View Full Version : Bagua Zhang Mother Palms...

04-09-2001, 07:02 PM
I've taken notice lately that the mother palms from the various lineages of Bagua are, in some cases, very different. I was hoping we could get a list going and maybe discuss the differences and the reasons behind it.
I suppose I'll go first...
Single Palm.
Blocking Palm.
Openning Palm.
Closing Palm.
Piercing Palm.
Pressing Palm.
Drilling Palm.
Twisting Palm.
Hmmm...I just realized that names may be a problem. I know everyone has a different name for their palms.
Oh well...we'll see what we can do.


04-09-2001, 07:51 PM
Lion, Snake, Bear, Dragon, Phoenix, Hawk, Unicorn, Monkey. Does this make sense?
http://kabooom.com/8palms.jpg ]

04-09-2001, 07:52 PM
Sounds great, I've got two from two different styles. The names are quite arbitrary however. Both styles look very different...

Liang Zhen Pu

1) Single Palm Change
2) Double Palm Change
3) Twist and Reach Palm
4) Spinning Dragon Palm
5) Roll Arm and Strike Palm
6) Grasp and Drop Palm
7) Turn and Open the Sky Palm
8) Heaven and Thunder Palm

Zhang Zhang Kuei's Dragon Ba Gua

1) Dragon
2) Hawk
3) Monkey
4) Lion
5) Unicorn
6) Fighting Cockrel
7) Eagle
8) Tiger

I don't know what good this does us, but it's always been of intrest to me that Zhang's style uses a different set of animals than that put out by Sun, Cheng, etc. Count, the palms you show above are identical to the palms in Liang Zhen Pu, except for your dragon. Our dragon has the forward palm held facing away from the body at Dan tien level, rear palm away from body with the arm at kidney level. Huh.

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[This message was edited by ScarletMantis on 04-10-01 at 10:59 AM.]

04-09-2001, 08:07 PM
What about the tiger which sounds like different energy from the missing bear in your list. Is it similiar? I did these really fast so I could be the first to reply and have a visual aid. (LOL)

04-09-2001, 08:20 PM
Maybe my understanding of Zhang's style isn't deep enough yet, but IMHO, none of the animal forms even remotely resemble the animals in Liang's (I'm much more familiar with Liang). I like Zhang's form alot though.

Liang Zhen Pu style is rather linear as far as Ba Gua goes. We walk the circle and such, but there's alot of Hsing I style stamping within the form, piercing palms ala Pi Chuan etc.

Zhang's style is really "snakey" and sinuous. It's been difficult for me to learn because it's SO complex. This kind of Ba Gua is very fluid you've gotta see it to believe it!

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

04-09-2001, 09:16 PM
My list;

Heaven Palm: (combines energy of all other palms)Swift, unforgiving, Compressing/Expanding

Earth Palm: Magnetic, receptive, coiling

Fire Palm: Sticking, explosive

Water Palm: Adapting, submerging, lifting

Wind Palm: Evasive, chopping

Thunder Palm: Sudden, shocking, expansive

Lake Palm: Reflective, slicing, hooking/dragging

Mountain Palm: Still, up rooting, projecting.

04-09-2001, 10:15 PM
How do they look? According to my system these would relate like:

I hope you can see that energy in my postures.


[This message was edited by count on 04-10-01 at 01:21 PM.]

04-09-2001, 11:31 PM
For this to make sense you have to know each of the mother palm's in the nine dragon system have a Yang energy, a Yin energy and Taiji(both represented) energy, each with a physical posture to help link the intent of the energy you wish to produce and the physical aspect to make it happen.
Also "Palm" is more a posture term

The Heaven palm which is a compressing/expanding has 9 shapes, there is a double Yang energy that would look like your "Dragon" posture, there is a double Yin posture that would look kind of like your "Bear" posture, and a Taiji posture that sort of looks like your "Loin" posture. Best way is to look at Dr. Painter's tapes or go and see him. After looking at some of the series of the Lion posture from Dr. Xei Pei the techniques and applications are near if not totally exact. The heaven Palm can be all other palms/energy too, its the Palm we spend the most time on and one that leads to mastery of the other 7 remaining energies of the Jiulong system.

The other postures are found and described in some good detail on Painter's First tape that would probably be better then I could describe. I will say they are different from the ones shown in your pictures.

I can see the energies you are relating to with the animal aspects somewhat clear as I studied a system similar to yours, all Bagua if complete and done with dedication is good and effective.


04-09-2001, 11:41 PM
Like I said, the names are going to be an issue. But Count has overcome such problems with his superior knowledge of computers and readily available pics. I wish I had some to post as well...
Anyway, the Mother Palms I've learned seem to be very similar to Kevin's desription. We haven't made much animal correlations but I did just learn them.
I'm surprised how much difference there is between the different branches of Gong Baotien. I studied with a student of Gong Baozhai and his Mother Palms were also different from those of both Count and myself.
Scarlet, I have heard that Liang's style is more linear and looks very similar to Yin style...but didn't Zhang mix Xing-I with his style making it more linear as well? I really haven't seen much so I may be talking out of my ass... I'm very interested in hearing more about Liang's style though. I've always wanted to see it. I don't know of any practitioners in NYC. Oh wait, isn't Tom Bisio here?


04-10-2001, 12:02 AM
Good post, thanks for sharring some insight into the Jiulong system. Actually I have recently met Dr. Painter and have had many interesting converstaions with him through e-mail. I haven't seen any of his tapes but I'm sure they would be interesting. When I saw him demonstrating the various energies it was clear to me the results were the same. He shows it quite well. I should say that the pictures above are postures with applications and not actually mother palms. But the energy should be clear. The way you describe the energies as double yang and double yin etc. And you did get them with the right animals. Heaven or chien or lion should be solid yang as earth or kun or unicorn should be solid yin. Bear IS double yin and dragon IS double yang. It's all about power issuing and intent. I think the names are different but the palms remain the same.

04-10-2001, 02:31 AM
Who was the student of Gong Bao Zhai you are speaking of. Maybe I know them.

04-10-2001, 03:13 AM
His name is Kun Yii Tu.

04-10-2001, 06:52 AM
After viewing Mr. Painter's website I noticed that while the description Kevin gave of his 8 Mother Palms resembles the palms I practice, they look nothing alike when compared with the photos posted there. I guess this is just an illustration of how Bagua Zhang is more about the principles and not the actual posture.


04-10-2001, 07:48 AM
I just realized that I failed to give enough detail to answer count's question. I would find it a logical conclusion that the energies of the bear and tiger might be similar in the Zhang Zhang Kuei lineage. Zhang's style does have some movements such as "Black Bear threads the palm and cradles the Enemy" and "Golden Panda uproots the tree". I'm not really qualified to give a definitive answer, though it seems that bear/mountain energy is there even if the palms aren't named after it. Any ideas about the Fighting Cockrel/Eagle, Snake/Phoenix correlations?

Eight_Trigrams_Boxer, I too have heard that Zhang's style was influenced by Hsing I, yet that is no where evident to my eye. On the other hand, Liang's Ba Gua is supposed to be "pure", yet I see Hsing I all over the place! :rolleyes:

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

04-10-2001, 07:58 PM
>>I guess this is just an illustration of how Bagua Zhang is more about the principles and not the actual posture.<<<

Wonderful :) My feelings exactly. It doesn't matter what Bagua you learn, what forms you learn, what palm changes you do.

The movements and postures alone will never lend to the great internal potential with without tapping into the real power source first and that is found with in the principles and basics of what make an internal art, internal.

A posture is just a shape of an outlet for internal power, it really meaning nothing in the grand sense of the word "posture," its what is underneath it, the power behind it that makes what Bagua postures are and what they are not.

All good Bagua is going to have "givens" which are techniques and or postures and methods of developing internal power, neigong, waigong and qigong that share in similarities because 1. it MIGHT have all came from the same place, 2. What one master/student/method did another enjoyed and found very effective and so they copied it, and 3. If it has existed this long it must have worked cause it's teachers and students have fought and lived to bring it to us.

Bagua is the art of change, yeah I know we hear that a lot from certain people here and yet we never get a good explanation why...

The YiJing talks about Change as being the only constant we can expect from the world, both inside us, outside us, things we have control over and things that we do not. Change however doesn't always mean one to the other and existing between to fringe extremes of the opposite or unknown.

Change is often more in the middle more mild and lends to the idea of changing and yet remaining the same, what Bagua offers is a way to adapt and change but keeping sense of our inner core and truths we know to be sound and tested, so that we are not lost to ourselves to the totality of the changing world around us.

This is played out in all the different style of Bagua. Bagua has an inner core and truths that make Bagua what it is, the art of Change is really more expressed in how so many different people use and express Bagua in different ways but will always have the inner core and truths to share and be martial brothers and sisters without prejudice to teacher, style or even postures :)

Bagua is like that grandfather clock in a thunder storm, it will always keep a steady pace.

04-14-2001, 06:48 AM
That was excellent Kevin. Straight to the point.
you must train to know the power.

I acually Know 2 forms of the Mother Palms.
the Cheng Palms are:
1. Downward sinking Palm
2. Double Lifting Palm (heaven Palm)
3. Closing embracing Palm(Lion Plays with ball)
4. Seven Stars Turning Palm(Double Pusing Palm)
5. Double Crushing Palms(Embrace the moon at the chest)
6. Yin and Yang turning Palms(Bear Palm)
7. Upper and Lower Standing Palms
8. Pushing turning Palm

The Yin Palms are:
1. lion palm(Lion Plays with Ball)
2. Retreating Body palm (Unicorn)
3. Flat lifting Palm (Dragon)
4. Wind wheel Palm (Phoenix)
5. Back and Body Palm (Bear)
6. Lying Down palm (Chicken)
7. Smooth palm (Snake)
8. Embracing Palm (Monkey)


04-14-2001, 03:11 PM
We also play a rooster palm which I did not include in the main 8. I noticed you used a chicken instead of a hawk. Our rooster is somewhere in between bear and snake palm but is more earth energy where as our hawk is extreame fire rising and water falling energy. Very powerful! Also, very important for the heart. I am assuming your yin palms come from Xie Pei Qi. Does he not have a hawk system? If not, which of these palms relates to the heart?

04-15-2001, 12:39 AM
The chicken is the answer.
I never tought about it until you mentioned it.
I'm going to have to do some research on the hawk chicken thing. they both make sence. Maby just philisopical differance. I'll let you know.

Check your e-mail later.
Peace all
Maoshan :D

04-15-2001, 03:26 PM
I look forward to hearing from you on this. (no e-mail yet) Philosophically, the hawk soars and the chicken is earthbound. I wonder what it feels like to a chicken trying to get off the ground? The hawk is a hunter and the chicken is dinner.

Just kidding around. I am glad to see you are back online and your computer is working again.