Taiji Self-Study

[RenXu]

Hello! I wanted to ask an opinion question; I've been doing Thai kickboxing for over ten years and now I'm about 29 years old and looking to do something just for the art of it all versus competition.

I'm going to be starting a new job as well so time is a bit tight (plus looking to marry in about a year) so I thought maybe I'd do some self-study of Taiji. I think that with my fighting background, it might be possible and then I would maybe find a teacher in a few years.

So my question(s) are:

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?
b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any).
c) Is this a good idea? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7238009533&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ohl39

I've heard of Earle Montaigue but opinions are all over the map. I've never heard of the other two guys.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

RX

[neilhytholt]

Hello! I wanted to ask an opinion question; I've been doing Thai kickboxing for over ten years and now I'm about 29 years old and looking to do something just for the art of it all versus competition.

I'm going to be starting a new job as well so time is a bit tight (plus looking to marry in about a year) so I thought maybe I'd do some self-study of Taiji. I think that with my fighting background, it might be possible and then I would maybe find a teacher in a few years.

So my question(s) are:

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?
b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any).
c) Is this a good idea? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7238009533&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ohl39

I've heard of Earle Montaigue but opinions are all over the map. I've never heard of the other two guys.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

RX

IMHO you don't want to self-study any martial art. Especially the forms, because without somebody correcting you on your form, you could be doing really bad things and not realize it.

Once you have a solid base, then maybe you can work on applications off of video or something, but I wouldn't really recommend that either since without a partner or a teacher correcting your applications, you can do things that don't work that well.

It seems like you should just use videos to gauge somebody's skill or decide if this is something you want to do or not, but not to actually learn off of.

Also, will you really have the discipline to learn off of video?

[Shooter]

a) What are your thoughts on self-study?

Great! As long as you don't get into anything too stylized.


b) What do you think would be the best course for self-study (if any)

Solo drills that impart the movement and energy-management skills that taijiquan is based on. 9 Temple Exercises would be good for you.:D

I would think that those tapes you linked to are a bad idea. Too stylized to really get you into the material on a personal level.

[neilhytholt]

Shooter, what tapes then would you recommend that aren't too stylized? I didn't think there were any good taiji tapes out there.

[Shooter]

I wouldn't recommend any tapes.

The stuff I'm talking about is vailable online for free

[RenXu]

Thanks for the advice - I think I would be pretty dedicated to a self-study. I'm of the credo that most improvement happens on one's own. Plus every martial art translates differently to different people's bodies.

I'm working toward softening my own hard-style with something like the Taiji form and then perhaps correcting it with a trained teacher once I think I have a good grounding in it.

As long as these tapes aren't horrible, I think they'll be good enough.

Where can I find quality FREE videos like the one's you mentioned?

Ren

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but how do you come to the conclusion that sefy study helps improvements????
Improvements come from correct practice, and correct practice comes from solid teachings, and for that you definitely need a teacher who knows what there are teaching.

I would great warn you against self study, as it's next to futile in Taiji terms.
Just because you do one martial art doesn't mean that you can jump into another and expect a certaion portion of it to directly translate!


I don't understand this every martial art translates differently to different people's bodies bit! That doesn't really make too much sense and you'll find that that isn't the case with Taiji.
Seriously it's not a good idea at all to try and learn Taiji from a video or a book. There is only one single safe, and guaranteed way to get a good uderstanding without miscomprehnsion and that is through a good fully trained teacher.
In taiji there's no benefits at all for cutting corners. Please don't think you will be able to learn a little bit about Taiji in an untutored way.
It's said that from step one, if you are out by an inch at the start of the journey then not long into the Taiji journey you will soon be out by a mile.

By all means you can try and cpy the shapes of postures in the form from video's but don't fool yourself into believing that that means you are learning Taiji.
Trully you nned a teacher to learn it.

Sorry for the heated response, but it's the truth. Self study works if you have a good 10 years solid pupil to teacher method of learning, it is so needed at the beginning not spend a year with tapes and books and then find a teacher, that way you will only be very disappointed.

Sorry.

[qiphlow]

i fully agree with repulsive monkey--there is ALOT of taiji that cannot be learned thru a video. at best, you can copy the movements, but then you are just doing an exercise that looks like taiji. better to wait until you have time to attend classes with a proper teacher.

[Scott R. Brown]

I disagree that one cannot learn on their own. All MA came from somewhere and someone had to devise each one in the first place. There is not an endless regression of teachers. At some point in the mists of time a person or group of people came up with the principles of Tai Chi and applied them. This occurred with all the MA’s. The process of discovery included a period of trial and error wherein movements and principles were modified, improved, discarded and added. What allowed the originators and modifiers to create and modify was insight and study into the principles and applications of the movements in conjunction with trial and error and real world application. If one studies and considers deeply what they are learning and consults references such as videos, books and the opinions of others they will gain benefit from their study. Learning something is better than learning nothing.

Miyamoto Musashi, one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan, had no formal instruction. He was laughed at by his opponent prior to his first duel at aged 13, a man he soon killed! It may be argued that originators and modifiers were exceptional individuals. Well, who is to say you are not an exceptional individual? Exceptional individuals forge their own path motivated by a drive to know and understand and to do it their own way! The limitations we have are the limitations we choose to accept. Do not let others argue for your own limitations. Their limitations are their own to overcome do not accept their burden as your own! You are not teaching yourself skydiving here. You will not kill yourself or endanger your safety by learning Tai Chi from a video!

It cannot be denied that having an instructor can be beneficial and may perhaps be preferable, but one must also have a GOOD and COMPETENT instructor. Novices are in no position to determine who is a good and competent instructor. It may take years to discover one is learning from an inadequate instructor. Anyone studying under an inadequate instructor will learn poor and inadequate skills and principles which they will one day need to unlearn. How is this different than learning inadequately from a video? There is no difference! Inadequate is inadequate! Many times inadequate is in the eye of the beholder anyway!

Serious study of MA is a life time process. Masters continue to gain insights as they teach and study. It may be argued that inadequate instruction is worse than no instruction. But since the student is in no position to perceive inadequate instruction he has no idea if he is learning inadequate principles and skills in the first place. If he is, he must unlearn those poor skills! Since inadequate is in the eye of the beholder it is best to start somewhere and learn as you go while gaining knowledge from alternate sources and personal study.

So to the argument that you may learn bad habits, I would reply: all new students have bad habits they must overcome. Long time practitioners have bad habits they must overcome. Masters have bad habits they must overcome. No one is perfect. Improvement is constant. Learn to discern your own inadequacies through self observation, study and insight. How do you think Masters discover their own short comings? They figure it out for themselves!

To insist that the only way to learn is from an instructor is an overused and blindly repeated principle passed on from instructor to student without any real questioning of its validity. While it may be well meaning is not an absolute!

Do not choose videos from only one source, use a variety. Lean to observe the movements closely. Think about what you are learning. Teach yourself to observe your own movements and introspect into your mind to gain insight into the movements and principles. This is how the originators made their discoveries. Many things that are learned cannot be taught by another, they must be perceived through insight. Study books as well. I suggest “Tai Chi Classics” translated by Waysun Liao and there are many other valuable sources. Yang Jwing Ming is a good source for many topics.

Forge your own path, learn what is of interest to you and do not allow naysayers to negatively influence you. If and when you are able to, or become so inclined, study from an instructor. When you do empty your cup and learn that instructor’s method. Then integrate what you have learned from the instructor into your own knowledge base.

Good Luck!

[imperialtaichi]

My biggest concerns would be developing bad habbits.

Any Tom ****s and Harries can learn the movements from video. But what if you missed something and picked up some bad habbits?

Plus, some of the bad habits could be internal and not visible even if you are really good at copying the movements.

Once you develope the bad habits, it could take years to undo.

So if you just want to do some Tai Chi for relaxation, just buy yourself a book or some videos. But if you want to be good at it you'll have to find a good teacher.

Cheers,
John

[Hunt]

I practice alot on my own..I have access to my teacher about every other sunday..and maybe once a week I get together with some other chen people and we study the form (Lao Jia Yilu) together....But usually I only have about an hour in the morning to practice before I go to work....I can't stress the importance of a teacher or even practicing with piers.... My teacher has helped me catch a number of unconscience mistakes I was adding to the form, as well as elaborating on application and theory....

How far do you think your skills as a kickboxer would have progressed if you never recieved any hands on instruction.

I'm of the opinion that there are essential elements in any MA that can not be learned via a video, book..etc....They can be a useful supplement, but never a replacement for an actual instructer

[RenXu]

All;

Firstly, I truly appreciate the time that everyone has taken to answer my question. I do think that self-study if possible if one has a good grounding in other arts. I've been doing kickboxing for over ten years and martial arts in general for close to 15. Still, I will humbly take all your points into account as this is all new to me.

As for the body mechanics bit, at the end of the day, we all have two arms and two legs so differences in techniques ultimately (IMHO) return to the weight, health, height, tenacity, natural ability, etc of the student.

In any case, I do think that tapes are fine for some self-study (I myself have a handful already for my kickboxing and there's at least a few things I learned from them). My question was (and is) pertains to the quality of the people mentioned in the tapes - I think the self-study portion has been answered throughly. :)

RX

[RenXu]

One more thing - Scott Brown, you mentioned that Dr. Yang was good. Who else would you recommend? Did any of the names in that ebay thing jump out at you?

RX

[dleungnyc]

RX, not to discourage but just a FYI.

I used to think that I could learn the internal martial arts thru books/video etc. But after finally having time to attend a real class with a qualified teacher. I was amazed that the amount of 'subtle' movements that was missing from all the books/video that I have seen. I am not claiming to have read/seen every internal martial arts books/videos in existence, but, I have yet to see one that explains fully what exactly involves in each movement.

[qiphlow]

regarding dleungnyc's post above:
exactly! you can't readily see the internal part of taiji on a video, nor can you readily know it from a book, especially without having done any taiji before. i think that books and videos are a great supplement to teacher training, but they should not be a substitute for teacher training. when i started on my taiji journey, i had bad habits, but they were corrected by my instructors before they became a big problem. also, you can't ask questions of a book or a video (and when learning taiji, you will have questions...).

as to the ebay items: dr yang's book is good. the screenshots of the tapes look like the tapes are the usual new-age taiji stuff--i don't know about the combat taiji tapes( although a good instructor will show you combat applicatins within the form). the price is good for all the items. please note that the seller used these items as a reference to supplement what he learned from his teacher!

if you want some other good videos or books, you could pick up a copy of tai chi magazine, the back pages are filled with all kinds of internal martial art books and videos.

[Chief Fox]

In the absence of a qualified teacher a video is the next best thing. But tai chi chuan is very intricate.

Maybe you could hook up with an instructor once or twice a month just to get some real instruction and feedback. The you could train on your own using a video for reference the other times.

Also, please call it Tai Chi Chuan or Taijiquan. After all, Grand Ultimate is nothing with out the Fist. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi RenXu,

I have not formally trained in Tai Chi (Chuan;)) for over 25 years so I cannot tell you who has the best tapes. I do continue to observe, read about, and experiment with Tai Chi (Chuan;)) principles. I have Yang’s tapes on Bagua and Tai Chi (Chuan;)) as well as a number of his books on Chin Na, Bagua (Chuan;)), Chi Kung, etc. I would ask TaiChi(Chuan;))Bob what he thinks. I know TaiChi(Chuan;))Bob has associated with Yang and has a high regard for him, but he may have other recommendations as well. If he doesn’t post here give him a PM and ask him directly. The “Tai Chi (Chuan;)) Classics” book I mentioned previously is very good concerning Tai Chi (Chuan;))Principles. One of the things concerning books and vids is that they either speak to you or they don’t! Sometimes a good practitioner will produce an inadequate video or book. I will say: do not judge based upon production quality! Sometimes the worst production quality has the best information. There are also innumerable ways of expressing and interpreting the same principles even if the movements are somewhat identical, because of this everyone has something to teach. Even if it is crap, you are one step closer to identifying crap when you see it! That is why I recommend reviewing a number of sources.

I myself am planning on acquiring a collection of Tai Chi (Chuan;)) vids. I already have a number of books and Yang's vids. I am considering returning to Tai Chi (Chuan;)) in the next 5-10 years because I am getting older now, LOL!!

Try looking at: www.taichidepot.com Pick something and experiment with it. If you like it continue, if you don’t, move on to something else. A wrong step is only a wrong step if you fail to learn something from it. Even if you learned you don’t like it, it is still a valuable lesson which you will use as a reference when evaluating future materials.

[Chief Fox]

Ok, that was funny. Point taken. ;) :D

[RenXu]

Hey everyone - thanks again. I think I'm going do some self-study BUT I'll look for a good teacher when I get a chance. The problem is that in between my new job (which changes daily as I assess insurance claims so I never know where I am M-F) and my fiancee, it's a rare thing when I get some time to myself.

I think it would be for my stress level and give me a good taste to decide if I should pursuit it seriously.

This is really a great community!:D

RX

[Ma Long]

I'm working toward softening my own hard-style with something like the Taiji form

If this is your goal maybe what you need is some tapes on Yoga. In my experience Taiji is a hard style.

[mantid1]

I think the best way to reduce your stress level would be took stop living such a stressful life.

I also think that trying to learn tai chi from video will just add more stress to your life. It is not easy.

I think you would be just as well of to train in the kick boxing since you already know it. You could aslo take the yoga suggestion or some type of meditation since you could realistically "follow" a tape on these things.

Not trying to be negative just trying to save you some time.

[neilhytholt]

I think the best way to reduce your stress level would be took stop living such a stressful life.

I also think that trying to learn tai chi from video will just add more stress to your life. It is not easy.

I think you would be just as well of to train in the kick boxing since you already know it. You could aslo take the yoga suggestion or some type of meditation since you could realistically "follow" a tape on these things.

Not trying to be negative just trying to save you some time.

Just do the kickboxing really slow. That's all Yang Tai Ji is, is some longfist done really slow, right?

[mantid1]

No, the kickboxing would still be a great work out and he wouldnt have to waste time trying to learn from a tape. A good cardio workout is also a great stress reliever.....so

I would not consider tai chi fighiting techniques being applied the same way as long fist. Very up close and personal with a lot of throwing and chin na, but if people only practice the forms without application that would be what most would think. Just another long fist style.

Yeah, I know, long fist has throws also.

Thats another story for another forum.

[chud]

I understand how hard it can be trying to balance work, family, and time for yourself (Taijiquan). I would recommend finding a good Taijiquan teacher and then approach him and explain your schedule. Tell him that your schedule is too unpredictable for group classes, and that you would like to do private lessons when you can, maybe once or twice a month. Then after you start with him, you can ask him if he knows of any good videos that he'd recommend. You can then use these as memory aids to help your training in between the occasional private lesson.

[brucereiter]

Thanks for the advice - I think I would be pretty dedicated to a self-study. I'm of the credo that most improvement happens on one's own. Plus every martial art translates differently to different people's bodies.

I'm working toward softening my own hard-style with something like the Taiji form and then perhaps correcting it with a trained teacher once I think I have a good grounding in it.

As long as these tapes aren't horrible, I think they'll be good enough.

Where can I find quality FREE videos like the one's you mentioned?

Ren

i would suggest studying with a good teacher for 3-5 years several times per week before you could "self study" tai chi chuan. just my 2 cents worth ... it is hard to unlearn bad habits and without a good teacher to smack you on the head bad habits will creep into your practice.

[dleungnyc]

The biggest problem with self study is picking up bad habits that if practice for a prolong time, will be very difficult to correct.

Just one example, in most 'external' style, to throw a punch, you have to 'push' your fist out. But in Taichi Chuan, at least the way I am taught, you 'pull' your fist out. I have yet to see this mention in any book or video. FYI.

[pudaoking]

Quote:

"I disagree that one cannot learn on their own. All MA came from somewhere and someone had to devise each one in the first place. There is not an endless regression of teachers. At some point in the mists of time a person or group of people came up with the principles of Tai Chi and applied them. This occurred with all the MA’s. The process of discovery included a period of trial and error wherein movements and principles were modified, improved, discarded and added. What allowed the originators and modifiers to create and modify was insight and study into the principles and applications of the movements in conjunction with trial and error and real world application. If one studies and considers deeply what they are learning and consults references such as videos, books and the opinions of others they will gain benefit from their study. Learning something is better than learning nothing.

Miyamoto Musashi, one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan, had no formal instruction. He was laughed at by his opponent prior to his first duel at aged 13, a man he soon killed! It may be argued that originators and modifiers were exceptional individuals. Well, who is to say you are not an exceptional individual? Exceptional individuals forge their own path motivated by a drive to know and understand and to do it their own way! The limitations we have are the limitations we choose to accept. Do not let others argue for your own limitations. Their limitations are their own to overcome do not accept their burden as your own! You are not teaching yourself skydiving here. You will not kill yourself or endanger your safety by learning Tai Chi from a video!

It cannot be denied that having an instructor can be beneficial and may perhaps be preferable, but one must also have a GOOD and COMPETENT instructor. Novices are in no position to determine who is a good and competent instructor. It may take years to discover one is learning from an inadequate instructor. Anyone studying under an inadequate instructor will learn poor and inadequate skills and principles which they will one day need to unlearn. How is this different than learning inadequately from a video? There is no difference! Inadequate is inadequate! Many times inadequate is in the eye of the beholder anyway!

Serious study of MA is a life time process. Masters continue to gain insights as they teach and study. It may be argued that inadequate instruction is worse than no instruction. But since the student is in no position to perceive inadequate instruction he has no idea if he is learning inadequate principles and skills in the first place. If he is, he must unlearn those poor skills! Since inadequate is in the eye of the beholder it is best to start somewhere and learn as you go while gaining knowledge from alternate sources and personal study.

So to the argument that you may learn bad habits, I would reply: all new students have bad habits they must overcome. Long time practitioners have bad habits they must overcome. Masters have bad habits they must overcome. No one is perfect. Improvement is constant. Learn to discern your own inadequacies through self observation, study and insight. How do you think Masters discover their own short comings? They figure it out for themselves!

To insist that the only way to learn is from an instructor is an overused and blindly repeated principle passed on from instructor to student without any real questioning of its validity. While it may be well meaning is not an absolute!

Do not choose videos from only one source, use a variety. Lean to observe the movements closely. Think about what you are learning. Teach yourself to observe your own movements and introspect into your mind to gain insight into the movements and principles. This is how the originators made their discoveries. Many things that are learned cannot be taught by another, they must be perceived through insight. Study books as well. I suggest “Tai Chi Classics” translated by Waysun Liao and there are many other valuable sources. Yang Jwing Ming is a good source for many topics.

Forge your own path, learn what is of interest to you and do not allow naysayers to negatively influence you. If and when you are able to, or become so inclined, study from an instructor. When you do empty your cup and learn that instructor’s method. Then integrate what you have learned from the instructor into your own knowledge base. "

Yeah, that's a real nice speech for boosting his morale, but....... First of all, you neglect to mention that all of the masters who created their own styles, first had a firm grounding in one or more styles before they came up with their new improved style that they created to best suit themselves. Ok, yes there probably was a person or people who came up with the first chinese martial art but it took decades or more, for future generations to add and correct techniques that would evolve into the complete art that it is today. You can't just say, hey I want to invent a new martial art all by myself without any formal training, it just doesn't work, otherwise none of us would need teachers and create our own styles. Sure you could come up with tecniques that might seem plausible but it would take many, many years of trial and error and many more years of future generations enhancing it before it could be usable. Taijiquan has been around for hundreds of years in which time it has been refined and honed to a complete martial art. But the person or persons who originally created it had training in qigong and other martial art styles like long fist before creating Taijiquan. And yes there are many masters who came up with different methods or styles of Taijiquan, but each one of them studied a previous version of it. It is one thing to alter a style by improving upon its principals and theories and adding to it to suit ones needs after decades of study and practice in the art, and quite another to create a style all on one's own. Also I agree with you that you need a competent and qualified teacher, but to say well there's no way of a beginer knowing wheather or not the teacher is competent enough to teach so you have as much chance of practicing correctly or inncorrectly on your own is ridiculus. There are tons of teachers throughout the world who are qualified to teach styles like Taijiquan. All a person has to do is go on the internet and educate themselves with what teachers are well recieved by students and fellow masters, what their liniage is and who they were taught by and read their articles in magazines and books, watch their dvds, etc. To judge how good a teacher is you look at their students. If the students are able to learn efficiently and can grasp and understand the art and preform it to high standards with good moral and ethical standards, then the teacher is good. you can find out about any well known master on the web. You can even take seminars by them and judge for yourself. And by the way where did you get your information about Miyomoto Musashi? I have read many biographies of his in books and on the net, and I have never read anywhere that he was self taught. I remember reading that he did have formal training in kendo when he was young, and that later in life he invented his two sword fighting style. Last of all I want to say I have studied and practiced chinese martial arts since 1985, and by my own experiance to learn Taijiquan by books and videos is an extremely bad idea. To think one can learn that way is very unrealistic. The real art of Taijiquan is not seen it is felt. The outward appearence can be decieving as to what is really going on inside. In my opinion to learn Taijiquan by these methods is even less plausible then expecting to be a kung fu master by watching and studying a jackie chan movie. It just aint gonna happen. Without qualified instruction by a teacher face to face first, youre just wasting your time and efforts, by practicing incorrectly, and will most probably create bad habits that will be very difficult to unlearn when a real teacher becomes available in the future. Not to mention the possibility of causing your self injury either externally or internally. Just my 2 cents on the matter, if you think I am wrong on my views, I am open to recieve any of your criticism and will try my upmost to recieve them with an open mind.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi, pudaoking,

I have been studying the MA since 1974. I have been teaching since 1977. I have studied formally about half a dozen arts, including Tai Chi and informally another 6 -10, I lose track. After training in the MA for so long it is no longer very mysterious to me. To me it is rather basic stuff. I understand that it isn’t that basic to beginners, but RenXu is not intending to master Tai Chi, just begin his studies independently and then find an instructor later.

I do not rule out anyone’s ability to master anything independent of instruction. I take this position because I chose not to accept the limitations imposed by society or other individuals. I am unconcerned how likely or unlikely it is that anyone may accomplish mastery of any pursuit without instruction. If the person is intelligent and motivated who am I to say what they may accomplish or not? I prefer to try not to impose my limitations on others as well as not accept the limitations of others for myself. I may believe it is unlikely RenXu will acquire any advanced skill from learning from videos or books, but neither would I state it is impossible. Who am I to limit him? Learning from videos is not actually learning without instruction anyway, it is learning without having the opportunity to be personally corrected by one more experienced that yourself. If one has gained personal insight and is able to introspect and pay attention to detail it is certainly possible, even if it is improbable, and I try not to impose that limitation on another person.

We create and/or accept our own limitations. It is clear people will argue/fight for their own limitations and seek to impose them on others. Just because someone says and believes something cannot be done does not mean it cannot be done. Even experts are frequently wrong! Everyone has an agenda and beliefs and attitudes they accept as truth. Sometimes the beliefs are based upon experience, other times they are based upon socialization or indoctrination given to us by those whom we accept as an authority. However, history has demonstrated repeatedly that the limitations accepted by individuals and societies may be transcended by those who do not accept them.

Many times what is considered adequate or expert performance of skills are in the eye of the beholder. Just because something is pretty to watch does not automatically confer expertise or adequacy of ability in a real life encounter. The impressive abilities of “Masters”, and MMA fighters, occur within a fixed context. The ring, a demonstration or the classroom context rarely applies to the real world.

To date it has been my experience that I am able to foil any attempt by anyone to perform any special feat once I understand the mechanics of the technique. This is because there is a context for everything, once you understand the context you may change the context and the technique or skill will not be effective. Think of it as changing the rules in the middle of the game. Once you understand the rules that your opponent plays by all you need do is change the rules and you increase your likelihood of victory.

All skills, including the MA, follow specific root principles. Root principles are the most important thing to learn in any field of study. Root principles are the foundation upon which the knowledge of every field of study is built. If we understand the root we will understand everything that springs from it. Most people who train in the MA do not learn the root. One may train for 50 years and never understand the root, or they may train for 5 or 10 years and grasp the deeper principles. Age and expertise are not the measure of insight; understanding and insight depend upon the individual, not time and experience.

Tai Chi is not that difficult to learn if one applies themselves to it. There is no special mystery to it. Just because it may have been difficult for you or others does not mean the limitations you have accepted need apply to others. If an individual comes to understand the root, then they may apply the principles and become proficient even if their performance of skill appears inadequate.

A recommendation by others or the success of students in competition does not guarantee the competence of an art or a teacher. Success in competition does not guarantee success in a real life encounter nor does it guarantee adequate skill! Even poor and inadequate teachers have students that are devoted to them and are willing to exaggerate for their instructor. Some students may be convinced their incompetent teacher is competent. There is no guarantee that the students are competent enough to know their teacher is competent! I have been around a large number of MAists in my life, many have considered themselves or their instructors to be knowledgeable, but to me they were half-rate. Indeed, I am sure there are some who would consider me half-rate. This merely proves my point of agendas, personal limitations and context. We all have our own!

Anyone who has trained at different schools of the same style with presumed “competent” instructors they will eventually find that even these “competent experts” may interpret and/or apply the same technique or principle differently. No single interpretation is necessarily right or wrong. The instructors merely approach the technique or principle differently because they approach the technique or principle from a different context.

I am unsure of the source for my comments about Musashi. I thought I read it in 5 Rings, but I see I was incorrect. I hope I didn’t get it from the novel that will be a bit embarrassing, OOPS! I usually try to confirm my historical statements before I make them. For now I better retract my statement. The error of my statement however does not change my opinion that an instructor is not always necessary, however as you noted I do believe an instructor is clearly helpful.

Not all masters learned from someone else because at some point there was a “First Master”. It may be deduced that this master was a progenitor of an incomplete system, but that is not known as a fact merely assumed. Even if my statement about Musashi was accurate, he would still have needed to observe others using the katana to learn and understand the basics, and this is a type of instruction. No one lives in a vacuum after all. All information comes from somewhere, if not from others then from personal experience or insight!

To get closer to my point, mastery is not a matter of physical, skill but a matter of personal intent and personal mastery. Personal mastery is accomplished through individual effort which may be guided by others, but is not dependent upon the instruction of others. In Zen it is frequently asserted that to Master oneself is to Master all things! This is illustrated by the example of Shoji! (And I do have sources for this story, ;) )

There was a Japanese Zen Master and hermit named Shoji (1642-1721). Shoji was teacher to Hakuin another well known Japanese Zen Master. On one occasion Shoji was invited to observe a training session for master swordsmen. The swordsmen voiced admiration for Shoji’s Zen, but questioned its practicality for swordsmen. Shoji invited the swordsmen to attack him and they obliged him, all attacking at once. Not one was able to strike Shoji, but he was able to rap each one at least once on the head with his fan. Amazed and humbled by this demonstration the swordsmen asked Shoji his secret. Shoji replied, “If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!!!

This is a story of an individual with no swordsmanship skill defeating accepted Masters. If it can be done once it can be done again, and this was the point I was attempting to demonstrate with the Musashi reference.

It seems to me that to assume one cannot “feel” the meaning of the Art of Tai Chi without instruction is forcing ones own limitations upon others. If one studies Tao and attempts to bring oneself into accord with the principles of Tao, then one has acquired the “feeling” of Tai Chi even if they have no knowledge of the actual movements! This was clearly demonstrated by Shoji.

I disagree with the assertion that it is a waste of time to learn on ones own or that one will learn insurmountable mistakes. Beginners have bad habits, advanced practitioners have bad habits, instructors have bad habits, and most masters have bad habits. Perfecting skill takes constant introspective observation. One of the measures of a skilled student is the ability to observe ones own performance, compare it to a presumed ideal, and then correct oneself. This is an ability that may be learned, but cannot be taught. It is a skill of the mind, not of the body.

To think anyone will ever be above the mistakes or poor habits is not realistic. This is because what is considered perfect is an arbitrary decision. As I previously pointed out, two instructors may interpret and perform the same movement differently. Who is correct and who is mistaken? Neither one is incorrect, because they each believe in their own personal insight and they each have their own context from which they justify their view. One may say then, that a mistake is merely an action we perform without intending to do so. This is an error of the mind, of awareness, not an error of skill or ability.

Thank you for your thoughtful post!

[DarinHamel]

Seems to me this entire thread is indicating a need for a self-study system. Sounds like a business opportunity to me. Hint-hint Kung Fu magazine people. DVD's and books aren't enough for most so maybe an interactive CD Rom on your computer. A virtual master that is interactive?

[pudaoking]

Hi Scott, I just read your new post, and I understand better now your views and beliefs. First off I'd like to say thank you for the excellent story regarding Shoji. I enjoyed it immensely. And you did bring up an excellent point. Your also right in that RenXu is not currently looking to master Taijiquan, just to practice in it a little before finding instruction. So I guess at a beginner level it may benifit some people to study with books and videos, I just come from a background that respects peoples insights and knowledge based on their experiances in fields of interest that I study, so I can learn from their mistakes, and although I may make plenty of my own, I would at least know to avoid the ones they made. I also agree with you that who are any of us to judge what another persons limitations or capabilities are, but since you don't know for sure what RenXu's are I still believe it may be bad advice to say to him go for it when there is the chance that he may cause more harm to himself then good without proper instruction. As to what you said regarding root principals, I agree with you wholeheartedly and couldn't have said it better myself. I also agree with what you said regarding the success of students or teachers in competition. I personally never judge one's martial arts ability on competition alone. I agree that competitions are very limited in their scope of what can or can't be used by the individual on the streets. And I myself in the past have met and even at times studied with famous teachers whom their students follow blindly and with hindsight, I believe weren't as knowledgable or skilled or moral as they should be. Some were just out to make a quick buck. I like to think of myself as more knowledgeable and less gullable then I was in my past choosing of "masters". As far as teachers having different interpretations of how the style or techniques should be done, all teachers teach it differently then other teachers even ones who studied the same style and from the same teacher! And there is no right or wrong way in their interpretations but My point is that the core foundation principals and basics are the important part that needs to be taught from the begining by a legitiamate teacher, then once a student understands these fully and can preform them correctly then he can practice the "window dressing" in his own way with his own style and self teaching. Also I too belive that no one is perfect and that no matter how skilled, or high a level you are you will still have bad habits and make mistakes, and never meant to infer otherwise. And it has been proven, at least in scientific history, that some things like, inventions, or positive results of some kind, came about purely by accident when one had made a mistake in their data. So if you can learn from your mistakes you can grow and improve, and mistakes are a nessessary part of learning throughout one's life, but I still believe in listening and learning about the experiances of qualified instruction by teachers who have already been there and done that so the student can limit the amount of mistakes he will make and have the benifit of their breakthroghs without wasting time with unnessasary mistakes. Teachers are only there to guide and most of the advanced learning will come from the continued practice of the student on his own. I still say you can see how good a teacher is by his students. If the students of a teacher can perform skillfully to a high degree all the same things the teacher can with results in areas like push hands, forms with correct posture, Qi flow, fa jing, rooting etc. and can properly explain the theories and principals of the style, then I believe that the teacher has proven himself to be a worthy guide in your martial arts journey. Anyway I think I have ranted enough, I enjoyed your last post and look forward to reading your future ones. Take care.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi pudaoking,

Your points are well made and I cannot find fault with any of them. They are reasonable and will “mostly” be found to be true in actual experience.

The only difference of opinion is I don’t believe it will do any long term damage to study on ones own and I believe it could actually be of benefit in some ways.

I do agree that ones students can be a good reflection on the instructor’s ability, however, if one is a beginner he does not have the expertise to judge based upon observing students or instructors since he cannot judge if what he is seeing is skillful or not. Something may appear impressive that in reality is nothing special and something that appears nothing special could be a display of advanced skill. Since a beginner has no experience to draw from to guide his judgments observing the students won't tell him much.

I too appreciate your comments and look forward to reading more of your posts.

[yenhoi]

http://www.emptyflower.com/

http://www.shenwu.com/

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/ntes.htm

:cool:

[Ray Pina]

In all honesty we can ask ourselves, even with those who have studied years with a "qualified" teacher, have gone to seminars, have all the books and tapes .... who has good Taiji? And by asking who has good Taiji, I mean, who can put their money where their mouth is?

You'll be hard to find a system with more people with something to say with so few actually willing to do. The way most people view Taiji (it's "softness) gives them a way out of combat, saying that's not what it's used for. But in that response shows the lack of knowledge already. Taiji certainly has its hardness, it's damming power. It has both.

Honestly, in NYC area I know Novell Bell always seems willing to fight and credits taiji as a source of his material and Max and Tiffany Chan and myself compete regularly. That's 4 people in an area of I would guess thousands of taiji practioners. With numbers like that, something is wrong.

Now, I understand not everyone is looking for combat. But taiji is a fighting system. If you don't have that, you don't have taiji. It's not something you can gain by doing form in the air. You can develop attributes and skill that way, but to LEARN taiji, you must USE taiji.

And I'm as guilty as any, because I see now there aren't degrees of knowing. You either have it, or not. I want it, so I train and test and play with it and look at it from here and look at it from there. But I don't have Taiji. I don't have Ba Gua or Hsing-I. I have certain attributes from them that help me learn E-Chuan. But it's like building a car frame, and an engine, and the tires. My car is not complete .... so what do I have?

Right now I'm getting by with a Ford Taurus. It runs well and gets me around, but I want a nice jet black Ferrarri.

[dleungnyc]

Its interesting, correct me if I am wrong or mis-interpreted someone's post.

Just about everyone here that's studying with a teacher advised against self study for the beginners, mainly for the following reasons. Unseen technqiues that are not shown in books/video, picking up bad habits etc.

Those that want to self study as a beginner without any formal instructions, insisted that it can be done from a book/video?

Am I missing something here?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dleungnyc,

I can’t speak for anyone else here, buuuuuut,


I have trained in the MA for 32 years. I have been teaching intermittently for 29 years. I received my blackbelt 27 years ago after an exam that included a 25 page minimum written test, an oral exam and a physical exam that took 7 ½ hrs wherein I lost 15 pounds.

In the intervening time I have trained formally in about 10-12 or so other arts including Tai Chi, (the training was approx 25 years ago) about 6 arts or so formally and another 6 or so other arts informally. By nature I have a questioning and iconoclastic frame of mind. Just that fact someone says it can’t be done inspires me to demonstrate it CAN be done.

Naysayers are a dime a dozen, but they only have to be proven wrong once to demonstrate their view is incorrect.

[dleungnyc]

Scott, I understand what you are trying to say, maybe I worded my post incorrectly. Let me try again. :)

Maybe I should had asked those that are planning to self-teach/train in Tai chi. What is their definition of Tai Chi? Or what they really think Tai Chi is? If one think just learning the forms from a book or video, do they really qualify to say that they know Tai Chi now?

What if those of us here that are studying with a qualified teacher(at least by our individual standards) says that learning the forms without learning the basic 13 postures(8 powers and 5 element steps) is just a waste of time?

What if one self taught/train tai chi and think they are done now. Will they look up a qualified teacher in the future? Will they know what a qualified teacher is anymore because of their 'interpretation' of what tai chi is? If one do manage to find a qualified teacher and willing to 'retrain' again, how easy or hard would it be for them to overcome their muslce memory of their self training?

I do hope you find my questions are valid.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dleungnyc,

I think you are asking some very good questions!

First I think we should make a distinction between what commonly occurs, what is likely to occur, what is plausible and what is possible.

From the perspective of what commonly occurs, what is likely to occur, and what is plausible it seems clear that one would find the most benefit from having an instructor.

If we consider what is possible however, we reach a grayer area, since what is possible is pretty much an unknown for most of us on this particular topic. Within the context of this discussion we have a person with some MA experience (so he is not a complete novice) who is interested in learning Tai Chi, but finds formal instruction at present either unavailable or inconvenient.

The question then arises, would there be any benefit for him to begin his studies learning from videos? As a result of this question we have basically two views, one says yes, the other says no.

We must admit that under ideal conditions a qualified instructor will be the most beneficial avenue to take. No informed person would claim a qualified instructor is not a benefit. However, this is not really the question posed. The question is, will learning from a video be a benefit absent any formal instruction from a qualified teacher?

The problem with this question is that the answer is in the eye of the beholder. In truth no one knows whether it would benefit RenXu or not. We are all speculating based upon our personal experiences and perspective.

RenXu is an individual that none of us know. We do not know his personal insight, intelligence, motivation, ability or experiences. We cannot be a fair judge of his ability to gain benefit from independent study. So while most here appear to choose to err on the side of caution, which in this circumstance relegates their assessment of RenXu to being incapable of learning on his own, my view is more of a positive outlook, more encouraging. Rather than relegate RenXu automatically to the classification of the general public which is incompetent to learn on their own, I accept the possibility he may be an exceptional person and may be able to learn something of benefit on his own. Within the context of his question it seems that recommendations to seek qualified instruction is wise, however to suggest that he would gain no useful benefit from independent study IMHO is overstepping and an inherently negative perspective. It basically assumes RenXu is like “us” and cannot do it! It comes from the limited view that, “Because I can't do it and I don’t know anyone who can or has done it, no one can do it!” This is a risky assumption IMHO! The Truth is we have no idea whether it will be of benefit or not for RenXu even if we just assume the odds are not in favor of a benefit occurring.

We must try to remember that human behavior and abilities tends to fall within the traditional bell curve. While approximately 80% of the public will fall within the middle portion there are a number of individuals that will be above and below the mean. Whereas most appear to assume the middle to lower end for RenXu I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and presume the possibility he could be towards the upper end, in which case he would find benefit. At any rate there is no way to know until he tries!

In regards to muscle memory, I have found that whenever I begin to train in a different art I must train my body to function from slightly differently to very differently depending upon the art. Because of my many years experience however, I am able to adapt to the new method of moving MORE easily not LESS easily. This is due to the basic physical coordination and body awareness I have developed over years of training. Therefore, I do not agree with the view that says learning poor habits will become a larger problem in the future than if one learned nothing at all. The ability to perform an action with 50%-80% accuracy is still better than not being able to perform the action at all. Once an individual has learned basic coordination and body awareness the ability to adapt to new or improved application of skills is easier, not harder to do.

If RenXu decides to find an instructor in the future or not is really no ones business. It is his desire and intentions that motivate his actions and decide his purpose and goals. If he chooses to find an instructor that is fine; if he has gained enough information through videos to fulfill his purpose that is for him to decide, not us. If he learns from a video and thinks he has gained all the ability and insight he needs and begins to teach, then the proof will be in the pudding. He will eventually be found out by those in the know if his knowledge and ability are inadequate. If he is found to have inadequate skill and insight then those who may be taken in by him are no different than from any other person learning from someone who is half-a$$ed. Keep in mind that in many cases half-a$$ed is in the eye of the beholder too! Sincere and devoted searchers for the truth will learn beyond what he has taught them, those who don’t are not that avid in their desire to learn anyway and there is no real significant harm done. Tai Chi as a new age exercise is different than Tai Chi as an expression of Tao in motion and as a self-defense method.

My personal view of Tai Chi is that the heart of the art is found in the principles, not in the movements. The movements are merely the vehicle used to learn, apply and internalize the principles. It is the attitude one develops and the principles they apply that make someone an adherent of Tai Chi. When an individual has internalized the principles they may take any form or movement from any MA art or any other field of endeavor and apply the principles of Tai Chi and it becomes an expression of Tai Chi. At the most fundamental level one may practice Tai Chi by applying Tai Chi principles to ANY activity, from calligraphy, to tea ceremony, to sewing, to pottery, to butchery, to tying ones shoes, etc. If an individual is comprehensively and effective applying Tai Chi principles then even what appears to be poor technique becomes proper technique by mere default.

[dleungnyc]

Scott, this is just my opinion. If one wants to self/study/train in internal martial arts, not just Tai Chi, but Xing yi and Bagua for example. I don't want to say its impossible, but I would suggest its very difficult to do it correctly.

First, IMHO, one needs to find out the distinction of internal martial arts. What makes them different? What differntiate them from 'external' martial arts. In other words, what make tham ticks. So far, I haven't read any books or seen any video that goes into details of this area. I am not saying there aren't any out there, since more are getting published every day.

In Tai chi, IMHO, the heart and soul of the system is in the 13 postuers(sp?). Without having a good understanding of the 13 postuers, learning the form is again, IMHO, waste of time. I have seen schools that teachs forms to brand new beginners, without teaching the 13 postuers. Not to sound harsh, but they all move like mannequins, with stiff arms, legs and joints. Forget the martial aspect, where's the health benefits? Again, IMHO, those people are better off taking an aerobic class, which would help their blood circulation better.

Just to sum it up, if I have to give an opinion of self teaching tai chi(or any other internal martial arts) from a book or video. Is akin to taking a native from the Amazon jungle( or any person from any primitive regions), show them a running car and ask them to reverse engineer and build one. They might get the body and the wheels correct, but will they be able to build the engine if they don't know what it is?

[RonH]

Kickboxing. Well, let's start with that. My knowledge of the intricacies of the art are limited, but there are a few things that are going in your favor with knowing this before starting Tai Chi Quan. First, there's the boxing-ness of the art. While you may not be on you toes a lot during form practice in Tai Chi, there are a few times when you will be on your toes. There are also times that you'll discover over time where you will rock back and forth on your feet (moving from standing on your heels to standing on your toes and then, back to your heels, especially during a fight) to get greater power in your movements. There's also the fact that punches and kicks are still punches and kicks across martial arts. When I started Tai Chi, I started with the Yang short form and in 2 spots, the top of the pelvis is shifted either forward or backward during a front kick, depending on the section you are at. You would know better than me, if that is covered in kickboxing, but if it is, that is one of those little details that you'd already have covered.

Another thing I've noticed a lot of martial artists and boxers do, especially in Ultimate Fighting and it sticks out like a soar thumb everytime. It's something that happens 99.99 ad infinitum % of the time I see a match up. Many fighters stick their elbows out., Like in basketball, the elbow shouldn't stick out when you do straight jabs. The other guy can see what you're gonna do and can block it easily. The same goes for kicks. They'll want to do a frontal kick and it just swings out before coming back in. When you wanna sweep a leg or arm, that's fine, but not always. I don't know how much your elbow sticks out, but the keeping it in for Tai Chi is good. The degree you'd have to shift your arm from having your hands in front of your face to actually being parallel with the face to minimize how far it's out is not that much I've seen when fighters do a straight punch and twist their upper bodies to the side and your elbow is gonna stick out a little because you're reducing the width of your upper body that's being seen, but I've seen people twist their upper bodies and still stick their elbow out, almost like they were gonna hit somebody beside them with an elbow. The tacticle value of actually using arms and legs that swing out don't seem that advantageous overall to me.

Again, I don't know how you perform kickboxing, but these are a couple things that are to be careful of, even when you're starting a new system. Your body has to adjust to the different pace/body directions and one or another of these can crop up.

There's also something else that should be kept in mind when doing Tai Chi. Your body knows what to do and how to move. Take a look at the newborn baby. Seriously. Physiologically, there are some hardened bones, but there are also some soft tissues that's gonna turn into hardened tissue, while others stay soft. As the babe grows and it's starting to learn how to move, you see if flop around. That's what Tai Chi takes advantage of. The body's natural floppiness. When we get older, we often don't try to retain the floppiness, so our muscle and connective tissue loose their floppiness by tightening up and we loose the full possible range that we are built with. During your stint learning kickboxing, you must have done arm and leg stretches and found out that it's these tissues that are the real limiter of our range of movement (aside from certain structure limitation of bones and such). And you found the more you stretched, the greater your range was. When you see these kids that have been trained in MA since they were like 3 and can do flips and are like little Spider-Men, they kept much of their range of motion of very tiny children and will keep it, if they keep up with the stretches (though I'm not one to start training kids so young).

Your body knows what it should do and its limitations. When we grow up and are taught to walk, it helps up to develop and move differently, but we often forget that we have all this other range of movements and start to loose it over time, a lot of the time fogetting we had the range before. The thing to remember is that while Tai Chi is able to adapt to any variety of limitations people have when they first start out with it, their bodies will adapt to Tai Chi and you become more like what Tai Chi says your range should be, which is the range your body structure says you can have. The movements's loosening you up will make your body want to have that range you had when you were a babe and will adapt to that way more and more until you reach the limit your underlying structure dictates or you die, which ever comes first.

But, because your body knows what it wants and will adapt to get it, you need to increase your perception of the signals that your body sends to your brain. You said that you've had other fighting experience besides kickboxing, so you may have had some training in this. The greater you can increase you intutition, the better, so, if you wanted to study Tai Chi alone or not, I would also suggest that you also study Kundalini Yoga. There's a website online (++++kundaliniyoga.org/classes.html) that's good.

[RonH]

There are some people that say that doing kundalini exercises can be bad, if you don't have much experience, I've never viewed it to be that dangerous. Of course, I had been doing energy work for years before I started kundalini, but this is where you should listen to your instincts. But, my instincts say you specifically should be fine, as long as you're careful and listen to your instincts. I push myself, like someone would do with doing a few more reps in the gym, but there's still some listening I do. There are days where I don't want to do any training, so I don't or I'll just do it for about 15 seconds and then, stop. But, pushing may not be what's good for you. Again, instincts.

How much of a details person you are will also be a factor in how well you do on your own. When I had started Tai Chi, my gifted intelligence actually had presented itself fully until about the last year of college (which was about 3 years before I started Tai Chi), which is just so wrong and it wasn't the kind where you can learn all of one subject quickly. It was where you learn smaller amounts of dozens of different subjects in an extremly short amount of time. Also, I had always been very intuitive since I was a newborn. Every day of class, my profe'd show me another move and I'd be right there asking everything from foot placement to hip twists/rotation and when he answered, I'd shoot off 6 other questions for each thing he said and I just sky rocketed from it. Eventually, every advancement my instincts told me was really the next step in my form's progression. It got to the point where I could very easily mooch off of any system and other things, like gymnastics, ice skating, etc. that I stopped going to classes.

Not just because of the price and time, but because the continued evidence that my acceleration was actually being slowed down by having to go to class. I had reached a high level of "intermediate" skill level in about 6 months and I wanted more. I was a machine. The body knows where it needs to get to and going to classes made me feel like I was being stifled, almost like a physical pain. It was weird. My instructor was good. My instincts told me from the beginning that he was alright, but looking back, the dude was awesome, but it just wasn't for me anymore.

Going to one-on-one classes gives you access to information that you wouldn't have to worry about developing becuase it has been developed and they know it, but while you do adapt to Tai Chi, you'll still get a personalized form, as I'd imagine it would be with kickboxing. The guy was good in being careful, but I wanted more and wanted to set my own timetable for learning because I knew my instincts and what I could do better than him. I understand him wanting to be careful because of the responsibility issue, but I still had a better idea of what I could handle.

So, I went off on my own and it's lead to lots of other things that showed much more than what I would have learned from just being in the class. I'm also strongly independent and have a tailblazer personailty and bucking the system as much as a I can to make it as much a personlized thing is where my mind is most comfortable.

What you can also do is learn about how other styles that can be incorporated into Tai Chi. Since punches and kicks are still punches and kicks, the differences between the arts is more philosophical. Akido is a good choice. Much of the experience you learn from people on how to do something can very easily be written down into a book an inch or two thick (at least, the wisdom that can be put into words), so learning forms that specialize more towards something else and taking all that information and putting it together for what works for you is the best practice. There are many books out there that have the wisdom, which can be figured out by reading reviews or going to book stores that let you read them right there. Trusting your instincts on the books you choose is a good way to develop your instincts. You'll stumble here and there with your instincts, but they'll be more reliable later.

There are other forms, such as Shaolin Kempo Karate that cover a wide range of things, but a mixture of learning the wisdom of specilized and complex forms gives you a good batch to mix and match from. Fred Villari's school does offer a video course that you learn from and then, tape yourself and send it in for grading and critique. But, if you choose this or any other mixed martial art, studying specialized forms that focus on a smaller range of things, lets you pick up on things from people that focus more on this and when you collect and mix and match what you've gotten, you can get something that works better for you.

And, there is a very good chance that you will come up with something that no one else came up with. Those I'd say you should write down/record on video/photos and study them. If you can expand on them, do it. You might even come up with your own specialized version of something that'll take the MA community by storm. Then, comes endorsements, groupies, fame...if that's what you want, which isn't a bad thing. Positive energy is contagious.