Lies, Deceit & Frauds Know no shame or boundries...

[jmd161]

I'm a TCMA fanatic. I've spent around half my life in martial arts with the majority within TCMA. My style of choice is Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun~bka~ Black Tiger. I've posted many a thread and post on this forum and others to help people learn and understand Black Tiger. I've pretty much went against my sifu's wishes in doing so, i might add. Black Tiger has always been underground and pretty much looks like it's going to remain that way.

I wanted people to see what a style that has remained pretty much close to it's roots looks like. In doing so i knew that frauds would begin to pop up here and their claimng Black Tiger. I even watched as a website updated itself after each black tiger post i made on forums. I posted video of Black Tiger forms and pics of rare items like our chinese Wooden Handcuff form and The Black Tiger Nined Armed grinder Dummy. I spoke of Black Tiger training and conditioning drills all while my sifu prefered me not to do so. In posting all that info as long as it was not used to defraud the public or my sifu or sigung, i didn't mind what people stole or used.

But this here is clearly the most blantant theft and use of black Tiger info i've posted on the net. Down below are two links. The first link is to the thread i started here and at other forums about "Information On Black Tiger style" It was copied from another thread posted on another forum by a Black Tiger brother of mine.

The second link is from a website by a guy in England that claims to have not only learned Black Tiger, but from my sigung in Hong Kong, and now claims he teaches it in England.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/3309-information-black-tiger-style.html

http://ukitnow.04.websecurestores.com/KungFu/Origins/tabid/87/Default.aspx

Notice, not only did he repost the writing, but he did so verbatim. :rolleyes:

How low will these people stoop to deceive others? :eek:


First off, Wong Cheung had never before the mid-late 70's taught nothing but Chinese students. Those students that he did give instruction to in the mid-late 70's were students of one of Wong Cheung's disciples, that had been teaching in America at a College while he studied there. So for this guy to say he learned from Wong Cheung in Hong Kong from the 40's-50's is a complete fabrication. Also, those students that Wong Cheung did teach for a short time in the mid-late 70's, were all given certificates, so the names are easy to substantiate.


This guy claims to have learned from Wong Cheung in Hong Kong from the 40's-50's. By the 40's Wong Cheung had already moved to the old train station in Kowloon, so his claims don't add up at all. I hate to say, it's people like this guy that have led me to decide to no longer share Black Tiger info on the net. So i will be taking down all vids and info and not putting up new vids or info i had to share within forums. It is one thing to try and defraud the public, but to do so using my sigung's or sifu's name, is something i will not be a participant to.


jeff :)

[Green Cloud]

hey don't be so hasty jeff I haven't seen any of your vids although I get your point.

[jmd161]

hey don't be so hasty jeff I haven't seen any of your vids although I get your point.


well, they're still up for now and on this forum, so if you want to see them? I suggest you check the Southern section for Black Tiger vids, because i will be removing them within a few days.


yea it sucks how people will use your lineage or name to try and fool others.


jeff:)

[Blacktiger]

Thats bad :eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

I am not intending to create an argument and I mean this in a constructive manner not as an attempt to insult or denigrate.

This is a BB and anyone can post anything they want. Why are we to believe you and not him? Once someone posts something you don’t like you want to run and hide instead of dealing with the problem you created!

If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is. Perhaps there are things you don’t know or information some others have forgotten that explains the discrepancy. We don’t know that!

While personally I appreciate that you have posted your information and I do not believe anyone should have any reason to hide their art if they truly believe it is of value, your Sifu has asked you not to post the information and you did it anyway. This was disrespectful and is your error. Now you will only compound your error by hiding what you believe is the true expression of your art. The general public will now perceive what you consider a fallacious expression of your art as the true expression because there is no longer an answer to it. The charlatans will have no competition and the innocent will suffer for your errors of judgment by your insistence to remove TRUE information from the public view. If you had not disobeyed your instructor in the first place you and your art might not be in this position, but now that you are in this predicament you owe it to your art and to the public to continue to provide factual information to counter what you see as erroneous information. Empty criticism is inherently meaningless because as I previously stated the average Joe doesn’t know who to believe!

If your original intention was to inform the public of the uniqueness of your art for the benefit of the public then your intentions were good, if you intended to boast about your art than your intentions were selfish. If you truly believe the world would benefit from the sharing of your art before, then to take it down now because of a few bad apples is irresponsible. You punish the many for the sins of the few! You shouldn't hide your head in the sand because a few people have taken advantage of your good intentions. The world is full of charlatans. You can look at your glass as half full or half empty. The half full perspective says your art is so valuable or interesting, etc. that there are people out there actually trying to make money off the name! This is a sign of distinction!

If you feel that is necessary to reveal the charlatans for whom they are then I encourage you to follow your principles, but I see it as a losing proposition to hide correct information now. You must continue to provide what you consider to be factual information, not just diatribes. Anyone can criticize others, but not everyone has the true facts. If you have the true facts you must provide them for the benefit of your art and the benefit of the public as well. Then let the public decide for themselves.

Keep in mind he can call his art anything he wants until your organization registers the name as a trademark. If he is lying about his history there is not much you can do other than say it is false. You CAN take any skill sets he provides and compare them to the actual skill sets taught. If you criticize without any proof then it is your word against his and your credibility will only be strong to those to whom you have already established credibility and will mean nothing to those who do not know you and vise versa for him or anyone else.

I say, “So what??”, if someone else is trying to get a pay off stealing (borrowing?) from your art. There will always be those who will take advantage and steal (borrow) from others. Do you think this is the only time it has ever happened in the history of man? If the credibility of your art is damaged by charlatan then it didn’t have much credibility to begin with since stealing from others is as old as man and quite rampant in the MA from the beginning! Credibility comes from the people practicing the art, not the art itself.

How many expressions are there of any art? Tai Chi? Aikido? Jujutsu? Karate? No one owns the market on anything. It is all up for grabs. Your responsibility now is to defend your art not hide it because someone has taken advantage or your good intentions!

[Brad]

If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is.
Well, this particular page gives info into 2005 while the original post in dragon's list was written in 2002.

[Brad]

Also, someone who apears to be from this "Sil Lum Kune" schools recently posted on another forum how his school recently discovered their "long lost" black tiger past. I didn't put one and one together immediately, but I doubt it's coincidence that this page and student who are both located in the U.K. just happened to show up at about the same time ;)

[David Jamieson]

lol!

Jeff, that totally sux, but at the same time, you gotta go wtf? and laugh a little.

drop him a line, tell him what's what and move on I guess.

He's not the first and won't be the last to glean from others that which he hasn't earned or learned.

Surprisingly, this is all to common. Im not certain what it is with the lineage ho's who chase after other peoples histories or try to tie themselves to something that never was. there is something wrong with their minds probably.

maybe not enough of dadddy taking em fishing and too much mommy rejecting them makes them do this. They'll never know until they deal with their own demons and for the most part, people like that will never ever glimpse on who they really are and will forever remains in a haze of famtasy that shields them from their confusion and otherwise horribly dull and boring life. :p

poor sods.

[Royal Dragon]

We have the same problem in Tai Tzu. I know one player who want to put TONES of authentic Tai Tzu material on a site, but hasn't as of yet, and I find myslf hoping he doesn't because I fear a specific well known fraud may steal it and start acting like it was his all a long.

[SPJ]

"Paper may not cover the fire."

"True gold will stand the trial of the fire."

If you are in a particular style long enough, you would pretty much know who is who.

The trickery will not hold up over time.

If you quote some text, be nice to mention the source where moves or classics are from. It will only increase your credibility.

Chinese have the other extremes. If you say you have some thing from yourself, people would say ya ya and yawn, yawn.

Instead, you say so and so because some well known person also said so and so. You have the attentions right away.

----

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Brad,

Thank you for the dates.

Imagine this as a possible scenario:

15 Year Old Well Meaning Student: Hey Sifu! I found some good info on the founder of our system! We should put it on our website!

Internet Naive Sifu: Great! Do it!!

Well Meaning Student: Ok! Done!!!

Everyone is oblivious they have offended anyone or that the information is improperly cited.

Angry e-mails follow!

Internet Naïve Sifu has no idea what happened or why, has no idea he had offended anyone or how this internet thing works. In fact he rarely views the website because responsibility is delegated to 15 Year Old Well Meaning Student.

Bad feelings create bad feelings and now everyone is upset and no one is quite sure how to resolve the situation because no one can communicate without anger.
_____

It could be considered an honor to have someone use your words on their website. Since many people have not been to the university they may not understand that it is necessary to credit sources. I just think it may be premature to presume dishonest intent. My brother-in-law’s father says: “Do not attribute to evil intent what can be explained by incompetence!”

[Brad]

15 Year Old Well Meaning Student: Hey Sifu! I found some good info on the founder of our system! We should put it on our website!

Internet Naive Sifu: Great! Do it!!

Well Meaning Student: Ok! Done!!!
I find that scenario highly unlikely. Here's the link to the thread I was talking about so you can see where myself (and a couple others) might be coming from: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52127

As you can see it's not just him finding new info on the styles founder... it's his school supposedly just now finding out that they do black tiger kungfu even changing the name to fit their newly discovered lineage.

You combine that with the fact that Jeff isn't the first person to have a problem with the guy, and it's not too hard to see that the problem is most likely more than just an computer illiteriate sifu and his well meaning but uneducated hypothetical student.

Of course either way Jeff should email them (and if he doesn't get a reply, call them directly) and let them know they are using his words and info without permission which is illegal.

[ninthdrunk]

Why didn't you listen to your sifu?

Are you sure that this guy didn't train with said master? It's not completely unlikely that a master trained someone else that your sifu doesn't know about, is it? Perhaps while this other student was away at school, like you said?

I don't know...it is crappy that this dude swiped your info and now plays it off as his own. But, ultimately I have to say it's your fault. Why didn't you listen to your sifu's advice...his instructions?

[Brad]

Probably should respect your sifu's wishes (unless you're on your own now). Of course keeping all your info secret and private isn't going to stop frauds, while making it public can make it easier to catch them once in awhile. Asuming for a sec it's not a big crazy misunderstanding (like Scott's proposed scenario) Jeff's public sharing of info may have inadvertantly helped a few people see a dishonest sifu for what he is. It's better to have both the real and fake people out in the public rather than just the fakes :p

[GeneChing]

I've actually had people submit articles (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php)to me that were plagiarized from things I wrote years ago. It's really funny because I'll be reading them and think, man, does that sound familiar. At first, it used to really **** me off. I've seen other writers cop ideas directly from material I wrote published in other magazines and that's just irksome. But then, I realized it was flattering that they lacked so much confidence in their own stuff, or were so impressed by my stuff, or simply didn't have their own stuff, that led them to steall my stuff. It's always annoying dealing with thieves, but eventually I grew to take it as a compliment. At least you have something worth stealing. Personally, I don't think you're established as a martial artist until someone steals from you (but perhaps that's just me justifying). Anyway, welcome to the club.

BTW, the last time we did anything on Black Tiger was in our
March April 2001 Animal style special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=259). See The Rare Black Tiger Style: The Black Tiger Clan, Huk Fu Moon, and Hong Kong Grandmaster, Wong Cheung By Wayne Carisi

[Scott R. Brown]

I find that scenario highly unlikely. Here's the link to the thread I was talking about so you can see where myself (and a couple others) might be coming from: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52127

As you can see it's not just him finding new info on the styles founder... it's his school supposedly just now finding out that they do black tiger kungfu even changing the name to fit their newly discovered lineage.

You combine that with the fact that Jeff isn't the first person to have a problem with the guy, and it's not too hard to see that the problem is most likely more than just an computer illiteriate sifu and his well meaning but uneducated hypothetical student.

Of course either way Jeff should email them (and if he doesn't get a reply, call them directly) and let them know they are using his words and info without permission which is illegal.

Hi Brad,

You have given some sound advice for Jeff!

The Instructor of the first style I trained in and earned my Black Belt in trained under Ark Wong of L.A.s' China Town. In the late 70's a friend and I went to meet Ark and he didn't remember my Instructor. It had been 15 or so years since he had trained with Ark.

[David Jamieson]

map is rife with the ghey.

it hurts to read those forums.

[FuXnDajenariht]

dont feel bad about promoting your art jeff. you shouldn't be held accountable for frauds like that. every legitimate style has to deal with them. dont get jaded over it either. if everyone felt the need to keep their arts in the dark for fear of plagiarism then we wouldn't know even half of what we do about CMA today. i think most people here will agree that thankfully that isn't the case.

i think your doing a good thing personally and years from now some kid studying it will hafta thank you for introducing it to a wider audience though they may not know it. i see why some teachers have that closed door mentality but you can get around that. eventually people will learn to tell the real from the fake the more you and people like you teach them. :D

[David Jamieson]

lol at the guy's site.

There's a lot of pictures from Black Tiger Pai of students training in the train yard and on the rooftops.

Curious how the englishman doesn't have one single photo fo himself with Master Wong. But he does have plenty of pictures of a kempo group or two...in england...:rolleyes:

he hasn't changed his site yet.

lol.

[tug]

"Sifu Paul Burkinshaw began his martial arts career in 1986, and was awarded
his Black Sash grade in 1990 from Master John Holden."

Possible for 4 years of study? I guess it depends on the art.

"The Sil Lum Kune system was then endorsed by the B.C.C.M.A (British Council for Chinese Martial Arts) as regards to the authenticity of Kung Fu being taught in
early 1999 after a full assessment of our syllabus and training practices."

Is this verified? Is the BCCMA valid?

Lastly, are the people in the pictures known to be reputable? Honestly, I've never heard of this style that is being discussed, but it looks to me, from the quality of the images and from general assessment, that someone somewhere has to have more documentation than has been presented.

Disclaimer - not flaming, not claiming to know all. Just definitely interested in the conversation.

TuG.

[paulb]

Hi Jeff,
Sorry for the late reply, but I have only just been informed by one of my students today (Thurs 22/6/06) of your accusations.

My name is Paul Burkinshaw, and I have studied Sil Lum Kune (Shaolin Fist) since 1986. Prior to 1982 the style was called Shaolin Tiger Ripping, which was introduced to the UK by Bob Johnson in the late 1950’s.
The style was a mix of some Black Tiger with bits and bobs of other Chinese Martial Arts added. I was not aware of this until several months ago. All I knew is that Bob Johnson learnt from a master Wong in Hong Kong, and then my Sifu changed things around and added other bits from other styles he had studied in 82 to form the Shaolin Fist Style he did.
I am on the Governing Body for Chinese Martial Arts here in the UK and because of recent changes in competitions, all traditional groups were asked to provide details of their lineages.

I then went to my Sifu and Sigung (who are now retired) to find out fuller details. After much research this then led to Master Wong Cheung. (It appears that the previous instructors didn’t want to be understudies to others, but at the top themselves. It has taken me 20 years to finally be told the truth.) I therefore then contacted Eric Tsai (Hong Kong president) and Jerry (Victor) Davis (American president) of the Black Tiger Association. Eric asked for details of Bob Johnson and then talked to several of his colleges who were around at that time. The story was confirmed and I was invited into their association. I am in the process of studying under Eric and learning Black Tiger from him.

1. I have not claimed to teach Black Tiger.

2. Jerry informed me that he wrote the history of Master Wong Cheung and said I could use it.

3. I have not mentioned anything about Black Tiger on my website apart from adding Master Wong’s history. (with permission of Jerry and Eric)

4. My clubs name etc has not changed. As of yet, all I have done regarding Black Tiger is to talk about possible options in the future with my assistant instructors.

Wouldn’t it of been much easier and politer to have contacted me direct instead of branding me a deceitful liar and fraud. (My email address is on the wedsite)

I look forward to your reply,
Regards
Paul

[Master Sinha]

It's safe to say that Convicted liar, and admitted defrauder of Saint Jude's cancer charity, David A. Ross was terrified when he first clicked on this thread.

Hell, he had the other "training for a fight" thread deleted when he got exposed on it over, and over, and over and over.

By Master Sinha

[Green Cloud]

Lineage stealing is common that's why you got to be very careful when you put your stuff out there. I don't know how many guys have claimed lineage under my sifu. The funny thing is most of those guys suck and can't even fake CTS's Kung Fu.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Master Sinha scares me EEEEK:eek:

[lkfmdc]

Gus, as a dear Hing-Dai, I'm going to share with you the most important secret of the internet (click the attachment)

[Banjos_dad]

Master Sinha, crazy well composed video documentary in the sigtag lmao!
a lesson on the downside of an internet presence.... lol

[Green Cloud]

Gus, as a dear Hing-Dai, I'm going to share with you the most important secret of the internet (click the attachment)

Yea I know it's just that he came out of no where like a stalker. I wasn't expecting him to be there since the thread has nothing to do with your fight he scared me for real.:eek:

[jmd161]

BTW, the last time we did anything on Black Tiger was in our
March April 2001 Animal style special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=259). See The Rare Black Tiger Style: The Black Tiger Clan, Huk Fu Moon, and Hong Kong Grandmaster, Wong Cheung By Wayne Carisi

Yea, Wayne is my sihing.


It was actually that article and a meeting with Joe Keit that helped me contact Wayne, who in turn gave me info to contact sifu. I've been training with sifu ever since.

jeff:)

[jmd161]

In the last couple of days i've spoken to Paul Burkinshaw through a couple of emails. Infact the post he made above was the actual 1st email he sent me. He has been in contact with two Blk Tiger brothers Eric Tsai in Hong kong and Jerry Davis in Texas. Based on his conversations with eric he said that eric has been able to confirm his sigung's training with Wong Cheung.

I did not speak with eric to confirm this, but rather took paul's word of mouth that he and eric have discussed this matter. I told paul that my sifu does not know his sigung or of anyother non chinese that ever trained with Wong Cheung in Hong Kong, other than a group of students that traveled to Hong kong with their sifu, that included Jerry Davis. But if he were now training with Eric Tsai ,then he does have a direct connection to our lineage.


As far as the Hong Kong and American chapters of "The Black Tiger Assocation" That is something that has come about recently and my sifu chose not to be a part of it. I won't go into details of why because that is neither here nor there. Since Paul is now training with Eric i will look upon him as a brother within Hak Fu Mun. As i told him, he is welcomed anytime he's in the U.S. to meet with us and sifu (Fred Woo).


Jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

My training partner, who was introduced to me by Jeff about 4 years ago or so is a member in good standing with the Black Tiger Association of Hong Kong and continues his study and practice of Wong Cheung's Sil Lum Black Tiger system as well as additional materials.

By his recollection, it concurs with what Jeff is saying, inasmuch as prior to quite recently there were zero non-chinese who learned from Sifu Wong in the train yard or the rooftops where he taught. Now that Master Wong has passed, it is likely safe to say that he never taught any non-chinese a complete course of his kungfu and it has been his 1st and 2nd generation students who have begun to do this.

The association now is rebuilding itself and spreading the teachings that have been reserved by the direct students of Sifu Wong.

Non chinese students of this style are not exactly what i would call common from what I understand. I certainly haven't heard any mention of a UK group at all and definitely not as far back as is claimed.

Just sayin.

[jmd161]

Hey Dave,


By the way, i'm back in New York again....lol:D




jeff:)

[GeneChing]

Sorry Jeff. It now falls upon me to formally blackball you from the "plaguerized in the martial arts" club (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673009&postcount=16). ;)

I'm delighted to learn that an article we published helped you find your style. I'm also delighted to find that our forum has helped you find another brother. We can all use more brothers. It's very gratifying for me personally when our work helps people progress in their martial journeys. Doing this is my own unwritten mission statement.

Hope you're subscribed. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)

[jmd161]

Sorry Jeff. It now falls upon me to formally blackball you from the "plaguerized in the martial arts" club (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673009&postcount=16). ;)

I'm delighted to learn that an article we published helped you find your style. I'm also delighted to find that our forum has helped you find another brother. We can all use more brothers. It's very gratifying for me personally when our work helps people progress in their martial journeys. Doing this is my own unwritten mission statement.

Hope you're subscribed. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)


RATS!!!


just when i was finally being noticed for something...:D


Yeah Gene,

I thanked you and Joe many of times on this forum for helping me find my style and sifu. If it had not been for joe showing me that issue with Li Siu Hung on the cover doing Drunken Choy Lay Fut and my reading the article in that issue and the other on Black Tiger. I would have never known that a Master of such a rare style lived within my backyard basicly. Sifu doesn't care for the publicity, but without it i would've never found him.

Wayne and I are trying to get sifu to agree on some more articles, so who knows what wayne might have for you next.;)

jeff:)


You know, i must be the only fool that still buys them off the news stands racks.:confused:

[paulb]

I appreciate what you guys have said.
All I was told which Eric Tsai has checked and confirmed is that:
During the end of the 2nd World War, Bob Johnson was stationed in Hong Kong in the Millitary Police. He withnessed a street fight involving Master Wong Cheung and was so impressed with the way that he handled himself he persauded Master Wong to teach him. I understand that it was on a one to one basis and involved mainly street self-defence with little traditional syllabus such as forms etc. We are talking about the mid to late 40's when things were just getting sorted after the war and Fred Woo wouldn't even have been born yet.
This is all I have been told. Bob Johnson died 10 years ago and I only knew he trained in Hong Kong with a Master Wong until several months ago. It was only then I was finally told the truth and it was a Masetr called Wong Cheung. It was then that I started to dig deeper and found Eric and Jerry.
What is important to me is that I have now found my roots and have since started my education in Black Tiger properly.

[milojai]

:cool: Hi;
New to forum & its great from what I've seen.
Let me say this to this thread as far as the arts.
I have seen the same done in JKD-Kempo-Ninja ect.
I think Bruce Lee had a great Idea that got overlooked.
I wasnt so much to make a new style --Even though he accepted the
Black belt hall of fame award for the style & art Jeet kune do.

This is what my teacher said--We all have 2 arms & legs & punch &
kick the same.Round line--curve lines & straight lines.We can't punch ethnic
nor style.How we use our bodies to get to the same points!Make
each useage different.Now unless we grow 2 more arms & legs we wont have a different art.Now to use our bodies to the max & not lie to our self & claim styles.
To say mine is better or yours is better is to claim my box is better then your box. The arts were meant to unit man.But styles tend to seperate man.
If we unite as a person & say --Here I am as an artist. Then express yourself & how you felt it.
I see -know & understand the dillemas of how most arts have frauds ect.But can't we unite as artists & be the best we can & enjoy the art?:cool:

[jmd161]

I appreciate what you guys have said.
All I was told which Eric Tsai has checked and confirmed is that:
During the end of the 2nd World War, Bob Johnson was stationed in Hong Kong in the Millitary Police. He withnessed a street fight involving Master Wong Cheung and was so impressed with the way that he handled himself he persauded Master Wong to teach him. I understand that it was on a one to one basis and involved mainly street self-defence with little traditional syllabus such as forms etc. We are talking about the mid to late 40's when things were just getting sorted after the war and Fred Woo wouldn't even have been born yet.
This is all I have been told. Bob Johnson died 10 years ago and I only knew he trained in Hong Kong with a Master Wong until several months ago. It was only then I was finally told the truth and it was a Masetr called Wong Cheung. It was then that I started to dig deeper and found Eric and Jerry.
What is important to me is that I have now found my roots and have since started my education in Black Tiger properly.


I could be wrong, but i think the fight you speak of is something that was public knowledge. It is known and documented that Wong Cheung got into a fight with 10 tong members/gangsters on the docks one night. The guys who attacked him were carrying weapons, and the only injury wong Cheung suffered was a broken thumb.:eek:

This is not to discredit your account, but to speak of the fight i believe you're speaking of. It's been written in a few old chinese martial arts magazines as well. I agree that the importance is your seeking of knowledge of Blk Tiger and finding sources to assist your training within Hak Fu Mun. Eric has much info and many of the forms sigung taught. Sigung taught Hak Fu Mun in 1/3 rds , so there is still alot of knowledge out there.

It is only over the last few yrs that sifu has admitted something that many only guessed. He was indeed taught more than a 1/3rd by sigung and taught some that noone else has learned. Sifu trained many hours alone and private with sigung many assumed he learned different stuff and it's just being varified. It is because of this that i wanted a international Hak Fu Mun Assocation to come about and spoke of it with Eric and Jerry. To finally unite the entire style again, but sadly it was not to be. Maybe one day we can try again, because it's a shame to let so much knowledge go to waste. I can never learn all that sifu learned no matter how long i train, and he knows others that are not teaching that have even more bits and parts of the system.

Sigung was not only a Master of Hak Fu Mun, but Hung kuen and Hung Fut as well. Sigung spent over 80yrs of his life dedicated to training kung fu. It is noted that even while carrying on a simple conversation Wong Cheung was always practicing his kung fu. Whether it be sitting in a horse stance while talking or simple hand conditioning drills he was always doing something. Sifu has over 43 yrs of training and teaching knowledge some of which was to both eric's and jerry's sifu's. To this day sifu still refer's to sigung as "My Master" and his eyes light up when he speaks of sigung. There was a very special bond between sifu and sigung, i only wish Eric and Jerry could witness some of that.



jeff:)

[WanderingMonk]

In the last couple of days i've spoken to Paul Burkinshaw through a couple of emails. Infact the post he made above was the actual 1st email he sent me. He has been in contact with two Blk Tiger brothers Eric Tsai in Hong kong and Jerry Davis in Texas. Based on his conversations with eric he said that eric has been able to confirm his sigung's training with Wong Cheung.

I did not speak with eric to confirm this, but rather took paul's word of mouth that he and eric have discussed this matter. I told paul that my sifu does not know his sigung or of anyother non chinese that ever trained with Wong Cheung in Hong Kong, other than a group of students that traveled to Hong kong with their sifu, that included Jerry Davis. But if he were now training with Eric Tsai ,then he does have a direct connection to our lineage.


As far as the Hong Kong and American chapters of "The Black Tiger Assocation" That is something that has come about recently and my sifu chose not to be a part of it. I won't go into details of why because that is neither here nor there. Since Paul is now training with Eric i will look upon him as a brother within Hak Fu Mun. As i told him, he is welcomed anytime he's in the U.S. to meet with us and sifu (Fred Woo).


Jeff:)
Jeff,

Sifu Tsai said that Mr. Burkinshaw is legit. He said he will be sending you an e-mail sometime. I guess it slip through his schedule.

[jmd161]

:cool: Hi;
New to forum & its great from what I've seen.
Let me say this to this thread as far as the arts.
I have seen the same done in JKD-Kempo-Ninja ect.
I think Bruce Lee had a great Idea that got overlooked.
I wasnt so much to make a new style --Even though he accepted the
Black belt hall of fame award for the style & art Jeet kune do.

This is what my teacher said--We all have 2 arms & legs & punch &
kick the same.Round line--curve lines & straight lines.We can't punch ethnic
nor style.How we use our bodies to get to the same points!Make
each useage different.Now unless we grow 2 more arms & legs we wont have a different art.Now to use our bodies to the max & not lie to our self & claim styles.
To say mine is better or yours is better is to claim my box is better then your box. The arts were meant to unit man.But styles tend to seperate man.
If we unite as a person & say --Here I am as an artist. Then express yourself & how you felt it.
I see -know & understand the dillemas of how most arts have frauds ect.But can't we unite as artists & be the best we can & enjoy the art?:cool:


Nice idea milojai, but to know man is to know that man is human and humans make mistakes. The problem lies when we're too proud to admit that we make mistakes or were wrong. Bitter arguments or politics soon raise their ugly heads and seperate things even futher. Humans what can you do?


Jeff:)

[jmd161]

Jeff,

Sifu Tsai said that Mr. Burkinshaw is legit. He said he will be sending you an e-mail sometime. I guess it slip through his schedule.


WanderingMonk,


If Eric or Jerry say they're going to do something, the one thing i don't have to do is worry about them doing it. Eric is a very busy man and sometimes takes a bit of time to respond, but he always does.

Like i stated before i reconise paul as a fellow Blk Tiger Clan brother since he has sought out eric and trains with him. I see david as the same since he trains with Stanley Ho. It's the same lineage, so i look upon them as brothers no matter how long they've trained.

jeff:)

[Wong Ying Home]

Check your pm !

[latta]

Hi, Posters,

My name is Jerry Davis. I am the American president of The Black Tiger Martial Arts Association. Eric Tsai is the president of the other branch in Hong Kong and maintains our web site at:

www.black-tiger.net

My lineage in Black Tiger is:

Wong Cheung --------} Wu Man Hoi --------} Me.

My instructor studied personally under Grandmaster Wong for 12 years, 4 hours a day, every day. I myself have studied Black Tiger since 1973, although I doubt I will ever be half the martial artist of my predecessors.

Grandmaster Wong taught mostly one-on-one throughout his long life. Therefore, many people trained under the grandmaster over the years. Each was trained in a way the grandmaster felt conducive to their own circumstances, needs, and abilities. He rarely taught groups in the conventional classroom setting.

Eric Tsai and myself are the only people authorized to speak on behalf of our organization, The Black Tiger Martial Arts Association. Therefore, to anyone who might have questions or interest in this system, I would recommend that you correspond with us directly. Eric can be reached at his web site. I can be reached by PM at this board, or one can e-mail me directly at:

cusmhot@yahoo.com

My snail mail address is:

Jerry Davis
P.O. Box 31234
El Paso, Texas 79931

Regards to all.

[David Jamieson]

Hi.

Jerry, is that link right?
There is no references to sifu Wong at that .net site you posted.

[latta]

The correct link is the one Jeff posts at the bottom of his messages, e.g.:

www.black-tiger.org

Eric Tsai maintains this web site.

Sorry.....

[David Jamieson]

ah.

well it happens. :p

[husto]

I am not intending to create an argument and I mean this in a constructive manner not as an attempt to insult or denigrate.

This is a BB and anyone can post anything they want. Why are we to believe you and not him? Once someone posts something you don’t like you want to run and hide instead of dealing with the problem you created!

If you are the originator of the information then his error is he does not credit you. I have seen none of his art and none of yours so who are we to believe? My point is, to us average laymen, you could just as easily be lying as he is. Perhaps there are things you don’t know or information some others have forgotten that explains the discrepancy. We don’t know that!

While personally I appreciate that you have posted your information and I do not believe anyone should have any reason to hide their art if they truly believe it is of value, your Sifu has asked you not to post the information and you did it anyway. This was disrespectful and is your error. Now you will only compound your error by hiding what you believe is the true expression of your art. The general public will now perceive what you consider a fallacious expression of your art as the true expression because there is no longer an answer to it. The charlatans will have no competition and the innocent will suffer for your errors of judgment by your insistence to remove TRUE information from the public view. If you had not disobeyed your instructor in the first place you and your art might not be in this position, but now that you are in this predicament you owe it to your art and to the public to continue to provide factual information to counter what you see as erroneous information. Empty criticism is inherently meaningless because as I previously stated the average Joe doesn’t know who to believe!

If your original intention was to inform the public of the uniqueness of your art for the benefit of the public then your intentions were good, if you intended to boast about your art than your intentions were selfish. If you truly believe the world would benefit from the sharing of your art before, then to take it down now because of a few bad apples is irresponsible. You punish the many for the sins of the few! You shouldn't hide your head in the sand because a few people have taken advantage of your good intentions. The world is full of charlatans. You can look at your glass as half full or half empty. The half full perspective says your art is so valuable or interesting, etc. that there are people out there actually trying to make money off the name! This is a sign of distinction!

If you feel that is necessary to reveal the charlatans for whom they are then I encourage you to follow your principles, but I see it as a losing proposition to hide correct information now. You must continue to provide what you consider to be factual information, not just diatribes. Anyone can criticize others, but not everyone has the true facts. If you have the true facts you must provide them for the benefit of your art and the benefit of the public as well. Then let the public decide for themselves.

Keep in mind he can call his art anything he wants until your organization registers the name as a trademark. If he is lying about his history there is not much you can do other than say it is false. You CAN take any skill sets he provides and compare them to the actual skill sets taught. If you criticize without any proof then it is your word against his and your credibility will only be strong to those to whom you have already established credibility and will mean nothing to those who do not know you and vise versa for him or anyone else.

I say, “So what??”, if someone else is trying to get a pay off stealing (borrowing?) from your art. There will always be those who will take advantage and steal (borrow) from others. Do you think this is the only time it has ever happened in the history of man? If the credibility of your art is damaged by charlatan then it didn’t have much credibility to begin with since stealing from others is as old as man and quite rampant in the MA from the beginning! Credibility comes from the people practicing the art, not the art itself.

How many expressions are there of any art? Tai Chi? Aikido? Jujutsu? Karate? No one owns the market on anything. It is all up for grabs. Your responsibility now is to defend your art not hide it because someone has taken advantage or your good intentions!

I cannot help myself. I must say it.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Nothing personal. Never heard of you until today. I had the misfortune of dealing with a person who had your way with words. That man could convince you that saving the life of a person hit by a car in traffic was the wrong thing to do. He could convince students that they should let him sleep with their wives. And they did.

Now, the minute I hear that style of speech my hackles go up. I am waiting for the superiority and bull**** to come raining down all over me. I know someone is going to try to convince me that blue is green and black is white. Or that I should let them have sex with my wife.

I know you are a victim and cannot help what you have been turned into. I wish I could have warned you before you were changed.

Have you noticed the similarities between your verbal techniques and the verbal techniques women employ in order to control and possess men? If you haven't, you might learn something if you look into it. You might feel like you are looking in a mirror.

[latta]

What we had here was a slight misunderstanding between students of Grandmaster Wong's Black Tiger system. I believe the issues have been fully resolved. Regards to everyone.