Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

[neilhytholt]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn't CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn't CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

[Shaolinlueb]

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves :(

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

[neilhytholt]

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves :(

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.

[Golden Arms]

Then go somewhere else...Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

[Fu-Pow]

Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.
.

Absolutely. The forms are so dense with information that just knowing one would be enough. So why so many forms? Personally, I gave up on learning forms about a year ago (27 at last count) and I'm focused more on free sparring and ways to train applications.

Boxers, wrestlers, muy thai you start practicing with a partner from day one. TCMA you spend a lot of time, by yourself, learning forms on forms on forms.

Forms have there place but they are overemphasized to the exclusion of partner training both coreographed and freestyle....and ultimately that's where you're going to learn how to fight.

[SiuHung]

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

The premise of CMA? No.
I gather from your post you've been unable to find a teacher who has the relative experience or desire to train students in the martial aspects. Keep looking...they're out there. Good luck finding that in most martial arts, regardless of ethinic origin.

One word of advice however...If you're looking for dominance in the UFC, i.e. to be a professional fighter, go hang out in an MMA gym. Chances are you will have a very short lived career at it unless you are a natural.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

[Chief Fox]

I see your point. I just left a school that was forms based. But the base of any CMA style is the forms. This doesn't mean that all you practice is the forms. This couldn't be further from the truth. The only way to become a good fighter is to practice drill and spar with another person. My current sifu says all the time that punching air only gets you so far. To make the techniques work you have to drill them.

Boxing, you have to drill the combinations over and over again. Same thing with BJJ, Same with Muay Tai and it should be the same at your kung fu school.

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Also...

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

[tug]

I would just like to say, as I have said before (though not rememberably), every human being has their own singular opinion/belief about life and how they get through it. "Whatever works for you", basically. TCMA or just simply CMA is about forms. We all know this. It is up to the individual to decide which or what style/form/application/mode/hold/attack/defense/responsibility/respect/lineage/history/legend/following/code or actual art is best for them. Having said that, it is my belief that forms are a way of having more than enough than too little. IMO, the idea was to compile an arsenal of moves (all inclusive) instead of just a couple that work. I relate it to "always bring more cable than you need, that way, you aren't stuck when you need more than the inventory stated". Am I making sense here?

All that being said, I am a UGE fan of UFC, Pride, K1 and enjoy immensely the heart (blood, sweat and tears really) of this new age of MMA and NHB fighters.

I am not here to dispute the "betterness" of TMA or MMA, I'm just trying to possibly state that the two are not alike. You say tomahto, I say tomato. Do what you do because you like it and it feels right for you.

I guess IMO these arguments are pointless as we are all different and do EVERYTHING for different reasons.

TuG.

[neilhytholt]

Then go somewhere else...Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

I've been to Chinatown in Seattle (if you can call it Chinatown, it's the smallest one in any major city I've come across), and I know those guys can fight -- that is, the semi homeless guys hanging around outside, lol.

My main point isn't to diss CMA in particular or anything but rather make the observation that the training regime in most places doesn't seem convenient or conducive to creating good fighters. Obviously this won't be popular, I won't post this on here anymore.

[neilhytholt]

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

You are one of the lucky ones, that's for sure.



All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

Right, so you'd expect if the training regime of most CMA schools was as effective as other arts, that the CMA fighters would do better. But this doesn't seem to be the case. Most of the UFC fighters instead seem to be taking boxing/kickboxing/BJJ.

Of course, UFC/Pride/etc. isn't the end all be all of fighting. It's a ring sport. But it is one of the few places where fighters actually seem to be fighting realistically outside the street.

[neilhytholt]

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

It really seems like this is true and a big change seems to have happened in the past 20 years or so. When I took CMA in the '80s, mostly it was techniques, drills, punching, kicking and sparring. Forms were something that you did, but they were just for belt requirements. It wasn't like you started out with forms.

I've been talking to Tai Chi students of Doc Fai Wong (evidently my first sifu studied with Doc Fai Wong) and they've been saying that their tai chi starts out with drills and techniques from day 1. The form is something you study, but it's not necessary to get your feet wet.

Contrast that to the Tai Chi schools with somebody like Yang Jun (the Yang lineage holder), where it's nothing but form work for like a year or more until you get to push-hands, and they seem to teach few fighting aspects ever.

[Hitman]

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
1. All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training. You have to teach the water down techniques to your students inorder to keep them happy. I know a teacher who teaches the traditional way of training in praying mantis. When I was there learning praying mantis years ago, my forearms and shins were black and coverd with bruises after every lesson. The lessons were boring and painfully hurt. We started off with 15 people in the class and end up with 6 people after 1 month training (4 lessons). My ex-teacher was not making any money from his classs. He was doing it out of the love of teaching. He had been doing this for more than 20 years and had taught less than 50 people during this time.
2. Are you willing to get hurt in the UFC? Not many people want to get hurt in a fight. Many people will encourage other people to fight, but they themselves will never enter into any one of the NHB tournament. If you want to see people from CMA to win the UFC, then YOU should enter it yourself. I cannot enter myself in any of the NHB, because my wing chun was very badly taught and I will lose.
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Hitman

[David Jamieson]

vision narrowing...opinion...hardening, get the bat revivifier robin, this stupid ass thread has made itslf a threat to gotham once again.

*Smacks original poster in back of head* You think this is a topic? Troll. lol

Now go read Chuck Liddell's tatoo 1000 times and stuff a bag of spaghetti noodles, uncooked up yer grain chute as penitance for creating such a retarded thread.

[BM2]

If Bruce Lee was around 30 and posting on here many would consider him a troll instead of a free thinker.


If by Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son.

[Ray Pina]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.
Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.


I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.


You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

[neilhytholt]

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery ... it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) .... school (b)s? That makes no sense.


You have a few options:
1) Do something about it .... find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

2) Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

3) Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

Well I was actually planning on quitting CMA period, but after much consideration, I'm thinking of dropping CMA in favor of martial arts styles where they don't do form work.

[Merryprankster]

I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can't do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the "ULTIMATE"? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.


On the other hand....if you can't fight well, those attacks aren't going to do you much good anyway. Good weapons, but without the delivery system, they are not much use.

I know the street is not the ring, but you know what? The kwoon is not the street either. Everybody plays by rules for safety.

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of blind eunuchs with tracheotomies out there...

neilhytholt, here's my take for what it's worth. BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete. They are willing to do the things that that entails. Further, the sportive context within which these combative sports/arts exist is integral to the art itself. What I mean by that is simple: Nobody argues about whether Jason Morris in NY and the SJSU Judo club are good schools. Nobody argues about whether Arizona State and Iowa are good wrestling colleges. Nobody argues over who coached whom...people only argue over which place is BETTER. The standards are clear, and measured against those standards, you know where to go to find top quality instruction. Yes, there are local clubs and hobbyists - some of them quite bad. But if you WANT to find great instruction and compete, you can.

Contrast this with the state of "traditional" MA. The emphasis was never on competition. There are usually a billion different little associations each with their affiliate schools, no standardized rule sets and each with their own world champion. There are constant arguments over what constitutes good instruction, about what the art really is, about who is really a good coach. There are even arguments over who is truly representing the "style" and what that means (heck, look at WT/WC/VT). There are also infinitely more "hobbyists" - guys that show up maybe twice a week, and more informal, less professional schools with odd schedules that only really even meet twice a week or so.

To sum up. Lots of TCMA guys just don't care about competition and the UFC. And that's totally fine. Some of those guys could surely compete and do well. It would require training like a competitor, which they may or may not do. But many of them probably just don't care.

[neilhytholt]

vision narrowing...opinion...hardening, get the bat revivifier robin, this stupid ass thread has made itslf a threat to gotham once again.

*Smacks original poster in back of head* You think this is a topic? Troll. lol

Now go read Chuck Liddell's tatoo 1000 times and stuff a bag of spaghetti noodles, uncooked up yer grain chute as penitance for creating such a retarded thread.

""In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that’s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that’s the logo for my school.""

http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm

Is that the tatoo you were referring to?

[Crushing Fist]

Hackleman says back in the ‘90s other martial artists began calling their style Hawaiian Kenpo, but he is the only instructor to spell his Hawaiian Kempo with an ‘m’. In Japanese, the letters ‘m’ and ‘n’ have the same symbol, so the art can be spelt either way. John has been spelling his art as Kempo since 1985.




say what?


I guess they aren't too up on japanese...


ma mi mu me mo

na ni nu ne no and 'n'




maybe they were thinking of 'l' and 'r'

[David Jamieson]

you train for what you are intending to do.

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.

For showy competitions, they demonstrate forms through the sport fo wu shu.

For in class stuff, they deal with classical pugilism, some up to date, some stuck in antiquity and kept for posterity.

UFC training regimen and many types of Kungfu training regimen simply don't have the same goals in mind.

UFC is specifically geared to getting in a ring and being beaten on, beating on someone else or a mix of both..to a decided finish if a knockout or submission is not obtained by either player.

In Kungfu training, there is focus on total development of a person using the vehicle of not only martial art training, but also the augmentation exercises that get us in touch with who we are and expose our strengths and weaknesses to us in more than just fighting.

There is some similarity, but it ends rather abruptly. there are many who have entered ufc, pride, etc etc etc who come from traditional martial art backgrounds. That background and all that was in it is not washed away when one decides to enter into competitive fighting. It is altered to fit the venue.

Now if someone chooses to disparage either without having experienced both, then they are talking out their ass plain and simple.

the person who has spent all their time in a kwoon and has never done any ufc style training should shut the hell up about it. YOU DO NOT KNOW.

the UFC guy who hasn't spent appropriate time training in classical martial arts should also shut the hell up because YOU DON'T KNOW either.

However, those who have spent enough time with both will, in my experience, invariably find a way to blend them together to get something for themselves that is acceptable on their training path. Comments from these types is valid and generally will be indicative of value in both paths.

for the most part, those that are adamantly against one or the other are almost always speaking from a standpoint of complete ignorance.

just pointing it out.

[Jamesbond_007]

Seriously guys, I can't believe you are missing the obvious one on this one. The reason CMA doesn't dominate the UFC is because CMAers are not taking Xyience.

Once I started taking Xyience I started to kick everyones butt. Also, I can fly now. :)

[PangQuan]

a large problem with cma is not cma. it is the students.

take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.


why? its not up to him to make sure you practice what you learn. he gives you the technique, its up to you whether you train it regularly or not. he makes sure you understand it, is there to answer any future questions, but will not baby sit you.

Now if on your own time, before or after class, or at home or in the park. you can get together with your kung fu brothers, and intensively train this drill. everyday if you feel like it for 10 years. then you are a master with this technique. you have put in the time.

or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

if you suck at fighting, its your fault.

people place too much on the teacher. they cannot work out for you. or put in the hours.

they are a resource. not the skill.

much as one person stated earlier, its more than enough rather than not enough.

there is so much material present you cannot train all of it all the time. you recieve the techniques one at a time, decide what is best for you, keep it and throw out the rest.

thats what forms are. its a catelog so to speak. a library of techniques.

if you go to your "class" and its only 2 hours long, and you do that say 3 days a week. thats 6 hours, out of 168 in the week. if you dont put in the time yourself to correct your shortcommings, thats is entirely on your head.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn't have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.


Umm, it's because most people who teach, not just CMA, but karate, TKD, have never had to defend themselves. I have, I grew in a bad city in the 1960s and had to defend myself everyday to just get to school and back, or go to the store.

Over the past 30 years I have used CMA to defend myself successfully all over the world in sudden situations, and I use what I learned from CMA forms. They worked perfectly every time.

Today, I teach CMA, and I have my students learn a quick short form, such as Wu Bu Quan, and they in one day are indeed able to take each other down from the lessons.

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'. There is no reason that CMA shoudl have to work in the ring at these caged fights you see on tv because those are unnatural events, sports, not self defense. CMA forms are self defense.

Fighting boils down to whoever is luckiest wins, because you have to be:
stronger, faster, younger, more fit, etc, etc than your opponent.

Stopping a fight takes understanding and confidence that the CMA works.
1-CMA only works when you use it to stop a fight.
2- You need to understand that all the moves in a CMA form can be done on many levels, such as punches, kicks, joint locks, and takedowns and throws.
3 - And, you need to understand that all CMA moves in forms are simulataneously offense and defense.
4 - And, you need to understand correct body mechanics.

I have seen these 4 things Lacking in almost all Martial Art instruction from any kind of school during the 30 years I have been doing Martial Arts.

It's when I researched these 4 things about CMA over the last 10 years that I have seen how CMA really works and forms have never let me down ever since.

Sparring teaches people to be stupid, because it is an unnatural situation, it is not self defense. You get bad habits from sparring, because we expect the partner to act a certain way. The person on the street will be unpredictable. Hence, only the confidence (with training) that the moves in the forms you learned are both offense and defense at the same time and each move works against any kind of incoming attack, THEN you are successful in self defense. Sparring does not teach self defense

But, free form partner training does wonders, if all aspects of moves from forms are worked with, and the idea that the moves are simulataneously offense and defense is adhered to.

Because, the foundamental thing about CMA is being taught: to use the moves in a form to stop a fight, not to fight against the incoming attacker.
Incoming energy is redirected so that it traps the attacker to defeat themselves.

CMA forms that are taught correctly, with the correct ideas, works exactly like a bull fighter deals with a raging bull.

If you learn to be a bull fighter via CMA you will always be successful in self defense.

[mantis108]

Education (both civil or martial) was a privilege not a right. One would learn MA either your family can afford the tuition (you've got yourself a teacher) or you are "contracted" (partically sold) to your Sifu; hence, the term master. There was not almost no such a thing as "middle class" learning martial arts for fun (at least not for the working poor) but learning martial arts for vocation.

Compare to Northern American market today this is unimaginable. MA here is one of the many past time activities available for the middle class. This is why we have McDojo and McKwoon all over the place to tailor to the soccer moms who want little Johnny and Jannie to be badysitted while "learning" something. Now many of those kids have grown up and they are now in the MA teaching force. Have these "privileged" kids ever fought for their lives? I will leave that question to you all.

Education ultimately is for improving the quality of life. Now if competition will help you improve your quality of life. Well, by all means more power to you. I guess many of the professional fighters (ie Ali, Graices, Ken Shamrock, et..) are a good examples of that.

As for forms are important to TCMA, well yes and no.

I think someone said that forms are meant for the teachers. I would agree to that. Because forms really do contain a whole lot more information then just fighting techniques. Do you need to know a form to be able to fight? Well, definitely not IMHO. However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms. Can TCMA handle martial sports events, I would say it's possible but first it will have to deal with the "delivery system" as MP pointed out. It would take some readjustments but it's not out of the question IMHO.

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

I believe Bruce Lee wanted to point to the fact that athleticism and the orderly competitive spirit not just any but the phyiscal contact of it was dying in TCMA in general. He also recognized the "delivery system" is FUBAR that's why he proposed to scrap it all and reform. This in my mind is the real "secret" of JKD from an observer point of view.

Personally, I am a firm believer in TCMA values and all but at the same time I am sick and tire of hearing "secret deadly moves" that makes TCMA special. Those moves don't make you a free thinking martial artist but turns you into something like a hunter who carries a rusted shot gun that has never been fired. God knows if that would even fire or back fire on you when you needed it most. Beside, I don't know if it is a blessing walking down the street with the knowledge that any moment (if attacked) you will become a "murderer" because the only option you have is to use some secret deadly moves to maim or kill another person. Now that's a life changing event that I think can be avoided if we learn a better delievery system which can provide more options than to kill, kill, kill. Don't be a slave of secret deadly techniques but be a master of martial arts, my friends.

Mantis108

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

[SevenStar]

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn't require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn't CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn't CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

it's the training methods. MP, ST00, myeslf and others here have been saying that for years. It's like CmA takes longer by design to become proficient at in most cases, as their training is much more segmented and less fighting focused.

[Royal Dragon]

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

Reply]
Start a High school program where your students attack you first so you get the practice in the drills you want first, and then they work them with each other.

Only by teaching what you know, will you be able to practice it, and get good at it.

In all honesty, this is the only reason i am willing to teach.

[SevenStar]

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).


you don't have a choice here, man. any place you train will require to learn their art. your best bet is to either start your own study group or find a club that will let you work out, but not actually be part of the class. The problem there is that you still may not have people to spar with.

[wind draft]

Just for the sake you don't compare it to UFC or MMA, I still think kung fu overemphasis on forms. Recently I realize also that I want to be a better fighter and forms just ain't doing it. I told my Sifu and guess what happened? We did more forms. For some reason people think forms can get you good at fighting.

It seems on here we have a good amount of people who believe that kung fu needs to emphasis more on fighting and two person drills, and more drills.

In our school we do mostly punching air and forms. I'm actually tire of that stuff. I can do that all on my own time. I want to be able to fight. And don't say hang out at MMA gyms. Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing. Anybody????

[SevenStar]

Just for the sake you don't compare it to UFC or MMA, I still think kung fu overemphasis on forms. Recently I realize also that I want to be a better fighter and forms just ain't doing it. I told my Sifu and guess what happened? We did more forms. For some reason people think forms can get you good at fighting.

It seems on here we have a good amount of people who believe that kung fu needs to emphasis more on fighting and two person drills, and more drills.

In our school we do mostly punching air and forms. I'm actually tire of that stuff. I can do that all on my own time. I want to be able to fight. And don't say hang out at MMA gyms. Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing. Anybody????


it may be time to find a new school...

[neilhytholt]

The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

Reply]
Start a High school program where your students attack you first so you get the practice in the drills you want first, and then they work them with each other.

Only by teaching what you know, will you be able to practice it, and get good at it.

In all honesty, this is the only reason i am willing to teach.

That, sir, is the very best idea to come up around here so far. Lots of people to work with, few preconceived notions, and if any of them have outside training in some martial arts or wrestling, so much the better, because then they can launch some decent attacks. Plus, no overhead associated with a school.

Have you ever tried this, though? Do the schools allow sparring? They probably wouldn't want students going home with ouchies. I guess if we dressed everybody up like TKD marshmallow men the injuries should be limited to some bruises and sprained toes, though.

[Chief Fox]

wind draft, your are in what was my exact same situation.

I think a lot of kung fu teachers maybe really don't know the actual applications of the forms so their answer is to just teach more forms. For those of us who want to go deeper the solutions are few and far between.

The truth is, good kung fu schools do exist. Schools where they focus on using the techniques from the forms in actual combat.

Forms are like a library. All of techniques are there. You can just check out a few techniques and read them. Or you can start at the begining and move through the whole library. Whose going to be the better fighter? They guy who is going through the whole library trying to get a piece of everything, or the guy who chooses to focus on just a few volumes in depth?

Maybe a stupid analogy but the library is too big to be an expert in everything, I for one am choosing to focus.

[Royal Dragon]

I have seen that too many times my self.

I personally feel you should have one, or two forms that you thourally master, inside and out. Not just in the air mind you. To me mastering is breaking it down into the two man drills, and learning to fight with the techniques the form contains "In Style".

[_William_]

I am considering switching schools because of the crap attitudes of some of the people in my school, and because I am finding the training methods to be wholly inadequate.

All we do is chi-sao drills... over and over... and this is how the senior students lord over me. Somehow its not okay if I hit them, because I'm a big guy, but they hammer away their shots at me like I'm a dummy? And when I hit them they get all ****y and touchy. And I'm thinking in my head, "God, if you can't take even light contact maybe you guys should take up tiddlywinks or something". For example, one time in chisao I hit someone :p and they just flipped out and started yelling at me. And this was a tap.

And some of the seniors(some... not all) are real **** negative. They want to keep their superiority and feel threatened or something, because I am able to hit them more consistently now? So they slip me little comments when chi-saoing or sparring "No, that won't work in a REAL fight" "Thats too fancy"(When I'm using textbook wing chun) "Too slow, too slow"(How am I NOT supposed to be slow when they discourage contact?)

Sparring is a giant ego exercise at my school. People get their **** emotions into it too much, like if I hit them its a direct affront to their honor or something. Its ****ing unreasonable. And when we spar its virtually noncontact, which KILLS timing.

I've been training there for six years now. Sure, I've picked up some skills. Basics of trapping, jamming, etc. that are the core wing chun syllabus. But to be honest with you guys, I am not sure in my heart if I can FIGHT.

And because the purpose of martial arts is to FIGHT, I feel that my time in the school is redundant. I'm not learning to fight there, I'm just doing cooperative chi sao over and over, where the seniors feed their egos by smacking me all the time while I am trying to hold back.

I am considering joining an MMA gym so I can hone my skills under pressure, and pick up MMA skills as well. But I feel tied to the school I'm at right now, because honestly I consider the sifu and some of the students there to be close friends after several years. But... I'm not learning to fight there. Not sure how to break off , because they tend to take it personally :confused: and I consider them friends.

[mantis108]

This is my question, which is how do you practice TCMA then, if the schools are fubar.

Bruce Lee was an opinionated individual who believed TCMA's methods (on fighting) are not sound. That's his opinion and he could be right in view of the rise of NHB and MMA events. But IMHO he focused on the negative rather than the positive. I don't know much about other TCMA styles but I do know that Northern Praying Mantis is quite practical when it comes to fight training. It's definitely not dry land swimming.


The main problem I have with schools is they require you to train their curriculum, which may or may not be what you want to train. I myself want to train the sparring techniques as taught by my first sifu (now retired), but cannot find any school that will allow me to work on that stuff without learning their curriculum and their forms.

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.


I thought that MMA schools would be the solution but they are not because a) they have a total boxing emphasis (I do not like boxing), and b) they still want me to do stuff their way. (which is boxing and some grappling). I was not taught to fight like a boxer (high stances and literally on my toes).

Well.... fighting is figthing. You sure don't need to train MMA which boxing can be a major component of that. But on the street you would have no choice to fight whatever style (just brawling included) or whom you deem okay to fight. Don't you think, it's better to have those experiences or get to know them anyway? Sometimes, people want you to fight their way is that through their experiences they know what's the safe way to protect yourself from getting injured. All those chin tuck, shoulder raise, etc in boxing is not just about their "form and structure". It is also about protecting yourself from getting serious hurt on the receiving end of a powerful counter combo such as cross-hook. Same thing with break falling and rolling properly in case you got thrown.

In my class, I often have people who claim they have experiences in other styles. I will have them do the same warm up routine that we do and I would observe them if they have the fundamentals (ie shadow boxing, breakfalling, etc) down. I would not have them participate in sparring in my club if they fail to reassure me with their abilities and decline to listen to my advice. I don't want to be responsible for silly injuries that can be avoided. I have students that get tossed by hip throws on carpeted concrete floor durring sparring sessions. So far, no serious injury other than wind got knock out and a lot of pain in the ribcage.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, you have to find places with non-attitude. Like the last karate school I went to, I was sparring some little dude, and I hit him with about 20% force, and he goes, "That was kindof hard. You don't want to hit the female black belts with that kind of force, or they'll get really p*ssed off." ???

Basically the female black belts were all these relatively older women (35+), who had huge attitudes and 0 fighting skills. But they all made some $$$ off of giving private lessons (the instructor had this pyramid scheme going where any black belt could give privates and they both got a cut), so it was a huge ego thing.

But they did a lot of tournaments, so they were relatively okay with contact, except for the women. In fact the tournaments I got hit quite hard, often, and one time to the point my leg stopped working and I had to quit the match. (Ouch).

If you fight people who get hit and blow up, that's just really bad. Those types of people shouldn't be taking martial arts.

Maybe you should find a school that does a lot of tournaments if you want to get any sparring. Of course sparring isn't entirely like real fighting, but it's closer than form work.

[neilhytholt]

May be you could list the sparring techniques and/or format from your former teacher so that we can have an idea whether it is possible to spar with other TCMA schools. BTW, I am curious as to what makes you believe that your former teacher's way is the best way for you? It is your opinion and we respect that but then we need to know the basis of this opinion.

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

[neilhytholt]

Oh, but I should add that even though the MMA folks do what is IMHO useless stuff, obviously it is more useful than 90+% of the schools out there, who seem to not train any fighting at all.

I'm especially tired of going to 'martial arts' schools that teach 'tai chi', but absolutely no fighting aspects of it. If they aren't teaching fighting they shouldn't list themselves as 'martial arts'.

[Knifefighter]

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you're working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it's totally traditional, but not the way it's taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn't produce good fighters.

CMA based on forms = bad fighters
CMA based on same premise as live combative systems = good fighters.


yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves

Same for all the fighters who compete in MMA. They can’t use those moves either. If your style is dependent on those kinds of moves, it is severely lacking.
CMA that relies on pressure points, fish hooks and small joint manipulations = bad fightrs.


plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

No it is not. If anything it is tailored to the standup and striking arts. Fighters are forced to stand up if there is not sufficient action on the ground.




IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that's it.
BINGO!


Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA,

No it didn’t. If it did, it would have significantly more grappling and groundfighting.




I'm really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts?

UFC and other MMA venues are good laboratories and testing grounds.



I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes.

As there are in the street version of BJJ, but this has never stopped these fighters from stepping into the competitive arena.
Relying on roin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes = bad fighters.



All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day's training
If this were true, boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo and BJJ schools would have not students either.


I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery

How are martial arts politically dangerous?




BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete.

True to some extent. But these arts also push the competitive factor. Each of these combative approaches believe that competing makes one significantly better and this approach is engrained in each of these disciplines. Judo goes so far as to base belt promotions on competitions. Many people have no intention to compete when they start, but end up competing because it is part of the culture.



take my sifu for example. one day he will decide to train a certain technique in class. for this case we will use a basic 2 man self defense technique. He will spend the time it takes to make sure everyone that is present learns the technique, understands its application, and how to perform it correctly. Once this process is completed, he will likely not return to this technique for possibly even years.

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.



or you can do what most people do. only train it that one time. develope a very rough understanding of it and then be done with it. at which point, you have decided to waste your time.

I would say the instructor is wasting your time if he is only showing one technique a single time.


However, if you are looking to fight "in style", then you can't go without the forms.

Fighting “in style”??? A good fighter uses what works, not what is “in his style”.
Focusing on fighting "in style" = bad fighters.



Because I want to fight the kung fu way not kickboxing.

Kickboxing is how striking with hands and feet looks in fighting. Just like grappling looks like wrestling, Judo, and BJJ in fighting.




Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

[neilhytholt]

Most MMA fighters are used to getting kneed. That's probably why he freaked... he couldn't understand why you would pull the knee.

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

[David Jamieson]

_william_

your story is a sad one that is echoed in many discussion forums.

suck in a big breath in and go look elsewhere if you are stuck in an ego farm.

It's one thing to deal with when it's your peers, but when your instructors and teachers are full of it still, then you can guarantee yourself that you're not going to learn much from them. they will always deny you progress and always be fluffing their own chests.

[Knifefighter]

And here I thought it was because he thought he was going to get a straight shot right into the face ... ******!

Nah... MMA fighters are used to getting kneed... happens all the time.

[FatherDog]

The reasons why CMA doesn't win the UFC
3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!


Nobody who fights in the UFC trains 7 hours a day. I've trained at Team Quest, my coach has trained with Militech and Jeremy Horn. They're all top level fighters, and they train between 10 and 20 hours a week, tops.

[FatherDog]

Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything

You're full of ****.

[PangQuan]

This is a very flawed method of teaching. Learning techniques well requires many sessions of having the same techniques taught, reviewed and corrected. This is the whole idea of studying with an instructor. It is up to the instructor to develop lesson plans to ensure that the technique is practiced over and over again. That is how learning occurs.


this is not to say how he teaches every technique. this is to display that there are so many techniques available in the chinese martial arts, you cannot dedicated serious time to drilling every single one with your students every day. there is not enough time in the day for such activity.

more what i was trying to get across is that often he will pull at technique out that is not part of our regularly repeated drills, a special technique (special in the sense that it is not part of our regularly drilled material)

he will give us these moves and explain them in detail. spending often and entire class so everyone gets a good feel and understanding.

From here its back to regularly drilled material.

but at the same time he has given everyone the taste of a drill that we can continue on our own if we wish to, but it is a drill that is not going to be part of his regularly taught material.

[mantis108]

The way my former teacher sparred was singly, or with multiples, and you worked whatever techniques you wanted to. His favorite techniques against single fighters were chi-sao and arm wrapping, and sweeps. He usually fought in a side-stance, except against multiples.

But what he taught wasn't limited to that. We used fists, chi-sao, heel hooks, pretty much everything. I did a lot of heel hooks, back kicks and flip kicks because that was an easy way to get people trying to get in or behind me. (Why punch when you don't have to?) He liked to sweep me a lot.

I can see why you feel uncomfortable going against the MMA trained individuals. I am sure your former teacher and yourself are skilled. But sorry to say this seems to me is more inline with continuous point sparring with some degree of takedown allowed. From what you described here, I believe there is a serious lack there of capitalizing of the clinch range/phase (and we are not even talking about the ground game). It also seems to me that you are fixated on an approach of fighting, strategy and tactic. In a polite setting, you might do very well indeed. Personally, I would believe that a rude awakening is in the corner somewhere. I don't mean this to be a criticism of what you do. I meant this as a friendly advice. The skill that you have may be giving you a false sense of security. It's a hurdle that we as martial artists will face at least once if not more on our journey. In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.


Against multiples he used something like chi-sao but he'd be working 2 people at once. It's kindof hard to explain and I don't really have time to go into that.

No comment.


However, these techniques do not seem to translate into the boxing world or MMA world. For example, he didn't hold high stances. In boxing they tend to have high stances and their weight kindof forward. This causes their center of gravity to be very high, leaving them vulnerable to sweeps, takedowns and leg attacks.

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.


When I went to the MMA class they kept trying to make me do boxing. I tried to explain to them why I did not want to do boxing. I sparred with some of their people and they didn't know what to do because my face wasn't out in front. They'd come in and I'd kick them in the legs or I'd do a back kick to their stomach, or I'd wrap them up and punch them. Their MMA folks would try to shoot and I'd go lower in my stance and they couldn't really do anything (The first guy I grabbed his head and kneed about 3/4 speed and stopped about an inch from his nose, really freaked him out).

Basically, what they do is just some useless stuff IMHO ...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

[Golden Arms]

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme. The fact that you couldnt figure out that school sucked before you joined speaks volumes more than your constant *****ing. Either start your own private teaching/public school, or go to someone elses and learn. Either way, stop *****ing about how everything everyone does is wrong and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Any good school, if asked about applications, will just ask you to attack and be able to perform several for the same move on you, and not from some prearranged attack either.

On a seperate note, the state of martial arts in the world today makes me sick. The only thing worse than the MMA guys being right about 70% of the schools out there, is that the 30% that are good have to deal with guys like this, as well as people coming in looking for pretty much everything BUT fighting. Even the art portion of "martial art" is a joke in most cases. It is an art in that you are taking the skillset to a high level, not in that it should look pleasing to the eye in form performance. The is the same kind of crap that f'd the samurai culture up once the Japanese stopped fighting. Suddenly you had all these samurai around, many of which hadnt even fought, practicing a bunch of arts and idealizing things, all the while losing the lifeblood of their skillset.

If you want to get good, train. Dont talk about it, dont try to find ways other people are doing it, and critique them, find someone that does it and work under them, learn how to work hard.

[neilhytholt]

The more I read neilhytholt's stuff, the more I wonder: Is he a troll or just hardheaded? Why the hell were you even going to a school with blackbelt women doing a pyramid scheme.

Golden arms. Two words for you ... bugger off.

The reason I went to this school was because it was the only school in town that had sparring. It was a small town, and I wanted to do sparring.

[Green Cloud]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

[jethro]

but I wish so badly I could watch ufc all day long, instead of like 1 fight a week when i am on break at work. The last one I saw was the iceman against this REALLY tough kid from omaha. But he got beat in the fourth. So seriously, I wish I could watch it more, and btw, how many rounds do they go, I thought it was 3, but maybe it's 5? Also btw, what does "OT" mean?

Sincerely
the friendly troll

[ShaolinTiger00]

kungfu for the most part has a competitive fighting training regimen. It's called San Shou or San Da if you like.


I'd just like to take this time to point out something that San Shou Guru ( A national champion and world competitor) said last week:

Traditional moves = you getting your ass kicked. Theory goes out the window when you are getting punched in the grill before you know what is happening.

My advice, don’t try to use traditional moves to overcome him, learn his moves. Then after about 5 months of boxing basics start reintroducing your Hung gar or whatever. If you go in with the mindset of “I will use pather crossing fist to his jaw as he throws his jab then follow with phoenix press punch to his exposed flank” your teeth are going to come out like Chicklets.

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.



The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

[neilhytholt]

Lets just say if you do not take my advice I REALLY hope you are in one of my students divisions one day at a Sanda event because it will be one less opponent to really worry about. I have never, in more than 2000 matches, have I seen a fighter be successful using traditional techniques against any modern style fighter.
[/I]

The truth is that fighters from good teams win sanshou events. TCMA guys who step up usually get moved down in the first round.

That pretty much mirrors my experience in fighting boxers. You can train for years and win karate tournaments and still get your ass kicked by a boxer if you fight like a sparring tournament.

[neilhytholt]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

Actually I haven't seen any CMA guys since the first ones, I think. I don't think they even really compete anymore. It seems to be primarily kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, grappling, etc.

Are you implying that they're just shut out or something? That's possible. I don't know. I just assumed that they got so badly beaten in the first onex that they didn't even enter anymore.

[neilhytholt]

In my mind, you have your teacher's image to cut down first (your cup is full because of that). That's a battle that you will have to deal with. I am just calling it as I see your posts developed. Please ignor my advice if you fill it's irrelevant.

..

Boxing in ring boxing format is somewhat different from MMA/UFC or street boxing (dirty boxing). The latter knows how to deal with the shoot and the clinch game. There's even joint attacks in street boxing. It would be wise to take a deeper look into it. Footwork in boxing is second to non - float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. That means they can explore your blindspots more effeciently and easily.

...

Please refer to Father Dog's last post. I am not sure what kind of MMA school you have encountered and what kind of fighter (may be someone new to that gym like yourself?) they put you up against. Either the gym coaching is seriously flawed, or it is the fighter that suck big time. But then to your credit it might just be that you have some skill. If that float your boat, well more power to you.

Anyway, I would appologize to you first if my comments offended you. I am by no means critisizing. Good luck in your search.

Mantis108

I don't think I'm a bad fighter, but I don't think I'm a great fighter, either. Believe me, after I left my first sifu, I ran into a studio where the sifu liked to bring in outside people, any outside people that people wanted to, to spar on sparring night. We had everybody from top level TKD guys to boxers to bar brawlers.

And I can tell you that the first time I fought a boxer I got my ass handed to me, that's for sure. They moved much faster than I expected and hit really hard.

But I found that it was capable of countering them using basic taiji. Yes, most people on here won't believe that, I am sure, but that was my experience.

And yes, the people I fought at this place weren't that great, at all. I've been to places that train UFC and Pride fighters and I can tell you, I'm nowhere near, nothing at all their level of conditioning and skill. They train almost every day. I just don't have the time for that.

Anyways, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm floating my boat, because I know that I inherently suck. Because I don't do enough training. :) I mean, I got my ass handed to me by a JKD guy the other day who moved faster than anybody I've ever met. But I don't think he would be able to stand up against the UFC guys because he's not at their level of conditioning.

[SifuAbel]

Oh lord, here we go again. :rolleyes:

Lets have the abridged version, shall we? Without all the assumtions made here, the bottom line still stands that one must fight with contact and with various styles of opponenets. Putting the blame on anything else is pure hyperbole. A jab, a cross, and a boxers stance are as traditional as it gets. I learned that stuff in the first 6 months. It is NOT traditional NOT to fight. If you have to think about your moves you are 5 seconds behind the guy that doesn't. Fighting is abstract. Its an abstaction built on the concrete of form(which is not to be confused with sets). Ma bo is awesome. And if you suck at it, too bad for you. :p

ST , you've fought 2000 matches?

No, there hasn't been a large CMA showing in the UFC etc EVER. If you told me 1000 CMA players lost consistantly over 10 years then you'd have a statistic. Also, few, if none, in 10 years has been undefeated in UFC. The guy that wins today will lose tomorrow and win the next day. So winning doesn't really matter either.

Is the majority of CMA in the US ricebaged into oblivion? I can't say no. Many of whom I see doing so called TCMA don't have "it".

Are there people that have had a good showing ? Yes, onasis come to mind.

Are there a few gems that still fight? Yes, there are some. More than you'd think. But overshadowed by those who suck.

[David Jamieson]

but I wish so badly I could watch ufc all day long, instead of like 1 fight a week when i am on break at work. The last one I saw was the iceman against this REALLY tough kid from omaha. But he got beat in the fourth. So seriously, I wish I could watch it more, and btw, how many rounds do they go, I thought it was 3, but maybe it's 5? Also btw, what does "OT" mean?

Sincerely
the friendly troll


last to first:

OT=Off Topic

and

ufc matches are 3x5 minutes except for chumpionship matches which are 5x5 minute rounds.

[hung-le]

Whoa.... this is some old crap that’s been played out. i.e. "Why CMA Doesn't Win in the UFC....... BALLS!!!!! Usually its floated by somebody with a macho handle like "Choke U out" or "U been Taped" I've always been partial myself to "Stick Fighter" or " Pig sticker " and Gun U down"

Sometimes they get clever with Japanese judo terms like "juji Gatame"


All posting with a bent on lording over any martial art that doesn't focus on grappling............



Question: Ever wonder why they frequent a Chinese news group like this and not a MMA or Jujitsu news group?

Answer: Because they are full of BS...that's why!


nice try neilhytholt!



Now they say the UFC favors the stand up game .....BALLS!!!!!!!!!!! yet they fall to mention that many get ko'ed before they get a chance to take it to the ground...or the guy gets to his feet after being took down then Ko's his opponent. they fall to metion that in UFC and Pride its now about fifty-fifty (submission to Ko)

MMA displays some serious traditional Quan Shu techniques.
Chuck Liddell has Ko'ed a couple of guys with one of my favorite punches "Shangbu guo shou zaichui" ( Step up wrap hand and plant fist)

Are not many knockouts scored by repeated reverse punches? CMA?

In fact I would say MMA are starting to look more and more like traditional martial art contests. Gone is the BS where the guy got up on his toes and danced trying to kick box (that crap was nothing but point fighting...Last time I checked Shaolin Monks didn't get up on thier toes and kick box. Usually that crap wouldn't even work in a bar fight against a thug...let alone someone highly skilled in free style Jujitsu....... Its the reason why you don't see bouncing and weaving on the toes in traditional forms.....

Put some knee high boots, some old style tights and trunks with a sash around his midrift and Tim Sylvia with his "on guard stance" mimics an old style bare knuckle fighter... talk about traditional!

Those first UFC events where filled with traditional guys who never had any experience with guys outside their respected styles..(they where rank armatures compared to all those Jujitsu and free style wrestlers ) that was obvious to anyone who ever had been in a few real fights)


The only thing wrong thing with CMA is the same thing wrong with most martial arts.....They usually don't train/spar against other respected styles... (I'm not talking cross training ....I'm talking about ...Taking your style and cross training IT against other styles...finding out what works....in a free style format)
If your name is "Pig Sticker" or "Juji Gatame" or whatever ...don't hand no crap... save it.........because I've trained at some pretty affluent Jujitsu/Judo and Sambo schools and have pulled off (dare I say it?) CMA techniques


I just can't believe this post made it to five pages......Asinine! pure 100%

[SevenStar]

I was just curious neil, How many CMA have you seen in the UFC that have lost. Is it a small percentage or a large percent. Personaly I have not yet to see a Kung Fu guy in the UFC except for Cung le. Than again I don't watch that much TV.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com


I posted their results from the first 8 UFCs in another thread - you commented on that thread. There have been other losses since, naturally. On average, it would seem that they lose more than win. someone posted a clip here a few months back of a kung fu guy that was beaten by a wrestler... I think he was a student of huangkaivun - a guy who used to post here.

[jethro]

what, no gay jokes about the ufc this time. Why are you coming on here talking about judo and crap like that. It is superior to kung fu , but still depends on the practicioner. I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you . So go and give somebody else a history lesson on judo cause it may surprise you, btu people on here actually know what that is:eek:

[SifuAbel]

I now pass the mantle to hung-le. Go get um kid. :D

[hung-le]

what, no gay jokes about the ufc this time. Why are you coming on here talking about judo and crap like that. It is superior to kung fu , but still depends on the practicioner. I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you . So go and give somebody else a history lesson on judo cause it may surprise you, btu people on here actually know what that is:eek:



Thanks jethro....


You just proved the point I made in the above thread ..Again....Thanks

If you believe judo is so superior to kung fu ....."what the hell are you posting here for?"


there can be only two reasons



A) are you trolling ...and puffing up your Microsoft muscles....trying to stroke your ego.....?

B) scared to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news groups actually centered around MMA.....................???


Am I to believe you like posting here with people you have nothing incommon with?




Other than these two reasons, if a person is not into CMA I can't see why somone would post here...

yet you do///and others of your ilk....


I see this time and time again......Captain "joke u Out" lords over CMA news groups and if he doesn't get the internet respect he thinks he got coming

(because he reads the latest Black Belt mag and watches the UFC...) then....then Its challenge time..."He States..."I'll bust you up! where? and when?...etc etc...etc....what a laugh..

what's even more predictable is the next time I read this thread your spedo buddies will come to your rescue...Guys like "pig sticker", "Gun U down" "Purple helmet choke out" etc...etc...will chime in....what hoot....

Who is really trolling?

Me? who digs CMA

Or you and your spedo butt buddies?



(gheeze and you wonder why I make fun of the UFC.......Maybe to get under you skin....Duh.......Duh.....DUH



I love this.."
I will guarantee you that you can use your jujitsu style on me and I will leave you inconscious, and I won't even be usin kung fu on you ."


Ohhhhh! that's tuff..... I think my typing hand is shivering....I"m scared I guess your one bad mother......Huh....LOL get real

[PangQuan]

i never understood how someone could post a remark on the internet as to how they would beat someone else from the internet in a fight.


how can you possibly know if you dont even know who you are talking to?

i have always found claims like that validate that the one placing claim does not really know what they are talking about, to speak as fact through what is obviosly ignorance shows unfathomable idiocy.

its reeeediculous

but it never stops, one guy leaves, another takes his place.


ah, to know the true motivation for such things would be a great insight...

[Green Cloud]

I posted their results from the first 8 UFCs in another thread - you commented on that thread. There have been other losses since, naturally. On average, it would seem that they lose more than win. someone posted a clip here a few months back of a kung fu guy that was beaten by a wrestler... I think he was a student of huangkaivun - a guy who used to post here.


The guy that fought the wrestler, was that a ufc thing or was it the vid with the guy that looked like a tooth pik dressed in the black bruce lee garb with white frog buttons. In that vid the wrestler broke his arm. Just wondering wich vid it was.

[jethro]

thanks for letting me know that you don't actually look through and read the threads on this site, you just post. Stay with your linear system of learnign styles and I will stay here and hope to learn as much as I can. But make sure that you post a challenge on here some time so I can see up close by you of why I should discontinue my interest in this and switch over to the dark side:D

I would write more but there is some trolling to get done:p

[hung-le]

thanks for letting me know that you don't actually look through and read the threads on this site, you just post. Stay with your linear system of learnign styles and I will stay here and hope to learn as much as I can. But make sure that you post a challenge on here some time so I can see up close by you of why I should discontinue my interest in this and switch over to the dark side:D

I would write more but there is some trolling to get done:p


What a joke! You just got done slamming kung fu...what do you hope to learn here?


But make sure that you post a challenge on here some time so I can see up close by you of why I should discontinue my interest in this and switch over to the dark side:D


Still trying to bully me by calling me out on the internet? dude!....Does it look like its working?


Why not go hang somewhere oh...like say like a MMA site...after all, that is be all to end all with you...isn't it? Or do you get a siffy trying to lord over a kung fu news group with that "UFC is so much better crap"

I'll repeat

Other than the two reasons I posted above I can't understand why you and others of your ilk.... post here....

[hung-le]

Ps

I'm still waiting for your friends with names like "grappler" "Wrestle U" "pit Fighter" "Cage fighter" "Knife U too" "Gun U down" "Dagger" lets not forget juji Gatame....and other jujitsu handles ......etc...etc...to chime in and pile on........

Seems you UFC/MMA internet "LORDS" run in packs on this site.......................

[jethro]

there is no reason we can't be friendly about this. i by no means ripped kung fu, I know that judo is a superior style, but i am looking to train my body and not be competitve. I hope to learn many styles and not just one. I hope that I will get far enough to where judo can be on my list. But you saying that challenging you isn't working, how is that? I have been looking for somebody for over 3 months now that I can have a good argument onthe internet with or just an argument in general. I will be here all night posting. I may even pick up a couple of hours just so I can get in as many resonses as I can. But sersiously, if you are evr around here and me around there, I would seriously like to see your skills. But nice to know I just have to put that on there, so youcan get scared I guess.

[PangQuan]

I know that judo is a superior style

LMAO!

with a statement like that, its obvious your an idiot.

[neilhytholt]

LMAO!

with a statement like that, its obvious your an idiot.

Well he does kindof have a point. The original system of judo which is rarely taught anymore consisted of grappling, the basis of BJJ, and striking.

Basically modern MMA which appears to be necessary in the ring.

[jethro]

I hope i am not offending anyone, but I know that there are plenty out there saying yeah huh sure, yaeh right... I have heard it from many martial arts master(movie ones) that judo cannot be countered effectively enough by kung fu. I am going at this with an open mind and will certainly be giving comments on what I learn, but I still no way in hell am saying that just judo is better. Unless you find out quick enough that it is the style for you and literally devoted your life to it. You could become tougher than anybody I guess. But learning many styles is the way to go, though now it just seems like I am just repeating things that were already said here. But I have believed this my whole life and will change my mind when it has been proven to me that if you just study judo or jujitsu, you will be unstoppable. No freaking way I will ever believe that. Train bob sapp in mantis for 10 years or so and give him a teacher that knows how to poke him, he will cry and become better for it, and then mantis will be known as the best style I guess. Too much to say about this so I will wait till I get ripped on more. :p

But seriosly when a dude comes at you and is gonna grab you and throw you the eff around, what are you gonna do, you will still fight him, right? Well you are gonna at least need to get him off of you before you will have a chance. If you both know judo that is great, it could be a good fight. But say the other person knows kung fu and also knows a lot of grappling, the just judo guy like chun-li is screwed. Fights come down to survival more than styles, but the training you have received and your inner qi will most likely decide who wins. When you get hit unexpectadley, the more you have trained, the faster you will be likely to recover.

I know, I said I would stop, alright:p

[Pork Chop]

Thanks jethro....


what's even more predictable is the next time I read this thread your spedo buddies will come to your rescue...Guys like "pig sticker"....


:eek:
I'll have you know that I have not worn speedos since i left swimteam... well okay, i did wear it a couple times on laundary day, but only as an underwear replacement!

Thai shorts are much cooler than mma shorts, but San Da shorts are teh r0xx0rz.

[PangQuan]

The ultimate "styles" are now lost to humanity. Raw instinct combined with experience is in my opinion is the best "style"

Picture this.

A woodsman, late twenties, early thirties. Spent his entire life, hunting, tracking, trapping and surviving.

The woodsman has developed a superior physical body, due to his harsh life. Now the woodsman has been drafted into a war. The woodsman uses sword, axe, hand, tooth and claw, to defend himself and defeat his enemy on the battle field.

through hard years of many military campaigns the woodsman has been trained on the field of battle. he has killed counless men, whilst in the midst of locked melee combat. he has survived numerous wounds, some near fatal.

now this man is a hardened warrior, with near unmatched skills through years of actual experience.

His natural primal instinct is still in tact through his years as a woodsman, being as near to animal as man gets. with this instinct combined with his years of martial training, and combat has forged him into a true warrior.


Now, today, we have martial artists, who play at such things, and practice with sparring and forms. and get into the occasional real fight. But chances are rare anyone will every gain 1/10 of the skill the woodsman/warrior has gained.


There is no superior style. All combat effectiveness is wholey dependent on actual life experience.

So, you can take a man who has never studied martial arts but has 100+ actual fights under his belt. He will likey defeat most who have studied martial arts for years.

to simply say karate, judo, kung fu, etc. is superior is silly. it depends ONCE AGAIN, on the persons with whom are involved.

there are no superior styles, just superior training methods and experiences.

granted there are styles that are deluted and weak, im not taking those into consideration, the only styles need be considered in such debate will be those proven effective in past or modern times through trial and error. Life and death.

Today the closest men get to life and death is KO/submission, or not KO/submission. unless you live in a harsh invironment and actually DO defend your life regularly.

All the training in the world amounts to very little compared to actual deadly combat experience.

[jethro]

great point, you have to be defeated and stomped on before you can become good .

[Green Cloud]

Hey Pang, I was just wondering did the woodsman live happily ever after.;) I think what all you guys need to ask your selves is, Do you guys have the desire to spend your life to become the Ultimate fighting champion. Or do you have a real job or real goals like colledge or being succesful making money and what not.

I would venture to say that most of you just like obssesing over these issues. The thing is CMA offers a person a way to develop and enhance ordinary skills like your intelect, balance, speed, power and grace.

For most of you kung fu guys if you train hard you will have the edge if you are ever attacked in the street.

Now if you decide to become ultimate fighter than you have to train and cross train and practice for that specific venue. We have seen that there is not one specific style that works in these venues. I have also seen guys that stick to there game plan win. If you are a stand up fighter train to knock people out, if you are a grapler train to choke guys out and you will win.


greencloud.net

[ShaolinTiger00]

The thing is CMA offers a person a way to develop and enhance ordinary skills like your intelect, balance, speed, power and grace.

So does Ballet. :rolleyes: Furthermore so does MMA. CMA is not unique at all in developing any of those skills.


We have seen that there is not one specific style that works in these venues. I have also seen guys that stick to there game plan win. If you are a stand up fighter train to knock people out, if you are a grapler train to choke guys out and you will win.


Incorrect. The "style" that wins most often is the fighter who is the most well rounded fighter who can IMPOSE his gameplan. To be a standup fighter you have to be able to be a good grappler.

[Merryprankster]

Training can't fix being a pus$y

[Green Cloud]

St, Incorect about what, In order to be a good stand up fighter you have to be a good grapler??? And what's wrong with ballet??? Is it your intention to put down things that you can't do. Like I said Kung Fu requires Intelect and an apreciation for Art. Fighting is fighting of course you got to be well rounded but what does that have to do with kung fu?? Are you trying to say that knowing CMA along with an understanding of styles won't work???

All I got to say is No Da dummy.:rolleyes:



greencloud.com

[Green Cloud]

Mp, I agree it doesn't matter what you know if youre afraid of your own shadow

[Merryprankster]

I don't know that ST00 was trying to be a jerk, I think he was trying to be highly specific, making a distinction between "sticking to a gameplan," and "being able to impose that gameplan."

[Knifefighter]

To stop a fight is a concept, that involves a very different process, than figthing, which is essentially 'sport'.

And what, exactly is "stopping a fight"?

[Knifefighter]

Now they say the UFC favors the stand up game.
Of course today's MMA shows favor striking. That is what the majority of fans want to see. MMA is now a sport and plays to the fans who are mostly interested in the standup portion of the fights. The majority of today's MMA fans are not very well versed about the ground/grappling portion of fighting and find it to be boring.

Ever see two MMA fighters have to stop and restart into a grappling situation? Of course you don't, but you will often see the opposite happen.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Is it your intention to put down things that you can't do. Like I said Kung Fu requires Intelect and an apreciation for Art.

The irony being you misspelled intellect and appreciation.:p

And what specifically about kung fu requires these things? And what prohibits MMA fighters from obtaining them? ex. -I'm a registered architect with enjoys historic preservation. I've got both intellect and art appreciation. I also see the beauty and strategy of being an intelligent fighter who uses skill (and science) to overpower brawn.

Despite your attempt to dumb down MMA, there is a very beautiful and intelligent core to it.

btw: I studied tcma for 9 years under 2 highly respected sifus. I am not ignorant about cma.

[jethro]

Training can't fix being a pus$y


but pucies can still become men, though it is rare.

[Green Cloud]

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter. Everything else you mention comes from experience and good training. So I still don't understand your point and then a mention about ballet or something.

Once again fighting is fighting and it takes practice and good training. Regardless of what style you do. It's the macho bull**** about fighting that I can't stand. Like I said in the past I have several systems under my belt. It's my preference to make my home in CMA because it's harder to learn and it takes longer to master that makes it all that much challenging. After learning CMA everything else seems like a peace of cake.

I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

By the way ST what made you study CMA for so long?? Did ya have bad experience or something??? Is that why your a hater??? None the less your on this forum trying to prove what???

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

[neilhytholt]

If I could interject here, it seems like most of the people on here that are pro-MMA or that style of training have done CMA.

It seems what most of the pro-MMA people are saying, is that the training regimen of CMA is not realistic for fighting, judging by the success in the ring.

That there is too little actual contact, or their classes don't have enough sparring, or like I was saying, that every teacher seems to require a ton of forms and don't let you spar with what you have without learning their techniques.

It seems what most pro-CMA people are saying, is that the venue and techniques of MMA fighting is too simplistic, and doesn't allow them to use their techniques.

That the techniques of MMA fighting are boring, the training isn't interesting, they want something more complex, that they aren't allowed to use their deadly techniques, etc.


OKAY ... so let me break this down a little into the arguments.

MMA
Plenty of live training.
Plenty of live sparring.
Plenty of live fighting.
Disallows deadly techniques.
Low on forms and katas.

CMA
Less live training.
Less live sparring (according to CMA folks they cannot 'spar' their techniques realistically).
Less live fighting (according to CMA folks they would hurt their opponent).
Doesn't limit techniques.
High on forms and katas.

So I don't know what everybody's goal is for training MMA or CMA. MMA folks some might want to become paid fighters, right? CMA folks some might want to become paid teachers, or learn some culture, right?

But let's limit the question to just fighting.

How confident do you really feel, MMA folks, that you could use your techniques well against live opponents on the street? That they are battle-tested?

How confident CMA folks really feel, that you could use your techniques well against live opponents on the street? That they are battle-tested?

[FatherDog]

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter.

And he's right. If you're not a good grappler, anyone who is will take you down and keep you down - you can't be a good standup fighter if you can't keep yourself standing.



I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

Many people in my gym are in their late 30's. The 40 and up division in NAGA and Grappler's Quest regularly has many competitors in it. Randy Couture won the UFC light heavyweight championship at the age of 40. Try again.

[Green Cloud]

Father dog you talk about Randy C. being 40, but that's one guy and oh yea he is stand up. Like most good anti graplers he keeps him self from ever getting caught up on the ground and usualy knocks his opponents out. My entire system ( lama kung fu ) is based on anti grappling.

I have studied jj for years and get together with tai guys, boxers, and anyone I can get my hands on to improve what ever gaps I have in my system. The bottom line is that if you stick to what you know and keep yourself informed on what's out there than you can enjoy the style that suits you and do well against other styles.

The one thing that I don't agree with is the numbers that you guys are using to base your theories about CMA.

Statisticaly speaking only a handfull of Kung fu guys have ever competed in the UFC or in some MMA tourneys out of thousands of MMArtists. That said I do agree that most traditionalist only focus on forms and when it come to their training regiment they exclude cardio and weight training. Than again come to think of it so do most traditinal styles like karate jiujitsu and so on.

This doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with these styles, it's realy up to the individual to fill in the gaps in their training regiment. I visited with Mat serra who is one of gracies better fighters and I didn't see any weight or punching bags or anything in his gym. I just saw mats and a cage. Does that mean that they don't cross train outside of the gym??? Of course not.

The fact is most of the CMA bashers on this forum have all taken kung fu at one time or another and I find that they are disgruntal because their Sifu's never held their hands and made them go the extra mile.

It's realy up to the individual to take that upon himself if he or she realy want to. Don't blame the style blame the practitioner.

greencloud.com

[Royal Dragon]

That said I do agree that most traditionalist only focus on forms and when it come to their training regiment they exclude cardio and weight training.

Reply]
Interesting comment..are you sure that those who do this are "Traditional"? Or are they *Modern* Silk Pajamas who have forgotten the traditional methods of building fighters, and practicing thier art?

Also, shouldn't your forms give you plenty of very sport specific Cardio?

[Royal Dragon]

Statisticaly speaking only a handfull of Kung fu guys have ever competed in the UFC or in some MMA tourneys out of thousands of MMArtists.

Reply]
I Think Sifu Abel has brought this up before, but for the most part, CMA competitors are generally funneled into Kou Shou, or San Shou fighting. MMA isn't even on the radar.

I don't have the stats, but I bet you would see more CMA guys in K1 than UFC. Anyone know about this?

[neilhytholt]

Statisticaly speaking only a handfull of Kung fu guys have ever competed in the UFC or in some MMA tourneys out of thousands of MMArtists.

Reply]
I Think Sifu Abel has brought this up before, but for the most part, CMA competitors are generally funneled into Kou Shou, or San Shou fighting. MMA isn't even on the radar.

I don't have the stats, but I bet you would see more CMA guys in K1 than UFC. Anyone know about this?

Well, K1 is different. Much less bloody for one thing. And the matches that I've caught on T.V. for K1 has been either kickboxing or sanshou, and in sanshou there are CMA fighters but they still wear closed gloves and can't do any grappling moves.

Cung Le was good at throwing people but one fighter I cought (who lost anyways by decision) would just go to his knees and that was that.

It seems like K1 is less realistic than the UFC.

[Royal Dragon]

It seems like K1 is less realistic than the UFC.

Reply]
Maybe in the aspect of wearing gloves and such, but what is so realistic about the UFC? You are fighting on a matt, there are refs, and various other rules. Most competitors are not out to main or kill you, and you are not out to maim or kill them. It's really just hard sparring without extra equipment.

Also, unless things have changed since I paid attention last, if a guy is on the ground in UFC, don't you have to get down and grapel him? How realistic is that?

In a real fight, your opponent isn't going to get down and wrassle with you, they are going to stomp your head like melon untill your brains ooze out all over the place.

[neilhytholt]

It seems like K1 is less realistic than the UFC.

Reply]
Maybe in the aspect of wearing gloves and such, but what is so realistic about the UFC? You are fighting on a matt, there are refs, and various other rules. Most competitors are not out to main or kill you, and you are not out to maim or kill them. It's really just hard sparring without extra equipment.

Also, unless things have changed since I paid attention last, if a guy is on the ground in UFC, don't you have to get down and grapel him? How realistic is that?

In a real fight, your opponent isn't going to get down and wrassle with you, they are going to stomp your head like melon untill your brains ooze out all over the place.

Well K1 gloves are not open, so you can't do any grappling. IMHO UFC is as realistic as you can get without seriously harming the other person. They fight to knockout or tap or where it's pretty obvious the other person couldn't defend themselves. If somebody's at that point, sure you could finish them, which is why they call a TKO and end the fight.

[Fu-Pow]

I have studied jj for years and get together with tai guys, boxers, and anyone I can get my hands on to improve what ever gaps I have in my system. The bottom line is that if you stick to what you know and keep yourself informed on what's out there than you can enjoy the style that suits you and do well against other styles.

L]

I would say that you represent the small minority of TCMA people. And I am a TCMA person.

[ShaolinTiger00]

ST, the statement you made was that you have to be a good grapler to be a good stand up fighter. Everything else you mention comes from experience and good training. So I still don't understand your point and then a mention about ballet or something.

My point was that your original statement made it sound as though those skills were unique to CMA when they clearly aren't.


Once again fighting is fighting and it takes practice and good training. Regardless of what style you do. It's the macho bull**** about fighting that I can't stand. Like I said in the past I have several systems under my belt. It's my preference to make my home in CMA because it's harder to learn and it takes longer to master that makes it all that much challenging. After learning CMA everything else seems like a peace of cake.

I'd agree. CMA is far more complicated and impractical than many arts. It could take years of practicing ridiculous animal forms before you'd master tham all.


I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.

I'll have to mention this to my bjj instructor who is 57, a Vietnam vet and still taps me out.


By the way ST what made you study CMA for so long?? Did ya have bad experience or something??? Is that why your a hater??? None the less your on this forum trying to prove what???

Originally ignorance, then denial, then loyalty :D

I joined cma after college looking for excercise and always wanted to learn "martial arts" (ironically I grew up boxing and wrestling!) but like the majority was under the delusion of the superior, mysterious asian striking martial arts.

So I joined and happily lapped in all the heavenry grory :D including weapons, forms, qigong, taji, tea ceremonies etc. I was on my way to being a caucasian shaolin monk..;)

But in 1995 I saw the world wushu competition and the debut of san shou in the US and was blown away because it was the first time I saw wrestling (a skill that I excelled at) being used in conjunction with striking. My tcma teacher was not a sanshou coach and didn't want to become one so he recommended me to a coach and I moved shortly after to train kung fu and sanshou with that coach. The longer I was training the more sanshou I was doing and the less forms etc.. and I began to see the division in a fighter vs. a martial artist. I was a fighter, and I saw how my background made me a better fighter than many of my peers.

I was serious sanshou guy for years competing in most of the major tournaments until '99 and took time off for family. Shortly there after I got involved in a challenge match against a bjj guy on this very forum who was talking smack about CMA. no one else stepped up to represent, except me.

So I fought him and while he never hurt me, he did make me realize that I didn't know as much about the ground as I probably should, and I soon found myself doing judo and bjj and then saw the reality that is the integration of combat sports into the most effective unarmed fighting. - MMA which I've been doing ever since.

I don't hate CMA. in fact I have a lot of good memories in CMA and friends for life. BUT CMA needs to be honest about their skills and this forum is full of cyber warriors who talk about how great cma is but yet prove it so rarely. I'm just saying (and I said the same thing to you before Gus.) Is that if you (anyone) thinks that CMA is really so great, so advanced, more sophisticated and superior then let's see it! Enter in MMA fights where you can show us the mythical "anti-grappling" techgniques etc. because without factual evidence and record, it's all just heresay and it offers no credability to your claim.

No personally GC I now know you're 40 with a bum hip and I don't expect to see you fighting in the cage anytime soon, but that is all the more reason you should be glad guys like me are proving what truly works and what doesn't because we are the next generations teachers who have learned from past mistakes.

[hung-le]

Of course today's MMA shows favor striking. That is what the majority of fans want to see. MMA is now a sport and plays to the fans who are mostly interested in the standup portion of the fights. The majority of today's MMA fans are not very well versed about the ground/grappling portion of fighting and find it to be boring.

Ever see two MMA fighters have to stop and restart into a grappling situation? Of course you don't, but you will often see the opposite happen.


Ballls..........!

And how many fights today don't make it to that stage? I.e. guys getting knocked out before they get a chance for a grappling situation?

a lot.......both in Pride and UFC

But .....this point ...is moot and secondary...to the real point I was making with jethro.....





The real point………


What's this have to do with Kung Fu?


Again let me reiterate what I posted three days ago.......................


Usually this crap is floated on this net by somebody with a macho handle like "Choke U Out" or "U been Taped" "Stick Fighter" or " Pig sticker " or Gun U down"

Sometimes they get clever with judo terms like "juji Gatame"


All posting with a bent on lording over any martial art that doesn't focus on grappling............i.e. CMA


there can be only two reasons



A) They are trolling ...and puffing up their cyber muscles....trying to stroke their pathetic egos....?

B) Or afraid to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news group that actually centered around MMA.....................??? again….Why.....because of their fragile ego…??

why would someone hang around on a news group and talk about MMA on a net for kung fu?

Knife fighter……

I popped up your posts and counted the number of times you actually expressed a real thought about a CMA. I stopped after 40 when the pattern became obvious

Out of forty ONLY 2 where about WC (and you words were superficial at best ) the rest …..38…….yes 38 were all devoted to MMA, UFC etc …etc……


like I said.................

A) They are trolling ...and puffing up their cyber muscles....trying to stroke their pathetic egos....?

B) Or afraid to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news groups this actually centered around MMA.....................??? again….because of their fragile ego…

Which one ?

A or B

[jethro]

it works pretty well, don't worry chun li, I'll look at your posts when I have the time, but it is nice to get you out of the way when reading this. Can you post the same thing for a 5th time though?

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I don't mind the MMA guys comming on the forum. I allways hope it will spur TCMA guys out to fight in those venues. It never seems to get any of us to stray from our beloved San Shou, or Kou Shou, but one can hope right?

How many Kung fu guys enter MMA fights anyway? is there some way to check everyone's background? Maybe Kung Fu guys do fight in these things, and just don't talk to much about it.

Doesn't Shooter's club fight MMA and win with Tai Chi?

Also, lets see what Cung Le does shall we?

[Green Cloud]

ST, Thank you for sharing and being so frank. I have to agree Kung Fu is hard to learn when you take in consideration the forms.

I for one teach a limmited amount of forms and focus more on the fighting tech. When it comes to fighting we employ stand up and ground fighting. I also take in consideration that in a grappling situation that size and stregnth matter.

Speed and a logical train of thought prevail in such cases, not to mention that having a good arsenal helps.

As far as being 40 and all and injured I have no problem with getting together with you to roll around a bit if the oppurtunity arises.

Life is not over at 40 it only get's better, in fact due to my injuries all I do is grapple it's actualy easier for me. I can still kick punch block trap and choke out from my back. The best part is I don't have to worry about my balance.

greencloud.com

[SifuAbel]

I'm still waiting for ST to say openly that his hop gar teacher is full of it. :rolleyes:

Or did he do that already?

[SifuAbel]

I don't hate CMA. in fact I have a lot of good memories in CMA and friends for life. BUT CMA needs to be honest about their skills and this forum is full of cyber warriors who talk about how great cma is but yet prove it so rarely. I'm just saying (and I said the same thing to you before Gus.) Is that if you (anyone) thinks that CMA is really so great, so advanced, more sophisticated and superior then let's see it! Enter in MMA fights where you can show us the mythical "anti-grappling" techgniques etc. because without factual evidence and record, it's all just heresay and it offers no credability to your claim.




You could'a fooled me. CMA isn't a person. So your Hop Gar sucked, oh well.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm still waiting for ST to say openly that his hop gar teacher is full of it. :rolleyes:

Or did he do that already?

Actually it was Jow Ga. In my opinion Sifu Hoy Lee is a good man and he has good kung fu skills but he's no fighter.. (although there are some of his students who have great potential I think they are his senior instructors now.)

But Mike Barry? ****.. Mike was a boxer and Karate fighter in the early 60's & a trainer in the mid-70's. He's one of the only guys I've ever met who understood the difference from the fighter vs. the martial artist. If you fought in a san shou match from 1995 - present there is a good chance Sifu Barry was reffing, judging or helping out the fighters in some capacity.

I have nothing but respect for Mike. He's family to me.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You could'a fooled me. CMA isn't a person. So your Hop Gar sucked, oh well.


So when's your debut in the cage Able?:rolleyes:

[FatherDog]

Father dog you talk about Randy C. being 40, but that's one guy



Many people in my gym are in their late 30's. The 40 and up division in NAGA and Grappler's Quest regularly has many competitors in it.


and oh yea he is stand up. Like most good anti graplers he keeps him self from ever getting caught up on the ground and usualy knocks his opponents out.

What? Randy Couture is a greco-roman wrestler, known for taking guys down and beating them on the ground. He doesn't have a single knockout in his career.

Please try not to say things if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[FatherDog]

Also, unless things have changed since I paid attention last, if a guy is on the ground in UFC, don't you have to get down and grapel him?

No. Again, if you don't know what you're talking about, please shut up.

[jethro]

Yer Right But Chun Li Makes A good Point That A Lot Of Times They Dont Even Get To The Ground. So Kung Fu Or Any Style Makes A Big Difference. I would Have To Say That Grappling And Training Are Equals.

[SifuAbel]

So when's your debut in the cage Able?:rolleyes:

When did you win K-1 the first time? :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Actually it was Jow Ga. In my opinion Sifu Hoy Lee is a good man and he has good kung fu skills but he's no fighter.


So you are saying in your opinion that his kung fu is ineffective?

[SifuAbel]

I'd agree. CMA is far more complicated and impractical than many arts. It could take years of practicing ridiculous animal forms before you'd master tham all.



Thats not what he is trying to say at all. And all this angry hyperbole makes you sound like a malcontent yahoo.

It just seems to me that your experience with CMA was beyond your scope of understanding. You may have learned the sets but you were dumbfounded to figure what you were doing. I find my sets to be neither complicated nor impractical. In fact, it seems to me to be the simplest thing in the world.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I find my sets to be neither complicated nor impractical. In fact, it seems to me to be the simplest thing in the world.

So again, When are you going to get in the cage to show us how great your kung fu is?

You see what I'm talking about Green Cloud? Abel is a kf guy who for years has ran his mouth about how tough he is but has never proven it. His biggest claim to fame is "international forms champion" Impressive indeed brave Warrior!

He has been asked several times by other mma'ers here to fight and he evades at all costs.

[Green Cloud]

St I know nothing about about Sifu abe but I do know hoi lee and mike barry. Consider yourself lucky to have studied under these guys. I'm wondering if I have ever seen ya. Are you still training with sifu barry?? Hoi lee has a very strong presence in competisions when it comes to forms.

I can see what you mean about the fighting. The thing is it's hard to be good at both. Diferent strokes for different folks, some guys like forms some guys like fighting.

CMA give people the option to do both, I've also seen kung fu schools fall into that category. There are CMA fighting clubs or kwoons that just specialize in forms. In Sifu hoi lee's case his student's are very strong in forms were talking awsome so they don't fight that's not a bad thing.

Hell some schools just specialize in lion dancing. From what I've seen Sifu MB focuses more on fighting.

That's what I like about CMA it has so many avenues. AS far as fighting in CMA you got San Da.

As far as my school we have always exeled in fighting and forms and thanks to the efforts of my training bro Dave ross who will be throwing MMA events soon, I can only imagine that we will excel in that area too.

It's all bout learning a new sport and succeeding using their rules.

ST sound like we travel in the same circles maybe We will meet some day. I know that Sifu Hoi lee is out of washington and baltimore or something, and I've also seen Mike Bary at these events mostly back in the day when nacmaf was strong.

Now I'm going way back but back then CMA tourney were the first to hold full contact events that allowed knees elbows and throws of a lei tai stage without ropes no less.

If you are still with Mike barry why the CMA bashing I don't get it. I know people get enamored with new things, but don't forget UFC is very new and is basically geared to favor japanese(bjj) systems of fighting. Give CMA a chance it's been around for a long time and it's still evolving it will catch up. Lets not forget the concept of MMA came from Bruce Lee who was a CMA that filled in the gaps.

Jeet kune do or what ever works is not a new concept.

greencloud.net

[Knifefighter]

Father dog you talk about Randy C. being 40, but that's one guy and oh yea he is stand up. Like most good anti graplers he keeps him self from ever getting caught up on the ground and usualy knocks his opponents out. My entire system ( lama kung fu ) is based on anti grappling.[/URL]

Randy Couture standup??? anti-grappling???

LOL!!!

Green Clown, your lack of knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

Randy Couture was an Olympic level Greco-Roman WRESTLER.



Also, unless things have changed since I paid attention last, if a guy is on the ground in UFC, don't you have to get down and grapel him? How realistic is that?

UFC, Pride and other MMA events have never forced someone to grapple an opponent on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

I popped up your posts and counted the number of times you actually expressed a real thought about a CMA. I stopped after 40 when the pattern became obvious
Out of forty ONLY 2 where about WC (and you words were superficial at best ) the rest …..38…….yes 38 were all devoted to MMA, UFC etc …etc……
A) They are trolling ...and puffing up their cyber muscles....trying to stroke their pathetic egos....?
B) Or afraid to hang with people who know MMA etc....on a news groups this actually centered around MMA.....................??? again….because of their fragile ego…
Which one ?
A or B

How about option C.

Trying to explain the obvious to guys like GC & RD who don't have a clue about MMA.

[PangQuan]

Im used to seeing Randy C. take his man to the ground THEN pound them.

he looks as comfortable on the ground as a fish does in water.

i seem to recall him smashing most of his opponents up against the cage then finishing them off.

[Green Cloud]

Knife fighter the amount of TV that you watch never ceases to amaze me, but from the little that I have watched Randy C. usaly wins by knock out or by constant striking on the groung. I have abserved very little submissions from the guy. Then again I am not an obsessed follower of the UFC so maybe I'm wrong.

[hung-le]

How about option C.

Trying to explain the obvious to guys like GC & RD who don't have a clue about MMA.



Ohh......And exactly how or what does that have to do with kung fu? Seems that all you do is post about MMA

Balls!…….

I do very little CMA anymore… For about 15+ years now, I’ve trained in full contact western style heavy weapons both rattan and live steel, I am very very **** good at it. I train with some of the best in the US.

Yet, do come here and call myself “Blade Master” or some other BS name and denounce CMA weapon forms?

Or try to make fun of how they spar or train with weapons?

No… what would be the purpose?

This is a kung fu forum… for people who do kung fu………I respect that!

Would I go to MMA forum and do nothing but talk about how I think fighting with actual weapons is so much more superior to fighting with your hands?

Then when someone tries to check my ego, issue a challenge to him or her?


NO!

Anyone important to my discipline is in my realm of contact and not on a kung fu news group, so I don’t need my ego stroked by a bunch of people I will never know…… Nor do I need to try to lord over them……..

There are a slew of you guys that come here and try do that with your MMA crap…and I just don’t get it…. with over a 1000 post to your name, mostly posting on MMA……

WTF Is your train of thought?

Dude? Are you aware of what you look like to a casual user to this news group? such as myself ....

You look like your full **** and hot air….probably not your intent….but none the less……….

[Green Cloud]

My bad I mixed up Chuck L. with Randy C., Give knife fighter a prize.

Just to recap I was talking about Chuck L's stand up. Didn't he beat Randy C ???

[PangQuan]

ya he beat him, and the match before that they had randy beat him.

they beat each other.

course chucks was a ko in just a few seconds...

[dwid]

ya he beat him, and the match before that they had randy beat him.

they beat each other.

course chucks was a ko in just a few seconds...

Actually, Chuck has beat Randy twice now, and Randy beat Chuck once (the first time they fought, I think).

Also, Couture has retired, so there probably won't be a fourth fight.

To be honest, I think Liddell has a huge psychological advantage over anyone he KOs that gets back in the ring with him for a rematch. Once you've been hit by one of those K.O. bombs he throws, I would think it would mess with your head during a subsequent fight with the same guy.

[Green Cloud]

Thanks for clearing that up guys, I always get those guys mixed up. Anyhoo Knife fighter I hope that clarifies things up for you. I love how you are so critical about mma trivia on a CMA forum.

greencloud.com

[Knifefighter]

Thanks for clearing that up guys, I always get those guys mixed up. Anyhoo Knife fighter I hope that clarifies things up for you. I love how you are so critical about mma trivia on a CMA forum.

greencloud.com

Only when dumba$$es try to use it as an argument to bolster their side of the debate. In your case about Couture being an older striker who is still able to be in the game at his age because he is a striker. The fact that you meant Liddel makes your reasoning a moot point.... but I wouldn't expect you to know that.

[Knifefighter]

For about 15+ years now, I’ve trained in full contact western style heavy weapons both rattan and live steel,

As in SCA?

[Royal Dragon]

Knife Fighter,
UFC, Pride and other MMA events have never forced someone to grapple an opponent on the ground.

Reply]
Ah excuse me!! This was defenetly true a number of years ago. I specifically remember watching a fight (UFC I believe) where a grappeler literally layed down in front of a striker and waited for him. The RULES of that fight were such that if an opponenet was on the ground, the combatants HAD to graple! That fight btw is when i totally lost my respect for MMA as the total, ultimate most realistic MA tournies.

I remeber this specifically because the striker could not stand over him, and kick his head in as per the rules, and the grappeler just layed down ON HIS BACK specifically BECAUSE of the rules!!

AND I remember getting into and argument with YOU about MMA and realisum (or lack there of), and useing this same fight as my ammo to shut you th f---ck up.

And last time we bumped heads over this practically the whole forum jumped in on my side siteing the rule was infact in play at the time.

Like I said, i don't know if any MMA events are doing this anymore, and I hope they are not. but the fact is it was then, and was for a long time if it's not still in effect now.

[PangQuan]

As in SCA?

lmao....sca...

[neilhytholt]

Knife Fighter,
UFC, Pride and other MMA events have never forced someone to grapple an opponent on the ground.

Reply]
Ah excuse me!! This was defenetly true a number of years ago. I specifically remember watching a fight (UFC I believe) where a grappeler literally layed down in front of a striker and waited for him. The RULES of that fight were such that if an opponenet was on the ground, the combatants HAD to graple! That fight btw is when i totally lost my respect for MMA as the total, ultimate most realistic MA tournies.


I don't remember that -- they must have changed it. Now the refs do a few things like if they're on the ground too long and going nowhere, make them stand up.

There was one fight can't remember who but the guy was laying there and the other guy was kicking him in the legs, so the refs made him stand up.

[Knifefighter]

I specifically remember watching a fight (UFC I believe) where a grappeler literally layed down in front of a striker and waited for him. The RULES of that fight were such that if an opponenet was on the ground, the combatants HAD to graple!

LOL!!!
You couldn't be more mistaken.

UFC 1 had only three rules:
1- No eye gouges
2- No fishooking
3- No biting

UfC and Pride have NEVER forced fighters to grapple on the ground.

You need to talk about things you know about such as standing in horse stances, jumping around like a bug and pretending to fight like an animal

[Royal Dragon]

Dude, you are such a nimrod. This was long after the original UFC...you know it too.

[Knifefighter]

Dude, you are such a nimrod. This was long after the original UFC...you know it too.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to UFC 1.

However, there has never been a UFC or Pride that has mandated one fighter go to the ground with another. Butt scooting has been around longer than the UFC, but no one has ever been required to engage the scooter on the ground in any major MMA event.

[Royal Dragon]

OK, goofball, whatever you say :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Why doesn't CMA win the UFC?
CMA doesn't develop the skill set and attributes required to be successful in the UFC. Any CMA fighter who wants to be successful in the UFC pretty much learns that he has to incorporate the techniques and training methodologies that have been proven by other successful UFC fighters.

[hung-le]

As in SCA?


among others yes..... I also do live steel.....

but....you do get my point?

[Knifefighter]

among others yes..... I also do live steel.....
Live steel as in sharpened blades?

[Knifefighter]

lmao....sca...
You have an opinion on SCA?

[SevenStar]

OK, goofball, whatever you say :rolleyes:

knife is right. all the striker would've had to do was back up. the ref wouldve stood them both back up due to stalling. The striker wouldn't have been allowed to attack him, but he definitely didn't HAVE to go to the ground with him.

[SevenStar]

My bad I mixed up Chuck L. with Randy C., Give knife fighter a prize.

Just to recap I was talking about Chuck L's stand up. Didn't he beat Randy C ???


you do know that liddel is a wrestler, right? He has wrestled ALL his life and was division 1 in college - in other words, he was dayum good. He's also been training bjj for like 6 or 7 years. The reason his standup is so effective is because his grappling makes him so good at avoiding takedowns. It's not "anti grappling" - he's a very well trained grappler...

[hung-le]

as in squared edges very large steel gorge's (neck protection) and steel gauntlets with Closed faced helm.

expensive....

I prefer the SCA (the prowess is better IMO) live steel all one does is hack and grapple...much is off limits.....(as well as in the SCA...However target wise and agressivness, I give more scope to the SCA .....

[SevenStar]

I can understand how young testosterone filled guys wanna roll around all day, but lets see ya roll around like that when youre in your 40's. Youre just going to need something more sophisticated.


My first judo coach is almost 80 and he still rolls with guys and taps them....He didn't even start training till he was thirty. when he was 75, he chased a robber out of his house.

[hung-le]

so post up....

what makes you such a knife fighter?

[Green Cloud]

Only when dumba$$es try to use it as an argument to bolster their side of the debate. In your case about Couture being an older striker who is still able to be in the game at his age because he is a striker. The fact that you meant Liddel makes your reasoning a moot point.... but I wouldn't expect you to know that.

Hey knife fighter are you mad about something??? you sound angry or something try anger management. I was having a conversation with Shaolin Tiger when you jumped in like a baby with a tantrum. What were you lurking in the shadows stalking me and waiting for me to make a mistake so you can jump in and go BOOO youre wrong.

That's a little weird dude it's plain out spooky:eek:


greencloud.net

[Knifefighter]

I prefer the SCA (the prowess is better IMO) live steel all one does is hack and grapple...much is off limits.....(as well as in the SCA...However target wise and agressivness, I give more scope to the SCA .....

Ever thought of doing a Dog Brothers gathering?
Rattan, minimal protection, all targets allowed.

[hung-le]

lol....

Nice try.... I talked to a dog brother a couple of months back....

I indroduced him to what we do and offered to hook him up with a couple of our fellows in California... he respected what I do.....

said he check into it...but said honestly it wasn't his bag....To much armor....etc....

cool i respected that..cause I hoenestly thought what the dog brothers do wasn't mine...(not enouph contact for me......)

Full contact...means full contact.. Don"t be fooled by the armor......I have had my sternum broke, a crap load of fingers and toes broke , torn ligaments,
Concussions all while fighting honorably.......

Sometime in submission bouts like pas de arms.....(where you stand toe to toe seperated by a wodden baracade and fight till the other gives up.....Sometimes it in practice.... scrap happens when you can bend 1/4 stainless steel bar stock with a piece of rattan....

Again what makes you such a knife fighter? cause I'm getting the feeling you think I'm BS you?

[Green Cloud]

CMA doesn't develop the skill set and attributes required to be successful in the UFC. Any CMA fighter who wants to be successful in the UFC pretty much learns that he has to incorporate the techniques and training methodologies that have been proven by other successful UFC fighters.


No da dummy, if youre going to follow a set of rules you have to train to win by those rules. The original question was why doesn't CMA win in the UFC. We already established that only a handful of CMA have competed in the UFC compare to hundreds of MMArtists. there are not enough fights where CMA have competed in to say that.

Let's put some gloves on the MMA guys and ask them to compete using SAN DA rules than lets see what happens.

Hey I know we can start a thread that sais, Why don't MMA guys win San Da

There is no debate here gentlemen just a lot of Jaded ex CMA guys that never got to learn the good stuff.

greencloud.net

[Knifefighter]

cool i respected that..cause I hoenestly thought what the dog brothers do wasn't mine...(not enouph contact for me......)

How is full contact with only fencing head gear and all targets available somehow "not enough contact" for you?

[Green Cloud]

you do know that liddel is a wrestler, right? He has wrestled ALL his life and was division 1 in college - in other words, he was dayum good. He's also been training bjj for like 6 or 7 years. The reason his standup is so effective is because his grappling makes him so good at avoiding takedowns. It's not "anti grappling" - he's a very well trained grappler...

So what I was talking about stand up, who cares what his backround is. My point is that stand up is just as effective especialy when you understand how grappling works. Most anti grappling styles were sprouted from grappling styles.

This thread is stupid and everyone is missing the point.

[Green Cloud]

My first judo coach is almost 80 and he still rolls with guys and taps them....He didn't even start training till he was thirty. when he was 75, he chased a robber out of his house.


So what does that have to do with anything my Sifu did way more than that. Just look it up I think he made the papers several times.

[Knifefighter]

So what does that have to do with anything my Sifu did way more than that. Just look it up I think he made the papers several times.

Dude... step away from the bong and maybe you will be able to follow the logic of the postings.

It has to do with the age thing that you were alluding to.... remember about MMA people not being able to do much after age 40?

In reading many of the posts on the forum, there is one thing of which I am pretty sure... kung fu training seems to diminish your ability to reason and communicate coherent thoughts.

[ShaolinTiger00]

St I know nothing about about Sifu abe but I do know hoi lee and mike barry. Consider yourself lucky to have studied under these guys. I'm wondering if I have ever seen ya. Are you still training with sifu barry?? Hoi lee has a very strong presence in competisions when it comes to forms.

I do consider myself lucky. Both were very good to me (and for me)in different ways. Seen me? good chance, like I said between 95-99 I was at every major usawkf event. Haven't trained with Mike since 99 but saw him recently after he moved back to Ohio from his long time home in Maryland. I'll be making a trip to visit him this summer.


I can see what you mean about the fighting. The thing is it's hard to be good at both. Diferent strokes for different folks, some guys like forms some guys like fighting.

Exactly. What I have always said was that CMA had to be HONEST and stop saying they were such great fighters when the majority are clearly forms guys. btw I think Jow Ga is an excellent cma with great style and history. if that was where my heart wanted to be I would still be doing it today.


CMA give people the option to do both, I've also seen kung fu schools fall into that category. There are CMA fighting clubs or kwoons that just specialize in forms. In Sifu hoi lee's case his student's are very strong in forms were talking awsome so they don't fight that's not a bad thing.

well I'm going to disagree in a general sense (and explain imho) While I think there are some guys that can be fighters and martial artists (guys like Mike Barry, Jason Yee, etc.) I think they are rare and the exception is not the rule. In the world of CMA they are so few that they are swallowed by the large sea of worthless forms champions.

And while they may produce a few good fighters from their school, generally they don't have enough hard core guys to train with regularly like a good fight team. perfect example - take a tcma trained guy and put him in a sanshou competition vs. a guy from a san shou camp. the camp guy will eat him alive.

I say again, where are the great cma fighters and why aren't they competing in mma events where they can gain credability for cma??


but don't forget UFC is very new and is basically geared to favor japanese(bjj) systems of fighting. Give CMA a chance it's been around for a long time and it's still evolving it will catch up. Lets not forget the concept of MMA came from Bruce Lee who was a CMA that filled in the gaps.

umm ok man this is just a wierd paragraph. MMA is certainly not geared towards anything japanese (bjj is Brazilian) and the rules are stacked agaisnt most bjj fighters. in my opinion the rules actually favor wrestlers!

CMA has been around forever but it has to catch up. Doesn't that sound kinda ridiculous? But I think your 100% correct and I think CMA has been dead for a long time with guys wearing silk pj's and wushu weapons keeping it on life support like some sort of historical reenactment fans.

And Bruce Lee came up with the concept? dude.... c'mon, people have been fighting style vs. style forever and even the most modern version of mma has been practiced in Brazil as vale tudo since Bruce Lee was washing dishes in a seattle restaurant.

You're ok Gus and I want to make it clear that I don't hate CMA or anyone who practices CMA, I just want honesty about what is really going on and there are many in your community in serious denial and delusion about their skills as fighters.

[hung-le]

How is full contact with only fencing head gear and all targets available somehow "not enough contact" for you?

For many reasons: Its a way smaller piece of rattan than I'm used too...
I can't sheild bash...I don't how how to grapple with something as small as a escrima stick.....etc...etc....

Can you floor a man wearing a fencing mask with an escrima stick?

again what makes you a knife fighter......?

[Knifefighter]

Can you floor a man wearing a fencing mask with an escrima stick?

I've knocked out three or four people through a fencing head gear. Go to the Dog Brothers web site and look through the pics. You will see many bloody examples of how much damage a stick can do through a head gear.


again what makes you a knife fighter......?

The scars and stitch marks.

[hung-le]

I've knocked out three or four people through a fencing head gear. Go to the Dog Brothers web site and look through the pics. You will see many bloody examples of how much damage a stick can do through a head gear.



The scars and stitch marks.

We should get together sometime....


Do you live out east or on the west coast with the dog brothers?

If out east where? Usually I'm fighting from Illinois to the East coast and as far down south as New Orleans during the course of a year

Maybe we could hook up? Suit you up in armor and give you a go….etc….

[neilhytholt]

Okay, I think it was a bad idea to start this topic.

I wanted to hopefully convince some CMA people to change their minds and let me come to their school and work on stuff without doing their forms, by convincing them that their training methods were inadequate due to the fact that CMA folks don't win the UFC.

That requiring people to learn the forms of each and every (new) school is a waste of time.

Instead, it seems like both sides are entrenched in their opinions, and there is no middle ground.

It seems like we need a referee to call an end to this fight in the 10th round (or however many pages this has gone).

[Royal Dragon]

This thread is stupid and everyone is missing the point.

Reply]
Actually, I got the point a long time ago, that is why I'm not arguing too much.

[unkokusai]

you do know that liddel is a wrestler, right? He has wrestled ALL his life and was division 1 in college - in other words, he was dayum good. ...


Kung Fool (Green Cloud) isn't going to understand what that means...

[Royal Dragon]

knife is right. all the striker would've had to do was back up. the ref wouldve stood them both back up due to stalling. The striker wouldn't have been allowed to attack him, but he definitely didn't HAVE to go to the ground with him.

Reply]
Dude, you are one of the guys who backed my argument when it blew up a few years ago...

[Green Cloud]

Ok ST I guess since we are on a first name basis you got everything figured out.

[SevenStar]

knife is right. all the striker would've had to do was back up. the ref wouldve stood them both back up due to stalling. The striker wouldn't have been allowed to attack him, but he definitely didn't HAVE to go to the ground with him.

Reply]
Dude, you are one of the guys who backed my argument when it blew up a few years ago...


no way, unless I was trolling. I may have said that I don't approve of butt scooting and sitting guard, but I couldn't have said that there was a venue which made you fight on the ground if one opponent was down.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Let's put some gloves on the MMA guys and ask them to compete using SAN DA rules than lets see what happens.

Hey I know we can start a thread that sais, Why don't MMA guys win San Da

There is no debate here gentlemen just a lot of Jaded ex CMA guys that never got to learn the good stuff.

From my expereince as a san shou guy turned mma guy, I can tell you that honestly MMA is where the best go to compete. (Even Cung is here now.)

I think san shou is the cat's meow myself but ex. I was recently asked to enter myself and several of my fighters in a san da vs. muay thai format fight. I was kinda psyched but when I talked to my guys and explained to them what san da was they were like:

"Wait a minute you mean I go thru the trouble of picking this guy up and slamming him down on teh ground and I'm not allowed to beat the living daylights out of him, I've got to let him back up? No thanks Coach, let's just fight another mma fight!"

and they make a great point. They prefer MMA because the rules are more free and allow you to reap the rewards of knocking a guy off his feet.

The more open the rules the better the fighting imho and I think that when you fight mma there is no one who can say "well I wasn't allowed to use my knees to the head." etc. as excuses.

btw am I included in this ? : "Jaded ex CMA guys that never got to learn the good stuff." because that's b.s. I was in cma for 9 years with respected sifus. I learned good kung fu.

Just because my opinion is not aligned with yours doesn't mean that I sucked etc. I think that's a petty and feeble retort to a legit conversation.

[Green Cloud]

Easy does it fella, no I wasn't talking about you. I was just trying to establish a repoir with you. Although I do sense that you have a love hate relationship with kung fu. As far as your kung fu training I gave you credit for studying under those masters.

[mysteri]

... In my opinion Sifu Hoy Lee is a good man and he has good kung fu skills but he's no fighter.. (although there are some of his students who have great potential I think they are his senior instructors now.)...

hey ST, thanx for the kind(?) words about my sifu, very interesting perspective. although i might add that ur opinion would be in GREAT contrast with those who truly know. but of course, i'm sure that u have first-hand experience with him and of accounts that could lead you to that opinion(?). yes, i'm also aware that sifu lee sent u to learn "san shou" from mike barry and that sifu lee mainly taught u hands and weapons forms. i'm sure my sifu feels that mike barry is a top san shou coach (plus he was jow ga now), so that would be quite reasonable.

as an interesting note, my sifu cross-trained in a lot of different styles in SE ASIA(judo, muay thai, karate, white crane, hung ga) and was actually a SENIOR instructor under one of the more famous burmese boxing teachers in hong kong. other than the fact that sifu lee was FIRST known as a very formidable fighter before he even began learning jow ga by many of his peers, it would naturally seem counter-intuitive that one could successfully instruct people in burmese boxing(with it's brutal repuation) without being pretty tough themselves.

anyway, i'm jus babbling on, but i wouldn't want people to feel mislead from a stray commment. hope ur school is doing well there.

by the way, ohio, eh? i'm sure u've been to the big columbus ohio tournament of course. last year, u might've seen one my my sihing's who did pretty well against one of cung le's top lightweights. another one of my jow brothers, BJ, was voted "best san shou competitor" after knocking out all of his opponents within the first 30 seconds. not everyone can be the best, but the instruction is all the same.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Mysteri,

fwiw, last years Arnolds was a joke and I don't think any of the major teams even attended. No suprise that a tough Jow Ga guy stepped up and won a division.

I understand you loyalty to your teacher and I was aware of his cross training. The reality is that I asked sifu if he could train me to fight sanshou in 1995 and he said "no, we don't do that, but I know a Jow Ga teacher who can" and that was it. In fact I've always respected his candid reply instead of stringing me along doing another form and telling me how someday it will make me a better fighter. Hoy Lee knew what I wanted and he gave it to me on a platter. (Maybe he knew Mike and I would get along coming from Ohio and having a wrestling background?)

I still wear my jow ga shirt sometimes...

[hung-le]

How is full contact with only fencing head gear and all targets available somehow "not enough contact" for you?



http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/Penn33heroicchampions?page=1


Try football with sticks ......


Give you an idea of what I do, here is some pics of a champions battle. What a champions battle is ....its the best fighter in the USA coming together to fight a resurrection/submission battle. Honestly, this particular battle might have been the nastiest I've been in. It lasted 45 min and a hold was called 7 times while medics with an ambulance carted dudes off.

My brother in arms had 2 sheilds destroyed and shredden (and we were using rattan!!)

I used a pole arm for this melee and I was hitting guys and snapping head horizontal, then knocking them down with shoulder strikes or cross checks with my weapon and even striking them as they went down...guys were popping right back up an giving me just as good as I gave them.....

[mysteri]

Mysteri,

fwiw, last years Arnolds was a joke and I don't think any of the major teams even attended. No suprise that a tough Jow Ga guy stepped up and won a division.

I understand you loyalty to your teacher and I was aware of his cross training. The reality is that I asked sifu if he could train me to fight sanshou in 1995 and he said "no, we don't do that, but I know a Jow Ga teacher who can" and that was it. In fact I've always respected his candid reply instead of stringing me along doing another form and telling me how someday it will make me a better fighter. Hoy Lee knew what I wanted and he gave it to me on a platter. (Maybe he knew Mike and I would get along coming from Ohio and having a wrestling background?)

I still wear my jow ga shirt sometimes...

hey ST,

glad we have an understanding. again, i wouldn't want people to be mislead from a comment with no clear foundation. not much harm done, to each his own.

i wish i could say i'd witnessed first-hand the arnold tournament. it seems to attract a lot of different people every year. sifu lee's daughter tammy has been all-around grand champ twice now i think and his son sam once. though they both have many other golds from numerous tournaments, i'm sure it's no wonder they walked over competition so easily, lol.

yeah, one cool thing about sifu lee is he's a pretty upfront kind of guy. i think after he realized how popular ring fighting was getting, he actually decided to start learning how to use stuff for ring fighting instead. though we've always had random guys compete in full-contact events, he's always wanted to put together one good san shou team, but it's hard to get enough guys to simply be devoted to that. unfortunately a lot of people are only attracted to the forms and culture of gung fu, moreso than the gung fu combat itself. so i understand ur plight for sure w/ that.

i wish i could say i always had the time to train for more full-contact fights(though this summer might prove different, new job), but i honesfly only like the format of the kuoshu lei tai format fights. it's difficult for me to do somethin like sifu's "angle kick" in san shou i'm sure u know ;)

as for MMA, i'm all for it! i'm jus not at the point where i feel the need to cross-train yet. a friend of mine runs an MMA school and mostly teaches BJJ himself, so sometimes i'll roll w/ his guys for fun(i used to wrestle so i like to keep the feeling a bit). i jus like learning the "what-not-to-do's" as opposed to the "this is how u get him down for one of these!"lol. i also like when we roll and i hear them say,"ahh! u can't do that in MMA" that's how i know my technique is perfect, lol. i got invited to play tomorrow, i'll let ya know how it goes if i show.

in the end, we're both jow brothers(to an extent) and family disagree, but in the end it's all luv right?:D

[Green Cloud]

Mysteri how are you this guy is no Jow Ga brother, Regardless of what styles I did in the Past I would never put my coaches down and I always give credit to all the styles I have learned. It's called respect something these guys no nothing about. St never once gave credit to Sifu Hoi lee for leading him in the right direction.

These guys are like disgruntal spoil brats that never got there way. If the style doesn't suit them then they think it's crap.

Funny thing is everyone of these complaining brats have studied Kung Fu at one time or the other, unfortunatly they didn't get it.

So now they hang out on a CMA forum complaining and dissing Kung Fu. This is what I was talking about Mysteri, I think your Idea was a good one about letting other styles compete in our CMA tourneys but it definatly should be full contact.

Invite these guys down I'l step in the ring and let's see how these guys do. I get caught up in these debates all the time with these Jhony Come lately wana bees, and I am dumfounded by their lack of respect.

These so called fools that represent them selves as MMA actualy make MMA people look bad. These guys are just the ill manered bullies that made most of us turn to kung fu.

Forget about the fantastic cultural bridge that brings people from all races together as brothers.

These guys are just neanderthals UUGGG I've got you in the Guilotine UUGG look at my speedos while I mount you. You can't have an open conversation with these guys.

with their extreme prejudice toward kung fu they might as well be racist.

My only question to these guy is, why hang out on a CMA forum and argue?? It's almost like you guys need validation or something.

Why not hang on a MMA forum why troll here if you guys don't accept us than Skrew you because the CMA community like to stick to their own no one asked you to join us.

It's all about loyalty and these guy don't have any that's why they are Jack of all trades and masters of none.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

[unkokusai]

These guys are just neanderthals UUGGG I've got you in the Guilotine UUGG look at my speedos while I mount you. You can't have an open conversation with these guys. ]


F-ing hypocrite:mad:

[unkokusai]

with their extreme prejudice toward kung fu they might as well be racist.


Now this is just flat-out stupid. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Do you live out east or on the west coast with the dog brothers?

West coast.
Looks interesting, though. I'm interested in checking it out. Where are they doing this in CA?
What kind of training do you do? Do you train in group tactics?


I'm also interest to find out why the "lmao....sca..." from PangQuan.

[Knifefighter]

ou are one of the guys who backed my argument when it blew up a few years ago...

Another example of kung fu training lowering intellectual abilities (seems to be even worse among those who teach). No one who follows MMA will back that argument. Anyone who follows the sport knows that no event has ever forced people to fight on the ground. This is just a silly rumor made up to make those who train in styles that cannot win in these events feel better about their lack of skills.

[Green Cloud]

F-ing hypocrite:mad: I am specificaly talking about trolls like you on this forum not real MMA people.

Anyway your just a kid with one liners go back to your pokemon collection

[Green Cloud]

Once again uncok, why hang on a CMA forum why not troll some where else. Or are ya that pathetic that you belong to other forums too. Dude get a life or a job or something.

[Green Cloud]

Youre just trying to seek validation that's why you hang here.

[SevenStar]

Mysteri how are you this guy is no Jow Ga brother, Regardless of what styles I did in the Past I would never put my coaches down and I always give credit to all the styles I have learned. It's called respect something these guys no nothing about. St never once gave credit to Sifu Hoi lee for leading him in the right direction.

who are "these guys"? And he did give him respect. But he gave it where he felt it was due. He said the man's kung fu was good. He also said that he didn't think he was a fighter. No problem with that. you can't really respect a man for something he's not.


These guys are like disgruntal spoil brats that never got there way. If the style doesn't suit them then they think it's crap.

1. there is nothing wrong with that. If a person wants to train to be a fighter and the school he is attending isn't doing it, it's time to move.

2. His teacher TOLD HIM to go see another guy.


Funny thing is everyone of these complaining brats have studied Kung Fu at one time or the other, unfortunatly they didn't get it.

or we found something that suited our desire better. After all, we are spoiled brats.


So now they hang out on a CMA forum complaining and dissing Kung Fu.

actually, we don't. we dis misperception. I've actually learned a lot here - it won't make me go back to any kung fu other than shuai chiao ( I hate they are so far away), but I have learned plenty regardless. I've met several people from this forum and had a great time.


These so called fools that represent them selves as MMA actualy make MMA people look bad. These guys are just the ill manered bullies that made most of us turn to kung fu.

who have we bullied? And actually, when I first came here, the whole forum was dissing mma. Now, several guys here actually train grappling with their cma.


Forget about the fantastic cultural bridge that brings people from all races together as brothers.

what bridge would that be? I don't feel a sense of brothership for anyone simply because they train the same art as me. If I don't like you, I don't like you. I may have respect for you for one reason or another, but that is no sense of brothership.


These guys are just neanderthals UUGGG I've got you in the Guilotine UUGG look at my speedos while I mount you. You can't have an open conversation with these guys.

we are neanderthals and you are the one with the spelling mistakes?


with their extreme prejudice toward kung fu they might as well be racist.

I have no prejudice against kung fu.


My only question to these guy is, why hang out on a CMA forum and argue?? It's almost like you guys need validation or something.

LOL, why sit on a CMA forum and bash mma and other things you know nothing about? I've got no need for recognition from a bunch of people that I don't know. I hang out here because I like several of the people here. However, this is a discussion forum, is it not? the point is to discuss, not to sit up here and agree with everything you say just because it's a cma forum and you train cma...


Why not hang on a MMA forum why troll here if you guys don't accept us than Skrew you because the CMA community like to stick to their own no one asked you to join us.

who says we have to accept you? it's an INTERNET FORUM for goodness sake. Why would you care whether or not we accept you? We don't troll, we discuss. And the CMA community doesn't stick to it's own. look at all the political crap you see in mantis, WC and other arts.


It's all about loyalty and these guy don't have any that's why they are Jack of all trades and masters of none.


what's all about loyalty? not fighting ability. In any event, the jack of all trades thing kills me. we train stiking and grappling. period. you guys train striking, chin na, weapons, qigong, iron palm, forms, learning history and philosophy, etc.... your training is way more segmented and you won't master it all. But WE are the jack of all trades?

What in pan qing fu known for? his iron palm. Why isn't he known for anything else?

Why isn't chang tung sheng noted for his striking ability?

why is dr yang only known for his chin na and qigong and not general longfist or fighting prowess?

The list goes on. The answer is because you can't master it all. Thus, you guys are a jack of all trades. Possibly a master of one.

[unkokusai]

I am specificaly talking about trolls like you on this forum not real MMA people.


Hmmmmm...

You ***** and moan about not being respected and not being able to hold a rational discussion, then you vomit up stuff like this:

These guys are just neanderthals UUGGG I've got you in the Guilotine UUGG look at my speedos while I mount you.

You are a hypocrite. :mad:



And I don't know where you got the idea that I was a MMA person real, fake, or otherwise. I have never claimed to be. More imagination in your desperation to feel offended. Well, if you want to feel offended, be my guest. F.U.:mad:

[unkokusai]

Once again uncok, why hang on a CMA forum .


Why shouldn't I?

[PangQuan]

anyone can hang out here.

its up to the readers to sift through what they dont like, and accept what they can.

generally 90% of what you see on here is all opinon anyhow, if you dont like it, dont let it soak in. if you cant help but let it get at you, maybe you should reconsider spending any time on public forums or viewing any mass media...

the "lmao...sca..."

been to a couple events, some good people there, but for the most part its foam padded boffles with crappy practitioners.

if you have the right circle i suppose you could get some valuable experience but i would say over all i would say you can get better practice at a western or eastern fencing school.

[mysteri]

who are "these guys"? And he did give him respect. But he gave it where he felt it was due. He said the man's kung fu was good. He also said that he didn't think he was a fighter. No problem with that. you can't really respect a man for something he's not.

sevenstar,

i know that ur not trying to cause rifts, but what i was pointing out to ST is the same thing i'll point out to u politely in not it's really not a good idea to make unfounded implications and it's much better to ask around or better find out first hand. i'm going to take into account that u've apparently never met sifu hoy lee and that ur not purposely trying to disrespect him, but it would be the same as me simply stating that all of ur teachers are not fighters when i don't even have a clue who they are.

for the record, yes ST did try to show respect for sifu lee in one regard and sifu mike barry(whom i've jus met for the first time a few weeks ago). i'm jus pointing out that since ST is apparently not aware of sifu lee's reputation, even before jow ga (which is no secret in the community), then he can have an opinion, but ought not necessarily make public assertions with nothing to back it with. i think another fact is that ST met sifu lee in the late 80's to early 90's, when sifu was just beginning to settle down with a family. sifu lee was most "active" lets say more in the 60's-70's. so again, i'll give the benefit of doubt there and say it's quite understandable where the misconception could occur.

green cloud, good to see u over here bro. thanx for the sincere words, i know that ur speaking from first-hand experience. honestly, myself and ST have spoken at length on different matters before and we've been pretty cool over the years(even though i've kinda been avoiding KFO for the last few years like the plague, lol, but someone keyed me in to this particular thread). so i know that ST is pretty secure with what he does and i'm quite secure with what i do (of course ur own reputation precedes u as well), so i've never seen the need to have a d*ck-measuring contest with anyone. what'll happen is u'll jus have people talk and talk about stuff which they probably know nothing about, then after a while they'll jus run out of stuff to talk about and they realize that they probably don't really know what they're talking about, so they jus stop talking eventually(jus my reference to trolls). i've spent enough time out of one day here, but again i do look forward to seeing u and the force at Five Tigers tournament next month. ur group was definitely among the more enjoyable for me to watch for sure.

[SevenStar]

anyone can hang out here.

its up to the readers to sift through what they dont like, and accept what they can.

generally 90% of what you see on here is all opinon anyhow, if you dont like it, dont let it soak in. if you cant help but let it get at you, maybe you should reconsider spending any time on public forums or viewing any mass media...

agreed.



the "lmao...sca..."

been to a couple events, some good people there, but for the most part its foam padded boffles with crappy practitioners.

if you have the right circle i suppose you could get some valuable experience but i would say over all i would say you can get better practice at a western or eastern fencing school.

the branch in my city actually offers fencing classes. an escrima guy I know used to go play with them. I'm not sure what the quality of the instruction is though.

[SevenStar]

sevenstar,

i know that ur not trying to cause rifts, but what i was pointing out to ST is the same thing i'll point out to u politely in not it's really not a good idea to make unfounded implications and it's much better to ask around or better find out first hand. i'm going to take into account that u've apparently never met sifu hoy lee and that ur not purposely trying to disrespect him, but it would be the same as me simply stating that all of ur teachers are not fighters when i don't even have a clue who they are.

no need to point it out to me - I'm not making comments about him, as I don't know him - I am paraphrasing what ST said, who DOES have direct experience with him.


for the record, yes ST did try to show respect for sifu lee in one regard and sifu mike barry(whom i've jus met for the first time a few weeks ago). i'm jus pointing out that since ST is apparently not aware of sifu lee's reputation, even before jow ga (which is no secret in the community), then he can have an opinion, but ought not necessarily make public assertions with nothing to back it with. i think another fact is that ST met sifu lee in the late 80's to early 90's, when sifu was just beginning to settle down with a family. sifu lee was most "active" lets say more in the 60's-70's. so again, i'll give the benefit of doubt there and say it's quite understandable where the misconception could occur.

I see your point there. ST did point out, however that he was aware of his training before jow ga.


(even though i've kinda been avoiding KFO for the last few years like the plague, lol, but someone keyed me in to this particular thread).

I was wondering why youy name stopped popping up in threads.

[hung-le]

anyone can hang out here.


the "lmao...sca..."

been to a couple events, some good people there, but for the most part its foam padded boffles with crappy practitioners.

if you have the right circle i suppose you could get some valuable experience but i would say over all i would say you can get better practice at a western or eastern fencing school.



Lol …

I love this…………… always happens…unfortunately…I posted picks….. Look again……that is the real SCA I posted……. Where are the foam boffer weapons in those pics…?

Funny those boffer weapons seem to have broken my sternum, a wrist, numerous fingers and administered a few concussions….boffers?

Why do kendoka flock to our sport? Why do they get pwned by us? Olympic fencers fence rapier in the SCA,,,,, etc...etc......

Gheeze for a bunch of freaks …I guess being the only organization where 3000 guys go head to head (1500 to a side........) every year at the Pennsic war…(the largest non choreographed field battles known……………….…lol………...)

boffers....lol.....that's funny...............

Usually when guys say what you say….It’s for several reason …Sometimes they got involved with some freaks (the SCA is big…every organization as its crack pots…)

Sometimes people show up at a fighter practice expect organized drills…instead a beat fest erupts…..(this usually happens at small fighter practices where there are no belted fighter to organize it….

.Sometimes guys who have experience in other martial arts come to the SCA and way under-estimate our prowess….I.e disrespects us then ends up gettin owned, get mad about it…and quit and give excuses or slag the SCA….bla bla bla




What’s your story PanQuan? its clear you don’t much about the SCA …run into some freaks at a small event….tried to get involved didn’t pan out? I’ve seen that…..

You show up at a fighter practice and tell someone you knew what you were doing.....and someone use you for a pell ( i.e. striking dummy) … and you couldn’t sit down or wear jeans for week cause your azz was black DId your head rang for days…

more times than not this is the actual truthj behind guys who slag the SCA on martial news group like this……..

(On a serious note: although this is funny…this is unacceptable…..and happens a lot in the SCA….. I apologize in advance….if that was the case.. but it wasn't me I way to ****rable to do that (if that actually happened)

How about giving me names of the group you hung with…..So I can have a talk with them…………….

[mysteri]

thanx for clarifying, 7*, i didn't want to put u on the spot. that's correct, ST actually learned from my sifu for several years. that's cool, i can understand and respect his opinion. i was only stating that his opinion is quite the minority of those who have actually been around. kinda like i would jus accept someone's opinion that president bush is doing a good job, even though his poll rating's clearly show otherwise, lol.

anyway, the beauty of forums is that we can all get together and offer out input and points of views. it's one thing to have rational/reasonable discussions even if we're all in disagreeance, we can have a common respect for one another, go have a beer, and at the end of the day we can still crack jokes on TKD,lol(j/k). but that jus seriously is gets screwed up by trolls, who will be there regardless, but when people begin to feed trolls they'll continue to stay resident. the frustration and silliness of it all makes anyone reasonable throw up their hands and allow those people to settle things amongst themselves. but i don't mind comin through occassionally to show my face and set some records straight when need be. thanx for understanding,7*(et al). some conversations are still worthwhile.

[PangQuan]

Lol …

I love this…………… always happens…unfortunately…I posted picks….. Look again……that is the real SCA I posted……. Where are the foam boffer weapons in those pics…?

Funny those boffer weapons seem to have broken my sternum, a wrist, numerous fingers and administered a few concussions….boffers?

Why do kendoka flock to our sport? Why do they get pwned by us? Olympic fencers fence rapier in the SCA,,,,, etc...etc......

Gheeze for a bunch of freaks …I guess being the only organization where 3000 guys go head to head (1500 to a side........) every year at the Pennsic war…(the largest non choreographed field battles known……………….…lol………...)

boffers....lol.....that's funny...............

Usually when guys say what you say….It’s for several reason …Sometimes they got involved with some freaks (the SCA is big…every organization as its crack pots…)

Sometimes people show up at a fighter practice expect organized drills…instead a beat fest erupts…..(this usually happens at small fighter practices where there are no belted fighter to organize it….

.Sometimes guys who have experience in other martial arts come to the SCA and way under-estimate our prowess….I.e disrespects us then ends up gettin owned, get mad about it…and quit and give excuses or slag the SCA….bla bla bla




What’s your story PanQuan? its clear you don’t much about the SCA …run into some freaks at a small event….tried to get involved didn’t pan out? I’ve seen that…..

You show up at a fighter practice and tell someone you knew what you were doing.....and someone use you for a pell ( i.e. striking dummy) … and you couldn’t sit down or wear jeans for week cause your azz was black DId your head rang for days…

more times than not this is the actual truthj behind guys who slag the SCA on martial news group like this……..

(On a serious note: although this is funny…this is unacceptable…..and happens a lot in the SCA….. I apologize in advance….if that was the case.. but it wasn't me I way to ****rable to do that (if that actually happened)

How about giving me names of the group you hung with…..So I can have a talk with them…………….


lol, i didnt hang with a group. i just went to watch to see what it was about.

checked out the rules and regulations and wanted to see what it was.

no i didnt get "used for a pell"

i do, however, find it humerous i say something about padded weapons, and you take it pretty personally, resorting to assumptions about how i got "owned" at an sca event.

never participated...

i became interested just now so i checked out the "rules of the list"

interesting material, concerning weapon fabrication and combat regulations.

[hung-le]

West coast.
Looks interesting, though. I'm interested in checking it out. Where are they doing this in CA?
What kind of training do you do? Do you train in group tactics?


I'm also interest to find out why the "lmao....sca..." from PangQuan.


Seek out a baronial fighter practice. The SCA is all over California. Watch first, then if it’s your bag…. Ask someone if you could barrow some loaner armor to start fighting.. ( I would recommend you tell everyone who you fight you are a new…. at least for a couple of weeks so they get to know your face……….Most should know just by how you move……

Find a Duke or Earl (someone who has won a crown by right of arms…..) ask him to train you….. We usually teach on a one to one basis and don’t do classes (only at events…..) be sincere etc…show respect etc,,,etc…..Normal stuff….

We fight in teams etc...each region or the US (kingdoms) assembles thier best and fight to see who's best in the SCA (those battles resembles football with sticks and can get down right nasty...........

large mass battles with up 200 men formations with 1500 per side etc.....

My favorite Pennsic battle is the woods battle 3000 guys in a woods with a large evergreen forest running through it talk about isolated pockest of thugery......

see and you shall find ,.....its all on the internet....the SCA in a society that re-searches the middle ages not to roll play it....big difference and often confused by the general populace

[SifuAbel]

You see what I'm talking about Green Cloud? Abel is a kf guy who for years has ran his mouth about how tough he is but has never proven it.

Have you?!??! All we have of you is your litlle tiff with Ralek. And all the "matches" you've done. We've never seen video of you.

[hung-le]

lol, i didnt hang with a group. i just went to watch to see what it was about.

checked out the rules and regulations and wanted to see what it was.

no i didnt get "used for a pell"

i do, however, find it humerous i say something about padded weapons, and you take it pretty personally, resorting to assumptions about how i got "owned" at an sca event.

never participated...

i became interested just now so i checked out the "rules of the list"

interesting material, concerning weapon fabrication and combat regulations.

…. well your right about taking the padded weapons personally...... because I just got done posting a site with a crap load of pictures with guys using weapons that can beat the tar out of most men and make them cry…lol........Boffers?.......

I have run into a lot of people on news groups like this ...... as I pry into their wild assumptions....about the SCA I find out that its just that...someone kicked the crap out of them...over nothing but an ego trip........Sad....




And how was I supposed to take this?


“ for the most part its foam padded boffles with crappy practitioners.”
if you have the right circle i suppose you could get some valuable experience but i would say over all i would say you can get better practice at a western or eastern fencing school.




And you didn't even don armor and trade blows….? Interesting very interesting…..yet you asserted
you can get better practice at a western or eastern fencing school


Please go to a baronial fight practice... stay away from small shire fight practice they usually are thug feast with little skill being displayed...(they probably will just beat on you instead of train you....)

The closer you get to the crown in your area the better caliber of fighter you will find... go seek a fight with a duke and tell me what you think………be sure to get his name……
I’m sure you will find their skill up to par…….

[SifuAbel]

He has been asked several times by other mma'ers here to fight and he evades at all costs.

Pft,, right


You gonna be in Miami any time soon? Like say, the 30th. Thats were I'll be. You can come scatch your itch then.

Its so typical. Your response to questions you don't want to answer is if I, a 37 year old guy with no interest in sport fighting, would get into a cage for your amusment. Ok, I pick you.

[PangQuan]

it appears, and hopefully, i was at a section or an event that had these brutish slugfests you describe.

i only know what i have seen, which is little at best.

i had no idea how the community worked until now. ive done some reading the past couple hours, and it is interesting. sounds like something i might even enjoy getting involved in.

the only thing i would say is there needs to be more regulation by those in power at these events to keep things a bit more professional. or you get observations like what mine was.

understandable that in any large organization like this, there will be those who do not correctly represent themselves in accordance with thier over all group, or kingdom as it were.

a friend of mine had some business at one of these events a couple times and i kind of went along as his company. planted myself to wait for him by a bunch of people practicing.

must have been the wrong place to plant.

so, hung le, got a schedule of when a good example will be near me?

portland, oregon.

[hung-le]

yea, I'll make some calls and find out whats going on near you....check back on this thread either later tonight or tommorow (probably tommorow for I have fight pratice tonight....)

[PangQuan]

ok, hey thanks

[hung-le]

Easier than I thought it would be...........



I’m told Mondays at 7pm is the baronial fight practice at Multnomah Arts center 7688 SW Capitol Highway in Portland zip code 97219 phone ….503 –236 9856 (the Marshall in charged ..i.e. guy named Meri …. )

This is a baronial fight practice so their should be plenty of belted fighters there (guys wearing white belts, move real fast, hit real hard ….…….if not, ask where they are and go there……..


Watch out now! … I find there are three types of people you understand the SCA, and you get what we are doing or you think its so, so….or you hate it and think its stupid….. …If you get it and understand it……it’s a very very deep rabbit whole, your mundane friends may never see you again…………….

Best of luck ….hope you find what you are looking for ………tell them a midrealm’er sent you……….and I hope to see some of those *******s at Pennsic and they better fight for us this year………………!

[Green Cloud]

The original question was Why CMA doesn't win in the UFC. I will say it ONE LAST TIME. If this were a court of law this question would have been thrown out due to inconclusive evidence. That means that there isn't enough evidence to support this argument or claim.

Seven* I'm just pointing out the obvious, you guys waste a lot of time trying to prove that CMA is not effective when it comes to fighting. Not true we just don't travel in the same circles. I have guys competing in all different venues, sometimes they win sometimes they loose it's all part of the training.

St said hoi lee is not a fighter, how does he know that. did he ever fight the guy. The statement is, stupid the man is what in his 50's he is now a coach he doesn't fight any more.

That's like saying my sifu is not a fighter no da the man is dead.


As far as respect goes I don't see any, not when respected sifus are expected to walk into the octagon to support their argument.

Petty ****e like spelling that these guys always bring up as an argument. Common have you ever seen a Dr, fill out a prescription. Just because I don't take the time to use spell check doesn't mean I'm not smart.

Mysteri thank you for the kind words I'l see you soon.

The fact is if you go back and read some of the threads the MMA guys like KF come off very rude.

7* just because I don't collect UFC players cards and know all the stats that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

The bottom line is Kung Fu is a different mind set and you guys don't understand it or care to.

I know what why don't we hold a MMA event for all the guys on this thread and lets see who shows up.

Show me where Kung Fu guys have competed in UFC and lost to MMA, And Seven please don't repeat your self with the handfull of guys that you mentioned that I never herd of give me a break.

The fact is if any one of you guys stepped on the mat with me I'l wip you like yo Moma should have.

Kung Fu trains for the street not for MMA Octagon, our national sport is San Da San Shou. That is our venue. We have other persuits and Ideals, not the same as MMA people.

We do not give into the flavor of the month not that we don't take it into consideration when it comes to training.

greencloud.net

[PangQuan]

i have an idea...


who cares...:rolleyes:

its like saying how come you never see any mma guys winning in san da, or forms competitions.

cause they dont enter.

how many mma guys you think can beat me in a staff fight. not many unless they train it.

i got no prob with mma at all. i enjoy it. i dont train for sport period. not gonna change just to stroke my ego, or try and prove anyone wrong.

i train for me, as should and do most. so with that said, thats why kung fu guys dont win UFC. we dont train for that, you see, a kung fu guy is in kung fu because thats what he wants, if he wanted MMA he would be there.

its apples and oranges, ONCE AGAIN.

it still suprises me at how often this has to be REPEATED.

geeeeeeeeezzzz :rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

next time an MMA guy challenges a non sport fighter to go sport fight, they should at the same time accept a spear duel too, make it fair.

[mysteri]

green cloud,

i understand ur plight. the fact of the matter is that there's nothing new under the sun, things jus sometimes show in a different way. i have nothin against MMA stuff, it's cool to watch, they keep me entertained. people will continue to talk and that's fine, talk is talk. i don't feel the need to be validated by anyone and when someone feels the need to validate me i'm not hard to find. maybe they'll "beat" me senseless, or maybe they jus might learn somethin. there's really jus no use to debating effectiveness of martial arts. eventually people will run out of stuff to talk about and after it blows over, truth will still be truth. people can take it or leave it, no skin off my back. :D

[Pork Chop]

Pangquan-

the foam/padded weapons thing was probably a different org. For at least the last 12 years since i first heard about them, the SCA has used weapons of hard wood and/or metal.

First experience with SCA was a couple buds on Okinawa who didn't think the chapter on Oki was all that skilled but the stories I've heard since coming back stateside have me intrigued. I think the skill level has definitely improved over the last decade.


hung le-

looks like fun. :D


SifuAbel-

ST00 made himself available to any and all people in the MD/VA/DC area who wanted to meet him and/or test him out. The one big gathering I was at had myself, ST00, Apoweyn, Suntzu, MerryP, No Know, and others. He more than held his own. Not that I agree with his insults though, I wanna stay outta that.

Change of subject- So you moved back to Florida from Cali?
How's it feel being back?
Just got back to Texas from time in MD/VA/DC and I'm having a real hard time readjusting to the climate change.


ST00

Now that I'm not in DC, i don't gotta be polite anymore. :D I wouldn't say that Hoy Lee wasn't a fighter. The whole bruhaha with him and the people in DC was that he wanted to fight too much. He thought of a particular someone as more of a friend/associate than a teacher and wanted to challenge him for the right to teach. However; I will agree that he probably doesn't wanna run a fighting gym - can be distracting and doesn't win him many brownie points in the kung fu world. I got the same kinda response from where I was training before too: the guy I introduced to you at the gym has fought & is good, but encouraged me to go elsewhere if I was interested in stepping in the ring. To be totally frank, in this country, these days, the sign of a successful kung fu school is not how many fighters you got in local amateur events.


Green Cloud

The only real way to end these frustrating discussions is to just keep doing your thing. The legit schools that train fighters just gotta keep an open mind and keep trying out new events. Eventually someone's gonna make a splash & the speculation will cease. The traditional kung fu route is not right for everyone though; so when guys like ST00 and me find something that fits us better, it's hard not to have a reflexive prejudice against it.

[SevenStar]

anyway, the beauty of forums is that we can all get together and offer out input and points of views. it's one thing to have rational/reasonable discussions even if we're all in disagreeance, we can have a common respect for one another, go have a beer, and at the end of the day we can still crack jokes on TKD,lol(j/k). but that jus seriously is gets screwed up by trolls, who will be there regardless, but when people begin to feed trolls they'll continue to stay resident. the frustration and silliness of it all makes anyone reasonable throw up their hands and allow those people to settle things amongst themselves. but i don't mind comin through occassionally to show my face and set some records straight when need be. thanx for understanding,7*(et al). some conversations are still worthwhile.


I completely agree. I disagree with RD (among other people) all the time, but I've met him in person and he's a pretty cool guy. Trolls are one problem, another is posters that get entirely too wound up over internet discussion.

[Pork Chop]

mysteri

hey cuz. :) nice to see you back on KFO. Heard your forum had picked up in the wake of the demise of SFO.

Everything going well?

Went to great lengths to get a good paying job (finally) and move back here to Texas, but my body doesn't wanna cooperate.... as usual. hehe

Lots of events have been goin on in Richmond, which should be close by you. A few kung fu guys fought last time i was down there for an event. You should check it out, should be fun. :)

Shame I won't get to see you guys at the Wong tourney this year. If you come out here for Taiji Legacy, hit me up, got a huge place if anyone needs a place to crash.

[SevenStar]

The original question was Why CMA doesn't win in the UFC. I will say it ONE LAST TIME. If this were a court of law this question would have been thrown out due to inconclusive evidence. That means that there isn't enough evidence to support this argument or claim.

Seven* I'm just pointing out the obvious, you guys waste a lot of time trying to prove that CMA is not effective when it comes to fighting. Not true we just don't travel in the same circles. I have guys competing in all different venues, sometimes they win sometimes they loose it's all part of the training.

you need to read more of my posts, dude. My only qualm with CMA in terms of competing is the training methodology. If you notice, I've never said "CMA loses in MMA because it sucks" I say their training methodology is off base for MMA venues. The same applies most other TMA as well.


St said hoi lee is not a fighter, how does he know that. did he ever fight the guy. The statement is, stupid the man is what in his 50's he is now a coach he doesn't fight any more.

you don't have to have fought a person to know whether or not they are fighters. He did acknowledge that the man had skill - leave it at that. I don't have to fight my cousin to know that he's no fighter. There's no shame in not being a fighter. whether he was or not should not matter. And if it did, it should only matter to lee himself.


That's like saying my sifu is not a fighter no da the man is dead.

nah, that's different - unless someone had experience with your sifu (as ST has with lee) and knew of him not to be a fighter. ST said that at the time he wasn't coaching - at least not for san shou - that's why he sent him to barry.



As far as respect goes I don't see any, not when respected sifus are expected to walk into the octagon to support their argument.

nobody said you HAD to. However, if you are a fighter, you would think that you would be active in some way, be it fighting, coaching or otherwise. He gave respect to him when he said lee's kung fu was good. Did you skip over that comment?


Petty ****e like spelling that these guys always bring up as an argument. Common have you ever seen a Dr, fill out a prescription. Just because I don't take the time to use spell check doesn't mean I'm not smart.

LMAO... I'm guilty of this and do it to fock with you and your guys. This started way back when you were talking about something (being anal, maybe? I can't recall) yet you made all types of errors in spelling, so I was being anal and pointing them out. Then your wrestler guy started posting and he had worse errors than you , so I was pointing them out. Then today, you talk of us being neanderthals - primitive beings, yet you are the one with primitive spelling... As for doctors, they write sloppy on purpose to prevent various things from happening. I'm sure you don't use typos on purpose.



The fact is if you go back and read some of the threads the MMA guys like KF come off very rude.

only when discussions go to the point of being stupid, like this one is starting to do, or when people get irate at us first. Look at some of the old threads I've been in on the mantis forum. Shirkers is real quick to get an attitude in posting, so I get one back. just forum fu, I guess.


7* just because I don't collect UFC players cards and know all the stats that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

Wow, they have player cards now??? where can I get them? Anyway, in this case, you were wrong. quite wrong. that's fine that you mixed up chuck and randy, but to attribute chuck's success solely to his stand up is dead wrong. Just like attributing cung le's success only to san da is dead wrong.


The bottom line is Kung Fu is a different mind set and you guys don't understand it or care to.

you'd be surprised what we understand or would care to. we are generally more open minded than TMA are. I've posted several experiences on this forum where I have met TMA in real life that dis everything that is not TMA.


I know what why don't we hold a MMA event for all the guys on this thread and lets see who shows up.

if I can work my schedule around it, I'll be there. I was actually supposed to be at Ross' seminar in feb (weren't you there?) but work wouldn't permit it.


Show me where Kung Fu guys have competed in UFC and lost to MMA, And Seven please don't repeat your self with the handfull of guys that you mentioned that I never herd of give me a break.

who you heard of doesn't matter. It's documented evidence. look up UFC results and you will find them. use your web-fu. a search will pull up lists of kung fu guys who have fought and lost. Most you likely will not have heard of. After all, you were the one who said the guys with REAL skill are likely never to compete in such events.


The fact is if any one of you guys stepped on the mat with me I'l wip you like yo Moma should have.

LOL, and you complain about OUR attitudes??


Kung Fu trains for the street not for MMA Octagon, our national sport is San Da San Shou. That is our venue. We have other persuits and Ideals, not the same as MMA people.

training for the street is irrelevant. What we do works in the street just as yours does. I use it on my second job every night. judo, MT and bjj have yet to fail me in the club I work at.


We do not give into the flavor of the month not that we don't take it into consideration when it comes to training.

we don't give into anything. striking and grappling. that's all MMA is. It constantly evolves - it has to, as fighters evolve. that is its nature. Non competition makes you stagnant. No offense, but what you take into consideration is irrelevant. Look at all the schools (I've personally seen several) where that say "this is how you defend against a double leg" and they are doing nothing more than a sloppy tackle, which is worlds different from a double leg, as any grappler will happily show you. look at the knife defenses you see in a lot of schools. Put them against a kalista and they would be castrated. the best way to learn about another style is to interract with them, not try to find defenses against similar attacks within your own style - That's reinventing the wheel. let him attack you. Then you figure our how do deal with it within the context of your style.

[SevenStar]

next time an MMA guy challenges a non sport fighter to go sport fight, they should at the same time accept a spear duel too, make it fair.


I would do it. However, there's a small difference there. Your empty hand techniques should be readily transferrable to any empty hand venue. Translating empty hands to a weapons format is quite different.

[Green Cloud]

Hey seven* just like I have said in the past I'm nursing an injury so I have time to spend on line. I realy don't take anything to heart you know that I just have to keep people in check, altough I do get a bit passionate especialy when student's have negative things to say about guy's that have only guided them in the right direction.

I'd like to pick your argument apart but I don't know how to high lite your comments the way you do mine. Anyway I know that youre only trying to help the argument so I don't take anything personaly. Personaly I like Mixed Martial Arts and never judge a book by it's cover. It seems that the guys I was arguing with tend to stereotype a lot.

All I can say If someone met me and decided that they would easily defeat me because I'm a Kung Fu guy, well that would be a mistake. In the world of CMA there are very few real Mackoys out there but the ones that are for real are a force to recon with.

[SevenStar]

Hey seven* just like I have said in the past I'm nursing an injury so I have time to spend on line. I realy don't take anything to heart you know that I just have to keep people in check, altough I do get a bit passionate especialy when student's have negative things to say about guy's that have only guided them in the right direction.

I'd like to pick your argument apart but I don't know how to high lite your comments the way you do mine. Anyway I know that youre only trying to help the argument so I don't take anything personaly. Personaly I like Mixed Martial Arts and never judge a book by it's cover. It seems that the guys I was arguing with tend to stereotype a lot.

All I can say If someone met me and decided that they would easily defeat me because I'm a Kung Fu guy, well that would be a mistake. In the world of CMA there are very few real Mackoys out there but the ones that are for real are a force to recon with.


use the quote button. That will highlight everything a person says. Then, if you want to specify certain sections, you have to end the quote tag. Notice that when you use quote, you will see two items:

[ quote ]

and

[ / quote ]

these are what star and end a quote. you can put those around whichever text you choose in order to geet it to highlight.

[Green Cloud]

Thanks bro, I'l give it a try

[Green Cloud]

Hmmmmm...

You ***** and moan about not being respected and not being able to hold a rational discussion, then you vomit up stuff like this:


You are a hypocrite. :mad:




And I don't know where you got the idea that I was a MMA person real, fake, or otherwise. I have never claimed to be. More imagination in your desperation to feel offended. Well, if you want to feel offended, be my guest. F.U.:mad: angry boy like I care about anything you have to say blow me

[ShaolinTiger00]

It's kinda wierd when people talk around you..

Let me refine my statement regarding Sifu Hoy Lee. Within the community of kf, sifu indeed has a reputation as a tough guy and a former fighter. My reference stems from the fact that as mentioned by mysteri that in my time with him, he simply wasn't fighting! there was sparring at the school on occasion but there was no san shou, no core of fighters, no motivation to compete full contact etc. He was geared towards forms. He wasn't a fighter. And furthermore having a reputation in one martial arts community doesn't neccessarily make you a great fighter the world over right? The martial arts "champions" in the phone book are a dime a dozen.

I'll say it again, I learned alot of good kung fu from him but when i made the decision that I wanted to pursue san shou, he steered me in the right direction.

I like and respect all my Jow Ga family.


Sifu Abel - As to my fight record? Are you asking for all the San Shou events? The Judo events? Wrestling? Bjj? MMA? be more specific. as I'm an active guy.

byw: Sorry I can't make it to FL on the 30th But I'll be fighting in the cage on June 3rd for a title fight. What are you doing maricon de la playa?

*READ THIS LOUD AND CLEAR*

I would love to fight you in a pro MMA event. Let's set up something for this summer or early fall. I can fight at 205 or 185. I know dozens of promoters who can make this happen.

[Knifefighter]

Just because I don't take the time to use spell check doesn't mean I'm not smart.

Proper spelling is taught in second through fifth grades. If you had half a brain you would have learned how to spell in elementary school.
So, yes, this is pretty good indicator that you are not smart... as are most of your posts and the fact that you can't even figure out how to use the quote tags on your own.


The fact is if any one of you guys stepped on the mat with me I'l wip you like yo Moma should have.

...as is that statement.



7* just because I don't collect UFC players cards and know all the stats that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

The fact that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to MMA means that you don’t know what you are talking about when you reference the UFC.

[SifuAbel]

It's kinda wierd when people talk around you..

Let me refine my statement regarding Sifu Hoy Lee. Within the community of kf, sifu indeed has a reputation as a tough guy and a former fighter. My reference stems from the fact that as mentioned by mysteri that in my time with him, he simply wasn't fighting! there was sparring at the school on occasion but there was no san shou, no core of fighters, no motivation to compete full contact etc. He was geared towards forms. He wasn't a fighter.
I like and respect all my Jow Ga family.




You are a complete yahoo retard. So him being a former fighter means he never was? Retarded.

You neither like or respect Jow gar. And I'm going to make sure your ex sifu knows you have such a low opinion of him.

[Knifefighter]

I would love to fight you...
Sifu Abel & Green Clown & fighting = oxymoron
(Green Clown... type "define oxymoron" into Google to find out what it means. You know what Google is, right?)

[ShaolinTiger00]

And I'm going to make sure your ex sifu knows you have such a low opinion of him.

What's he gonna do beat me up? :D

In typical boniato fashion, You failed to see that while I said he had respect in the community, I'm not certain that really qualifies someone as being a "great" fighter.
Case in point - Look at that video clip of those 2 great "masters" windmilling like 2 school girls.

[Hieronim]

alot of stuff in the ufc as ken shamrock said, is just luck.

[RiceWine]

no offense to the UFC people or amatuer UFCs here.

Here are my two cents though.

I think UFC has too many restrictions. The focus on CMA is to end fights, not to prolong them. UFC is a business. It has to sell. So 15 second fights really has no marketability value.

The UFC are good at what they do. That is awsome.

CMA is good also.

They just do different things.

[unkokusai]

Just because I don't take the time to use spell check doesn't mean I'm not smart.


Every little bit of evidence helps.

[unkokusai]

angry boy like I care about anything you have to say blow me


Beg all you want, it ain't happenin'

[unkokusai]

The fact is if any one of you guys stepped on the mat with me I'l wip you like yo Moma should have.


LOL! :eek: :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

What's he gonna do beat me up? :D

In typical boniato fashion, You failed to see that while I said he had respect in the community, I'm not certain that really qualifies someone as being a "great" fighter.
Case in point - Look at that video clip of those 2 great "masters" windmilling like 2 school girls.


Funny, you nearly dropped a brick the last time this was mentioned. What changed? The fact that you are in another state?

Bueno pendejita, lets see if your skill is as big as your BS.

[Green Cloud]

Knife fighter, the fact that you use spell check and know how to use the quote tags just proves what a geek nerd you are.

Onokacksucker or what ever your name is exuse my spelling tell your moms I'm going to be late tonight.

[Green Cloud]

Unokkocksidemyhead shoot I'm just not smart enough to spell your name right.

[SifuAbel]

Oh, just ignore uncookedthighs. He is an attention Horr. If you answer him it will only pump his little woody that someone even cares to acknowledge him at all.

[Green Cloud]

keep it up boys and I'l go old school on yo asses and snap you into submission, You wana see petty whel I'm ready to play on your level fok wads

[Green Cloud]

Thanks for the heads up Sifuable, but since I'm told it's an open forum I'm ready to play snap crackle pop.

[SifuAbel]

Sifu Abel - As to my fight record? Are you asking for all the San Shou events? The Judo events? Wrestling? Bjj? MMA? be more specific. as I'm an active guy.



No, backwater tourneys don't mean diddly squat. I don't want to hear about your beating on some pepe from down the street.


Lets have video. I mean really, In this digital age an active guy like you must have footage. Especially if you are doing this currently. I stopped fighting in sport when you just walked in to your first school.


And the question remains. If you are now a Jow gar/CMA hater and do boxing, BJJ and judo (san shou? you don't have kung fu as a background anymore and you represent as such), What the heck are you doing here?

[SifuAbel]

Thanks for the heads up Sifuable, but since I'm told it's an open forum I'm ready to play snap crackle pop.

He's pathological. As in mentally ill. You know......... rain man. You'd have a better time arguing with field mice. No matter what you say all he is going to do is come back with some torretsian nonsense. Don't waste your time.

[Green Cloud]

Yea I figured he had terets syndrome or something;)

[Green Cloud]

Sifu able I'm glad someone besides me is out there to defend CMA I got your back dude.

[Green Cloud]

When it comes to unok****saki and butter knife I realy don't take them seriously but I have to hold back and remind myself that they have self image problems.

[SifuAbel]

Well, I'll say this much. Its not a perfect situation out there and there are quite a few bad examples running around giving CMA a bad name. But its not everybody. Its not bad by default.

I'm just getting tired of malcontent petterpumpers going off like the they own some right to spout off on what they know little about.

ST is a prime example. He goes and takes a little jow gar and he doesn't Like it/fit in/cope with it/understand it/whatever and can't find any better around him so it them must be everybody in CMA, not that he just couldn't get good training. So he comes here to make sure that none of us lowly CMA guys gets out of line. And thinks we couldn't beat big bad him. Thats LAUGH OUT LOUD retard funny.

I'm tempted to think he got the "I'll send you elsewhere to learn san shou" just so his teacher would get rid of him. Lord knows, I've done that to a couple of dopes.

[unkokusai]

Unokkocksidemyhead shoot I'm just not smart enough to spell your name right.


That's about what I figured. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Oh, just ignore uncookedthighs. He is an attention Horr. If you answer him it will only pump his little woody that someone even cares to acknowledge him at all.


Yeah, unlike you talking up a bunch of fights you have no intention ever of bringing off. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

keep it up boys and I'l go old school on yo asses


You'll fail?:confused:

[SifuAbel]

"btw am I included in this ? : "Jaded ex CMA guys that never got to learn the good stuff." because that's b.s. I was in cma for 9 years with respected sifus. I learned good kung fu.'

This is total unverified bullchit

" if that was where my heart wanted to be I would still be doing it today."

WTF does that mean?

"I think they are rare and the exception is not the rule. In the world of CMA they are so few that they are swallowed by the large sea of worthless forms champions."

This has some merit, but way overblown.

[unkokusai]

Sifu able I'm glad someone besides me is out there to defend CMA I got your back dude.


Get a room already.............****..................:eek:

[SifuAbel]

Of course.

[Green Cloud]

Unokooksaki youre a diikk

[SifuAbel]

See, I told ya. Pure psycho. Of course no one is more anonymous. :eek:

[Green Cloud]

Unokukkk you are only good for nothing but one liners, you have nothing interesting to add. But ok I'l make fun of you for a while if you like

[unkokusai]

Unokukkk you are only good for nothing but one liners, you have nothing interesting to add. But ok I'l make fun of you for a while if you like


Could you? Thanks. You and your 'partner' aren't making fools of yourselves at all.







:rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

So what's your pathetic experience in the MMA world. my apologies if you have a mental disorder I didn't know

[unkokusai]

So what's your pathetic experience in the MMA world. my apologies I have a mental disorder


Yes, I guess you do. Go back a few pages.

[Green Cloud]

Comon Unkocksai lets have a real discussion, HMM it's what I figured. Youre not able to are you.

[Green Cloud]

Cut and paste all you want but know I'm playing your game, actualy it's kind of fun.

[Green Cloud]

I'm just trying to figure you out. Was it that you were so ugly that your moma had to feed you with a sling shot??

[Green Cloud]

I checked out your bio, what happened you wrestled in high school and never graduated??:confused:

[unkokusai]

Comon Unkocksai lets have a real discussion.


So discuss. Don't ask questions that have already been answered though.

[Green Cloud]

So what's your backroud what do you know about anything and are you able to post more than a sentence.

[unkokusai]

I checked out your bio, what happened you wrestled in high school and never graduated??:confused:


Wow, is that in my bio? I don't remember writing that. You wouldn't be a lying sack of ****, would you?

[unkokusai]

So what's your backroud .


What's a "backroud"? If you want to have a discussion, you need to settle on a language we both speak.

[Green Cloud]

I just figured you said mostly wrastling or something and where the hell is KOKO doesn't that mean tiger mouth in Japanese or something???

[Green Cloud]

I meant back round you know where you from and stuff

[unkokusai]

I just figured you said mostly wrastling or something and where the hell is KOKO doesn't that mean tiger mouth in Japanese or something???


Koko means here. Its where I am.

[unkokusai]

I meant back round you know where you from and stuff


LOL

Ok, I'll help you on this one. You are missing a 'G'. That one is for free.

[Green Cloud]

Oh I see you sighned off I guess the conversation was getting to heavy or should I say real. True colors are true colors what can I say.

[unkokusai]

Oh I see you sighned off I guess the conversation was getting to heavy or should I say real. True colors are true colors what can I say.


Eh?????????????:confused:

[Green Cloud]

back ground, ok I give ya props on that one it's 3:30 my time and I am typing in the dark but we talked abou internet typing it's basically short hand, were not wrighting a book you understand what I mean none the less.

Even more proof that you can't be real.