the boxers weave

[Shiva]

hi-

i've been sparring with a boxer recently (san shou style) and I have a hard time using my kungfu against the boxer because he is very good at bobbing and weaving. my techniques feel too slow (i practice hung gar) is there a way to exploit this using my legs or something?

[viper]

Does he enjoy the clinch knees r sweet plus maybe u could set him up msake him bob then kick in the head i dont know just making sugestions. Good ur goin with other systems though really makes u grow hey

[Pork Chop]

attack high and follow up with a knee or a round kick; good chance you can catch him ducking into it.

If he's smart he'll be weaving back instead of forward, in which case his legs are planted (and open to attacks), his body should be somewhat vulnerable too.

[PlumDragon]

I cant say Ive had trouble with this in the past, but if I were faced with what you are, my first inclination would be to track.

As he bobs and weaves you track him with your strike. Locate his center, lock on to it and attack it, like a cruise missile out-maneuvering an aircraft on a turn, cutting off the arc. Agressive, forward moving, never stopping, always evolving instantaneously to form a new attack on the fly.
If his face is still too fast for you to hit, remove a dimension: Go from attacking the centerline to attacking a center point, the point where the movement of his head originates from; neck, throat, shoulders, chest, sternum...All areas which he cant move as fast as his head.

Im sure there are lots of other things you can do...This is just what I would probably attempt to do.

[hasayfu]

too many variables to give real advice but I would suggest NOT doing the track thing or a fake to force him to weave. Don't get me wrong, it can work if you can fool him or get him to go where you want him to but the reverse is also true. If he knows you are faking or tracking, he can take advantage of that because you are essentially doing a wasted/predictable movement.

My advice is stop head hunting. You are Hung Gar. Bridge the gap. Attack the body (which includes everything NOT the head). Weaving is pretty useless when you are touching him at elbows length or less.

[PangQuan]

just curious, are you striking only? or can you get in there and grab, ive always noticed tiger claw likes to do that.

use your strengths, exploit his weaknesses. if your soley a hung gar guy, stick to your style.

[Shiva]

attack high and follow up with a knee or a round kick; good chance you can catch him ducking into it.

If he's smart he'll be weaving back instead of forward, in which case his legs are planted (and open to attacks), his body should be somewhat vulnerable too.


good advice. i though maybe i should attack the body. he always seems to keep his head just out of reach. maybe i'll kick out his legs or follow my head shots witha sweep or thrust kick.

[TenTigers]

Shiva, practice "figure eights" which are gwa/cup,gwa/cup continuously across the floor, until it becomes natural. The strikes come in at angles and change sides like a barrage. You can open up with a frint kick and chain punches and then gio into the figure eights as a finishing combo. I have done this so many times, it is actually funny. Especially when they cover, because these strikes blow right through them. The secret is in yur Bik Ma-crowding horse. You need to close and be knee to knee. "Trust the process!"

[PlumDragon]

too many variables to give real adviceAgreed 100%.


but I would suggest NOT doing the track thing or a fake to force him to weave. Don't get me wrong, it can work if you can fool him or get him to go where you want him to but the reverse is also true. If he knows you are faking or tracking, he can take advantage of that because you are essentially doing a wasted/predictable movement.

My advice is stop head hunting. You are Hung Gar. Bridge the gap. Attack the body (which includes everything NOT the head). Weaving is pretty useless when you are touching him at elbows length or less.Tracking is not a fake, and its not a wasted motion; its being able to adjust on the fly without playing the game of taking turns, and if practiced is a very useful skill.

Agreed however that bridging is an important step here. But its all the more easy to sense and track an opponent with a bridge already made...

[Golden Arms]

Ten Tigers: can you restate with english equiv of the cantonese? I dont think any of the non Hung people, or even some Hung lineages use cup chooi as a descriptive term, gwa is more common though I think. Thx, as you gave some good advice.

[neilhytholt]

Actually, what I found is that boxers are very predictible. They'll come in with some flurries, and then go out, come in and go out a little side to side.

What seemed to work very well was wait until they come in, do wave hands like clouds (or whatever) to parry their punches, and then just floor them with a straight punch to the face. I guess if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch.

[PangQuan]

lol.......

[TenTigers]

I think all Guangdong (WFH) Hung-Ga knows cup choy, as do CLF, lama, Hop-Ga,Bak Hok,but for everyone else, Cup Choy is a large almost straight armed overhead "smothering" punch, which is like dropping a bomb on someone. It strikes with anything from the fist, to the forearm, and is thrown like a steel ball on the end of a chain. When you lead with the Gwa-Choy, which drops down and smashes through the bridge, and follow up with the cup, and then again, and again (ad nauseum) it is a relentless barrage raining down from all angles.
There is no such thing as an unstoppable technique, so I will say this can be considered a "High Percentage" technique. It can be stopped by jamming, or if the person tries to throw it from too far, which is why in my first post, it must be set up and the range must be tight and you need to press the opponet's horse and structure, both physically and spiritually, if you catch my drift.

[Shiva]

Actually, what I found is that boxers are very predictible. They'll come in with some flurries, and then go out, come in and go out a little side to side.

What seemed to work very well was wait until they come in, do wave hands like clouds (or whatever) to parry their punches, and then just floor them with a straight punch to the face. I guess if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch.

that's exactly what I do but he sees it comin and weaves back. even though i can redirect his attack i can't seem to land any of the good stuff to the head/neck area. that's why i'm thinkin pork chops idea of following with a leg attack is a good one.

[neilhytholt]

that's exactly what I do but he sees it comin and weaves back. even though i can redirect his attack i can't seem to land any of the good stuff to the head/neck area. that's why i'm thinkin pork chops idea of following with a leg attack is a good one.

That sounds like a good strategy. If he already knows what you're doing then it won't work. Mix it up a bit.

[qiphlow]

kick the crap out of the legs, then watch him fall down.

[SiuHung]

Tip#1: Don't take advice on tactics from anyone who doesn't or has not fought.

As an overall strategy, TT's advice is sound because it works from linear attacks to circular, and in many way's is similar to the boxer's strategy of using jab, cross (linear), hook (circular).

If you're Hung Ga, don't play the boxer's game, i.e. don't box them. Crowding is fine, but it takes both balls and toughness. You can strike the body, head, or lower gates, whatever openings present, but always in combination...do not focus on one thing only. Use angles and footwork to nullify or at least force them to reposition and adjust.

Good Luck!

[Ao Qin]

This is a great topic for kungfu students - I have found that this has been the most difficult aspect for me to spar with - the "rythym" (can't even spell the word) ducking, weaving, bobbing, dancing, in and out, etc. - float like a butterfly, etc.

But, I have had some sucess when I don't try to play their game. Like a cobra, they are hoping you will be mesmorized and try to emulate their movements - then you're toast. Hypnosis, basically. Don't play their game.

In my style (Dragon), I simply wait for them to commit. Either stand and wait for an opportunity, or assume a posture if they are very skilled - swivel the back leg and maintain your centreline. Confuse them with small hand movements. Let them bounce around. Wait for them to come to you. Once they attack / commit (and don't confuse a true threat), then do what you were trained to do - move into them quickly and destroy as best you can - grab, tear, punch, gouge, knee, throw down, etc. Commitment being the key - go in and "kill" the guy. Like my first teacher told me, take one hit, give three back in return. So, take his jab(s), but don't mistake a jab for commitment.

I don't believe there is too much "skill" involved in (real) combat - just commitment. They guy who is enraged, has nothing to lose and everything to gain will usually win (e.g suicide bomber). I'm not talking about a true master of any art of course! Just 99% of the people who practice traditional martial arts (including myself).

ta - aq

[Yum Cha]

A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.

Tangle the feet, disrupt the rhythm, take him out of his comfort zone and into yours.

No easy solution, just another tactic to employ as you experiment. Boxers have a great game, don't disrespect it.

[Crushing Fist]

easiest answer is play range... use your legs, your kicks should be far superior and will keep him away. use the low kicks to disrupt him then go in for the kill.


like other people said here, don't play his game.

once you get inside stay there going for throws and locks, but watch out when disengaging.

basically long range and extreme close range are where you should be stronger.

if you try to box him he'll pick you apart, its his game.

[SanShou Guru]

If he is a well trained boxer he will beat you like a redheaded stepson. Let me guess he is never it the right place for you to hit him well. He is too close or too far away. When you do hit him it is hard to land with power because the shots roll off or seem to glance.

The notion that boxers by being on their toes have no root is ignorant. Good boxers weigh nothing when they move but a thousand pounds when they punch or they are a bad boxer. He will be faster than you, hit harder than you, land punches in combination, have a softer more reactive guard, be able to punch at a longer range, be able to punch while retreating, be able to attack at angles, be able to punch hard at very short range, counter punch. If he has sparred a great deal more than you have you need to learn to fight more like he does. Why? Because it works.

Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will.

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

But what do I know, I have only been in San Shou for 15 years, been to Worlds as a fighter once and coached national team fighters five times. My coach was the only martial artist to be no the US National team for San Shou and Forms and never used traditional moves are they are practiced in forms either sparring or in the ring. The principles can work. I used Hsing I basics in many of my fights with success. I have fought against traditional fighters many times on the Lei Thai and they were all easy fights. In fact I would usually just push them off so I would not risk injury for the next round and not have to hurt some guy using Bagwa circling, or Wing Chung or some other nonsense. Good fighers know how to fights. Good forms guys know good forms. Practice beats theory pretty much every time. When you have practiced enough i.e. sparred a ton (500+ rounds) then theory is reintroduced.

[YMC]

Not trying to troll or derail the thread (honestly!) but based on the the following comments


Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will. .....I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

why train in a traditional Chinese style at all with the hope of becoming a competent fighter or augmenting one's skills at all? In fact, although you point out that one can add traditional theory or styles after proficency in basic boxing techniques is gleened (which makes a lot of sense to me), the only examples you used wherein you used such things were against traditional style fighters, who wouldn't stand a chance against a good boxer anyway based on the above comments.

As someone who seems to have a great deal of practical experience and is apparently versed in both traditional and "modern" arts, what would you say you gained from the more traditional end of things?

[SanShou Guru]

Tai Chi can be a great way to soften a stiff fighter and develop a great root for punching but Wave Hand like Clouds will get Head Punched like Heavybag. Hsing I gave me a sick root that saved me many times. What drives me crazy is when people spout traditional counters against well trained fighters.

The root principles are often correct but forms were meant to practice the bare bones not as direct application. Learning the timing in a fight takes months, keeping it takes practice.

[Pork Chop]

San Shou Guru

Hey coach how's it goin? :) Was stayin in touch with Jurgen for like almost a year there, then he disappeared.

Gotta admit, my advice was a lil cookie cutter, but it was based on the old addage "don't bob n weave too much in muay thai or you'll catch a knee". My thai coaches *hated* even changing level for body shots. The stuff coach Julio (trujillo) would show us would make my thai coaches cringe. :D

One thing I noticed that works alright, particularly on boxers without a ton of experience is lifting parries- kinda like that move in hsing yi. It would work once or twice, till they figured it out, or at least saw it coming- then "ow". :p

Leg kicking the front leg as soon as a boxer puts weight on it to throw, or blasting it if he's trying to do stationary weaving has always worked for me in the past. *shrug* Then again, not sure i was one of the ones you were referring to.

[SanShou Guru]

Jugen is in town this weekend actually. I can get his new email if you need it, send me a pm if you want it and I will get it.

Yea you duck too much in Sanda and/or Muay Thai and bad things can happen. We train our people to not duck too low but more lateral slipping. Same thing goes for Shooting, drop too early, eat a knee. You want to see you Muay Thai coach cringe? Start using sidekicks. They look at it like it is a math problem and they are an art history major. Time it off their "life ending round kick" and it about as hard to land as hitting a heavy bag. Time it wrong and, well, they may end you life.

[Pork Chop]

They were okay with side kicks as long as they were the "step off at a slight angle and then side kick as he comes in".

GOD FORBID i did any kind of sliding kick (ie a normal sanshou side kick)- they'd make me do pushups while they had a coronary. Being so conscious of sliding/skipping did adversely affect my kicking, as well as my ability to judge distance. Then again, I have weird lapses- about 6 months ago I woke up and forgot how to front/push kick (footjab); still haven't really got it back. Trying to switch between boxing, sanshou, and muay thai, really gives me issues with my stance, footwork, and useable tools.

[WinterPalm]

Train the basics more...If that doesn't help, take off the gloves and go at it freestyle so that you are more in your realm. I agree that under boxing rules the boxer is going to be better prepared, that is what he does, but why play that game other than to learn a few things. I wouldn't take it to heart, work on some other techniques, Hung Gar must have more than a handful of good techniques!

[PangQuan]

a tennis player will always beat a baseball player at tennis, and vise versa.


if your constricted to a boxing format when sparring with this person, pick up a few more skills. inquire, learn, and improve your overall game.

if how ever its more of a free fighting format, do not box him.

as many others have said, use your legs.

"fight a boxer, box a fighter." probably sounds familiar.


ive noticed that when sparring my kung fu brothers if i switch over to western boxing, it really boffles them up. (especially swithcing between kung fu and boxing :D )

legs will be your best friend. until you learn to box.

[couch]

If he is a well trained boxer he will beat you like a redheaded stepson. Let me guess he is never it the right place for you to hit him well. He is too close or too far away. When you do hit him it is hard to land with power because the shots roll off or seem to glance.

The notion that boxers by being on their toes have no root is ignorant. Good boxers weigh nothing when they move but a thousand pounds when they punch or they are a bad boxer. He will be faster than you, hit harder than you, land punches in combination, have a softer more reactive guard, be able to punch at a longer range, be able to punch while retreating, be able to attack at angles, be able to punch hard at very short range, counter punch. If he has sparred a great deal more than you have you need to learn to fight more like he does. Why? Because it works.

Now if you have very good feet you can keep him at range. Kick kick and kick, low and head, kick when he punches. Kick when you think he is going to punch, kick before he punches. Problem is two fold, a good boxer will find your rhythm and timing and you will get tired way faster than he will.

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.

But what do I know, I have only been in San Shou for 15 years, been to Worlds as a fighter once and coached national team fighters five times. My coach was the only martial artist to be no the US National team for San Shou and Forms and never used traditional moves are they are practiced in forms either sparring or in the ring. The principles can work. I used Hsing I basics in many of my fights with success. I have fought against traditional fighters many times on the Lei Thai and they were all easy fights. In fact I would usually just push them off so I would not risk injury for the next round and not have to hurt some guy using Bagwa circling, or Wing Chung or some other nonsense. Good fighers know how to fights. Good forms guys know good forms. Practice beats theory pretty much every time. When you have practiced enough i.e. sparred a ton (500+ rounds) then theory is reintroduced.

Great advice.

About the question YMC asked about why learn traditional ways of fighting:
(and this is just my opinion)

The way a boxer moves, sticks, weaves, bobs and throws those arms with the shoulder protecting the chin has stood the test of time in the ring. (This has evolved over time, improving everything to work within the construct of the ring with the proper gear...)

I don't think the problem lies with learning the "Traditional" way of fighting, I think it has to do with the "Traditional" way of thinking.

Just cuz you spent all this time learning some special footwork and way of doing things, doesn't mean that it's useless, but don't be afraid to free your own mind and do things your own way. The problem, I feel, is that the martial arts of old were good against martial arts of old, but they have failed to evolve with time (and the way people are fighting TODAY).

This is because we all feel like the Old Master created something that nobody can improve on.

I also think that getting dumped in using your MA with someone/some delivery system that your MA wasn't designed to deal with (or perhaps that you're not used to) doesn't work all that well. It's true that with time that things might get better...but you need to slow things down and find out how to defend against these different attacks.

Then you can go full speed again.

Best in luck. I have been studying MA for over 12 years, with 3 years in Wing Chun Kung-Fu. I decided to mix it up with a couple of MMA friends (one who has quite a lot of BJJ experience). I got my a55 handed to me.

No stress...I then decided to train just as hard as they do and stop pretending that not hitting my opponent/getting hit was always benificial, etc. Don't be afraid to expand your ideas, add a jab into what you already know, skip rope and do burpies!!!

Best,
Kenton

[neilhytholt]

IMHO wave hands like clouds (or whatever it's called with inward, not outward parries) was designed to fight punchers. At full speed and full force, it's very effective, but it must be executed close to the fighter. I used it a lot.

The reason TMA doesn't do well against ring sports is because most TMA people don't train like the ring sports do, with muscle and they don't train against real punching, etc., which is why it fails.

When I first fought boxers I got my ass handed to me until I figured out that I need to move faster and hit harder. Once that happened I was breaking noses accidentally until I figured out how to hook better.

The first time I fought a boxer he hit me hard like 5 times bang, bang, bang, and I was just shocked because I wasn't used to getting punched.

[Pork Chop]

IMHO wave hands like clouds (or whatever it's called with inward, not outward parries) was designed to fight punchers.

I think it works *much* better against kicks; it's how i do my scooping kick catches.

[Shiva]

i tried using more kicks and leg attacks tonight and it worked real well. he couldn't get close enough to me to launch his boxing stuff. now i just need to work it in with the upperbody combos.

[Yum Cha]

Good on you Shiva.

Resist the temptation to throw your art over for a quick fix and you'll learn to make it work for you. It isn't easy, it isn't quick and it takes practice.

I'll bet your buddy is logging onto his boxing forum right now, asking what to do to deal with leg kicks.... :D

Make them play your game, whatever it is. If they don't understand it, all the better.

Enjoy.

[phoenixdog]

Two suggestions against the western boxer that is adept at weaving,slipping,ducking,bobing....
a.don't telegraph.practice in front of a mirror.If his weaving is working well against you,he's got your timing down.
b.attack the body until he stops weaving and then follow up to the head.

[TenTigers]

didn't you say you were from Hung-Ga? Well then use your Hung-Ga! Crowd him, take away his range, eat up his space, be on him like white on rice.
our motto is,
"When your opponent moves in-you move in.
When your opponent moves out-You move in.
When your opponent stands still-you move in."
-it's a no-brainer;)
Remember, train your Gung-Fu for fighting, not for sport. Don't play with him, finish him. Don't dance around the ring, take him. Don't go for rounds, go for the kill.
Attack first-hit first, hit fast, hit hard, and be relentless. Don't stop until he's finished.

[BruceSteveRoy]

gwa cup against boxers is fun. especially if they have no idea what it is. i have a friend that is an ameteur boxer and he and i were just fooling around last week. he stepped in and i threw the gwa which he was transfixed by just long enough for the cup choy to do its job. he said he couldn't even see it. but i think if the timing had been wrong or the distance was wrong i would have just been open for him to hit vigorously and repeatedly. if you miss with it it is very important to recover quickly (obviously) otherwise the only blocking surface you will have at your disposal is your face and thats just not good for business.

[TenTigers]

this is a valid point. That is why we practice continuous strikes, one flowing into the next. My Hung-Ga has been over the past few generations, highly influenced by CLF, which is known for throwing continuous strikes such as gwa/cup. One of the most startling differences between Hung-Ga and CLF is the way they seem to practice. Hung-Ga seems to enjoy the one shot deal. This all or nothing mentality is what will cause you to be open if you miss with the gwa/cups, and the continuous flow of CLF is what will enable you to recover. The two styles mix quite well, as can be seen in Buck Sum Kong's Fu-Hok P'ai schools where both Hung-Ga and CLF are taught, and some lineages of Hung-Ga that have elements of both, as well as Jow-Ga,Lama,and Hop-Ga.
In this way, the technique is the same, buy yo can change your mindset.

[Mr Punch]

Actually, what I found is that boxers are very predictible. They'll come in with some flurries, and then go out, come in and go out a little side to side.

What seemed to work very well was wait until they come in, do wave hands like clouds (or whatever) to parry their punches, and then just floor them with a straight punch to the face. I guess if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch.Dayum, it's only May, and we already have the Mostest Stupid Post of the Year! :D

Pssst, Neil, those weren't boxers: stop beating retards! It's not nice!

... but wait, another candidate!


...But, I have had some sucess when I don't try to play their game. Like a cobra, they are hoping you will be mesmorized and try to emulate their movements - then you're toast. Hypnosis, basically. Don't play their game...Like a cobra they are punching your soon-to-be foetal form repeatedly round the head and ribs. Boxers don't try and hypnotise you. That's hynotists.


Either stand and wait for an opportunity, or assume a posture if they are very skilled - swivel the back leg and maintain your centreline. Confuse them with small hand movements...This is so hilarious I can't even attempt a parody.

But wait, Yum Cha, I'm surprised at you and your late entry into the competition:
A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.See San Shou Guru for the correct answer.


once you get inside stay there going for throws and locks, but watch out when disengaging...
basically long range and extreme close range are where you should be stronger.You won't get a lock on a boxer. Throws are hard too, because it's hard to get any kind of arm wrap on a boxer or to secure his head. Sweeps and reaps work better, but that trained boxers can work you over very badly at extreme close range.


Make them play your game, whatever it is. If they don't understand it, all the better.This is very true. I play chess, and I can always get them because they're punchy AND they can't pick up the pieces with their gloves on. :D



Again: see San Shou Guru for the correct answer.

[Yum Cha]

Woah! I got a double mention, that's so special....

Anyway, how about a reality check? I made the assumption the poster, the one asking for advice, was at the novice end, sparring a boxer of similar qualifications.

Some of you guys reckon he's fighting a reinvigorated fusion of Tyson and Ali.

And the best advice offered was, "forget your kung fu and become a boxer?"

Hey, big news flash, its not all about you.

[SanShou Guru]

It is not about me but my advice is based on a massive amount of expereince.

Your root comment was comical, you basically said boxers have no root so they cannot generate much power. Maybe not what you meant but in anycase way off the mark. The second one about making them fight your game is sound if you can do it.

And it is not forget your art and become a boxer but adapt to reality. A standard boxing guard is very effective for both offence and defence. All traditional defensive stances I have seen are no where close to as effective in the ring. On the steet it matters less because most people sukk at fighting.

[Yum Cha]

San Shou Guru,
Firstly, congratulations on your experience level, it obviously means a lot to you.

In my 35 years of training, I've picked up a couple of tricks too, hard as it may be to believe, Mr. "Guru".

Before you carry on any further about what you THINK I said, perhaps you should read my original post again, where the only thing I said directly about boxers was to respect their skills.


A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit.

Tangle the feet, disrupt the rhythm, take him out of his comfort zone and into yours.

No easy solution, just another tactic to employ as you experiment. Boxers have a great game, don't disrespect it.

[neilhytholt]

Dayum, it's only May, and we already have the Mostest Stupid Post of the Year! :D

Pssst, Neil, those weren't boxers: stop beating retards! It's not nice!


No, actually they were boxers. :) Boxers think they're so great, but the reason they're so great is they have good conditioning and actually get out there and fight with each other. Their techniques are basic at best.

But thanks for your vote of confidence!

[SanShou Guru]

Yum Cha,

You are right I do not know how I could have read:

"A man bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes has a poor root to exploit."

as you saying boxers have a poor root. Some do have a poor root as do many (most in the beginning) CMA. Yes me experience is important to me as your 35 years is to you since that is what we base our comments on. The quality of root has little to do with the "bobbing and weaving, dancing, shuffling on his toes" but where his root is when contact is made. "Light as a feather when you move, 1000 lbs when you clash" is how we teach. If you only have a solid root then you can be picked apart at range by a fast fighter. If you are only light then you will get tossed around. When we get guys who are too light we make them take Tai Chi to get more grounded. When we have someone with too much root we make them jump rope and dance. Balance is everything because you need both. But you know this already.

[Mr Punch]

Woah! I got a double mention, that's so special...The first one I was saying in my inimitably subtle way, that I disagreed with you. Often I think I agree with you, in this case I think you have gone for one of the biggest and most ignorant cliches in the kung fu book about boxers, and I was surprised to hear it from you. The second time I just saw an opportunity for a cheap gag :D Sorry!


Anyway, how about a reality check? I made the assumption the poster, the one asking for advice, was at the novice end, sparring a boxer of similar qualifications.

Some of you guys reckon he's fighting a reinvigorated fusion of Tyson and Ali.No, but I do reckon that after three months of none-too-dedicated but hard boxing training I had had it beaten into me when to float and when to root... and I reckong I was slow! Some of my bros worked it out a lot quicker: after literally a couple of weeks.

You don't need to be Tyson or Ali to work out the footwork and rooting in boxing: it's real beginners' stuff.


And the best advice offered was, "forget your kung fu and become a boxer?"Nobody said that. If you read SSG's post he says, learn boxing, and then take it back and sharpen up your kung fu. I had exactly the same experience. Within six months or less of boxing I ironed out a lot of practical problems with the legendary leaden and crap wing chun footwork. How? By boxing? No, just because the boxing helped me to realise a couple of things I had missed and my sifu in his long experience of only kung fu had missed and many many other people I've trained with who do all kinds of TCMA had missed; but were still part of that TCMA. Boxing helped it to come alive.


Hey, big news flash, its not all about you.I've no idea what this is supposed to mean.


Neil, thanks very much for taking it in good humour! :)
My statement probably comes from my own lack of practical knowledge of WAve Hands In Clouds... from what I remember it would have definitely bought me SSG's description of the result! The reason I come to this conclusion is, in the (Yang) Tai chi I learned Wave Hands was very square on to the opponent with both hands committed to some parrying/deflecting action at the same time, which would indeed get you eating most boxers' crosses.

Of course boxing is basic: it follows KISS, and that's why it's so effective (tho for the record, none of the boxers I met seem to have the ego problem that the ones you met seem to have had).

The main things I take issue with in your assessment were:

1) 'Wait'. DON'T WAIT for a boxer. Dictate the pace, take his space.

2) 'Parry their punches'. Personally I don't believe with any good fast puncher in any system that you will 'parry'/deflect/block more than one of their punches most of the time. Some very talented individuals I've seen can: I'm not one of them after 18 years of training. Usually you get one chance: eg block then strike back / slip and counterpunch / parry then straight... etc. If you try you'll be chasing arms and eating knuckle sandwiches. Plus again, you'll be reacting rather than being proactive.

3) 'Just floor them with a straight punch to the face'. Daym, that's simple. If only all other boxers knew that, then maybe more than 50% of boxers would win their matches... :rolleyes: If I'd thought of that when I was a younger man, I could have been a champion!

4) 'if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch': again the theory being that you can pick and choose. IME it usually goes usually too fast. Plus I want to be working my reflex actions not having to think about what to use. Maybe I'm punchy but my thinking's just too slow for most fights!

[Yum Cha]

Guru,
How could anybody disagree with your articulation of the essential skill of boxing footwork. I much prefer "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee", but "Light as a feather when you move, 1000 lbs when you clash" is groovy too. May I use it?

Of course, the same would apply to many styles with mobility. I still love watching old vids of Ali in his heyday, uncatchable, yet flat footed for the split second when he attacked. Falling away with awkward counterpunching that was effective nevertheless for that single split second when needed. My favorite master, by far.

Yes, I can understand your interpretation that I was talking about boxers, however many kick-boxers bounce and bound about, and many boxers shuffle solidly and close in on you behind a brick wall defense. The point is, IF they display a poor root, exploit it.

Alternatively, lead them into temptation, and deliver them some evil....

I have never fought two fighters that were the same. I suggest that there are no keys to defeating a given fighter that are the same, a few tricks work on many, but there are always exceptions. For the sake of the thread, I think its fair to say we're not all that far apart.

Mat,
I love cheap gags, speaking of which, how's your MAMA!

Seriously, know your enemy and you'll know yourself. I agree you need to understand the way a boxer fights, but you also need to understand that its his game, not yours, unless of course, you want to become a boxer instead of the Traditional stylist.

My personal issue is with people who think traditional arts are useless because they get beaten in the ring. And the proof is that when they start kickboxing, they don't get beaten in the ring. The ring is not the final measure, fun and challenging that it may be. It comes down to rules, practice and experience. OH! and lets not forget fittness and age, just to sort out the men from the boys...

Having been there and done that myself, my personal mission is to try to remind the traditionalists that there are skills that work, traditionally, but they don't come overnight, and they don't come without practice and failure, like so many things in the world. Many traditional stylists quit before they reach the ability, and some never get it, even though they teach, so there is a lot of "crippled children" out there, we've seen them all before. Kung fu forms, kick-boxing in the ring. Yawn. But perserverence, practice and a good master can give you a different outcome. They don't look the same in books or videos as they do in successful application, for sure.

I've been told to watch that new movie with Viggo Mortessen (sp?) (Aragorn from LOTR) about extreme violence, or something like that, because it features real, practical, kill the "MF" quickly fighting. Anybody seen it? How do they fight? Is it interesting, does it look practical, or is it staged stuff that could never really be?

Anybody ever met a Mossad agent, and gone over the type of fighting they are taught? I suspect its stuff like that.

Its the difference between a battle of attrition with clubs, and a sword fight. That is a principle lost on too many people.

nuff said?

Cheers

[SanShou Guru]

I spar with Mutant Warrior frequently and his footwork is terrible. He is awkward, off balance, seemingly clumsy. I tried to make him more standard in his movements to no avail. But you know what, he hits me all the time. I have to pay more attention fighting him then anyone else. He is so effective that I stopped trying to “fix” his stance but instead just worked on his power. Sometimes if it’s broke it see if it still works.

Ali was amazing at dropping his root at the moment of impact. It is a balance, no root no power, all root no speed. The real point of this thread is for people to recognize that everything has a good and bad. If you think you know it all and you style is the best then someone who adapts will smoke you. We change our skills all the time as the sport evolves. We also encourage new students to show us things they think may work and talk about the good and the bad of the new move. Locking to one scheme is a great way to have others pass you.

Peace,
SSG

[neilhytholt]

I spar with Mutant Warrior frequently and his footwork is terrible. He is awkward, off balance, seemingly clumsy. I tried to make him more standard in his movements to no avail. But you know what, he hits me all the time. I have to pay more attention fighting him then anyone else. He is so effective that I stopped trying to “fix” his stance but instead just worked on his power. Sometimes if it’s broke it see if it still works.

Ali was amazing at dropping his root at the moment of impact. It is a balance, no root no power, all root no speed. The real point of this thread is for people to recognize that everything has a good and bad. If you think you know it all and you style is the best then someone who adapts will smoke you. We change our skills all the time as the sport evolves. We also encourage new students to show us things they think may work and talk about the good and the bad of the new move. Locking to one scheme is a great way to have others pass you.

Peace,
SSG

Well I got schooled today by a Jeet Kune Do guy ... extremely fast, non-telegraphing movements. I couldn't keep up with him at all.

But they fight on their tippie toes with their center of gravity really high and forward. But fast as hell. I don't really know what to make of it.

The only problem is none of his students seem to be even 1/2 as good as he is -- they just flail around. Kindof sad that he's so good but you'd never get that way in his class.

[neilhytholt]

1) 'Wait'. DON'T WAIT for a boxer. Dictate the pace, take his space.

2) 'Parry their punches'. Personally I don't believe with any good fast puncher in any system that you will 'parry'/deflect/block more than one of their punches most of the time. Some very talented individuals I've seen can: I'm not one of them after 18 years of training. Usually you get one chance: eg block then strike back / slip and counterpunch / parry then straight... etc. If you try you'll be chasing arms and eating knuckle sandwiches. Plus again, you'll be reacting rather than being proactive.

3) 'Just floor them with a straight punch to the face'. Daym, that's simple. If only all other boxers knew that, then maybe more than 50% of boxers would win their matches... :rolleyes: If I'd thought of that when I was a younger man, I could have been a champion!

4) 'if you don't want to break their nose use a hook punch': again the theory being that you can pick and choose. IME it usually goes usually too fast. Plus I want to be working my reflex actions not having to think about what to use. Maybe I'm punchy but my thinking's just too slow for most fights!

Let's put it this way. Like I already said, the first time I fought a boxer, I got my a** handed to me. He hit me like 5 times before I could do anything at all.

The second time I tried doing footwork, but still got hit. I was like, "WTF???" What am I doing wrong.

So the third time, in desperation, I went toe to toe with him, punching, blocking, etc. I couldn't get a shot off. So finally in desperation (basically freaking out) I used those inward parries, and then nailed him (by accident) straight in the nose, which broke it, and I got in a lot of trouble.

So I didn't spar with any boxers for a while. Then, after a year or so, I went up against another one at another school, same thing, same result, in desperation used the parries, broke the nose, in big trouble again.

So then I practiced hooking, instead of straight punching, and then a few years later at another school when I had to fight a boxer, I got him with a hook instead of the nose ... finally ... didn't get into trouble.

Anyways, this is neither here nor there. For I got my a** handed to me tonight by a JKD guy, who moves faster than anybody else I've ever met.

[David Jamieson]

Dave's list of hella boxers:

Muhammed Ali.

Larry Holmes.

Ernie Shavers

Ken Norton

Joe Frazier

I knwo that those guys are from another era, but the only skippy one in all of em was Ali.

[neilhytholt]

I've been told to watch that new movie with Viggo Mortessen (sp?) (Aragorn from LOTR) about extreme violence, or something like that, because it features real, practical, kill the "MF" quickly fighting. Anybody seen it? How do they fight? Is it interesting, does it look practical, or is it staged stuff that could never really be?

Anybody ever met a Mossad agent, and gone over the type of fighting they are taught? I suspect its stuff like that.

Its the difference between a battle of attrition with clubs, and a sword fight. That is a principle lost on too many people.

nuff said?

Cheers

It looked like practical stuff. Obviously it must have been choreographed, but it did seem realistic. I'm not sure you'd learn anything from it, but it's not a bad movie.

[David Jamieson]

when you have a weapon and a method, this is not fighting, this is the act of killing, which is different from fighting.

fights take a while when equally matched, a killing takes very little time. In fact, the victim likely won't even hear the report.

people who kill don't train in a kwoon.

people who kill don't train in a mma club.

people who kill have a whole different method and there are more than a few who don't do many situps. lol. This is likely because one doesn't need conditioning to see through a scope or squeeze a trigger with your breath held. :p