Tong Bei

[PangQuan]

Will be starting tong bei set soon, 3rd form after xiao hong, and da hong, in 10 shaolin set system.

always like to do my research before i begin something new, if anyone has access to any clips of tong bei (hopefully similar set from the 10 shaolin system, or even from any other tong bei practitioners) so i can get a taste for what i can look forward to.

thanks to you. :D

[rickyscaggs]

Try doing a google or yahoo video search for tong bei quan. I know they have some.

What are the 10 Shaolin sets?

[PangQuan]

1.xiao hong quan
2.da hong quan
3.tong bei quan
4.liu he
5.tai tzu
6.(cant remember name)
7.seven star (mantis)
8.plum blossom
9.gun (or cannon) boxing
10.arhat (five animals) boxing

sorry i cant remember the name of the 6th set. something about protecting your vitals.

i know tong bei is a style within its self, i am looking for the set that is used for this particualr 10 set system. doubt ill find it tho :(

[rickyscaggs]

No, seriously. Go to yahoo video search and type in tong bei quan. There's a video of a kid doing it from a monk's school. I've also seen a video of Shi De Yang doing it on yahoo or google video search.

[Jingwu Man]

The name of the form you're missing is Changhu xinyimen.
The Seven stars form as it appears in these ten forms is not a mantis form, it is a quite unique form with some strange hand positions.
Tongbiquan is one of the funnest forms in these sets. It ends with a big triple jump kick combo. So cool.
Enjoy.

[PangQuan]

ok, will do. thanks for the heads up.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Tong Bei is not the same as the
Various Tong bei styles (Bai Yuan, etc) you will see on the internet.

Shaolin Tong Bei is named after someone (Han Tong, who was killed by Emperor Tai Zu, when he first took ever the throne, even though they were friends),

the Da and Xiao Shaolin Tong Bei forms are not exhibited the "fan through the back"
mechanics seen in the other Tong Bei Styles, although there is some element of it.

This Shaolin Tong Bei is derived from Xiao and Da Hong Quan mostly, maybe some Pao Quan too.

[PangQuan]

Thank you Sal.

do you know of any resources that document, or gallerize any of the Shaolin Tong Bei?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, these forms are well documented both on paper and on video.

You can get videos of the forms from the Shaolin section of www.WLE.com http://www.wle.com//products/vsbx02.html

and you can get VCDs of the forms from

http://www.plumpub.com/

or from

www.cmaod.com


What Shaolin teaches is often called Tong Bi to differentiate it from Tong Bei style

[beiquan]

non-Shaolin tongbei is also sometimes called tongbi, the words for back (bei) and arm (bi/bei) are cognate in chinese

[PangQuan]

jingwu man, and Sal

thank you for the wonderful clarification on these sets.


this information will help my personal studies greatly.

thanks again!

:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

The most traditional vcd shaolin series is the one
called "Genuine Shaolin", which is from the late Shi De Gen's line.

You can find the forms that you do there done without the
modern wushu influence that is seen today in most shaolin.

go to the Shaolin section at www.cmaod.com or www.plumbpub.com
and look for the "genuine shaolin" series.

[Anisole]

Will be starting tong bei set soon, 3rd form after xiao hong, and da hong, in 10 shaolin set system.

always like to do my research before i begin something new, if anyone has access to any clips of tong bei (hopefully similar set from the 10 shaolin system, or even from any other tong bei practitioners) so i can get a taste for what i can look forward to.

thanks to you. :D

hello,

this is my friend's site it has links to wuxing tongbei clips of sparring, interesting.

www.chli371.com
this is not shaolin tong bei but bai yuan.

[gwa sow]

if i was looking at the right ones, its the first time i've seen any shaolin stuff with applications. not all had them but a few did. Sal have seen any of these????

[Sal Canzonieri]

if i was looking at the right ones, its the first time i've seen any shaolin stuff with applications. not all had them but a few did. Sal have seen any of these????


What "these" are you referering to?

the vcds or the clips from that site?

[gwa sow]

whoops sorry. the vcd's

[pazmoot]

I recently learnt the Shaolin Tong Bei form, it's a fairly short form with only 40 - 50 moves.

it's the third form in the temple system. the first two are: wu bo chuan and lien huan chuan.

[Banjos_dad]

i got the dvd of Shi Deyang's da tong bei and i like it a lot. It starts with a scene of over a hundred people in monk robes doing the form together one part at a time on the temple grounds. from the, something like "original boxing tree of traditional shaolin kungfu" series Guangzou Beauty Culture Communications company.
not to be spammy but i am a fan of Shi Deyang's kung fu.

[Guocheng Li]

On Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei Martial Art
Authors: GuoCheng Li and Wesley W. Wang, Ph.D.
Research Institute of Five-Element Tong-Bei Martial Art
Yantai, Shandong, China

1. History of Tong-Bei Martial Art
In the years of Daoguang administration of Qing dynasty in China, Master Xing Qi (祁信) came to a town named Gongchun in the Gu-An County of Hebei province. He left the Ji County of Hebei where he was in troubles. He took residence in a shop owned by Jia. One day, Jia was involved in an armed-fight with others to own a ferry station by the Liuli River. Qi picked up a long pole to help Jia, winning a complete victory. From then on, Qi’s reputation grew rapidly. He got a nickname of “Pole Master Qi”. There, he took disciples and founded a new martial art style that was called Qi’s Tong-Bei (note that Qi was his family name, not the concept “Qi (气)” often referred by Chinese martial art works).

After Xing Qi passed away, his son, Taichang Qi (祁太昌), inherited all his father’s martial arts. Moreover, Taichang studied other styles of martial arts and eventually formed his own style. Different from his father’s style, which featured solid moves with great body openings and closings, his style exhibited more flexible and efficient moves. Since then, Taichang’s style was called Young Qi’s Tong-Bei to differentiate from the Old Qi’s Tong-Bei as developed by his father. Both styles have been continued to develop, one generation after another. A flow chart with respect to time illustrates the development of the two styles.

Xin Qi （Old Qi’s Style）-->Taichang Qi （Young Qi’s Style）-->Tianhe Xu （Young Qi’s Style）--> Jianchi Xiu （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）-->Yaoting Wang （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）-->Guocheng Li （Young Qi’s Five-Element Tong-Bei）

Qi Xin （Old Qi’s Style）-->Qin Chen（Old Qi’s Style）-->Zhanchun Wang（Old Qi’s Style）

It is known that milestones in the history of Chinese martial arts development are usually represented by martial art practitioners. To review Tong-Bei’s evolution, it would be more appropriated to introduce those prominent Tong-Bei martial artists who made important contributions to the development of Tong-Bei martial art in history.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Great to see that bit of history, but that style has nothing to do with Shaolin Tong Bei fists, they are completely different and unrelated.

The shaolin tong bei forms are just variations of their hong quan sets, with some extra moves added.

[Shaolinlueb]

I know 2 tong bie forms. the one from shaolin my sifu learnt from shi yan ming. and the wushu version i learned from former zheijang team member kong ling dong (tong bie champion). both vastly different.

[PangQuan]

Great to see that bit of history, but that style has nothing to do with Shaolin Tong Bei fists, they are completely different and unrelated.

The shaolin tong bei forms are just variations of their hong quan sets, with some extra moves added.

i notice this happens a lot.

i wish there was an easy way to differentiate the tong bei sets.

i however will not be learning this set any time soon. I decided to stop at dahongquan and just work xiao hong quan and da hong quan until i know it inside and out, in the dark, on greese, in a hailstorm, with an itch in the middle of my back i just cant reach.

[Royal Dragon]

Add The Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form in there too, it's part of that same system.

[PangQuan]

Add The Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form in there too, it's part of that same system.

now that you mention it...ive noticed that also.

[Royal Dragon]

According to Sal, it goes lke this

Rou Quan ---> Tai Tzu Chang Chuan ---> Xiao Hong, Lao Hong and Da Dong

These are all the same system.

I suspect though, if we had access to the full Tai tzu Chang Chuan form, instead of just the first section, you would not need to practice any of the others.

[PangQuan]

According to Sal, it goes lke this

Rou Quan ---> Tai Tzu Chang Chuan ---> Xiao Hong, Lao Hong and Da Dong

These are all the same system.

I suspect though, if we had access to the full Tai tzu Chang Chuan form, instead of just the first section, you would not need to practice any of the others.

really?

thats something i did not know.

so in those 10 famous shaolin sets the xiaohong, dahong and changchuan forms are all the same style? my memory is fuzzy, those 3 are the only listed from your list that are in those 10 sets commonly grouped together? or is Rou Quan and Lao Hong also part of that 10 set package deal? i have to admit im a tad confused but i would like to get it straight. If this is the case i need to learn the Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Lao Hong. in addition. are these 3-5 (depending on your answer to which are part of that 10 set packate) sets that are the same style the only ones from these 10 sets that are the same style?

or are all 10 sets just one style?

i have to say i enjoy the xiaohongquan and dahongquan so much, more so than any other set i have ever learned. I would really like to know more about the connection with this style to other sets.


that listing you have there, is that chronological?

[Royal Dragon]

The list is cronological so far as historical evolution goes, and all the same system. If the Hong Quan sets are what you like, then you like the style of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and need to learn all the forms I listed.

I think the 10 core sets are a buffet sampler of what Shaolin has as far as styles go. You pick what you like, and then learn that system.

Remember, Shaolin is not a style, it's like a martial university that offeres courses in many styles. You could look at the 10 core sets as an intro course to thier most popular styles. Once you find one you like, then you go and learn the whole system and forget the rest.

[Royal Dragon]

so in those 10 famous shaolin sets the xiaohong, dahong and changchuan forms are all the same style?

Reply]
Yes, they are the style known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

my memory is fuzzy, those 3 are the only listed from your list that are in those 10 sets commonly grouped together? or is Rou Quan and Lao Hong also part of that 10 set package deal?

Reply]
If I understand you right, The 3 forms in the 10 famous sets from that system all go together as part of the same system, BUT not all of the forms from that system are in the 10 standard sets. Also, I don't think the 10 standard ses teach the full Da Hong. I may be wrong, but it's my understanding only the first section is taught. You only get the whole form if you specialise in that system.


I have to admit im a tad confused but i would like to get it straight. If this is the case i need to learn the Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Lao Hong. in addition. are these 3-5 (depending on your answer to which are part of that 10 set packate) sets that are the same style the only ones from these 10 sets that are the same style?

Reply]
ONLY Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Chuan and Tai Tzu Chang Chuan are the same style. The rest of the 10 sets are other popular Shaolin styles.

Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and the 3 Hong forms are the curriculem for the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan style. If you specialise in Tai Tzu, you would want to learn these 5 sets in full.

As I understand it, the 10 basic sets are not complete either. Most of the forms have several sections, and only the first sections are taught because the 10 famous forms are just a Sampler of Shaolin's most popular styles. You have to pick one and specialise in it to get the full forms.

Cannon Fist for example, like Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, is an entire style unto itself, and only the first section of the first form is taught in the 10 famous Shaolin forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ahm, uh, let me give you the clear info:

There are various systems of sets within Shaolin's history.

The Luohan Quan Gate is also called the Hong Quan Gate and is also called the Pao Chui gate, depending on when in history they are mentioned.

The most ancient Shaolin sets from Tang Dynasty or so are the:
- Xin Yi Ba - 144 exercise routines (not sets, but different rows of movements, like drills)

- Rou Gong and Luohan Qi Gong sets

- Rou Quan sets merge Tong Bei (originally Taoist style) movements with Rou Gong and Luohan Gong and make a self defense style for OLD monks to practice. There is a 18 move set, a 36 move set, and a 108 move set. The 72 move set is not made public.

There is a modern (Qing Dynasty) version of the Rou Quan, which mixes it with Luohan Quan that is now taught as a form by today's Shaolin monks. It is barely at all like the original Rou Quan and should not be confused with it.
It is VERY hard to find someone to teach you the old Rou Quan forms, they are very protected. These sets possess what REAL Shaolin is, not modern wushu athletics it has turned into. Only old monks know it.

By the Song dynasty, the Rou Quan was used as a base to create Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan, merging it with movements that Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin send his generals to Shaolin to teach them about and perserve.

Later, not known when, Ming Dynasty or before, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan sets were developed. Later the Da Hong Quan was developed. Around this time the Pao Chui sets were also developed and are clearly part of this system.

(All other sets from Shaolin are from the Qing Dynasty and are considered Modern sets, even if they use the Hong Quan movements, which most do, such as their Tong Bei sets)

The first section of all Rou Quan sets, Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (set 1 of 3), Xiao and Lao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, are ALL identical. That's how you can recognize a set from this system, the first section is always the same if it is related.
Also, the first section of famous Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia form (and from that Yang and Wu tai ji) are identical to the first section of these Shaolin sets.

SO, they all are part of one system.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I suspect though, if we had access to the full Tai tzu Chang Chuan form, instead of just the first section, you would not need to practice any of the others.

You mean the 2nd and 3rd sets of Shaolin Chang Quan?

I doubt that is true at all.
Judging from the names of the movements in those two forms, they are additional material, not substitute material for anything that is in these Hong Quan or other related sets.
In fact, all these sets are variations of material found in the complete set of Rou Quan forms.

And, I also think that the supposed existence of the 16 section of tai tzu is made up by the people who made the vcds of the 1st and 2nd section. There is no 16 section set from the Song Dynasty era.

[LFJ]

The first section of all Rou Quan sets, Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (set 1 of 3), Xiao and Lao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, are ALL identical.

Also, the first section of famous Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia form (and from that Yang and Wu tai ji) are identical to the first section of these Shaolin sets.

identical? in what way?

[Sal Canzonieri]

identical? in what way?

They all have the same sequence of movements / postures, with slight stylistic differences.

All the same movements functionally, applicationally, visually, etc. from their opening movements to about White Crane Spreads Its Wings.

After that move most of these forms do something like or exactly like Brush Knee Twist Step as well at that point.

You can see the evolution in time periods from Rou Quan to Tai Tzu to Hong Quan to Pao Chui to Chen Tai Ji, as the movements slightly change based on new ideas.

What makes it beyond coincidence is the movements/postures are in the SAME sequence.
Also, most of the movements have the same names.

AND, the original Rou Quan movements can be done with a staff, like all ancient Shaolin forms can be done, and also with double swords or knives, and not only that but all the Rou Quan movements are the same as classic Tong Bei sequence of movements. Tong Bei is an internal style, thousands of years old, that the military practiced, and it has its own nei gong exercises.

[PangQuan]

wow. thanks for the info guys.

so let me try and line this up.

Rou Quan - good luck on me finding this, right? So I shouldnt really bother.

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan - need to learn

Lau Hong - need to learn. (how similar is this to xiaohong and dahong? also, how common of a set is this to be found)

xiao hong - the set i know is very similar to most sets i have seen. I havent seen any sections in other sets that are not found in mine, though some sections may be performed a bit differently, roughly its all the same. though i have seen many people do this form and have missing parts that are found in mine.

da hong - personal history: When i first learned this set, i learned it one on one from my old sifu. After i had known this set for about 8 months, he decided to teach it to the rest of the students at the school. HOWEVER, he taught them a different version. While similar to the version i was taught, certain parts were missing and replaced with other parts. when the most senior student asked him about this he said i only learned part of the form. SO it would seem he taught the rest of the students (including myself) different part of the set. Since i have left the school i have worked for some time to combine the two versions i know. I feel that i have done a pretty good job doing this but would desperately like to compare this with someone familiar with the entire version.

now here is my delima. My old Sifu teaches all of those 10 sets from shaolin. Yet to train at his school you have to also train the rest of his material, which is half modern wushu. I dont want to learn modern wushu anymore.

So for me to find someone to teach me the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Lao Hong (Lao Hong not contained in those 10 sets if memory serves me) and not try to teach me everything else, should be rather tough.

So for now i suppose ill just continue to study the xiao hong and da hong and hope in the future i can find someone to teach me Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and Lao Hong.

I wouldnt mind learning some other Styles from shaolin, but i would not want to learn too much at once aside from this style. in addition im not really interested in learning any modern wushu.

so the question is, who can teach me the rest of this style :confused:

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html

The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form is SL270

This is as close as you are going to get from a comercial vid.

Sal Canzonieri knows the Tai Tzu form though.

[Royal Dragon]

These are modern Whusu versions, but you get the basic shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1lebnmM1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY&mode=related&search=

[LFJ]

They all have the same sequence of movements / postures, with slight stylistic differences.

All the same movements functionally, applicationally, visually, etc. from their opening movements to about White Crane Spreads Its Wings.

After that move most of these forms do something like or exactly like Brush Knee Twist Step as well at that point.

i dont see that at all.

i've studied both songshan shaolin and chen style taijiquan. so i'm familiar with those opening sequences to the forms. they are completely different. like the opening sequence to xiaohongquan and chen style laojia are nothing alike. xiaohong and laohong even.

so i have no idea what you are talking about.

[Royal Dragon]

You mean the 2nd and 3rd sets of Shaolin Chang Quan?

Reply]
Yes.

I doubt that is true at all.
Judging from the names of the movements in those two forms, they are additional material, not substitute material for anything that is in these Hong Quan or other related sets.

Reply]
I was hoping that the techniques in the 2nd and 3rd sets were found in the Hong Quan sets.


In fact, all these sets are variations of material found in the complete set of Rou Quan forms.

Reply]
Does ths mean that the techniques in the 2nd and 3rd sections of Tai tzu are also found in the Rou Quan/ Rou Gong sets?

[PangQuan]

http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html

The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form is SL270

This is as close as you are going to get from a comercial vid.

Sal Canzonieri knows the Tai Tzu form though.

so this would be a good resource once i find someone to teach me the form im assuming.

what about the Lao Hong? how commonly known is that?

[PangQuan]

i also purchased the Shi Diyang XiaoHong and DaHong video series to compare what i know.

[Royal Dragon]

You could rough out the form from the VCD now, since you have experiance in the Xiao and Da Hong forms. Then find a teacher to refine you later.

[PangQuan]

sounds good to me lol

is that sight you posted pretty secure to use my debit card on?

edit: also it says all vids are in mandarin, and boy does my potunghua suck!

since the sight im on is in english, could i assume english subtitles?

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, I have bought a lot from them over the years.

[PangQuan]

hey sorry to bug you so much RD :o

is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

SLD019 is the reference number


edit: dang im needy.

also is that 'old frame hong quan' any siginificance here?

[PangQuan]

Thank you SOOOO much for your time spent helping me on this.


it really means a lot

[Sal Canzonieri]

i dont see that at all.

i've studied both songshan shaolin and chen style taijiquan. so i'm familiar with those opening sequences to the forms. they are completely different. like the opening sequence to xiaohongquan and chen style laojia are nothing alike. xiaohong and laohong even.

so i have no idea what you are talking about.

If I could show it to you somehow I would.

When I make some video comparisons on my website I will let you know.

The older the people doing the Chen taiji, the closer it looks to Shaolin. Today's modern Chen stylists are streamlining it much further away.

I already proved that the Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu form matches in a one to one correspondence to the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan form a few months back in KungFu Magazine (of this website). I made a table in the article that gives the correspondances.

The Chen lao Jia yi lu form follows the same sequence of movements and takes them from three Shaolin forms: Rou Quan 108, Xiao Hong Quan, and Tai Tzu Chang Quan Yi Lu.

After the opening "salute" to the Chen form (lao Jia yi lu, for example), when the arms wave to the right, then wards to the left and "Holds the ball", and then "holds the ball" to the right, and then it does the "Jingang Pounds the Mortar" move, then it does the "Lazily Tying Coat / 6 Sealings & 4 Closings", then "Single whip, and then "White Crane Spreads Wings" going into the Brush Knee stuff.

All of this is functionally the same as the movements in those 3 Shaolin forms as well.

see this video of these 80 year olds doing the Chen tai ji forms, people don't do the forms like this anymore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uu7ghVNt4M

Unfortunately this video has the very first opening sequence missing, so look at it from
3:36 to 4:04, which is another old guy doing the Chen Er Lu, the Pao Chui, (same opening sequence as Chen Yi Lu).
A third old guy doing Yi Lu at 5:59.

Earlier back in the video, from 0:9 seconds to 0: 15 seconds in that video, the old man is doing Chen Yi Lu and in the Rou Quan forms that is the exact same moves (going back to Tang dynasty or earlier, mind you) called "Old Man Splits Wood" and "Lazily Tying on Coat".

At the same point in time in the Tai Tzu form these exact movements are made.

In the Xiao Hong Quan form these movements are essentially the same, if you slow it all down to tai ji speed, you will see that you are doing the same things,
wave to the right, wave to the left, push hand/hold ball to the left, close up/hold ball to the right, ward left, then "lazily tying coat" to the right.

The key to it all it the Rou Quan, if you learn those forms (18, 36, 72, and 108 move sets) you will see that you are essentially doing the same things in the first row as you are doing in Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Xiao and Lao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.

Of course they are not carbon copy exactly the same move, but you can see how they are evolving / changing in time from Rou Quan eventually to Chen Tai Ji.

I would dare to say that all the movements/postures found in the various complete sets of the Rou Quan (the 18, 36, 72, and 108 posture sets) contain ALL the movements later found in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Form, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan forms, Shaolin Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.
There is not one new move seen in these forms that is not found already in Rou Quan.

The ONLY exception is the Shaolin Pao Chui have some extra stuff in them that is also found in the Chang Nei Jia Quan style.

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey sorry to bug you so much RD :o

is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

SLD019 is the reference number


edit: dang im needy.

also is that 'old frame hong quan' any significance here?

SLD019 is the Tai Tzu set (I hate how he does it)
SLD020 is the Lao (old) Hong Quan set (he does it pretty good), this is the form to do AFTER you learn Xiao Hong Quan, before Da Hong Quan.

A much better version of the Tai Tzu set is here on VCD:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9Two.html
See SL270

Supposedly the most complete and authentic version of the Da Hong Quan forms are here:
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html
See Item Code: SL139, SL140, and SL141

Also, this is THE ONLY place where you will find the 36 posture Rou Quan form made available to the public:
See Item Code: SL114

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here is the newer (Qing Dynasty) version of the Rou Quan 36 posture form,
but you can still see from
the first 38 seconds of the form that it shares the same first section as what I mentioned previously.

If you can't see it, then you need someone to show it to you in person, sorry.
For those that can see and understand, behold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes


Rou Quan is the link between ancient Tong Bei and Shaolin Tai Tzu/Hong Quan and Chen Tai Ji.

[Royal Dragon]

I would dare to say that all the movements/postures found in the various complete sets of the Rou Quan (the 18, 36, 72, and 108 posture sets) contain ALL the movements later found in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Form, the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan forms, Shaolin Pao Chui, and Chen Tai Ji.
There is not one new move seen in these forms that is not found already in Rou Quan.

Reply]
This is why I was saying that the Rou Quan & Gong may have all the moves in the 2nd and 3rd sections of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan set as well. Maybe different names, but I bet they are there.

Is Rou Quan & Rou Gong the original Louhan style? It seems to match the description I have allways heard is Louhan, especially haveing 18, 36, 72 and 108 move forms. I allways heard there was a 54 move form too that seems to be missing though.

[Royal Dragon]

hey sorry to bug you so much RD

is this the same set? http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

SLD019 is the reference number

Reply]
Yes, it's the same set, but more jazzed up for show than the one I linked you to before.

[Royal Dragon]

Sal,
Is this ---> Shaolin Old Frame Hong Quan Item Code: SLD020 http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

the same set as this? ----> Item Code: SL255 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html


Also, what is this one?-----> Item Code: HF003 http://www.cmaod.com/HongFistVCD.html

[PangQuan]

Much thanks for the wonderful clarification here guys!

helps me out a lot.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,
Is this ---> Shaolin Old Frame Hong Quan Item Code: SLD020 http://www.cmaod.com/ShaolinDVD4.html

the same set as this? ----> Item Code: SL255 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html


Also, what is this one?-----> Item Code: HF003 http://www.cmaod.com/HongFistVCD.html

SLD020 is the Lao Hong Quan that is also called Lao (old) Da Hong Quan.
This set clearly is the next set after the traditional Xiao Hong Quan.

SL255 is yet another Lao Hong Quan, and it might be the Middle Hong Quan.
It is very different from SLD020, very short, and according to this well respected teacher (who has same teacher's as Shi Degian) it is one of the ancient Shaolin Hong Quan sets.

The HF003 set is from an entirely different style of long fist, from Shanxi province, it is not like anything else I have seen coming from Shaolin. It is the real "Red" fist style, as the Shaolin Hong Quan, the character for Hong means "Flowing" or "Flood" not Red as most people mistakenly translate it (the commies started that error in motion).

[LFJ]

whoa, what about the 1-7 luohan forms there? :rolleyes:

[Sal Canzonieri]

whoa, what about the 1-7 luohan forms there? :rolleyes:

No, that's legit, they are from the late Ming / early Qing dynasty Luohan Quan sets.

I have this whole set, it's all the Luohan that I have ever seen still being done at Shaolin.

This teacher is very respected and his linage is too by everyone that knows about Shaolin lineages.

[Sal Canzonieri]

[This is why I was saying that the Rou Quan & Gong may have all the moves in the 2nd and 3rd sections of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan set as well. Maybe different names, but I bet they are there.

Is Rou Quan & Rou Gong the original Louhan style? It seems to match the description I have allways heard is Louhan, especially haveing 18, 36, 72 and 108 move forms. I allways heard there was a 54 move form too that seems to be missing though.

I've been working on that for a year now, eventually I will crack it (re: finding the ER Lu and San Lu Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan forms).

There are various Luohans, when you speak of Shaolin, depending on the time period. It's easy to get confused.

The Xiao, Da, and so on Luohan that most are familiar with is one separate system. The Da is 108 movements, the Xiao is 54.
There is the Er Lu Luohan form as well. Plus a bunch more.

There is the 18 Luohan hands set of 144 moves too.

All those are a separate system from different time periods than what we have been talking about in this and other threads when mentioning Rou Quan.

Rou Quan comes from Rou Qong internal exercises, and these come from mixture of nei gong sets, ONE of which is the Luohan 13 move qi gong (notice it is not 18, they don't mean the 18 different luohan people, they mean simply 13 movements that are Luohan internal exercises.)
These 13 Luohan qi gong movements, since they are what ancient Rou Quan (sui to tang dynasty?) uses as a base, are very ancient to Shaolin.

They should not be mixed up with any other kind of Luohan.

The small Rou Quan set is about 20 something moves, and there are 18 different moves in them (not counting repeats), they are martial movements made from the 13 Luohan qi gong movements, plus a few others that make 18 different postures.

I know it is very confusing, but if you work by time period, as I do in research and practice of forms, then it stays separated and is not so confusing.
I separate all my material by sets created from the Yuan Dynasty to the end of the Qing Dynasty
and anything created During the Song Dynasty and before.

[Jingwu Man]

what about Dahong 4 and 6?

[Sal Canzonieri]

what about Dahong 4 and 6?

Yeah, the Hong Quan system had a lot of forms, some are from the original Hong Quan sets that are from Rou Quan (Xiao and Lao Hong Quan) and some are from another time period, around the late 1200s/early 1300s.

These later sets of Hong Quan are set to have been added to Shaolin archives by Li Sou, who went to Shaolin along with Bai Yu Feng, at the request of Jue Yuan.

The Da Hong Quan sets are most likely from this later Hong Quan.

Also, I possess a drawings book from Shi Dejian of yet another series of Shaolin Hong Quan sets (1-5) that are very different from the Xiao Hong Quan looking stuff and the Da Hong Quan looking stuff!
Talk about hair pulling!

(To make things even more confusing:
Also there are OTHER unrelated styles that have Hong Quan systems out there,
Cha Quan has a series of Hong Quan sets, about 4 or so;
Shanxi province has their own Hong Quan system (red Fist);
then there is the Tai Tzu Hong Quan system that was created by Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin's soldiers, when they returned home from their commission, it is based on Tai Tzu from the Emperor and whatever martial arts the soldiers already knew, which depends on the garrison they were in. Most of them knew Cha Quan or some kind of related Moslem martial art, his inner guard, were from Sichuan and they did some kind of Emei related martial art called Nei Jia Quan, which is where all the INTERNAL talk first started coming out, his it was his inner guard and they did Internal Family Fist.
Weird but true.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

oh, I forgot to mention that one of the Nei Gong the ROu Quan is based on is the Luohan 13 Gong.

And what other style is most famous for its 13 postures?