What is a Master?

[drleungjohn]

Hello all-I rarely post-but since this is a BIG issue around all styles and systems of Martial Arts-what is a Master ? What makes a Master? Who decides if they are a Master?






Dr John Crescione

[Kapten Klutz]

I'm a bit like the blind man describing the elephant, but my experience of a master is like this:

Someone who can totally control you and make you bounce off the walls without actually hurting you. Someone who makes you feel the power they are holding back to where it's almost scary, yet who you are less likely to be injured by than by other beginners. Somone who makes you feel like you were hit by a freight train with a giant pillow in front of it and who you can't hit back no matter how hard you try. Someone you can look up to and whose lessons feel safer than lessons held by lesser teachers. Someone who makes you want to do nothing else but train.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

well i think that magazines and celebrities usually label who they believe to be a master or not, and they usually don't deny the famous experts their label for fear of losing credibility.

who is really a master?
if he's mastered the most important aspects of self defence... he won't be "famous" or popular" or recognisable as a martial artist to the average person :o

it's not easy to find a master, but it's easy to find someone who certainly isn't

[Ernie]

there is no such thing it's a ridicules title to feed ego and marketing , just like silk PJ's , belts and slippers , disciples , secrets , in door , all just pure bull$hit to feed the sick little twisted fantasy people love to pay for :rolleyes:

there are allot of lonely sheep seeking acceptance and plenty of wolves to give them what they want through smoke and mirrors and a history lesson ;)

if you must seek a master ,, become the master of your own inadequacies instead of looking out side yourself and placing the responsibility in someone Else's hands

there are plenty of skilled people that have walked ahead of you that can offer ''some'' assistance . but to put a ''crown '' on there head and bow down to them so they can toss you your next bone ,,,,,,,, is just stupid :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

As you can see, everyone has a different view on this and interpets differing meanings to the term 'Master'. So, I say, sort it out yourself.

Personally, since I am not a slave, the term 'Master' is reserved for someone who excells at his/her chosen trade. In most cases, this means the person has quantities of experience and has undergone rigorous testing by a qualified agency. In the case of MA, it is relative to the art and is completely arbitrary.

So, I would say, that one can "Master" WC, Capoiera, MT, TKD, etc. but that doesn't mean that person has mastered fighting.

So, your other questions...

What makes a master? The (near) complete understanding of an art, trade or discipline.

Who decides? That is the real question isn't it? IMHO, you do.

[sihing]

I think the problem with the term is what the Media has attached to it. When people hear the word "Master" when concerned with Martial Arts, they usually think of some invincible grey haired, wise old (but young inside) man, capable of handling all sorts of combat situations without breaking a sweat. This is the way of things in our society today, the media sets the pace, and unless you are a really free thinker, people believe everything they see, hear or read from the various media sources.

I'd rather use the words "highly skilled" or "high understanding" to describe someone with a reputation in WC to others, than the word Master or some other word that produces a symbol of perfection. Perfection is impossible to achieve, although I think in practice we should strive to be a perfect as possible when concerned with individual movement and when practicing on our own (forms, shadow boxing, visualization, etc..basic mechanics). When working with others during harder skill challenge excersises we have to adapt to the situation, or let the opponent/partner tell us what to do, so only the person reacting knows exactly what the proper movement is at that point in time (that is when he has a thorough understanding both physically and mentally of WC.)

Just my Loonies worth..:D

James

[Tom Kagan]

It depends on the context. If you look up the definition of the word: "master," this is about what you will find:

1. One that has control over another or others.
2.

1. The owner or keeper of an animal: The dog ran toward its master.
2. The owner of a slave.
3. One who has control over or ownership of something: the master of a large tea plantation.
4. The captain of a merchant ship. Also called master mariner.
5. An employer.
6. The man who serves as the head of a household.
7. One who defeats another; a victor.
8.

1. One whose teachings or doctrines are accepted by followers.
2. Master Christianity. Jesus.
9. A male teacher, schoolmaster, or tutor.
10. One who holds a master's degree.
11.

1. An artist or performer of great and exemplary skill.
2. An old master.
12. A worker qualified to teach apprentices and carry on the craft independently.
13. An expert: a master of three languages.
14. Abbr. M.

1. Used formerly as a title for a man holding a naval office ranking next below a lieutenant on a warship.
2. Used as a title for a man who serves as the head or presiding officer of certain societies, clubs, orders, or institutions.
3. Chiefly British. Used as a title for any of various male law court officers.
4. Master Used as a title for any of various male officers having specified duties concerning the management of the British royal household.
5. Master Used as a courtesy title before the given or full name of a boy not considered old enough to be addressed as Mister.
6. Archaic. Used as a form of address for a man; mister.
15. Master A man who owns a pack of hounds or is the chief officer of a hunt.
16. An original, such as an original document or audio recording, from which copies can be made.



IMHO, there is a misunderstanding between the eastern connotation of the term "master" and the western connotation of the same word. Whenever I've spoken to older Chinese born persons about it, their initial connotations of the word "master" has never been towards the "skill" side of the above definitions.

So, if you want to pair the word's context in "Kung Fu Master" with the perspective that this term comes from a chinese translation, then it would be fair to use something like #5 and/or #9 (and possibly #1) from the above list of definitions. If this is the case, then all "master" means is that a person has students. Thus, using the term "master", as a title for a Kung Fu teacher, speaks nothing of the person's skill regarding the subject matter.

[sihing]

It depends on the context. If you look up the definition of the word: "master," this is about what you will find:

1. One that has control over another or others.
2.

1. The owner or keeper of an animal: The dog ran toward its master.
2. The owner of a slave.
3. One who has control over or ownership of something: the master of a large tea plantation.
4. The captain of a merchant ship. Also called master mariner.
5. An employer.
6. The man who serves as the head of a household.
7. One who defeats another; a victor.
8.

1. One whose teachings or doctrines are accepted by followers.
2. Master Christianity. Jesus.
9. A male teacher, schoolmaster, or tutor.
10. One who holds a master's degree.
11.

1. An artist or performer of great and exemplary skill.
2. An old master.
12. A worker qualified to teach apprentices and carry on the craft independently.
13. An expert: a master of three languages.
14. Abbr. M.

1. Used formerly as a title for a man holding a naval office ranking next below a lieutenant on a warship.
2. Used as a title for a man who serves as the head or presiding officer of certain societies, clubs, orders, or institutions.
3. Chiefly British. Used as a title for any of various male law court officers.
4. Master Used as a title for any of various male officers having specified duties concerning the management of the British royal household.
5. Master Used as a courtesy title before the given or full name of a boy not considered old enough to be addressed as Mister.
6. Archaic. Used as a form of address for a man; mister.
15. Master A man who owns a pack of hounds or is the chief officer of a hunt.
16. An original, such as an original document or audio recording, from which copies can be made.



IMHO, there is a misunderstanding between the eastern connotation of the term "master" and the western connotation of the same word. Whenever I've spoken to older Chinese born persons about it, their initial connotations of the word "master" has never been towards the "skill" side of the above definitions.

So, if you want to pair the word's context in "Kung Fu Master" with the perspective that this term comes from a chinese translation, then it would be fair to use something like #5 and/or #9 (and possibly #1) from the above list of definitions. If this is the case, then all "master" means is that a person has students. Thus, using the term "master", as a title for a Kung Fu teacher, speaks nothing of the person's skill regarding the subject matter.

Again, the literal meanings given from a dictionary are probably different from what the majority of people think when the word is related to the Martial Arts . If the word was really used for what it meant in the proper context, then we wouldn't be having this discussion because it would not be a big deal, but people are people and will have you think what they want you to think....So I agree that there is a MISUNDERSTANDING happening here concern what the word "Master" really means concerning particular Martial Artists with high level skill development.


James

[Buddha_Fist]

Hello all-I rarely post-but since this is a BIG issue around all styles and systems of Martial Arts-what is a Master ? What makes a Master? Who decides if they are a Master?

Dr John Crescione


I AM A MASTER. You can start sending me monthly checks (PM me for the exact amount) and have a Bai-Si ceremony with me on say..... hmmmmm... next Saturday. You'll have to cover though all expenses and bow three times before drinking the special milk-shake I'll be preparing....

:D


Did Rocky Graziano call Cus D'Amato master? Why the heck do you need such a term? Respect is earned through actions, and should always be reciprocal.

[fiamacho]

You become a Master when you have trained for 18 months, received a plaque at a special ceremony which states that you have been Accepted as the ONLY EVER CLOSED DOOR disciple and you are willing to shell out $$$ when you "purchase" a franchise.

Plus you must posess the ability to make 3 different types of Latte.

[anerlich]

I like definition #12 and #9 from the above list.

I always preferred the title "Chief Majestic Grand Exalted Poo-bah" myself.

[sihing]

I AM A MASTER. You can start sending me monthly checks (PM me for the exact amount) and have a Bai-Si ceremony with me on say..... hmmmmm... next Saturday. You'll have to cover though all expenses and bow three times before drinking the special milk-shake I'll be preparing....

:D


Did Rocky Graziano call Cus D'Amato master? Why the heck do you need such a term? Respect is earned through actions, and should always be reciprocal.

I believe this also, it is through one's actions that one is shown respect, not from a title they give themselves. When a Martial Artist introduces himself as this or that title (Sifu, Master, Grand poo bah), the radar is up for sure in my book..

James

[Matrix]

I think there was a thread on this topic in the past, and if I rememebr correctly I said something along the lines of .........................

If we start with example number 13

13. An expert: a master of three languages.

and change the context to:

13. An expert: a master of putting bait on fishing hooks.

What do you have??? ;)

[AmanuJRY]

I think there was a thread on this topic in the past, and if I rememebr correctly I said something along the lines of .........................

If we start with example number 13

13. An expert: a master of three languages.

and change the context to:

13. An expert: a master of putting bait on fishing hooks.

What do you have??? ;)

Yes, yes....I remember that thread. :D :D :D

[Liddel]

Most posts here i agree with in regards to the marketing aspects of self titled masters. My view is that this is a more modern version of the term.
Basically its turned to $-it. :D

However just to point out that 'back in the day' the traditional view of a 'master' wasnt just related to kung fu.

Most Kung Fu masters of the older generations had a few sifu's themselves like my master.

One for Kung Fu, One for chinesse medicine, and one for Caligraphy.

Those that reached high levels in each area were considered 'Masters', and interestingly they are all interelated, when you learn to hurt someone you also learn how to heal, and Caligraphy serves to refine control and concentration similar to meditaition. :rolleyes:

The sad thing is that with modern life one barely has the time to become highly skilled at just one of these endeavours, which has ended up erroding the term and in most cases the marketing machine has Ba$tardi$ed its validity. :mad:

[reneritchie]

There are probably more than three meanings, but these are how it's commonly used:

1) As an honorific for a highly skilled craftsman. A master carpenter or mechanic, a master martial artist or chef. This is close to the generic meaning of 'sifu'. However, no one should refer to themselves by this term. Just like you wouldn't expect your mechanic to tell you to call him 'Master Pete'. The student is the apprentice in this scenario.

2) As a dodgy reference to a master who wants to control or otherwise dominate others in a master/slave sense. Unfortunately, every industry is plagued by petty tyrants, whether it's in Dilbert's office, or the Cobra Kai dojo.

3) As a marketing term. If the guy or gal down the street is a teacher, and you call yourself a master, someone who doesn't know the real system will see you in the phonebook and think you're better. Then if the other guy upgrades to master, of course, you have to upgrade to grandmaster. (Some have gone so far as to use South East Asian words for 'God' as their titles to seem like the really grandy grand grandsman.

[sihing]

I believe using the term Master to describe someone like a chef or carpenter is applicable because with these crafts the person using it (the chef preparing dinner for example) has total control of their environment and circumstances. The Martial Artist, using it for what it was meant for FIGHTING, does not have this luxury. Yes, they may have a sort of Mastery of the skills when it comes to how they perform the movements solo with no pressure or within the relem of training, but that still does not mean they can perform and use those skills against a real attacker, with a great precision. Even Ali got hit, and he was a very skilled with his offensive and defensive boxing skills as compared to most of his opponents from that era..

James

[Vajramusti]

Tom Kagan had it fairly right- what about 16 different dictionary definitions.
Contexts have a lot to do with meanings in communication.
So "master" can have many meanings and meanings can differ by context.

Often in earlier CMA days (post WW2) sans hoopla - it was simply used interchangeably for someone's teacher.

If you use it as a title- check and clarify the context-title given how when and why?
Master of Balliol colllege? Head of a privare school.? Certain kinds of naval office holders? A certificate froma medieval type of a guild?

Its often pointless to argue definitions. Just figure out how someone is using the term and discuss substance or subject if necessary.

And in wing chun there is no papacy- so there are sometimes puffed up titles and handles that dont have much wide meaning outside of one's reference group.,

So= what's the beef?

joy chaudhuri

[stricker]

reneritchies number 1 i think is cool. ive met a few people ive thought **** they really are a master of their art and id have no problem calling them that. but i aint ever gonna call ANYBODY master like number 2. nor 3. screw that! sure someones your teacher instructor coach or whatever but there still a human being same as you and me and everybody deserves the same level of respect as individuals

[Liddel]

Words are just human sounds to convey meanings and emotion, i mean what ever the individuals POV is, that's using the word ( in thier context ) that is its meaning.

If you find a teacher that you really think 'has the skills to pay the bills' you may just think yeah, they are a master.

To me, it does seem like its dependent on -
1) context - like mentioned earlier, and or
2) POV - someone may seem like a master because they know so much more
than you :rolleyes:

Also the use of the word IMO is like respect - i can never be demanded, it can only be earnt. Just because you demand to be called "master of almightyness" doesnt mean you are, even if the pope himself calls you this.

Im curious - for those people that out and out refuse to use the term, do you guys call your Kung Fu teacher - Sifu ? because after all isnt this just another way of calling them master ? :rolleyes:

[fiamacho]

Most posts here i agree with in regards to the marketing aspects of self titled masters. My view is that this is a more modern version of the term.
Basically its turned to $-it. :D

The sad thing is that with modern life one barely has the time to become highly skilled at just one of these endeavours, which has ended up erroding the term and in most cases the marketing machine has Ba$tardi$ed its validity. :mad:

Exactly I totally agree 100% with these points ... it has become extremely disappointing.

[drleungjohn]

"Im curious - for those people that out and out refuse to use the term, do you guys call your Kung Fu teacher - Sifu ? because after all isnt this just another way of calling them master ?"

Actually,I don't see sifu equaling Master-the term for sifu-"teacher-father" doesn't imply "Master=Perfect=Supreme Being"

And in Martial Arts,that's what the people who use that title imply-