Bagua / Xingyi / Taiji vs. Centerline Systems

[neilhytholt]

Have any of you ever fought any really good Wing Chun or JKD guys?

I met a JKD guy tonight that moved faster than anybody else I've ever met, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Because his weight was forward, he was in a high stance, but he still moved faster than anybody and his punches still seemed to have a lot of force behind them.

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of this. How can you move to the side or get behind somebody who is so fast they hit you like 3x before you can really move?

I never took JKD seriously because I never met anybody who was good at it, but now that I have, I don't think you could ever beat a JKD guy even using classical wing chun.

[neilhytholt]

Basically, I guess the question for you bagua, etc. people out there, is does bagua, etc., have something like sticky hands. I've heard of some push-hands exercises, like big circle, etc., but this seems ineffective against people doing a lot of chain punching and short hand moves.

Are there any short hand sets to baguazhang or exercises something akin to wing chun, for the centerline? Thanks in advance!

[imperialtaichi]

Have any of you ever fought any really good Wing Chun or JKD guys?

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of this. How can you move to the side or get behind somebody who is so fast they hit you like 3x before you can really move?



Yes, I play with really good Wing Chun guys all the time.

The key is, you NEVER give them an opportunity to even punch or get a strong footing, and you have to move in and jam them from the side straight away. If they cannot stand firm or move their arms, they cannot chain punch you or generate power.

Remember all the front/centre line martial art styles follows some sort of a "cone" energetics; so by understanding their cones you can manipulate them pretty well.

In real fights, it is naive to think that one can get out without a scratch. My opinion is to minimize damage to my body and maximise damage to the opponent. So if I am not playing but in real fights, I am prepared to take a few hits, if it means I can set myself up and finish him/off for good.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.

The only problem I have with the wing chun wooden dummy is that it seems to use the inside (outside? weaker bone, bone towards the pinky) of the arm a lot and leave the underside open, which is really bad for knife fighting because it leaves all those veins open to getting cut.

[neilhytholt]

Yes, I play with really good Wing Chun guys all the time.

The key is, you NEVER give them an opportunity to even punch or get a strong footing, and you have to move in and jam them from the side straight away. If they cannot stand firm or move their arms, they cannot chain punch you or generate power.

Remember all the front/centre line martial art styles follows some sort of a "cone" energetics; so by understanding their cones you can manipulate them pretty well.

In real fights, it is naive to think that one can get out without a scratch. My opinion is to minimize damage to my body and maximise damage to the opponent. So if I am not playing but in real fights, I am prepared to take a few hits, if it means I can set myself up and finish him/off for good.

Cheers,
John

So you just move really fast and jam them? The problem I had with the JKD guy is that it seemed like he could move backwards really fast. I couldn't really move fast enough to get beside him. Basically it was like he was on speed. Kindof creepy. But I wasn't really trying that hard, so I don't know how effective he really was.

[imperialtaichi]

I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.



In Tai Chi, we have very neat, very useful arm/leg/body trapping techniques, though not very obvious unless you look very carefully into it. Bit hard to describe on the net without actually crossing hand and showing you how it's done.

As with guarding the centreline? We lure the opponent in, as they are committed to attacking us, the rest of them are left opened for us to control. So classically, just as the opponent thought "ah ha, I'm hitting John on the chest", next thing he knows he had missed me and I have taken out his armpits and ribs.

Cheers,
John

[maoshan]

Peace

Yes, I’ve fought quite a few excellent Wing Chun and JKD guys over the years.

(Basically, I guess the question for you bagua, etc. people out there, is does bagua, etc., have something like sticky hands. I've heard of some push-hands exercises, like big circle, etc., but this seems ineffective against people doing a lot of chain punching and short hand moves.)

In Ba-Gua, we have our own equivalent of sensitivity training. As for your assessment, I have to ask what’s your level of achievement?
Ba-Gua stylist don’t deal with the centerline theory, we cut the corner so to speak.
We also develop bridge power. A Yin stylist would just pierce through the chain punches for example.


(I guess I'm just wondering if there's something akin to the wooden dummy practice or those sticky-hand type exercises for bagua,xingyi,taiji, etc., for guarding the centerline.)

Another method of Ba-Gua, which is the core method, is to not be where the strike is aimed. Constant motion doesn’t allow a set up for the technique. The centerline is always guarded because it’s never there.

(So you just move really fast and jam them? The problem I had with the JKD guy is that it seemed like he could move backwards really fast. I couldn't really move fast enough to get beside him. Basically it was like he was on speed. Kindof creepy. But I wasn't really trying that hard, so I don't know how effective he really was)
Ba-Gua is known for speed. Learning to Cut off the power at the source is part of basic application drills in Ba-Gua. And to get real about it, true speed is a state of mind. The more relaxed you are, the faster you react. Once you’ve acquired enough experience, good timing will always over come speed.

Wait for the attack and observe. I don’t know how long you’ve been studying your art, but you have to get to the point where your awareness will be able to assist you.
The internal has very specific methods and principles that must be learned before you can use them against another martial artist correctly, other than that you’re kickboxing, which has nothing to do with the internal.

My 2 cent

Maoshan:D

[neilhytholt]

Peace

Wait for the attack and observe. I don’t know how long you’ve been studying your art, but you have to get to the point where your awareness will be able to assist you.
The internal has very specific methods and principles that must be learned before you can use them against another martial artist correctly, other than that you’re kickboxing, which has nothing to do with the internal.

My 2 cent

Maoshan:D

No, I haven't really much bagua specific fighting at all, so my 'level' is obviously quite low. I have done some sparring and drills with other fighters, and since I had no problems with them, I assumed (wrongly) that I would have no problems getting to the side and attacking anybody.

But it takes too long to get to the side with somebody like this. Hung-gar, taiji, MMA fighters, etc., are relatively slow.

But I have done no push-hands practices besides 'big wheel', so I've been looking for some description of those types of exercises in bagua or somebody who teaches them.

[TheHype112]

Well, I am a wing chun guy too; though, I can't say if I'm "good."

In my study of Bagua, I'm always comparing and contrasting the systems, and this is my takeaway on how to deal with YM-lineage WC using bagua tools: Hit or lift their root. Most WC guys I've met don't have a good understanding of their Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma stance, or if they do, it's standing only and not in motion. They're all hands and no body.

Also, you can steal their forward to have them give you the outside edge. I know you've expressed that it was hard to get there, that's why they've got to give it to you. Most YM guys I played with are good at re-orienting that center quickly, so if you keep trying to round the corner without them giving you a reason, you'll never get there.

And, if someone is backing up quickly, isn't that what long range kicks are for?

Please take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, I'm no expert, My bagua studies have been less than a year. WC for about 4 years.

[maoshan]

Peace

(But it takes too long to get to the side with somebody like this. Hung-gar, taiji, MMA fighters, etc., are relatively slow.

You really haven't seen the good stuff huh? Your talking about low level practitioners.

Also, what is "Big wheel"? ba-Gua has a variety of sensitivity methods, but I have never heard of that one. Maybe I know it by another name. Have you ever done any Ba-Gua combat drills?
One I just remembered while thinking of your encounter with the chain punchs, is a method from the Yin style that trains the bridge and develops speed. 2 face each other and begin to pierce at each others face using opposite hands while trying to over come the others bridge or beat him to the punch.
I don't know if you can see what I'm trying to describe, but it can deal most effectivly against the chain punches.

And back to your earlier statement about these other styles being to slow, understand something, no real martial art is slow, these styles were created for life and death situations. The issue is has the practitioner been learning correctly and how hard they train. In the internal, it will take you at lest 2-3yrs before you've even began to develop the true pre-requistes that allow you to use them effectivly. Forms and drills are not it, the slow meticulus, god kill me now, approuch, is the only way you'll find what it's all about.

Most ba-Gua schools concentrate on forms and not the real training methods that take you to real proficientcy. maybe because most are not willing to just walk the circle for 2-3yrs, but thats what it takes, other than that, it's superficial.


Peace

Maoshan

[neilhytholt]

Peace

(But it takes too long to get to the side with somebody like this. Hung-gar, taiji, MMA fighters, etc., are relatively slow.

You really haven't seen the good stuff huh? Your talking about low level practitioners.

Also, what is "Big wheel"? ba-Gua has a variety of sensitivity methods, but I have never heard of that one. Maybe I know it by another name. Have you ever done any Ba-Gua combat drills?

Maoshan

Big wheel is an exercise kindof like Hung-Gar 3-star blocking drills but instead of blocking each person touches one arm at the wrists while facing each other, and you go around in a wheel. One person moves the other person's arm, and the other person resists a little bit.

But yeah, I haven't seen any higher level bagua practitioners, I guess. :)

[jack]

I believe taiji, xingyi & bagua do have centre-line theory too. This old video file is showing a black man representing korea’s bagua association fighting in a sparring competition held in taiwan using a stroke called “black tiger snatching the heart” (黑虎掏心) to hit his opponent’s chest. It’s a kinda of centre-line hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NtYtASmJ_o&search=bagua

Although wing chun may be a good tcma but it’s definitely not going to be the only good tcma in the world. Well, I haven’t seen any wing chun practitioners won any ufc & k1 championships yet.

Actually, there were debates on the topics “whether could taiji, xingyi & bagua fight?” in mainland china too. Whether could taiji, xingyi & bagua fight? My answer is: Yes, they can fight. They can even fight with wing chun too. But it’s difficult to find good taiji, xingyi & bagua masters that are able to fight well cos most of them are lack of fighting experiments & stamina.

Both bagua & xingyi practitioners had seen taking part in sparring competitions held in taiwan & mainland china recently these few years before. But they have yet to achieve good result. So far, no taiji practitioners had been seen taking part in sparring competitions recently these few years yet.

Whenever they failed to achieve good results. They will start to come up with a pack of explanations such as:

1) They were not used of wearing gloves. But some sparring competitions allowed them to wear those gloves which don’t cover the fingers. I didn’t saw or heard them won any sparring competitions by wearing those kinda of gloves.

2) Tcma focus on killing the enemy at the shortest possible time. Whereby sparring competitions are just sparring competitions. It’s a points gaining system. But they seem to forget that there is a thing call KO in sparring competitions.

3) Tcma were allowed to kill the enemy by hitting the face, neck, head…& so on. But sparring competitions don’t allow that. We do have sparring competitions that allowed hitting the face, don’t we?

[neilhytholt]

Somehow it seems like maybe bagua or taiji as they are taught are not effective martial arts.

Perhaps Maoshan knows differently, but it seems like most of the people who say they fight with bagua or taiji when they actually go to fight just revert to regular kickboxing techniques. Why is that?

[count]

Somehow it seems like maybe bagua or taiji as they are taught are not effective martial arts.

Perhaps Maoshan knows differently, but it seems like most of the people who say they fight with bagua or taiji when they actually go to fight just revert to regular kickboxing techniques. Why is that?
You answered your own question. even if Maoshan already answered it. But it's not just how you're taught, it's how you train too.

Kind of silly to see this thread degenerate so quickly. From centerline theory to why can't bagua dominate the MMA scene in 12 steps.

Sure bagua uses centerline theory. But we try to think of it as 360 degrees. Try walking the circle and think about it for a while. ;)

[SPJ]

Count;

Just want to say hi and you have a very nice website.

:D

Response to the thread.

Centerline of Wing Chun.

The buddha sits in your heart. Your hands are protecting the heart. Your hands are from the center line. Everything is pushed outside of your shoulder line.

This is the main defense theory of WC.

while you push outward the opponent's arms, you also gain access to his inside.

It is too big a topic to lump Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Xing yi al together.

If you think WC covers the square in front of your chest and abdomen by positioning your hands in the centerline first.

Xing Yi has square, too. or all styles have centerline strategy, too.

San Ti posture, cover your vital area: chest and abdomen, including groin and knee etc.

For example, a typical posture of Xing Yi:

The forward hand is up in the "centerline" and not the midline of your chest/abdomen where Tang Zhong Xue lies.

There are several vital acupuncture points in the midline of the face, neck, chest and abdomen.

the rear hand is close to the forward hand's elbow. The two hands may switch roles and places. Your vital areas are covered.

This is similar to Zuan Quan posture.

--

:D

[RiceWine]

er...hi ya'll here's my two cents

bagua, yin style anyways, has center line attack vectors.

but it has various other vectors also. some hidden some open.

None of that really seems to matter really. They're kinda just theories until applied.

but you are right, bagua doesn't seem to be very effective and people resort back to kickboxing.

two reasons
1. lack of training
2. bagua is a style that kinda is formed around modular concepts of attack. Therefore, their natural movements might create a personal style of bagua that looks similar to kickboxing, although I doubt it.

[jack]

In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.

[RiceWine]

In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.

Iono if the word is there or not, but the concept is in there. Basic dragon in bagua has bridge. A key conponent is bridge or making sure all the body's alignments are correct to maximize body.

[blackmantis]

Hi everyone,

I practise Heibei Xingyiquan and Chen Ting Hua's Baguazhang. In my school of Xingyi, three of the five elements are performed along the centreline. Bagua on the other hand seems to change so fluidly that there is no real centreline.

I often spar with a friend who practises Leung Ting's Wing Tsun. As this school trains in striking down the centre, I have been forced to be able to deal with such attacks. I find that Xingyi's water element is particularly effective for nullifying the forward-moving punches. Xingyi's metal element and monkey palm is also great for chain punches.

An alternative Bagua method that I use to defend against WT is the drilling techniques (heaven palm type idea) and soft palm blocking from the waist.

What do you Bagua/Xingyi/Taiji guys use against centreline and external styles like Wing Tsun?

Thanks!

S

[Mo Ling]

in a good example, (which is often very hard to find) Chen Taijiquan for example is certainly a "centerline system". Understanding and mastery of many centerlines of the body and of the opponents body is of utmost importance. Unfortunately this level of instruction and skill is really.. reallly hard to find.

[RiceWine]

Hi everyone,

I practise Heibei Xingyiquan and Chen Ting Hua's Baguazhang. In my school of Xingyi, three of the five elements are performed along the centreline. Bagua on the other hand seems to change so fluidly that there is no real centreline.

I often spar with a friend who practises Leung Ting's Wing Tsun. As this school trains in striking down the centre, I have been forced to be able to deal with such attacks. I find that Xingyi's water element is particularly effective for nullifying the forward-moving punches. Xingyi's metal element and monkey palm is also great for chain punches.

An alternative Bagua method that I use to defend against WT is the drilling techniques (heaven palm type idea) and soft palm blocking from the waist.

What do you Bagua/Xingyi/Taiji guys use against centreline and external styles like Wing Tsun?

Thanks!

S

hm....lion raving dragon. j/k
haha =)

actually I have a question about Cheng style Ba gua.

What are the form names?

I'm starting dragon system of yin style and its like
<animal essence> <attack style> <primary animal>
<lion> <pushing> <dragon>

[count]

in a good example, (which is often very hard to find) Chen Taijiquan for example is certainly a "centerline system". Understanding and mastery of many centerlines of the body and of the opponents body is of utmost importance. Unfortunately this level of instruction and skill is really.. reallly hard to find.
I admit, good examples are hard to find, since it's such a general statement that systems are one thing or another or both. But wouldn't you agree that Chen tai chi is more of a sideways fighting system than say, Hsing-I? Or are you agreeing that centerline concept is more complex in bagua, Hsing-I or tai chi, than just a 2 dimensional line that runs up and down your opponents body?

[Crushing Fist]

well...

Tai Chi always strives to attack the "center"

and any attack must follow a "line"

so it could be said that there is a "centerline" theory of attack

however, this is different from what I have seen of things like WC which maybe would be better termed "front centerline" as they seem to enter from the front.

whatever angle the opponent is viewed from there is always a center, and it is this concept that is central to Taiji and Bagua. There is also the idea of "hiding one's center" to prevent it from being attacked.

I guess the big difference is the emphasis on striking versus throwing/pushing/pulling



on the topic of the thread

the way I deal with someone attacking my "centerline" is to move it.

I think Bagua is supremely adapted to this type of defense.

i.e. don't be there

[Fu-Pow]

I think in Taiji the goal is not to "guard" the centerline but actually bring the opponent in toward the centerline. When he arrives the centerline is no longer there. Its like he walked straight toward a revolving door, thought that he would hit the center post that the door revolves around but found himself on the other side...still on the outside of the door.

In order to do this you have to be able to relax and actually bring your opponent closer, all the time being aware of where he is at.

In Taiji you are never really "inside" you are always outside of the center.

[NeedsPractice]

I believe people misconstrue the centerline aspect of wing chun.
yes you attack the center but not necessarily straight on it can be attacked from an angle, also chain punching is pretty basic but for some reason people really like it or like to talk about it. I practice wing chun and other things as well
I would say versus tai chi or xing yi the man with better footwork and ability of his particular style should take it, wing chun just has some things that are very easy for someone of little skill to execute and get over on somebody by over whelming them that wont work so good on somebody of moderate ability.
Why is all the footwork of the wooden man ignored? OR the evasiveness it implies, or the redirection for when trying to dive right in doesnt work.

[Mo Ling]

Count:

"But wouldn't you agree that Chen tai chi is more of a sideways fighting system than say, Hsing-I?"

I dont know how to answer that because I am not really well versed enough in the workings of Xingyiquan to compare. Further, Taijiquan that I trained has sideways, straight, round, and all kinds of others methods of approach/attack. It depends on skill and preference of course.

"...Or are you agreeing that centerline concept is more complex in bagua, Hsing-I or tai chi, than just a 2 dimensional line that runs up and down your opponents body?"

Again, hard to compare without enough knowledge, I was not clear that this was the limit of the cneterline idea in something like wingchun?? If so, well yes Taijiquan centerline ideology is very complex. Basically Taijiquan, you guard, change, manipulate, fake, and attack many different levels, and "dimension" centerline. its plain physics really regarding centerline. I dont know that "centerline systems" are all that simple, but if they are, the simple ones are quite important to master as well in Taijiquan. This is why, regardless of which version of centerline we discuss, in my experience Taijiquan is still a very obvious and intended "centerline system".

[maoshan]

Peace All

After reading these post and giving it some thought, I realized that the centerline doesn’t apply to bagua in the same sense as you guys are seeing it. Ba-Gua attacks the side and back doors from our center. Using Xing-I as an example, it’s strikes are lined up with the nose or heart depending on the teacher, as they plow through you.
Ba-Gua’s core posture doesn’t line up that way at all. Power is derived from the waist while moving. The Yin style piercing palm moves through the center, but that’s with a foreward attack.
Moving makes the difference. On a straight line, Xing-I’s nose, foot and strike fall on the centerline as ya’ll call it. The same applies to Yin style Ba-Gua. Cheng style’s turning waist doesn’t allow for a standard centerline because it’s always changing.

(In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.)

Both Ba-Gua and Xing-I have the Bridge. The term Might be southern, but this method has always been apart of these arts. How else can you push an opponent and remain relaxed?

I’ve got more to write, but I’ve got to go.

Until next time

Peace

Maoshan