley]

You know what? Nevermind. I give up. Superficial differences really do mean the world. Hell, now I can really judge a book by its cover. And you know what? It doesn't matter whether or not I miss something important within the book, since I'm only interested in the cover. Have a nice day. ;)

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[MartinC]

There seems to be disagreement about small frame as a taiji form and small frame as an approach to any given form.

The orignal question by Mr. Nemo asked about small frame as a form. In that regard, there's a good historical overview at this URL:
Development Of Yang Small Frame and Wu Jian Quan Style (http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg6.htm)

This info doesn't negate Sam's posts though. I think he's right on as far as small frame as an approach.

Rhino's posts are more about small frame as a form, though they sound like they are copied from a B.K. Frantzis' marketing brochure. ;)

I think there is an inaccuracy though. I don't believe there's evidence that Wu Jian Quan or any of the Wu family proper were involved in meditation or Taoism. They were primarily martial artists like the Yangs and this is the path the mainstream Wu styles follow.

The Wu offshoot that B. K. Frantzis promotes adds Taoist meditation to tai chi. I don't recall seeing any documentation that this came from Wu Jian Quan, but instead from Frantzis' teacher.

[Internal Boxer]

I think Rhino has somewhat missed the point. I am sure forms have been taught in large and small frames. Although it would be quite pointless to undertake a small frame form purely from a pyhsical perspective. After the physical components such as body structure, muscle alignment, waist movement etc. are understood. The whole point of the internal arts is to provide a pathway for the augmentation of internal energy. I have a feeling the teaching of small frame forms have missed the fact that it is an expression of the internal. What is manifest in the external appearence is not as important as to what is happening internally. Take a master of Bagua, simple walking the circle in fire palm posture. a massive surge of internal energy will only slightly move the thumb or finger physically. The finger movement would be a martial expression that could contain a wealth of extremely powerful martial applications that is beyond the conventional understanding of the martial arts. Therefore after the pyhsical we should be focusing on the development of internal energy. Not pointing out the superficial appearance of a form. And that is the relevance of small frame forms in the internal martial arts. To be honest Sam sums up all that I have just written in his last post (nice piece of satire). Do not be obsessed with how things look we are focusing on the internal for Christ sake. Remember an internal martial artist may train for 20 years, but has he done 20 years worth of training. ;)

[Scott Nordeng]

I didn't miss the point--because there was no point. I never disagreed with Sam. He is absolutely right if you choose to take a smaller more internal approach toward your Yang style practice. However, if you believe that the old Yang small frame is represented by the modern Wu style, then you could view them as separate styles. If you agree that they are separate styles, like I do, you will understand that I was only pointing out differences between styles. I was not trying to be superficial or stuck on small technicalities. I was only trying to give out information to support what I was saying. The last thing Tai Chi needs is more esoteric babble. In an effort to encourage doing Tai Chi from the neck down(not on our computers), I had suggested that Sam or anyone else in Sam's position try some Wu style. Perhaps they could then discover a different type of internal work from what they are used to. Martin is right. This thread was twisted between approach vs. style.(reply to Martin) Frantzis does have a lot of good things to say about the health benefits of the Wu style. An example of the Taoist component in the wu is when you stand double weighted 50/50 there is no martial application spacifically intended for the double weightedness its there to center yourself clearly this was introduced to wu style long before Bk Frantzis' master learned the wu and as I said above tai chi is not medation. ps. that web site(lim,s) is great.

twdsn :)

[This message was edited by Rhino on 04-11-01 at 06:28 PM.]

[This message was edited by Rhino on 04-11-01 at 06:30 PM.]

[Internal Boxer]

I do understand that you were not disputing what Sam or myself was saying. But Let me stress again that there is no point learning endless different styles of forms. Hopping from Yang to Wu to chen. We should focus and re-examine just your own style. That is where the key to advancement is. Not in learning yet another form. Whatever your style of Taiji just focus on that. I myself have made the mistake of thinking I need form after form to yield different internal properties, but this is not so. To be honest, potent internal exressions can just be found in walking the circle with fire palm posture. And my training I have found I focus more on the simple external looking things because it gives me the ability to focus internally which then gets expressed externally. I walk the circle for an hour every day just doing single palm change. The feeling I get - WOW not only are my palms glowing but when I breathe in I can feel the energy drawing into my hand, it feels like a powerful force is sucking into my palm. when I breathe out the force just explodes from my palm. My spine feels like a red hot bar of steel. An example is one of Tungs best students (cannot recall the name) only did single palm change for the first five years of his training. We in the west want it all right away so we end up with a handful of forms, with minium internal content. Another important fact to bear in mind is that most of us can only train 2-3 hours per night after work, with only full days at the weekend. The ancient chinese did a full day every day. So in light of the fact that most of us are weekend warriors do you not think we should focus on the minimal pyhsical and the maximum internal!! Another example is one of the most powerful Hsing-I masters only ever practiced the wood element. Because it is INTERNAL!!!!Cause that is where the answer resides not in learning another form. Only a handful of people can do the long forms with full internal expression, i.e Master Erle montaigue and Bruce K Frantzis, etc. So for the rest of us not up there with the greats, keep it simple!!. So the best advice to give if someone is looking to learn small frame is direct them to the fact that it is an internal expression not put them off at a tangent encouraging them to waist time in learning another bloody form, that looks small. The answers lie in you!! Fools will laugh at my words but the wise will understand ;)

[count]

I just wanted to take the opportunity to welcome InternalBoxer, Rhino and MartinC to the forum. As to Mr. Nemo's original question, I have been told that Cheng Fu did teach a small frame form and this is likely where Wu style did originate from. I don't know enough about Wu style to be sure but I think shows in the more compact postures of the style.
Internal Boxer, I agree with your posts, but throw some water on it before you burn up! (just kidding of course) ;)

Maybe my favorite quote from the tao applies.


When the strong learn Tao, they practice it diligently;
When the average learn Tao, they practice it sometimes;
When the weak learn Tao, they laugh out loud;
Those who do not laugh do not learn at all.

[Sam Wiley]

Feng Zhiqiang, in a somewhat related note, said in an interview when discussing big and small frame styles, "Chen Changxing distilled the old style into two routines -yilu and erlu. It is called from many to a few, from complicated to easy. After this point, a distinction can be made between big and small styles.
Small style refers to the Zhaobao style, created by Chen Qingping....
Chen Changxing taught Yang Luchan. Wu Yuxiang went to see Chen Changxing but he was too old, so Wu Yuxiang went to Chen Qingping to learn the small style. After he learned from Chen Qingping, he created Wu style."

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Internal Boxer]

Count

Cheers mate it is good to find a site which copes with idiots like me. I am a natural sceptic about everything, but this stuff, the sensations you get are inexplicable! :eek:

I have been practicing in the shower with my missus the ancient art of Fu-ckEm Long!! Ho Ho

[count]

You are truely a man following my own heart.
Cheers!
;)