this is starting to bug me...

[monkeyfoot]

People

Right. Im posting with regards to schools that have a grading syllabus.

I started learning mantis 2 years ago. The set-up of our school is that grading comes every 3 months at first and then moves to 6+months depending on where abouts you are. Just before and after 'black sash' level its different and gradings are more spread apart.

This is fair enough, I dont mind gradings and that sort of set-up, we live in a society built upon similar ideologies. My first ever grade in mantis was fairly simple, I had to learn bung bo kuen, applications and some drills/partner work. Although underconfident in my ability, I passed and moved onto the next level.


Now I have been training for 2 years I have noticed a lot of things about gradings, the level of students and the understanding. I am becoming more and more ****ed off when I see people who are 'black sash' or 'high graders' doing forms with no understanding of stancework, breathing or theory behind it.

I feel disheartened sometimes when teachers throw around words like '5th degree blacksash' like this students super skilled, and then they perform a form with little or no understanding or what they are doing (this isnt a high handed opinion, just my observations). It seems to me that if you pay the money you pass. Yes there is a required level that you 'should be at' for each grading, but it seems to me that as long as you pay the money you will pass.

Which makes me wonder, if this is how its going to go, how watered down and rubbish will it get, its a vicious circle.

GOD ****IT
craig

[PangQuan]

that generally is how it works unfortunately.

at the school i attend you will rarely see anyone failed at a test, though it has happened before.

luckily, our black sash test sets the men apart from the boys.

its a 2 day test.

the first day is a non stop 10 mile run in mountain trails. if you stop even one mile short of the mark, you fail. thats day one.

day 2:

total review of all techniques, applications and forms.

then you fight 10 rounds with 30 push ups in between each round. no breaks. after those 10 rounds, you do 5 rounds of defense only against multiple opponents.

throw a 45 minute horse stance in there, and a match with the master, complete all that and you get your black sash. fail and you dont get it.

you cannot get certified by my teacher unless you truly are a certified bad ass.

sifu doesnt put someone up to test unless he plans on passing them. although you may go 3 years without testing. so thats why everyone passes. he watches you everyday you train there. he knows where you are at.

edit:

it takes roughly 8-10 years for you to get your black sash from sifu's school. no 1st 2nd or 3rd degree's either. originally he had no ranks at all. only the final test. now there are ranks to accomidate america.

[Chief Fox]

What about the people that get promoted but don't have a chance in he|| at actually defending them selves.

I know exactly what you're talking about. My last school was the same way. Some people are all about the black sash. Me, I want to know something indepth.

It's just like Mr. Miyagi said, Karate here, (pointing to his head) karate here, (pointing to his heart) karate never here (pointing to his belt).

Yeah I know, I'm a d0rk for quoting Mr. Miyagi but that one statement actually says a lot about martial arts in America today.

[PangQuan]

Dude.

Mr. Miyagi had infinite wisdom in his teachings. Nothing ****y about it.

[monkeyfoot]

I was talking to my partner about it. She basically said that its down to expectations. Some people are 45 and come to a kung fu lesson just to get a general workout, some are kids who think its Kewl, some are people who want a hobby.

In todays society teacher/organisations have to cater for all different kinds of people, from old to young, fat to thin, hobbiest to enthusiasts. Therefore the teacher has to set a level that attracts a wide variety of people, if its too hard the hobbiests and alike will quit.

I guess in the end of the day its whats best for marketing. Give people a belt/sash as a sense of achievement and they will keep coming.

Which is a **** shame for the few who actually want it to be strict and hardwork.

wong kiew kits book 'the art of shaolin kung fu' pretty much says about this topic.

craig

[Kymus]

Now I have been training for 2 years I have noticed a lot of things about gradings, the level of students and the understanding. I am becoming more and more ****ed off when I see people who are 'black sash' or 'high graders' doing forms with no understanding of stancework, breathing or theory behind it.

I feel disheartened sometimes when teachers throw around words like '5th degree blacksash' like this students super skilled, and then they perform a form with little or no understanding or what they are doing (this isnt a high handed opinion, just my observations). It seems to me that if you pay the money you pass. Yes there is a required level that you 'should be at' for each grading, but it seems to me that as long as you pay the money you will pass.

That's why my students don't see their second sash for generally 2 years. In maybe 6 months they can learn the material, but they have to perfect those movements before moving on.

An elder student should excell in both knowledge and form; not just the number of forms they know. If I had to choose between teaching privately with a small group of students and depending on a second job and having those guys perform how they should for their level, and having a good school with good income and plenty of students that have bad form but remember the stuff, I'll take the second job thanks.

[Kymus]

I was talking to my partner about it. She basically said that its down to expectations. Some people are 45 and come to a kung fu lesson just to get a general workout, some are kids who think its Kewl, some are people who want a hobby.

In todays society teacher/organisations have to cater for all different kinds of people, from old to young, fat to thin, hobbiest to enthusiasts. Therefore the teacher has to set a level that attracts a wide variety of people, if its too hard the hobbiests and alike will quit.


That's why I set up different curiculum's. I have the main one for the folks that really want to learn kung fu, and the women's self defense for the ladies that jsut want to learn how to defend themselves and get a good cardio workout in the process.

[Kymus]

that generally is how it works unfortunately.

at the school i attend you will rarely see anyone failed at a test, though it has happened before.

luckily, our black sash test sets the men apart from the boys.

its a 2 day test.

the first day is a non stop 10 mile run in mountain trails. if you stop even one mile short of the mark, you fail. thats day one.

day 2:

total review of all techniques, applications and forms.

then you fight 10 rounds with 30 push ups in between each round. no breaks. after those 10 rounds, you do 5 rounds of defense only against multiple opponents.

throw a 45 minute horse stance in there, and a match with the master, complete all that and you get your black sash. fail and you dont get it.

you cannot get certified by my teacher unless you truly are a certified bad ass.

sifu doesnt put someone up to test unless he plans on passing them. although you may go 3 years without testing. so thats why everyone passes. he watches you everyday you train there. he knows where you are at.

edit:

it takes roughly 8-10 years for you to get your black sash from sifu's school. no 1st 2nd or 3rd degree's either. originally he had no ranks at all. only the final test. now there are ranks to accomidate america.

Your Sifu is a *real* teacher IMHO. He follows the same ideology that I do: urinating blood and a kidney stone is more fun than testing mwahahahhaa

[neilhytholt]

It is disgusting when people don't know what they're doing and still get promotions.

But it's kindof a waste of time anyway to study a martial art for so long. If you're just learning for self defense, obviously you don't need to learn 18 weapons and all of that.

So martial arts school becomes kindof like SCA (society for creative anachronisms). Basically it's a place to do a hobby, right, that live a little fantasy that it's still around 300 years ago before reliable guns and all that.

So the martial arts school becomes a martial gym and fantasy land. So who cares if the guy's a 5th degree black sash, really? It matters not one iota. Why not let them dream their fantasy and pay the instructor some $$$?


I should also add that after looking around, and considering that you can actually get diseases from training (ringworm, herpes, etc.,) a lot of injuries, etc., (how many people do you meet getting injured in real fights on the street vs. injured in training), does it really make sense to study so hardcore and all that? Not really, right? Train so hardcore to be crippled at 60 doesn't really make much sense.

[SanHeChuan]

They usually prompt the test with a, "I all ready know they can do it so the test is just a formality." So when someone does poorly on a test they can just go back to that statement.

If you paid a testing fee, but didn't pass, would you ask for your money back?

If you tested someone who wasn't ready/able to pass what does that say about you as a teacher?

Plus if you failed them, they probably would be greatly discouraged, and might quit.

I'm OK with school just pushing people through the rainbow, but make them work for black. The only reason I think black should count for something is because if you go some where else with a black belt you get a whole lot more respect than any other grade.

I have a black belt from a completely different style from the school I'm at now, however they still allow me to wear it there and represent the school as a black belt while learning the curriculum. I get all the same courtesies as a black belt of their style.

But It really doesn't matter anyway, what color belt they wear. Except to public perception, but that is already so skewed by the media anyway.

Story time

A guy at my school went to Okinawa with his sensei to study with the grandmaster. The grandmaster saw the dude said he was good, had him do one form, and promoted him to black belt.

Sensei made him test again when they got back though. It was a fairly hard test, harder than mine at least. maybe two hours. Tired him out with sparring then he had to do every form. With pushups and stuff thrown it there to keep him tired. Nothing too hard core but it wasn't easy.

[neilhytholt]

IMHO the entire concept of belts and tests is kindof stupid. I mean, what matters is can you fight, nothing else.

If you consider the form is one person's interpretation of how to standardize the teaching of the movement of a technique, then making everybody do the form the same way is B.S. anyway.

What they should do is teach techniques suited to your fighting style, and then you can make up your own forms if you want to do solo practice.

[SanHeChuan]

I think time put in should count for something. Talent and ability is all and good, but there is something to be said for the wisdom (I use the term loosely) that comes from years put in. If nothing else you should respect thier dedication. And though we may not agree with it not every one is in it to kick some @$$.

I'm not against forms, but I don't think forms should be the main focus to the exclusion of other "skills".

I think ten empty hand and ten weapons forms is more than enough for a large system. Or if you want to go all chinese, 18 empty hand and 18 weapons forms. Not to say anything bad about the style but Choy li fut = 100+ forms, wow! More than I want.

But forms keep them coming back. And although I realize I don't need so many forms I still like to learn new ones. I think the trick is to ration out forms more slowly so that you can focus on the applications. Course then you have to keep them form getting bored.

I keep saying instead of belts people should just wear iced out chains with the number of years you've been training.

[Hard Fists]

MF,
Why don't you shop around a little. It might suck to start at a new school, but I would p!ssed off too in your situation. All schools aren't like that. You can find one that is pretty tough if you do a little research and check out a few classes. In my school, black sash doesn't come easily, you gotta be good. From what I've seen, my Sifu is pretty tough on grading when it comes to the sashes before black. It takes some people way more than 10 years...It'll probably take me more than that and I have a generally good skill level for someone that has only studied a couple of years.

[Hard Fists]

I should also add that after looking around, and considering that you can actually get diseases from training (ringworm, herpes, etc.,) a lot of injuries, etc., (how many people do you meet getting injured in real fights on the street vs. injured in training), does it really make sense to study so hardcore and all that? Not really, right? Train so hardcore to be crippled at 60 doesn't really make much sense.

You got herpes from training? What exactly were you doing that gave you herpes?

I always see old martial arts practioners in good health, not crippled when they're 60. You don't think exercise and conditioning is good for you?

[Ben Gash]

I do gradings, but I only put the students in when they're ready for it. They have to be able to do it right, I can't even conceive advancing a student when they can't do the basics. I understand the "different motivations" argument, but it's flawed. Draw parallels to things like music or art. If you play guitar because enjoy a bit of gentle strumming and a singalong to releive the days stress, they're not going to let you pass grade 8 are they? They're not going to give you an MA if you're painting's sh*t because "well, they're just doing it because it gives them time to think".

[monkeyfoot]

cheers for the replies people

I have thought about looking around for other schools, but I feel dedicated to my sifu so I dont want to drop. I think in the end gradings dont matter, I guess that if I make sure that I am at 'the required level' each time then its all good.....I guess I should stop worrying about others so much and crack on with my own journey.

craig

[Chief Fox]

IMHO the entire concept of belts and tests is kindof stupid. I mean, what matters is can you fight, nothing else.

If you consider the form is one person's interpretation of how to standardize the teaching of the movement of a technique, then making everybody do the form the same way is B.S. anyway.

What they should do is teach techniques suited to your fighting style, and then you can make up your own forms if you want to do solo practice.
I understand the concept of belts and sashes. Having a certain belt or sash should show that you know a certain amount of material or have achieved a certain fitness level and are ready to move on to more advanced material.

Charging for the tests is what really bothers me. At my old school we would have a testing day every 6 weeks. You didn't have to test if you didn't want to but anywhere from 5 to 15 people would be testing at a time. Each of them pays $40 and everyone would pass. IMHO belts, sashes and tesing is ok, it gives people goals and sets a ranking order in a school but if it cost more than the price of the belt then something is wrong.

[neilhytholt]

I understand the concept of belts and sashes. Having a certain belt or sash should show that you know a certain amount of material or have achieved a certain fitness level and are ready to move on to more advanced material.

Charging for the tests is what really bothers me. At my old school we would have a testing day every 6 weeks. You didn't have to test if you didn't want to but anywhere from 5 to 15 people would be testing at a time. Each of them pays $40 and everyone would pass. IMHO belts, sashes and tesing is ok, it gives people goals and sets a ranking order in a school but if it cost more than the price of the belt then something is wrong.

Well, most MA schools out there are businesses, right? So they probably try to get every bit of $$$ they can. Testing usually requires senior instructor time, so I guess you pay for that time.

[Ray Pina]

I say forget the belts and forms .... what can you do?

Only BJJ has a respectable belt system, and that's because it means something. Most kung fu black sash's are complete marshmallows.

[PangQuan]

the belt system only matters as much as the teacher implimenting it.

school a has a black belt thats has practiced for 2 years and recieved the belt, knowing the basics and some forms, but over all, not really a bb.

school b has a black belt that has practiced for 10 years and recieved the belt. knowing all of the basics to correct form and has solidified all of their material. a good bb.


you just have to not be an idiot when you choose where to train.

take everything in stride, practice for yourself alone. no matter what if you practice because in your heart you love your art, then it doesnt matter if there is a rank system or not.


in todays society we dont even need martial arts. you dont HAVE to compete, RARELY will one NEED to fight. you can go to a boxing gym get some basics and be ok.

If you really want TRUE self defense in TODAYs society, go get a license, a permit, a concealed weapons permit, and a gun. then your all good.

people that practice martial arts, unless for military or police purpose, do so because they like it. NOT because they NEED to.

so why not practice weapons? give me a sturdy stick and i can break your bones. thats why i practice weapons. Not because i need to, but because i LIKE it. Same reason why YOU practice martial arts.


I dont buy the whole "i practice martial arts for self defense only" thats a sham.

you practice martial arts because you like it.

people who only want self defense go buy a shotty or a glock. thats what the average american does.

you like to be in shape, you like the hard work, you like to learn control over others, and how to hurt them and likewise defend yourself.

people may start martial arts with the idea of self defense, but if they stick with it, thier motive quickly will change.

[WinterPalm]

Everyday is a test. Every class is a test. Every moment is a test. If you are training to survive an encounter, that will happen at any time and at any place, than a formalized, this day, this time type of test does not make sense. As a martial artist you must be prepared at all times and be on the ball always. This method of testing, which is no real test, shows one's true character, one's ability, and one's knowledge. I've never had a formalized test for any sash including a Black Sash, but I know that I am being watched when I do something well, when I don't do something well, and when I grasp or do not grasp something. It is who you are and what you are that makes any rank worth having.
I don't have anything against formalized testing to make sure one is covering the material and understands it, but everyday is a test as you handle and deal with the obstacles that present themselves.

[neilhytholt]

Everyday is a test. Every class is a test. Every moment is a test. If you are training to survive an encounter, that will happen at any time and at any place, than a formalized, this day, this time type of test does not make sense. As a martial artist you must be prepared at all times and be on the ball always. This method of testing, which is no real test, shows one's true character, one's ability, and one's knowledge. I've never had a formalized test for any sash including a Black Sash, but I know that I am being watched when I do something well, when I don't do something well, and when I grasp or do not grasp something. It is who you are and what you are that makes any rank worth having.
I don't have anything against formalized testing to make sure one is covering the material and understands it, but everyday is a test as you handle and deal with the obstacles that present themselves.

Yeah, I was on some forum somewhere and some RBSD sensei said he used to surprise his students by attacking them at odd moments at random, like when they were changing and had their pants down, he'd charge at them with a knife and stuff.

That's more of a test than a belt test.

[SanHeChuan]

neilhytholt
Yeah, I was on some forum somewhere and some RBSD sensei said he used to surprise his students by attacking them at odd moments at random, like when they were changing and had their pants down, he'd charge at them with a knife and stuff.

I would have Choked him out...
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With my pants! ;)