Sam Kwok on "Secret Techniques"

[lawrenceofidaho]

"No such thing as a secret in martial arts. If your teacher says it's a secret, it probably means he hasn't learned it himself yet, or made it up"

-Sam Kwok


Dave McKeown posted this quote (which Sam said directly to him in 1998) as a comment in response to the video linked in the "Rate this Guy's Wing Chun" thread. I thought it was worth putting up here for those who might not have read it. -Lawrence

[Liddel]

This is a most amusing subject for me...

While reading a book by one VERY well known VT Sifu, i came across a section titled "There are NO such things as so called secret techniques"

The section made some surface asumptions that i personally believed and agreed with, which were that there are NO such things as secret techniques.

However to my amusment apon reaching the end of the book, on the back cover, there were other books advertised authoured by the same well known Sifu with one book entitled something along the lines of " The wooden dummy techniques and SECRET footwork" :D

This was but one contradiction within the book that always draws a smile for me :rolleyes:

[roomey]

Some sifu's claim they know secret techniques but If your sifu is only going to part with 90% of his knowledge then it would be wise to seek a new teacher.
we need to be taught everything in order to pass on everything in order to preserve the art of wing chun.

[lawrenceofidaho]

This is a most amusing subject for me...

While reading a book by one VERY well known VT Sifu, i came across a section titled "There are NO such things as so called secret techniques"

The section made some surface asumptions that i personally believed and agreed with, which were that there are NO such things as secret techniques.

However to my amusment apon reaching the end of the book, on the back cover, there were other books advertised authoured by the same well known Sifu with one book entitled something along the lines of " The wooden dummy techniques and SECRET footwork" :D

This was but one contradiction within the book that always draws a smile for me :rolleyes:
I happen to have such a book sitting next to me.... :)

On page 201, -which is the last page of the final chapter, the author states:

"Some kung fu trainees are very curious to learn the 'secret techniques' or 'missing techniques' from their instructors. Indeed this is a very wrong idea that would only offer their instructors a big chance to make money by trying to satisfy their curiousity."

"I dare say that there is no such what-so-called 'secret techniques' or 'missing techniques' treasured by their instructors."

"The best techniques must be those most commonly used by their instructors in training or actual combat."

"In fact those so-called 'secret techniques', even if they were not nonsense, would soon be missed if these were seldom used by their instructors."

Okay, fine so far.......But, wait!

Pages 202-206 are appendix-type pages. Then we arrive at page 207 which contains promotionals for books, posters, and a videotape. Among the techniques promised to be revealed in the videotape:

1) "the most advanced wooden dummy techniques....... ever exposed"
2) "secret kicking techniques"
3) "TOP SECRET Long Pole Techniques and Double Knives Techniques"

:cool:

[anerlich]

I agree with the broad thrust of this, and hate hype and mystification in the MA.

That said, there is value (for the student) in a controlled flow of information from teacher to student. But this depends on the student's level of knowledge and understanding, and nothing else:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=66

[Liddel]

Yeah i totally agree with Anerlich's point about a "controlled flow of Info" good call .....but on the other side of the coin -

Its interesting that we have people just buying right into these claims and not noticing the obvious contradictions and signs there for the individual to see.

There are other contradictions from the same person talked about in my previous post, who claims to have been taught personally by a certain master on the wooden dummy, however if one pays close attention to certain pictures you would notice that several actions are given on totally opposite sides of the body, one example is the kick with regard to the dummy.

Now im not starting a *****ing session, hence not using names but im merely pointing out that the clues are there for people to see and make them raise questions about certain claims made.... and 'secret techniques' fall into this category.

There are books out there that have contradictory info on the years certain people began learning / finished learning Kung Fu from GM Ip, which certainly raises questions in my mind :rolleyes:

The list goes on ........but for those willing to investigate and not after "the quick fix" its no con....

"Think for yourself, question authority" - Tool

[anerlich]

Hey Liddel, have you heard the new Tool CD yet?

I've been listening to it for about two weeks straight. Great stuff. Really inventive cover art as well.

[Ernie]

another angle you guys might be missing is the company's the produce those books and video's ,,,, name them ! and they love to use junk like secret , original , traditional , never seen except for on planet Klingon ;)

now i know there are lineages that love to use tricky catch phrases as part of there personal propaganda .

but i know when my friend was doing some video's with Vunak , the company was coming up with all the spin and the same thing with Gary's stuff ,,,, silly names like Devastating chi sau [OMG!]

it's all eye candy for the weak minded :p

[Liddel]

Hey Liddel, have you heard the new Tool CD yet?

I've been listening to it for about two weeks straight. Great stuff. Really inventive cover art as well.

Hell yeah !
I only just got a copy recently, but im well impressed.... track two does it for me, ive been crankin it in the car on the way to training which gets me right in the mood for a bit-a-bif-o.

I really like the first track (even though its played to death on radio here) because of the changed tempo at times - its a bit different - great mood.

Ive been listening to Tool and Robert Plants new album non stop for a bit, all my other music is getting neglected :D

Just to stay on topic -
Apparently '10 thousand days' is so good because Maynard found a secret scroll in the beatles archive with 'Top Secret' methods for developing wicked music :cool:

[Matrix]

another angle you guys might be missing is the company's the produce those books and video's ,,,, name them ! and they love to use junk like secret , original , traditional , never seen except for on planet Klingon ;)
.............................the company was coming up with all the spin and the same thing with Gary's stuff ,,,, silly names like Devastating chi sau [OMG!]Ernie,
It's all marketing, and we all know it. We (consumers) eat this stuff up, so the marketing machines keep spinning it out. It seems that people want to be sold, even when we know the claims may be somewhat exaggerated.

Nice of you to point the finger back at yourself so to speak. Only a class act would do that, IMO.

[sihing]

another angle you guys might be missing is the company's the produce those books and video's ,,,, name them ! and they love to use junk like secret , original , traditional , never seen except for on planet Klingon ;)

now i know there are lineages that love to use tricky catch phrases as part of there personal propaganda .

but i know when my friend was doing some video's with Vunak , the company was coming up with all the spin and the same thing with Gary's stuff ,,,, silly names like Devastating chi sau [OMG!]

it's all eye candy for the weak minded :p

I agree with Ernie and Bill, like on the other thread regarding Internal/External, it's all if not most all marketing schemes. I remember in the early 90's when I couldn't wait from month to month for the next Inside Kung Fu to arrive, they had a article about Penjak Silat Serak, and how the GM of the system, Paul De Thouras was the deadliest Man alive (stated by Dan Inosanto, I've learned since that he was miss quoted), well anyways do to this I was suckered into buying two of the video's, which featured not the GM, but his brother Victor De Thouras, who at that time was second in command. Well needless to say, it is a joke of a instructional video (and I literally mean that, there are actually things on the vid that will make you laugh out loud), and not a very good representation of the art of Serak (from what I have seen since, the art is a effective one with many similarities to WC concepts). This is what marketing can do, to weak minded individuals like I was back then. Now with the internet we can be a bit more cautious as we can usually see actual footage or gain more information on something before we decide to spend money on it. If it wasn't for the internet I would have never made my trip to Monterey Park, which to me was a very very critical point in my Martial Arts career.

James

[anerlich]

but i know when my friend was doing some video's with Vunak , the company was coming up with all the spin and the same thing with Gary's stuff ,,,, silly names like Devastating chi sau

Was that TRS? They're "legends" in the field of OTT MA advertising...

I remember one for "Secret Russian Martial Art Technques" ... supposedly used by a Spetsnaz soldier separated from his unit in Afghanistan, going for days without food and water, then being set upon by five tooled-up Mujahadeen (sp) - he wasted them all with his bare hands ... :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I agree with the main thrust of what's been said on this thread - I nonetheless still believe that quite a bit of effective footwork seemed to have to been missing within virtually every corner of the wing chun world with a few exceptions here-and-there.

Not looking to start a flame war...

But my point is: why is it that we've heard so many stories through the years (I know I have) about how adept Yip Man was at walking in and taking people's space away, unbalancing them, throwing them here-and-there, etc...???

And so few people in wing chun are really good at it?

Call it what you will - secret techniques, not-so-secret techniques, hidden footwork, yadda, yadda...

But there does seem to be some sort of disconnect in this matter !!!

Who agrees?

[Ernie]

[QUOTE=anerlich]Was that TRS? They're "legends" in the field of OTT MA advertising...
]

TRS , striaght blast ,, ETC,,, they all do it ,,,, back in the day It was X-Ray glasses and decoder rings =)

Vic ,
i wouldn't put much faith in what YM did to people ,, really seen the videos of so called master from that time and they sucked @ss

thing of how crappy the common non-skilled guy YM might have impressed was :rolleyes:

[couch]

While I agree with the main thrust of what's been said on this thread - I nonetheless still believe that quite a bit of effective footwork seemed to have to been missing within virtually every corner of the wing chun world with a few exceptions here-and-there.

Not looking to start a flame war...

But my point is: why is it that we've heard so many stories through the years (I know I have) about how adept Yip Man was at walking in and taking people's space away, unbalancing them, throwing them here-and-there, etc...???

And so few people in wing chun are really good at it?

Call it what you will - secret techniques, not-so-secret techniques, hidden footwork, yadda, yadda...

But there does seem to be some sort of disconnect in this matter !!!

Who agrees?

Interesting topic. Why are only a few people good at it?

1. The others haven't spent enough time with the art and now want to teach it.
2. Ego, filling in gaps with other stuff.
3. Teachers DO hold back in hopes to teach their kid/brother/etc.
4. Yadda...

I just really think that if everyone was honest with everyone, then there would be no issues (secrets).

Hi, my name is _____ and I learned Wing Chun from 2 different people over a 3 year period. I feel I have a good understanding of the basics and I'm still learning. I don't have all the answers, but maybe as a class we can work through them. If you know of anyone who knows WC, maybe you can let me know. I also will be travelling/having seminars from other WC people to try and fill in the gaps.

Wanna join?

I think this is hella better than some of the crap that happens around this town. So I'm sure in a bigger city-centre, there's even MORE crap going on. We have crappy teachers that stretch the curriculum more than ever before, etc, selling secrets.

My thoughts,
Kenton

[AmanuJRY]

Hey Liddel, have you heard the new Tool CD yet? ...
Really inventive cover art as well.

Yes, I always love how Tool uses the art of Alex Grey (at least on the last three albums now) and this one with the 3D set-up...awesome.

The music on this one is par for Tool, not one of their better works IMO.:cool:

[Liddel]

While I agree with the main thrust of what's been said on this thread - I nonetheless still believe that quite a bit of effective footwork seemed to have to been missing within virtually every corner of the wing chun world with a few exceptions here-and-there.

Not looking to start a flame war...

But my point is: why is it that we've heard so many stories through the years (I know I have) about how adept Yip Man was at walking in and taking people's space away, unbalancing them, throwing them here-and-there, etc...???

And so few people in wing chun are really good at it?

Call it what you will - secret techniques, not-so-secret techniques, hidden footwork, yadda, yadda...

But there does seem to be some sort of disconnect in this matter !!!

Who agrees?

Yeah id agree with you Ultimate on the disconnect of info, but there are so many variables to this equation its hard to pinpoint any or all reasons.

They range from people buying individual actions of Kung Fu on the wooden dummy from Gm Ip, which do we really think would get the full rundown of theory etc. :rolleyes:

To those that really just clicked with 'the old man' as he was affectionatly called, who would have got more one on one time so therefore deeper knowledge to apply to usage.

From what ive been told by first hand accounts, In his mind (Ip Man ) you had to earn it and be worthy of it for him to impart what he knew - so thats not to say that its secret but rather - as Anerlich said earlier there was a 'controlled flow of information'.

The other thing is those just generally interested in fighting. Some of my kung fu brothers just come to training - think VT - then go home and dont think about it untill next training. I on the other hand think about it all the time, i come on here and listen to others opinions - learn more read books etc etc....

IMO i think Gm Ip never had any secrets, he just highly controlled the flow of info, which gave rise to different interpritations.

I totally agree with couches post though - and i am the biggest advocate of "honesty is the best policy", and have no problem with those that sell what they have as thier own interpritation of the art, you cant fault anyone for that IMO.

[anerlich]

Yes, I always love how Tool uses the art of Alex Grey (at least on the last three albums now) and this one with the 3D set-up...awesome.

The music on this one is par for Tool, not one of their better works IMO.

Yeah ... while the album is better than 99.999999% of what passes for progressive rock these days, I think "Lateralus" and "Aenima" hit a lot harder.

The stereo photography thing rocks, though.

So we're not off topic, I'd say Tool were "masters" of their art ...:cool:

[AmanuJRY]

So we're not off topic, I'd say Tool were "masters" of their art ...:cool:

True, and Alex Gray is definately a master artist.




***...but this is the 'secret techniques' thread, not the master one.***