Seeking advice

[Sihing73]

Hello Everyone,

I am posting this to ask the advice of some of the other members on this forum with children. I have a 14 year old son who has always resisted any of my attempts to teach him to fight. I have introduced him to several people I know and respect but he has always shied away from learning Wing Chun or the Pekiti Tirisia.

Lately, there has been a higher incidence of violence in our area and my son is starting to become involved in fights. Just this afternoon I came outside and he was at the end of our block with what looked like three other boys ready to jump him. When I yelled so they knew I was there they all backed off. Of ocurse one of them said something aobut coming back and finishing up. From taking to some of my neighbors it look slike these other kids came by while my son and his friends were playing ball and started with him. Apparently they don't even know him.

My son is really upset about me stepping in. He thinks I should have let him handle it no matter whether he got hurt or not. He is embarassed that I even got involved. There is a bit of tension between us at the moment.

I do not want to distance myself from my son, or any of my other children, but I certainly don't want anything to happen to him either. I also do not want to force him to learn to fight.

So, I am asking for some advice from others with children who may have experienced similar situations. If you would prefer to PM or email me then feel free to do so.

[Matrix]

Hi Dave,

It looks like you have yourself stuck in a bit of a parent trap.

From my experience, Wing Chun is not suitable for a 14 year old. Asking a teenage boy to stand still a do SLT is like asking him to clean his room - painful . ;)
At that age, I believe he needs something more physically active so that he can burn off the excess energy in a positive way.

He's at an age where he's trying to find himself, and getting help from dad is for "little kids" - at least in his mind. I really think he's conflicted about the situation. In one sense he's really happy that you intervened, but on the other, he wants to be his "own man", so he may be saying he's upset, but deep down I'm willing to bet he's not. Also, the fact that you want him to train in WC or PT may mean that he will reject those arts out of hand, just to be different.

I think you need to ask him what he wants to do. Does he have any friends who train in a MA in your area? I had to let my son train TKD, even though I not a big fan myself - yes, I did train in TKD for several years. That's better than nothing, and it does develop some skills.

Just keep the lines of communication open. Let him know that you respect him as a young man, and that you're just doing your job as any father would. You have to cut him a little slack, but not too much. :) You need to be aware and involved, but try and do it from the side lines as much as possible. He needs to know you're there, but wants it to appear as if he's doing it all on his own.

I will tell you that being a parent is a very tough job, but it's worth all the anxious moments. Just keep the postive talk going - even in the face of what appears to be indifference or even hostility. It may seem like he's not paying any attention, but believe me, I'm sure that he is. He's struggling to find himself, as much as you're struggling with the situation. Maybe you can dig back into the old memory banks of your own and remember some of times as a teen when you acted out.

Keep the faith, and best of luck.

[sihing]

Hey Dave,

Regarding teaching Wing Chun to the younger generation, I have to disagree with Bill in his opinion (Sorry Bill). I've taught Wing chun to all kinds of kids (even some with ADD) from the ages 4 and up. Yes, the younger they are the less real WC they will learn but they can mimic up to a point. Regarding you son, aged 14, I think he is at a perfect time to learn the art. He is able to understand more than the younger ones, the concepts behind the art, while still not old enough to have developed any bad habits or thoughts regarding Martial Arts and what it all means. It will teach him somethings (focus, patients, emotional control, determination, etc..as you already know) and also maybe the true meaning behind Kung Fu, besides "deadly" fighting skills. The only problem I can see, is that he has to learn control of himself if and when these skills are needed. They can get one into trouble very fast when used for the wrong reasons or with to much enthusiasm.

James

[Matrix]

Regarding teaching Wing Chun to the younger generation, I have to disagree with Bill in his opinion (Sorry Bill). James,
No problem. We can certainly disagree on this. I think Wu Shu is much better for kids and teens, when it comes to CMA. They seem to like the flashy stuff, but that's a generalization. My comments are based on my own experience with my son, who is now 23, and they seem to correlate somewhat to Dave's situation.

Teaching other people's kids for a couple of hours per week is one thing. Raising your own is quite another. At 14, I would say that most of them would rather listen to any other adult, rather than their own parents. ;)

<edit> Added Later...
My main point is that Dave's son needs to do what he wants (within reason), what you (James) and I think is largely irrelevant. However, I do appreciate your insights as an instructor of young people, it's a different perspective, which I'm sure Dave will find useful.

[viper]

Im adhd nd im 21 now i started learning wc when i was 18. I teach a 8 year old add kid and i find because of the need to be constantly entertained that he loves wc its a matter of structure usually sparring goes a long way and after i let him ask me questions or ill point out that certain techniques he coulda used then ill show him well do them and then spar again it keeps him interested plus the dummy. I find with younger people like pherhaps ur 14 yer old mayb let him fight prove hes a man and then say hey uno u coulda done this type thing n maybe hell get into it esp if u showed him some like wc fight clips in general. Its good u dont shy away from his life but also u gota let him make his own mistakes to a degree and the more u push the more hell step away he will fall in time ahahahahahaha.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Dave,
When I was your son's age, that's when all of my fighting began as well. Maybe it's something at that age that just seems to all happen at once. Not sure but I feel for you.
Once you guys get through this rough patch, maybe try wrestling with him. As a kid, (for me anyways) I didn't want to hear anything my parents had to say, but if I could see it then I would just take it for what it is. So maybe if you guys are just play fighting show him that he can't out wrestle/hustle you kind of thing, and you leave it at 'that's what wing chun taught me' It may pique his interest. One things for sure, you can't force him (not that you were) cause he'll just lash out or ignore you all together.
My daughter is only 14 months so I'll have different problems to work out :confused: (most likely).
The one thing about being a parent is that it's the most selfless job in the world.

Good luck.

J

[AdrianUK]

Sihing73

I sympathise with your position, my eldest is now 21 so I've been through it a bit. I would agree with the let him do his thing advice but I would add that maybe he needs to learn how to de escalate confrontations and avoid them in the first place, hard to tell a 14 year old I know but maybe a "reality" based class would open his eyes to the problems of "sorting if out himself". I know when my son got involved in something around that age he "dealt" with it, then it escalated and got worse. Sorry to sound off but I would rather my upcoming children know how to avoid trouble than fight well.

regards,
Adrian

[Sihing73]

Hello,

First off I want to thank everyone for their input so far. My son, and other children, do know how to take care of themselves, I made it a point to teach them Kali and Silat when they were younger. My son now is a bit embarassed as nobody really fights like that. However, he does admit it works. He is just starting to not want me to interfere and is trying to distance himself from that "kung fu stuff".

My big concern is that today it seems like little things escalate into serious confrontations. There have been several teenagers killed in our area recently and this is what worries me. It used to be you would fight and go about your business. Today if you lose you go get a gun and some friends and come back to settle up.

It is difficult as a parent to let your children be put into dangerous situations and not try to do something about it. However, I think that I will step back a bit and let him handle things his own way for now.

It funny, most people who know me or have attended my classes assume that my son must be very good at fighting. I will freely admit that I do not have the patience to train my own children, I tend to be too hard on them. We have exploed some other programs in the area and perhaps one of them will fit the needs. Right now my son is resistent to doing anything, saying he is able to take care of himself.

Oh, we do wrestle around quite a bit and have a fairly good relationship overall.

[Cobra Commander]

How about introducing your son to Boxing or even Muay Thai? These two sciences/arts are not only "sport" but also can be applied to a real life situation.
I'd say Boxing though, i don't know why but i just feel your son would appreciate boxing at his current age.

On the plus side, if your son ever gets into a situation where there are multiple attackers and his boxing skills don't do the job too well, you can always offer him some SLT Wing Chun knowledge and tips you know. That would be a perfect way for you to introduce Wing Chun to him, just allow him to absorb a good Western Art like boxing for a few years and surprise him with some unknown knowledge Wing Chun provides that boxing doesn't really cover.

BTW, I notice in boxing training there is little to no study on multiple attackers. Wing Chun provides this.
Boxing is still deadly though.

[Tom Kagan]

Move.

There are plenty of places to live where your kid will not be able to get into as much trouble.

[Sihing73]

Move.

There are plenty of places to live where your kid will not be able to get into as much trouble.

Hi Tom,

I am in the process of seeking employment elsewhere in order to move. However, this is not always an option. There are many factors which could be contributing to the conflicts we are xperiencing now. My son is of mixed racial heritage, as are all of my children which I am sure does not amke it easier. I think he also takes after me in some respects as I have been known to stand up to others when it may be more prudent to walk away. I have hopefully mellowed over the years as I rarely get into fights anymore, still, my family is known for not backing down no matter the odds. I think my son may be trying to emulate some of the others in our family by trying to show how tough he can be. He sems to want to prove it on his own terms though.

I have always stressed walking away but his mother and step mom, both being from West Philly ave a different perspective. Living here in South Philly I can understand their views as I have had to deal with a number of ignorant people.

It's funny with some of the members of my family we coud insure nothing happened to him, for the most part, but he does not want us to intervene. Last year there was a gang of young adults hanging on the corner by their school. The police were unable to move them off the corner. At one point they backed a uniformed police officer into his car. I mentioned this to my uncle and he sent some people around to "talk" to them and they have not been on that corner since. Perhaps it was the nice way they were asked to no longer hang around the school or perhaps they decided to move on their own. Either way the problem was solved. My son has made it clear he wants nothing like this done in his case. So I will wait and see what happens.

[Chief Fox]

Listen to your son. It sounds like he's not interested in kung fu. It also sounds like he wants you to let him find things out on his own.

Ask him if he's interested in any martial art and let him pick the school.

Let him know that you are always available if he ever wants to talk and continue to let him know.

There's a strong urge as a parent to protect our kids but at some point we need to let them find their own path. You can still be his guide but you have to trust that you've already pointed him in the right direction.

You need to back off but always be there when he's willing to talk.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Dave...here's my two cents:


1) Let your son come to you (which unfortunately - will probably be after he's been beatin' up once or twice)...He doesn't want to appear to be a "little boy" who needs daddy's protection against the bullies in the neighborhood.

2) Sounds like he may also have some issues with DAD when it comes to asserting himself (ie.- he's afraid of you and therefore wants nothing to do with anything even remotely related to violence when dad's around....or he's afraid he won't measure up to dad's expectations...or God knows what?

3) He may just be a more reticent personality type than yourself.

Furthermore...I agree with Bill about wing chun being hard to teach to youngsters (he's right - SLT can be seriously trying to the patience of many kids/young teenagers.

SO IMPROVISE SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF WING CHUN...that he might find "cool"....

IF AND WHEN HE ASKS.

[Matrix]

It is difficult as a parent to let your children be put into dangerous situations and not try to do something about it. However, I think that I will step back a bit and let him handle things his own way for now. Dave,

You definitely need to say something about it, IMO. Just don't be a dictator, or at least be a benevolent dictator. ;) Your children need to know you're interested in them, and yet they don't want you to interfere. It's a real balancing act.

Talk, even when you think he's ignoring you. He's conflicted right now, but through all of that I believe he needs to know his father is there.
Further to Victor's comment, you can just let him know that you are there to listen and help when he feels the need to do so.

Parenting is tough. You need to be consistent, yet flexible. It's the yin and yang of things.

All the best.

[Edmund]

I say put your foot down.

You don't have to have an argument. Just explain yourself and talk to him.

Firstly kids shouldn't be left to sort things out for themselves.
The behaviour of any minor is the responsibility of the guardian. So if he gets into fights and maliciously hurts someone, you are responsible for his actions. AND if he gets hurt because you decided to let him work it out on his own, it is your fault. So of course you had to intervene.

Sure kids like to be listened to and it's good parenting but that can only extend so far. He can't have complete freedom as a kid because he doesn't have total responsibility for his actions. You can only trust him when he can demonstrate maturity and show that he's not going to get into trouble.

Give him a simple choice.
Either he learns how to defend himself when necessary and doesn't pick fights so that you won't have to worry or you'll be intervening whenever you like in the future.

If he can't fight and he doesn't want you to interfere then he's just going to get beaten up. He's going to be a classic victim of bullying.

You leave kids unsupervised and it's "Lord of the Flies".

[lawrenceofidaho]

I completely agree with Edmund.

[Tom Kagan]

There is always military boarding school.

[stricker]

well i aint a dad or anything so i really cant speak too much on your situation but i think something like judo or amateur boxing is great for kids/teenagers. the sport side of it is very healthy mentally i think. i think its hard to tell kids what to do hell when i was 14 i did the opposite of everything my oldies told me :D and i turned out ok (i hope) but just drop him round a boxing gym one night see how he gets on. also a teenager can handle the rough stuff better than an oldie

[Liddel]

Teaching other people's kids for a couple of hours per week is one thing. Raising your own is quite another.

Matrix makes a good call here... Im 26 and have no inclanation to have kids in the near future but from your sons POV it may seem uninteresting somewhat and thats just it, nothing more.

My Father has been a mechanic for 50 odd years, my grandfather 70 odd yaers and my uncle is a panelbeater for serious sports cars.

Over the years my father has tried to pass on his knowledge of mechanics and cars to me and for the most part i was very uninterested.

Why, im not really sure, i guess it was because i always was surrounded by V8s, ferraris, porches, supercharged cars turbos the list goes on......i was so emersed in it just by being around my father i really had no interest in it and sought outside interests...to be my own man.

Now this may or may not apply to your situation, but on some subconcious level your son may just want to make his own stamp on life.
The difficult part for you is that his well being is at stake here so i really dont envy you, however trust that you have done your best (hopefully) to give him good morals and the ability to think for himself to help him in these situations / confrontations in his own way. Thats parenthood IMO from the outside looking in......

Just to let you know - In my situation now im older wiser (a little), and i see my dad less, im now ALOT more interested to learn his knowledge of cars etc i just became interested over time no other reason......
perhaps you just really need to give him time, hell come around....

Anyway good luck, i feel for you...

PS Tom - you are a crack up man ! Military school - had me in stitches..... :)

[fiamacho]

I say put your foot down.

You don't have to have an argument. Just explain yourself and talk to him.

Firstly kids shouldn't be left to sort things out for themselves.
The behaviour of any minor is the responsibility of the guardian. So if he gets into fights and maliciously hurts someone, you are responsible for his actions. AND if he gets hurt because you decided to let him work it out on his own, it is your fault. So of course you had to intervene.

Sure kids like to be listened to and it's good parenting but that can only extend so far. He can't have complete freedom as a kid because he doesn't have total responsibility for his actions. You can only trust him when he can demonstrate maturity and show that he's not going to get into trouble.

Give him a simple choice.
Either he learns how to defend himself when necessary and doesn't pick fights so that you won't have to worry or you'll be intervening whenever you like in the future.

If he can't fight and he doesn't want you to interfere then he's just going to get beaten up. He's going to be a classic victim of bullying.

You leave kids unsupervised and it's "Lord of the Flies".

This is exactly what I would do.
I started teaching both of my sons Wing Chun when they turned 5 years old, it was a non-negotiable now my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 15. To teach them at such a young age was one of the best decisions I have ever made as a father.

Over the years my sons have been involved in 3 or 4 fights and they were over and done with real quick, a lot of the street fights that they have been involved is usually with other Polynesian boys (we are Samoan), which happens amongst your own race. Sometimes respect can only ever been gained by action as words become useless.

[CFT]

Sometimes respect can only ever been gained by action as words become useless.This is OK if it stays at that level. As Dave has already posted, fists escalate into shootings at a later time and/or date.

Maybe Dave is better off sending his son to a mediation class so that he can learn to diffuse trouble rather than being left with only one option: violence.

He doesn't need to force his son to practice martial arts, but as others have pointed out it is quite right for him to take responsibility for his son's actions and his safety - the problem is getting his son to appreciate that.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I would like to thank everyone who PM'd, emailed me or replied to this thread. I do appreciate everyones input.

My son is not scared of me, he simply finds the MA which I practice as emabaassing because no one really fights like that. He would rather fight like everyone else even if he takes a few licks in doing so.

He and I have spoken regarding my concerns. He is aware that I will do everything in my power to insure he is not hurt but I will step back and let him try to handle things first.

He already knows that I prefer he walk away from a fight and only fight if necesary. However, he is now starting to react to peer pressure and try to prove himself. Living in the city and being of mixed heritage he seems to be getting tested a bit more now than before. Perhaps it is his age and the introduction of girls more and more into his life.

My door is open as well as the doors of my Sifu and others who are more than willing to include him in training, if and when he wishes. He sometimes accompanies me on trips to NYC and White Plains to train and hopefuly he picks up some tidbits even when just watching.

I have given him permission to view any of the tapes, DVD's or books I have relating to combat. I have also offered to enroll him in a Boxing or other class if he so desires.

For now I am going to close this thread with my appreciation for all of those who replied and provided input. If I failed to reply to anyone personally I appolgize.